EPTZOTAC Larva/Legend Incident Discussion - Page 15
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 06 2017 05:27 tanngard wrote: Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series. I mean kind of... yeah. The only entertaining part was for the novelty of seeing one of the best in the world play someone that is not a professional player. The games weren't close, as soon as Larva's macro advantage kicked in during the mid-game it was a massacre. That novelty wears off pretty quick though and then you're just left wondering why anyone would even organize a showmatch between players of such skill disparities. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 06 2017 07:46 BlackJack wrote: I mean kind of... yeah. The only entertaining part was for the novelty of seeing one of the best in the world play someone that is not a professional player. The games weren't close, as soon as Larva's macro advantage kicked in during the mid-game it was a massacre. That novelty wears off pretty quick though and then you're just left wondering why anyone would even organize a showmatch between players of such skill disparities. Well i can agree on some of that. It seems that some of these organizations believe that the skillgap between koreans and the rest is comparaple to what was true for sc2. And when you add to that the fact that players like Legend and Draco has not been active for 6-7 years, it makes the idea of upsets or having just good games pretty darn hopeless. At least if was better to have a korean for showmatches and not the actual tournament like they did with ESL in Italy. Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event.. | ||
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Invidentia
Denmark30 Posts
On December 05 2017 23:52 tanngard wrote: I did not say that BM should be acceptable only when done where there was an initial provokation, so congratulations on missing my point. I said that when it is intented to hurt someone, there needs to a warrant for it unless that someone want to appear as a complete douchebag. You have to see this from Legends perspective too. You cannot expect him to be cool with travelling half across the world to what he thought would be an event where he could show of some (relative) skill, have a "good time" and represent his country, to be ultimately made into the laughing stock by some dude he dont even know socially. And to your original response to me: We should agree to disagree on what excactly? That there are social contexts to when its acceptable or even welcomed to make fun of someone else? And what is it about Legends response that you take issue with excactly? You dont have an understanding for him returning the favour? And to your point of me taking a "moral highground" doesnt amount to much, because people are split on the issue of larvas transgressions. What you are missing here is that i talked about civil behaviour as a counter argument against those that are claiming here that the goal of gathering attention, justify the means of disrespecting someone else. But even so, i think its ill adviced for a lot of people here to add there own standards unto someone else. Usually when someone feels trampled on in life, they have good reason to feel thats the case, even if people who cannot understand them from the inside like to claim otherwise. We could talk about, how larvas actions was not intended to hurt anyone, like i just wrote in my last comment, but i dont like repeating myself. Yes I did imagine that might be returned onto me. What you did say however is " You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond." And SKT1 surely had no idea how fnatic would respond to the BMing hence they would not be aware of the social context either. So are you seriously claiming that people in competitions never humiliate their opponents and that competition follows the same social norms as regular society? People get humiliated in sports and esports all the time it's a different social setting to regular society. With the updates on Legends statement I take a lot less issue with calling Larva and idiot than if he as first reported called him mentally ill. Honestly I really don't care too much about what Legend does and doesn't do I care about what ZOTAC does. And I agree that civil behaviour is more important than gathering attention. What I am saying is you don't get to dictate what is allowed in civilized society. What Larva was damaging to Legend ego, but nothing else. Some people may feel that it breaches the limits of what they consider permissible, but that is not universal law merely an opinion. It's ill adviced for a lot of people to add their own standard unto someone else? Curious how that doesn't seem to apply to people putting their standards unto Larva. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 06 2017 06:39 iloveav wrote: I am a bit sad that we have gotten to the point where making something that is so hilarious (every caster was laughing, I was laughing, everyone I know who saw it told me it was hilarious) is considered "disrespectful" and turns out into a ban for future events. Seriously, we are 10 year olds? Guys, I go to work everyday and my boss shouts at me even when he is the one who fucked up. And guess what, I Taylor Swift shake it off and keep on working. I can understand that someone gets upset, but are we supposed to help or cuddle everyone every time someone gets upset? How many times you guys have totally lost it when loosing a game you thought you had in the bag? Or something similar? Nothing happens if you are offended, you grow up and learn to ignore it. Here is the real bad part about this: There are only 2 possibilities, 1. We show the world that BW is a place where BM is allowed and people are grown ups. 2. We do not allow BM and keep making it a politically correct environment (like we fucking can) till everyone has to behave (even as I am writing this its so stupid I know its never gonna happen). And Zotac is taking a stance that we are all children and need to be protected from BM.... Good luck with that (thou i totally get their point, they did a 20 000 dollar event and got negative press.... how would you react?!). I wouldn't even call it strictly BM. I would call it showboating. It's like Michael Jordan talking shit to his opponents and then hitting a free throw with his eyes closed, or Usain Bolt pumping his chest before he even crosses the finish line, or a boxer dropping their hands to their side and taunting their opponent to hit them while dodging their punches and then knocking them out. They're saying "I'm so much better than you look what I can do and still win." | ||
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Invidentia
Denmark30 Posts
On December 06 2017 07:58 tanngard wrote: Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event.. 1st $10,000 South Korea Larva 2nd $3,000 China Legend They both got a decent chunk of change out of the situation. This of course assuming that they give Larva the prize despite the ban, but I'm pretty sure he did get his money regardless. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:07 BlackJack wrote: I wouldn't even call it strictly BM. I would call it showboating. It's like Michael Jordan talking shit to his opponents and then hitting a free throw with his eyes closed, or Usain Bolt pumping his chest before he even crosses the finish line, or a boxer dropping their hands to their side and taunting their opponent to hit them while dodging their punches and then knocking them out. They're saying "I'm so much better than you look what I can do and still win." So true. We even know that Dereck Chisora made a huge disrespect towards brother's Klitschko: first at press conference he slapped older one Vitaliy and right before match vs. Vladimir he spitted water to his face from his mouth lol. And still he got away with it although got his ass beaten afterwards. And now there we have Larva clowning around. Look at guy: he won't harm an ant. Banning is one of the most stupid fucked up decisions in BW history. It's even worse than what KeSPA did to players who typed something else than GG ingame. | ||
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AManHasNoName
United States165 Posts
On December 06 2017 07:58 tanngard wrote: Which brings me back to a question that have been left unanswered: was the prize pool intended for the american players only? Did Larva win any money? Even the commentators could not get a hold of this information during the event.. Full Prize pool info (From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/527382-20000-zotac-cup-masters-scrm-na-sa ) MAIN EVENT: Prize Pool: $20,000 USD 1st - $10,000 2nd - $4,000 3rd - $3,000 4th-6th - $1,000 SHOW EVENT: Prize Pool:$15,000 1st - $10,000 2nd - $3,000 3rd - $1,000 4th- $1,000 | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:22 AManHasNoName wrote: Full Prize pool info (From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/527382-20000-zotac-cup-masters-scrm-na-sa ) MAIN EVENT: Prize Pool: $20,000 USD 1st - $10,000 2nd - $4,000 3rd - $3,000 4th-6th - $1,000 SHOW EVENT: Prize Pool:$15,000 1st - $10,000 2nd - $3,000 3rd - $1,000 4th- $1,000 Thank you! | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10237 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:48 ilikeredheads wrote: according to reddit, Larva isn't really banned by Zotac (not in events run by Zotac KR and America anyways). The ban is coming independently form Chinese branch so it seems there's a lot of miscommunication within the company. Zotac America had no problem with the showboating. I mean they seemed to be fine with showing all of it on the big camera so it would be pretty hard for them to make an argument against it. China is just incredibly salty. | ||
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Invidentia
Denmark30 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:22 AManHasNoName wrote: Full Prize pool info (From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/527382-20000-zotac-cup-masters-scrm-na-sa ) MAIN EVENT: Prize Pool: $20,000 USD 1st - $10,000 2nd - $4,000 3rd - $3,000 4th-6th - $1,000 SHOW EVENT: Prize Pool:$15,000 1st - $10,000 2nd - $3,000 3rd - $1,000 4th- $1,000 ?? This is the prizepool listed for the showevent on the link you listed: Prize Pool: 1st - $10,000 2nd - $3,000 3rd - $1,000 4th- $1,000 Maybe it was edited? Edit: I'm just an idiot who can't read | ||
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AManHasNoName
