EPTBW Power Rank: October 2018 - Page 2
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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TT1
Canada10011 Posts
On October 11 2018 16:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: obviously PvZ would be solved if they used TT1's Dark Archon style haha :D snow actually does this 1 sair into DA build after he goes gate exp and scouts the z going ~4/5 hatch before lair, its pretty cool but yea i think DAs are severely underused tbh, even pro p's aren't able to keep up with muta hydra tech switches, seems like only Bisu was able to harass with sairs all game and keep them alive | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1656 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Dude it's called October (2018) power rankings, not all time greats. Effort' performance from 1 year ago is irrelevant. Would you like to have Nada, iloveoov, Savior and the rest of the "actual champions" on here too? Recent results are exactly what this is about. On October 11 2018 08:18 ShowTheLights wrote:LMAO Rain under Action and MiniTrash rankings, even with Rain's loss in RO8 Rain's aka Mr "I play PvZ like Bisu" asl win was many moons ago, he got trashed by effort and jd this past month. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
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iopq
United States1001 Posts
On October 11 2018 17:13 JieXian wrote: What are some of you complaining about? Recency bias? Tournament results from a year ago? Dude it's called October (2018) power rankings, not all time greats. Effort' performance from 1 year ago is irrelevant. Would you like to have Nada, iloveoov, Savior and the rest of the "actual champions" on here too? Recent results are exactly what this is about. Winning 10-15 games in the last month doesn't make someone a top 5 player, the sample size is too little. Otherwise Shine was the best Zerg that time he made it to the finals. People forget that EVEN FLASH loses like 30% of his games vs. good pros like Larva Let's say you have them face off in a tournament finals BO5. 2.7% of the time Larva wins 3-0 5.67% of the time Larva wins 3-1 7.938% of the time Larva wins 3-2 18.522% of the time Flash wins 3-2 30.87% of the time Flash wins 3-1 34.3% of the time Flash wins 3-0 this means that just based on their spon record, you'd expect Larva to STILL win more than 16% of the time just based on strategy choice or whatever but of course if Larva won people would be like OMG he's the best player now | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
So to review objectively: * Both players advanced 2-0 * Effort was #3 in Sponmatches while Action is #7 * Effort has far more pedigree on any time scale (not always important for PRs, but when it's close, this is often a tiebreaker, and in fact is cited as such in Flash vs Last ranking) * Effort is simply a better player (one litmus test: gun to head, pick between Effort and Action for a game, a BO5, a ladder season, whatever, 90-100% of rational people are picking Effort). Also not always important for PRs, but also is in fact cited in Flash vs Last ranking) Where the bias likely comes in: * Action gets bonus points for 2-0ing a group with JD and Flash only he didn't even play Flash. JD also blew that game (had JD won, Action is likely out since he has to play Flash next, in which case he's not even on the PR). In fairness, Action played very well to make it possible for JD to make that mistake. * Action gets bonus points for his awesome strategy against Light. Partly deserved, but also perhaps masks his true talent level in ZvT. * Action gets bonus points for playing tons of games. Partly deserved, but likely chosen more because it fits the narrative than because raw number of games played is consistently applied as a criteria. * Action gets bonus points because it's exciting when someone surprises us. * Effort gets negative points because he's been a "choker", a nebulous concept that mostly disregards sample sizes, the fact that the games Effort was eliminated in in ASL are almost all spectacular games where his opponent played amazingly (seriously go back and rewatch them), is an application of events that happened a long time ago (citing this because people are saying "it's a recent times PR"), and ignores how players like Action can't choke because they're not going anywhere in tournaments and aren't considered good enough to choke. Power rankings can and should have subjectivity. But I think the people calling out this choice for being especially questionable are spot on. I actually really like Action as a player and always have. Just calling it like I see it. | ||
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Kurao
215 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
