Looks like the organizers are soliciting new map submissions for the next ASL season (and potentially for later this season?). Guess this would be implicit confirmation of an ASL season 4
For all our mapmakers out there, might be a nice opportunity -- only caveat being everything's in Korean. Already about a dozen or submissions on the ASL Afreeca board.
Very happy for foreign map makers who finally have an opportunity to show their work. Foreign maps have had clean pathing and a lot more "math" to them in recent memory, from what I've seen. Hopefully their work will be appreciated.
I do hope that new maps are made for this I'm interested to see what is made when the pressure is on to rise to the top. Heck, maybe I'll make a map for the first time since 2004ish xD
EDIT 2: Is there a thread or external resource that lists all of the tools mapmakers use? I'm familiar with the actual map editors but I haven't seen the territory analysis or rush distance calculators anywhere.
On April 10 2017 14:59 JungleTerrain wrote: There seems to be a lack of 3 player maps. Most of the submissions so far are for 2 and 4 players.
There seems to be a lack of 3 player maps. Most of the submissions so far are for 2 and 4 players.[/quote] I guess we should finish and submit Uzi Sara, Frogstar World B and Legionnaire (and of course send Reap the Storm along with it). And work on my island maps...
And if we wanted to submit our maps, is there a way we can do this if we don't know korean? Maybe a little help from somebody? ^^
Time to sign up on Afreeca TV, I guess...
Edit: And can we finally have a Custom Maps forum on the left side for Brood War just like SC2?
+1!
I do hope that new maps are made for this I'm interested to see what is made when the pressure is on to rise to the top. Heck, maybe I'll make a map for the first time since 2004ish xD
I have given up making maps for specific occasions. I have enough finished or almost finished maps to show and "it's done hen it's done" is the best philosophy. I definitely have some interesting maps in the pipeline right now.
EDIT 2: Is there a thread or external resource that lists all of the tools mapmakers use? I'm familiar with the actual map editors but I haven't seen the territory analysis or rush distance calculators anywhere.
For melee maps you really onlu need SCMDraft although StarForge can do at least one thing that SCMDraft cannot, but there is a workaround for that with SCMDraft. So at this point all you really need are SCMDraft for making the map and CHKDraft (specifically its terrain level display) as a debugging tool. Unfortunately, there actually are no in-editor tools for anything pathfinding-related yet. We still need to spend hours with iterative in-game testing for that. With the renewed interest and activity spurred by the announcement of Remastered there is some progress to be expected on this front in the not-too-far future, though.
On April 10 2017 17:19 gngfn wrote: I'd love to see one of our pro mapmakers stream the process of putting together a map for this.
A live stream would probably be terribly boring to watch... And making a single fleshed out map can take anything from 50 hours upwards (just an estimate, it is hard to take track when I usually do it in sessions of .5 to 2 hours over multiple months...), I could write a guide (if I ever find the time...) or make a gif from some map in progress pictures...
Lots of them are really weird concepts that are probably not very playable or balanced and I see lots of them having some serious bug just from the pictures. Who can teach me Korean so I can post comments O_o ?!
I like the concept of a three player map which always turns out completely different due to the positions, but in the posted picture it just seems like in some matchups it's game over once the player in the center controls the map and the other player is cornered.
On April 10 2017 17:19 gngfn wrote: I'd love to see one of our pro mapmakers stream the process of putting together a map for this.
I have the next best thing ... I've been taking pictures of each update for one of my maps recently. Here is the one for my current map I've been working on so you can kinda see the process. Freakling, Jukado, CrystalDrag, Nzero, Neobowman all chimed in a bit (Freakling the most lol).
This is how I do it, not sure how everyone else does it exactly. But it gives an idea... just a bunch of edits over time. It's pretty boring, as Freak said.
It is your calling in life Freakling to get a map submited for the ASL. I would love to see pro's playing on almost anyone one of your maps. Beautiful maps + beautiful players must equal some kind of beautiful thing.
On April 10 2017 22:55 Greg_J wrote: It is your calling in life Freakling to get a map submited for the ASL. I would love to see pro's playing on almost anyone one of your maps. Beautiful maps + beautiful players must equal some kind of beautiful thing.
Really cool to see they're planning stuff out so far in advance. I've been a critic of the way they stagger their tournaments, but they seem to be doing a really kickass job this season and next.