United States165 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:54 Invidentia wrote: ?? This is the prizepool listed for the showevent on the link you listed: Prize Pool: 1st - $10,000 2nd - $3,000 3rd - $1,000 4th- $1,000 Maybe it was edited? That's the same as what I posted o.o | ||
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Invidentia
Denmark30 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:55 AManHasNoName wrote: That's the same as what I posted o.o Hah FML I'm sorry I skimmed so fast I saw the combined prize pool as the first place prize. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On December 06 2017 08:00 Invidentia wrote: Yes I did imagine that might be returned onto me. What you did say however is " You dont do those kind of things without having any idea how the receiver will respond." And SKT1 surely had no idea how fnatic would respond to the BMing hence they would not be aware of the social context either. So are you seriously claiming that people in competitions never humiliate their opponents and that competition follows the same social norms as regular society? People get humiliated in sports and esports all the time it's a different social setting to regular society. With the updates on Legends statement I take a lot less issue with calling Larva and idiot than if he as first reported called him mentally ill. Honestly I really don't care too much about what Legend does and doesn't do I care about what ZOTAC does. And I agree that civil behaviour is more important than gathering attention. What I am saying is you don't get to dictate what is allowed in civilized society. What Larva was damaging to Legend ego, but nothing else. Some people may feel that it breaches the limits of what they consider permissible, but that is not universal law merely an opinion. It's ill adviced for a lot of people to add their own standard unto someone else? Curious how that doesn't seem to apply to people putting their standards unto Larva. I have already written about how i dont agree with the ban on larva made by zotac, so I do somewhat agree with you on the point of not dictating social rules unto others. My intention has not been to try and dictate the behavior of someone else. I have never implied that larva is a bad person. I am making the argument that larva forgot to think about how his antics would be received by legend and his fans. Evryone can make such a mistake. I dont make that claim to pull my standards on someone else, its an honest attempt to localize what went wrong between the two players so hopefully there is something to be learned from these events. Because to not care about how your actions will be received by the person on the receiving end of them could never be correct if we want to live in a better society. Im sure larva would agree on that and hence why i say he was being neglecting, rather than that he was justifying it through some kind of nihilism or ill-intent. But of course we fuck up all the time and that is okay as long as we can learn from it. I believe that the social contexts for when BM is permissible, is very complex and its quite hard to write down definite definitions (like i guess i have tried), or try and prove our points by giving various examples. But going by this situation alone and definitions aside, the fact is that lx felt disrespected. And if life have taught me anything it is that when someone feels disrespected they usually have picked up upon something crucial, while the person doing the offending often have their minds closed off to the idea that they did something wrong because their Ego is afraid how that would imply that they're being a "bad" person. Of course it doesnt help the matter when the person being offended is confused by the intentions of the offender and goes to vicious counter attacks. Its a bad cycle. I am doing mistakes all the time, but i hope with time i can grow as a person and do less of them. I will never be perfect though, so will have to be able to forgive myself even though its damned hard sometimes. | ||
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
he did something to have fun in a game! | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On December 06 2017 05:27 tanngard wrote: Did you watch Draco vs Larva? Was that boring you think? Now Larva did not even give Lx a chance to create a legit upset - first by offracing with his super good terran (lx would have prepared for zerg) and then for going completely clown mode in the last series. Larva did a troll build with an offrace so the games were harder? Holy crap the excuses are really evolving. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10237 Posts
On December 06 2017 11:33 De4ngus wrote: Larva did a troll build with an offrace so the games were harder? Holy crap the excuses are really evolving. The master swordsman does not fear the second best swordsman, he fears the one who has never picked up a sword in their life. Is this what they were going for? | ||
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tankgirl
Canada426 Posts
Give me a break. Larva was goaded by the commentators. I see no reason for this ban. | ||
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dp
United States234 Posts
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