He's an OSL champion pulling off one of the greatest OSL finals of all time (and is the last player to beat Flash in a final). He played at 60% all matchups in the Kespa days. He's clearly one of the most skilled players. His A+ game is as good as anyone else in the world. Problem for Effort is Flash fans don't like him (though I'm an exception as I'm a huge Flash fan, but Effort's always been my favorite Zerg) because of the OSL. Jaedong fans don't like him because he semi-threatens Jaedong's status. Bisu fans don't like him for whatever reason. Weirdly, even Effort's 4-1 of Flash not too long ago, in an offline event that players actually kind of cared about, manages to get glossed over. If anyone else did that we'd never hear the end of it. Ironically it feels like since Effort has beaten Flash before it somehow cancels out the credit he gets for that series. Effort might be the most underrated player in recent history. He's not at the TBLS tier of status, but skillwise he's been right there for a long time. Effort and Mind are the only OSL/MSL champions outside of TBLS that are still active today (I guess Calm plays now and then but he's barely had a presence on the modern scene). And Effort had a far better overall career than Mind. | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1656 Posts
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GTR
51497 Posts
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow ) is just straight out wrong. JULYZERG!! 3 OSL & first Z to take the Golden Mouse makes you on that list Being an old July fan I just had to say it. Most people have forgotten July :-/ Edit* Not intention to derail the thread. This PR-list is good. Sad to see the JD-drop but it was expected... Also I like Mini getting some attention high up. And reasoning for putting Flash over Last. And someone should stop this meaningless "Action or Effort in what spot" discussion lol They are both close in form and it comes Down to the details. If someone can't handle Action being above, then wait for the Ro8 vs Shuttle and see how he perform. They (Effort - Action) are neck and neck atm. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong. From my short conversations with the guy, it seems he bases everything on the eye test purely from EffOrt's on-form games in match-ups he enjoys watching (meaning result oriented assessment is utterly ignored). I do think there is an argument to be had that if you ignore certain match-ups and concentrate solely on EffOrt's finest moments from his preferred match-ups, he did reach a higher level of a particular style of gaming than any zerg that ever existed. It is the kind of assessment that excludes old school players such as YellOw, and is more of a statement of who can compare with EffOrt when he is on-form, motivated enough, playing his preferred match-ups, and in sync with the the meta-game. Basically, it seems to me that it is a statement of appreciation for how a player satisfied one's personal aesthetic taste for the game, just like how some people enjoy how Bisu finest multi-tasking moments make him look like a god, or how sAviOr seemed to have his opposition in the palm of his hands during his prime, and should be considered separately from what they actually achieved with their skillsets. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19298 Posts
On October 11 2018 22:44 Letmelose wrote: From my short conversations with the guy, it seems he bases everything on the eye test purely from EffOrt's on-form games in match-ups he enjoys watching (meaning result oriented assessment is utterly ignored). I do think there is an argument to be had that if you ignore certain match-ups and concentrate solely on EffOrt's finest moments from his preferred match-ups, he did reach a higher level of a particular style of gaming than any zerg that ever existed. It is the kind of assessment that excludes old school players such as YellOw, and is more of a statement of who can compare with EffOrt when he is on-form, motivated enough, playing his preferred match-ups, and in sync with the the meta-game. Basically, it seems to me that it is a statement of appreciation for how a player satisfied one's personal aesthetic taste for the game, just like how some people enjoy how Bisu finest multi-tasking moments make him look like a god, or how sAviOr seemed to have his opposition in the palm of his hands during his prime, and should be considered separately from what they actually achieved with their skillsets. With that criteria, the Greatest of All time in all 3 races: Effort (your pick based on above statement), Jangbi, and Flash? Regarding Zerg: I still think you can argue Jaedong's peak form over Effort Regarding Terran: I think there could be some good arguments made for Nada and iloveoov. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 12 2018 01:33 BisuDagger wrote: With that criteria, the Greatest of All time in all 3 races: Effort (your pick based on above statement), Jangbi, and Flash? Regarding Zerg: I still think you can argue Jaedong's peak form over Effort Regarding Terran: I think there could be some good arguments made for Nada and iloveoov. With the name of the game being the absolute best in terms of pure gaming ability, all past names, including JangBi, would become defunct from the conversation due to the advancements in the meta-game. This is something Flash has said multiple times during his stream. He is confident of beating his 2010 self, not because he is at his sharpest in terms of mechanics, but because he knows more about the game now. With that being said, Flash also said that his 2010 self would absolutely destory his current self, if his old self was given time to absorb the new information after being exposed to it from his future self. After a certain point with this way of thought, we would be discussing