러쉬거리 (본진 입구↔입구) : rush distance (main entrance to entrance)
※ 맵 제작 시 꼭 확인해야 하는 부분 Necessary to check the following
1. 자원 채취율이 자리마다 차이가 나지 않는지 확인 (미네랄/가스)
1. Resource gathering rates do not vary from position to position (mineral/gas)
2. 자원이 돌아 캐진 않는지 확인 (미네랄/가스)
2. Workers do not gather walk around when gathering resources (mineral/gas)
3. 선기도가 존재하지 않는지 확인
3. Make sure no Seon-gi Islands exist.
t/n Seon-gi Islands are locations with barely enough room for a single tank to siege up and harass the opponent. These locations are inaccessible by ground forces.
1. Resource gathering rates do not vary from position to position (mineral/gas)
A bit vague? Is there any objective cutoff? Differences of 10% are basically unavoidable for gas and differences of up to 20% for gas and 5%, or even more, for minerals is what just tends to happen if this is not tested thoroughly (and if you know where to put and not to put gas geysers in the first place).
2. 자원이 돌아 캐진 않는지 확인 (미네랄/가스)
2. Workers do not gather walk around when gathering resources (mineral/gas)
I guess this means they are not to wander through gaps behind the mineral formations...
3. 선기도가 존재하지 않는지 확인
3. Make sure no Seon-gi Islands exist.
t/n Seon-gi Islands are locations with barely enough room for a single tank to siege up and harass the opponent. These locations are inaccessible by ground forces.
We call these tank holes. They also have some little brothers, known as Templar holes, Ghost holes and Zergling, in that order. Zergling holes can basically be ignored, the others... Unfortunately at least Ghost holes are sometimes unavoidable due to how isometric cliffs work, but Ghost tend to not be abused that much ;D
맵 파일은 링크로 걸어주세요 ^^ Provide a link to the map file.
채택되신 분들에 한하여 퀵뷰 30일권을 드리겠습니다 ^_^* We will give you an item that blocks ads from Afreeca for 30 days if your map is selected.
감사합니다. Thank you.
Not that I would expect anything more, but had they just said "do it for the honour" that would have sounded less ... you know... let's go with "modest"...
i think power map is a shitty translation - i'd be more inclined to translate it as 'territorial control' but yeah, i think for english terms, just describe the map concept in one phrase and have lemmata (or some other korean translator) work their noose around it for a korean translation
Hey, quick question, is it possible to use destructibles like the Xel'Naga Temple and Protoss Temple in melee modes? How do you set that up in the editor? Thanks in advance.
Okay, little interim report. I tried to register on Afreeca. Unfortunately they do not double confirm passwords and I must have made a typo there, so I could not lock in... So I tried password recovery, just to be informed that "that service is not available in my region". So I guess that account is dead on arrival. If any one has any idea whom to contact to have this fixed, please tell me...
Anyway, so I registered again. It does not accept e-mail addresses that are already taken, so I left that out for now (I just typed in something like aehgoiasdgh@asdg.com). I figure that having it registered under a Korean e-mail would be best, for above mentioned reason. So if any one has any good tips how to come by that or has an address to lend... I also could not figure out, where to actually change the e-mail address, because all the menus are in Korean. So I could use some help there as well. I registered as BWMapsNet, I suggest we use that as a joint account for our submissions.
I am locked in right now and it seems that I can open a thread in the map submissions forum. I guess the best way would be to post it here first, have it translated by lemmata or some one else willing to help out, and then copy it over (athough some reformatting is probably gonna be required, as it does not seem like they ues BBCode).
On April 17 2017 23:20 mishimaBeef wrote: Hey, quick question, is it possible to use destructibles like the Xel'Naga Temple and Protoss Temple in melee modes? How do you set that up in the editor? Thanks in advance.
Maybe I'll spruce up one of my old maps and submit it. No chance it gets in but why not give it a shot. I'm definitely hopeful for Jungleterrain and Freakling tho. It'd be sick for their stuff to get in. I sorta wish guys like Testbug and Superouman were here to submit theirs too.
On April 18 2017 01:58 neobowman wrote: How did I not notice this til now?
Maybe I'll spruce up one of my old maps and submit it. No chance it gets in but why not give it a shot. I'm definitely hopeful for Jungleterrain and Freakling tho. It'd be sick for their stuff to get in. I sorta wish guys like Testbug and Superouman were here to submit theirs too.
I could finally finish Atlantis. That's at least based on a concept by ProTosS4EveR (aka. Superouman). However, I was more thinking of submitting Reap the Storm and my soon to be finished Frogstar World B, maybe also Légionnaire, although that is still a few steps away from being finished.
On a more general note, Overwatch and Kiseyras should definitely be submitted. And Uzi Sara, of course.
Finally a relatively big institution/organizer of some sort acknowledges the more than sensible needs for: a) new maps and b) for maps to have resource gathering rates that do not vary from position to position.
