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On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me  As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner.
If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title?
JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL
1st place: 2 times
2nd place or above: 4 times
Round of four or above: 5 times
Round of eight or above: 6 times
Round of sixteen or above: 8 times
Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL
1st place: 1 time
2nd place or above: 4 times
Round of four or above: 6 times
Round of eight or above: 12 times
Round of sixteen or above: 18 times
While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective.
Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion.
The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before.
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Croatia9529 Posts
Very well, you've convinced me. Reach is ahead of JangBi now in my book!
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Does anyone remember replay Reach vs some zerg on Lost Temple? That game was amazing. Protoss on 9 oclock vs 1 oclock. I was still playing toss back then so i think it was from 2004 y. or ealier. Reach went very fast expand, zerg was mass sunkens player. When i hear Reach, this game comes always in my mind 
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Bisutopia19305 Posts
On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before.
Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories)
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United States20661 Posts
Letmelose back with the truth & the data.
Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than best Terran... that analysis weighted by overall race representation is an interesting one.
Re:GTR, I would say producing units in large quantities and storm use are Reach's contributions to the race, though innovation attribution is always tough. Bisu stands on the shoulders of Daezang; I don't think Nal_rA was actually the first to do a televised forge FE, etc.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On June 27 2017 20:27 GTR wrote:
to be honest i can't really think of anything that reach did that was on-par 'revolutionary' with bisu and nal_ra (maybe ht in shuttles and zealot bombs)?
he's highly regarded mainly because he was the only protoss who could consistently post results in an era where protoss players struggled finding success in individual leagues.
He brought hope.
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is he R2ach on Fish? 37-13 B rank :o
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Bisutopia19305 Posts
On June 28 2017 02:59 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 20:27 GTR wrote:
to be honest i can't really think of anything that reach did that was on-par 'revolutionary' with bisu and nal_ra (maybe ht in shuttles and zealot bombs)?
he's highly regarded mainly because he was the only protoss who could consistently post results in an era where protoss players struggled finding success in individual leagues. He brought hope.
I'd say his bicep meta game influenced BeSt greatly.
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On JuNe 28 2017 02:44 Last Romantic wrote:
Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than Best Terran...
Really? is "Best Terran of all time" that harder to figure out?
I think 99% of people will agree on that one: go.go of course! 
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Bisutopia19305 Posts
On June 28 2017 03:02 LocoBolon wrote:Show nested quote +On JuNe 28 2017 02:44 Last Romantic wrote:
Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than Best Terran...
Really? is "Best Terran of all time" that harder to figure out? I think 99% of people will agree on that one: go.go of course!
And here I was thinking it was a tossup between  ForGG and CuteAngel
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On June 28 2017 03:03 thedeadhaji wrote:You gotta admit go.go had some pretty silly cheeses 
"unimpressed Flash meme with no text"
cya- 
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i just played 3 games vs Reach, hes already super solid :o
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On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories)
In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time.
For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion).
Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account).
There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work.
It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account?
Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player.
So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments.
1) P v T
The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games.
Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable.
2) P v Z
If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances.
3) P v P
I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series.
After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2).
I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it.
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On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it.
what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash?
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My prayers are answered. Thank you lord !!!
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United States20661 Posts
On June 28 2017 07:23 TwiggyWan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash?
Most titles, most wins, etc - NaDa
Highest skill peak - FlaSh
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holy crap. this thread is hilarious.
REACH!!!!! My first favourite player. All these other throwbacks. Xellos?!?! haha. iloveoov! nal_rA!!!!! The villain Nada!
I have brand new July plans.
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On June 28 2017 07:23 TwiggyWan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote:On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote:Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash?
Due to unfortunate circumstances, we never saw Flash's natural progression against newer waves of hungry talents. This is apparent if you look at the number of players participating in the offline qualifiers. There were often two hundred participants trying out their luck in becoming the next StarLeaguer during the earlier years of Flash's career, and by the time ABCMart MSL came around, only around half that number participated. After that, Flash's Brood War career was cut short prematurely, and we never saw the Flash's full career arc, like we did for the other bonjwas in history.