alternate timelines (stuff like Flash of 2010 learning strategy from 2018 while maintaining his mechanics and drive) that has no relevance in this world, except for the fact that some of the alternate realities would have results and perceptions people prefer over what actually happened. I strongly believe that the only match-up the old version of Jaedong would be superior to EffOrt as of now would be zerg-versus-zerg, because it is by far the least strategically demanding match-up, and is mostly dependent on micro-managament. In the same vein, numerous amateur players would easily bitch slap iloveoov at the peak of his competitive prowess in standard macro-games, due to how far the game has progressed. It is a thought experiment designed specifically to ignore the past and focus everything on the now. The average professor of theoretical physics has a greater understanding of the universe than Isaac Newton, is he a "better" physicist? In some senses, yes, but it is a disingenuous method of going about things in my opinion. I personally don't rate a player's ability to satisfy a certain game aesthetic over competitive results. Canata was many times over superior to BoxeR in standard orthodox games in 2005, but was lacking in so many other departments as a competitor that he was busy failing to qualify for all the individual leagues he attended, while BoxeR started from the same starting place(offline qualifiers) as Canata, and battled his way through the finals playing what was thought to be by far his weakest match-up of terran-versus-protoss versus the likes of Reach, PuSan, and Anytime (some of the finest protoss players of that era). A connoisseur of the game with a deep appreciation of the standard macro-game might still rate Canata as the "better" player, but results are results. There is no point in having competition if all you are going to do is ignore everything that happened due to it not aligning with your perception of how things should be, and conjure a reality where the standards you personally have are all that matters when assessing a player. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
This is why JD is making more lings right now, because his hatchery isn't going up at all. If JD took the 3rd hatchery, he could have actually won the game despite everything" Man do I feel silly now for hammering on JD and saying that he just chooses a strat and mindlessly keeps going at it for better or worse, just goes to show that in each and every game at this level, there will be things that we plebs don't spot at all. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10232 Posts
You guys keep bringing up the past, but the truth is the past does not weigh much in a MONTHLY power rank. Sure, I’ll talk about tournaments that happen a few months ago (danjjing and kal), but effort being an OSL champ means nothing right now. If I have to give Effort a higher spot due to his OSL win, then FlaSh would never leave the #1 spot because I have to take his 3 OSL MSL ASL into account. And then the rankings would just be boring. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19298 Posts
On October 12 2018 02:43 IshinShishi wrote: Flash : "This was a surprise, but it was another easy hold. But look right now, here is the critical mechanical mistake that almost cost me the game. I accidentally stopped repairing bunker and moved SCV forward away from bunker! Ok who saw that now? (Replays the video) I actually cursed, not verbally but I actually said AH FUCK in my head the moment I did this. I never curse and my mouth is usually very clean. Very rare that I say it even in head. But the god play I made here was that I was paying attention to the vultures out on the map while JD was attacking my natural. Observer not catching it on the screen but if you look at the minimap, I cut drones going out to build 3rd gas hatchery 2 more times while defending vs hydralisks. I won because of that despite the messup at the bunker.(Viewer says Effort made a comment about that during game) Wait, he noticed that? This is why JD is making more lings right now, because his hatchery isn't going up at all. If JD took the 3rd hatchery, he could have actually won the game despite everything" Man do I feel silly now for hammering on JD and saying that he just chooses a strat and mindlessly keeps going at it for better or worse, just goes to show that in each and every game at this level, there will be things that we plebs don't spot at all. This is an example of why watching the minimap is so critical. Sometimes when I solo cast I spend 80% of my time just staring at the box at the bottom left. Even observers miss key moments. For example, in Rain versus Effort Artosis spotted the a cluster of Effort's units disappear purely on the minimap because the observer was focused on the DT movement. During that JD vs Flash game, I kept thinking Jaedong is really far ahead and all he needs to do is lightly contain the natural and expand. At the point I stayed focused on the minimap and remember being so frustrated that he was unable to take his extra base to get ahead. Unfortunately Flash closed that timing gap for an eco advantage quickly and Jaedong made critical mistakes in over committing his hydras to try and take the CC out. | ||
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