The question is do they have the people to play around and check (and eventually fix) all the submitted maps they liked but that do not fit the criteria for the balanced resource gathering. From what I recall this alone was not as an easy task to accomplish as it might sound and was very time and effort consuming for both the mapmaker and the players involved. I hope they have the needed people to cope with this issue. My suspicision is that they do not.
One thing that really annoys me is the "prize" for the contest which really shows they have no clue about the skills and work needed to make new, balanced and good looking maps. An item that blocks ads for 30 days on afreeca sounds like a joke to me. I mean couldn't they come up with something that makes a connection between the players and the mapmakers? "Winner of contest is awarded a maptheory session with the player that ended up with the most wins on the map in the ASL" would have been more creative. If they just spelled out "honour" there, that would still have been significantly better.
It's really important that this is not a one-off and they start getting mapmakers AND players more involved in order to introduce new and balanced maps more frequently.
Freakling, will you sumbit as many maps of yours that you find suitable for the contest? If you need help with testing I'll be there for you, just let me know. I really wish you good luck with the contest!
And of course good luck to all the mapmakers that read this!
Yep, I followed that thread with interest. I guess the difference though is that this is more like watching a replay and not an FPVOD. I was really surprised to hear that the time investment can total 50 hours or more, and I'm curious how that all breaks down and what the most tedious aspects are, especially with respect to the tooling.
Either way, thanks for sharing that much of the process with us. Looking forward to seeing your ASL submissions as well.
Yep, I followed that thread with interest. I guess the difference though is that this is more like watching a replay and not an FPVOD. I was really surprised to hear that the time investment can total 50 hours or more, and I'm curious how that all breaks down and what the most tedious aspects are, especially with respect to the tooling.
Either way, thanks for sharing that much of the process with us. Looking forward to seeing your ASL submissions as well.
This is part of the reason why it takes so long. Take a look at this:
I would like to see Latin Quarter submitted. I like the combination of La Mancha and Fighting Spirit. I think it could very well be better balanced than FS and still pretty standard. Does someone know how we can suggest maps whilst not being the creator himself? Or at least to contact the creator of Latin Quarter to motivate him ;D
On April 18 2017 08:03 LRM)TechnicS wrote: One thing that really annoys me is the "prize" for the contest which really shows they have no clue about the skills and work needed to make new, balanced and good looking maps. An item that blocks ads for 30 days on afreeca sounds like a joke to me. I mean couldn't they come up with something that makes a connection between the players and the mapmakers? "Winner of contest is awarded a maptheory session with the player that ended up with the most wins on the map in the ASL" would have been more creative. If they just spelled out "honour" there, that would still have been significantly better.
Unfortunately, that's kind of par for the course... You have to remember that this TerrorLand. Also, they probably see this as a way to get the average fan participating, sort of like how they have open preliminaries that anyone can sign up for... I can understand the marketing strategy even if I think that they're not giving the respect that map makers deserve.
That said, we don't necessarily need Afreeca to get feedback from pros. I have organized some map-testing sessions in the past with pro players. For example, Kim Carry and Mind+ZerO+GuemChi tested Jukado's Toad Stone and Latin Quarter in all non-mirror match ups a while back. They all said that these maps were very standard and balanced. They wrote up some feedback and comments as well on why these maps were good and how they could be improved. Essentially, they found no fault with Toad Stone and thought that Latin Quarter favored Zerg slightly compared to the usual balance due to distances between specific bases, but nothing worth fretting about.
Recently, Zeus also gave some high praise for Freakling's map Inner Coven, saying that it was the kind of concept map that would be perfect for the next ASL because everyone would spend time developing unique one-off builds once they saw all the strategic possibilities in the map. Foreign map maker's skills are recognized by some (though not all) pros when they see the maps.
Afreeca is not run by pro gamers though. Plus, if it was run by pro gamers, we would only get super standard maps in big tournaments. In some sense, the fact that Afreeca doesn't really know much about maps has benefits because it means that they're willing to try new maps.
Sorry to bump this, but I did not want to create a new thread just for my selfish request.
Was wondering if anybody fluent in Korean can help me translate my application for the ASL map submission board on Afreecatv.com, as well as possibly assist me in navigating the site at least well enough to post my submission.
If you would like to help, it would be really appreciated. PM me or you can reply back in this thread. Thanks.
Edit: A reply back in this thread could be useful for anybody else not fluent in Korean trying to submit a map for future ASLs.
On April 10 2017 22:55 Greg_J wrote: It is your calling in life Freakling to get a map submited for the ASL. I would love to see pro's playing on almost anyone one of your maps. Beautiful maps + beautiful players must equal some kind of beautiful thing.