With that in mind, this is their comparison of their OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments/MSL performances, which is pretty much the only fair metric for comparison due to how long NaDa's career is, and how different the scene changed over the years. NaDa's reign at the top predates the ProLeague, GomTV Classics, and other minor tournaments Flash found success in. NaDa's accomplishments in iTV Ranking Tournaments, GhemTV StarLeague, KT/KTF Premier League, Shinhan Masters and numerous other tournaments that died out are unsuitable for comparison for this reason also.
NaDa's performance in OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments/MSL
1st place: 6 times
2nd place or above: 10 times
Round of four or above: 11 times
Round of eight or above: 18 times
Round of sixteen or above: 28 times
Flash's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL
1st place: 6 times
2nd place or above: 8 times
Round of four or above: 11 times
Round of eight or above: 16 times
Round of sixteen or above: 21 times
So Flash's career didn't last long enough, and the difference is 2 finals appearances, 2 more round of eight appearances, and 7 more round of sixteen appearances. Consider the entire career achievements of Light, one of the more respected terran players of the modern era.
1st place: 0 times
2nd place or above: 0 times
Round of four or above: 1 time
Round of eight or above: 4 times
Round of sixteen or above: 6 times
So you can add the career's of Flash and Light, and their career achievements in the major individual leagues still lags behind that of NaDa's.
Of course, you can make the argument that Flash was more successful in the ProLeague, and that is entirely correct, but remember that NaDa's most fruitful year in terms of trophy count was in 2002, when the ProLeague didn't exist. Imagine if you take out one year of Flash's best performance in the 2009/2010 season, and judged Flash on that basis. He would be remembered as a two time champion instead of six.
Further more, it's not like NaDa was mediocre in the ProLeague when he was a top player. He had by far the largest number of accumulated 1v1 victories in the ProLeague (as well as the highest win rate in 2v2) until the massive inflation in the number of ProLeague games allowed Jaedong to surpass him in early 2009 despite making his debut in 2006. To shed some light into how drastic the inflation was, any single year long ProLeague season since 2008/2009 had more ProLeague games played than all ProLeague games from 2003~2006.
Moments before Jaedong usurped him as the all time leader of ProLeague victories, NaDa had accumulated 71 one versus one ProLeague victories. At this moment in time (end of 2008), due to the massive explosion of ProLeague games all the top placings were dominated by more recent players such as Stork, Jaedong, Anytime, and Sea.
Flash had already made it in to the top ten despite making his ProLeague debut in 2007, ahead of past legends such as sAviOr and iloveoov. All time great players such as BoxeR, iloveoov, and sAviOr all had roughly half the number of wins NaDa had accumulated. NaDa was usurped partly due to the change in circumstances, and there was nothing he could do except hope that his prime years would be in sync with a period where you could get literally hundreds of ProLeague victories given a couple years of great form. However, NaDa was still the all time ProLeague leader for victories until 2008, whereas Jaedong held that title from 2009 to 2011.
Considering in one single season, Bisu managed to get 63 wins during his much praised 2010/2011 ProLeague effort, you get the idea of how skewed the comparison can get if you don't factor in the change in circumstances. One great year in the ProLeague in the more recent era was enough to usurp years of absolute top tier ProLeague performances.
So once you factor in the circumstances of their achievements, there is almost no doubt in my mind that NaDa's has accumulated more accomplishments during his career, although Flash's overall body of work is extra-ordinary for a career that only lasted about half as long. What Flash has in his favour, is quality rather than quantity. Judging from the trajectory of his career by the time professional Brood War ended, it would be fair to assume that Flash would have gone on to accomplish more than any other player in history even if new superstars sprung left and right like they did when professional Brood War scene was more vibrant. However, we're not here to talk about assumptions, or how devoid of failures someone's career has, we're talking about actual accomplishments, and NaDa is the greatest player of all time in that particular regard.
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EPT