Okay. I am done. Some one please volunteer to post my maps on Afreeca for me. I simply cannot figure it out. They don't accept e-Mails with periods in the signups, don't accept e-mails outside of a few providers when trying to change it later in the profile settings and on top of that demand a mobile phone number from me, but simply don't accept any number I tried to enter. In short: They seem to be set up to just troll me and waste my time and half of the resources of the internet. I have better things to do than play stupid games against admins who cannot set up a site so it resembles anything that you could actually use. I'll try to write some not so friendly mail to their hopefully existent customer support (if I can figure out how), but that's it. I am done with it.
On May 17 2017 02:14 Freakling wrote: Okay. I am done. Some one please volunteer to post my maps on Afreeca for me. I simply cannot figure it out. They don't accept e-Mails with periods in the signups, don't accept e-mails outside of a few providers when trying to change it later in the profile settings and on top of that demand a mobile phone number from me, but simply don't accept any number I tried to enter. In short: They seem to be set up to just troll me and waste my time and half of the resources of the internet. I have better things to do than play stupid games against admins who cannot set up a site so it resembles anything that you could actually use. I'll try to write some not so friendly mail to their hopefully existent customer support (if I can figure out how), but that's it. I am done with it.
I can do it for you Freaky, if you want you can just send me all the relevant info. I just would need the translations and whatever images you want. You've helped me enough with my maps lol. Just PM if you down.
On May 17 2017 02:14 Freakling wrote: Okay. I am done. Some one please volunteer to post my maps on Afreeca for me. I simply cannot figure it out. They don't accept e-Mails with periods in the signups, don't accept e-mails outside of a few providers when trying to change it later in the profile settings and on top of that demand a mobile phone number from me, but simply don't accept any number I tried to enter. In short: They seem to be set up to just troll me and waste my time and half of the resources of the internet. I have better things to do than play stupid games against admins who cannot set up a site so it resembles anything that you could actually use. I'll try to write some not so friendly mail to their hopefully existent customer support (if I can figure out how), but that's it. I am done with it.
I can do it for you Freaky, if you want you can just send me all the relevant info. I just would need the translations and whatever images you want. You've helped me enough with my maps lol. Just PM if you down.
I'm sorry you have not received help on this. I notified the staff already. I'll ask one more time that an AfreecaTV member post in here.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
On May 17 2017 02:14 Freakling wrote: Okay. I am done. Some one please volunteer to post my maps on Afreeca for me. I simply cannot figure it out. They don't accept e-Mails with periods in the signups, don't accept e-mails outside of a few providers when trying to change it later in the profile settings and on top of that demand a mobile phone number from me, but simply don't accept any number I tried to enter. In short: They seem to be set up to just troll me and waste my time and half of the resources of the internet. I have better things to do than play stupid games against admins who cannot set up a site so it resembles anything that you could actually use. I'll try to write some not so friendly mail to their hopefully existent customer support (if I can figure out how), but that's it. I am done with it.
I can do it for you Freaky, if you want you can just send me all the relevant info. I just would need the translations and whatever images you want. You've helped me enough with my maps lol. Just PM if you down.
Thanks a lot. I'll send you something to just copy and paste over via PM.
On May 17 2017 02:14 Freakling wrote: Okay. I am done. Some one please volunteer to post my maps on Afreeca for me. I simply cannot figure it out. They don't accept e-Mails with periods in the signups, don't accept e-mails outside of a few providers when trying to change it later in the profile settings and on top of that demand a mobile phone number from me, but simply don't accept any number I tried to enter. In short: They seem to be set up to just troll me and waste my time and half of the resources of the internet. I have better things to do than play stupid games against admins who cannot set up a site so it resembles anything that you could actually use. I'll try to write some not so friendly mail to their hopefully existent customer support (if I can figure out how), but that's it. I am done with it.
I can do it for you Freaky, if you want you can just send me all the relevant info. I just would need the translations and whatever images you want. You've helped me enough with my maps lol. Just PM if you down.
I'm sorry you have not received help on this. I notified the staff already. I'll ask one more time that an AfreecaTV member post in here.
It's alright, can't blame you for having other things on your mind right now. Enjoy your family.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
Obviously my post is in Korean but I don't know a lick of it (translations by Lemmata, thank you so much!).
The first comment on my thread I'm not sure what he is saying. Then LatiAs comes in and says (translated): "This is a foreigner and you have to comment in English lol"
On May 17 2017 04:39 JungleTerrain wrote: Something that I find funny...
Obviously my post is in Korean but I don't know a lick of it (translations by Lemmata, thank you so much!).
The first comment on my thread I'm not sure what he is saying. Then LatiAs comes in and says (translated): "This is a foreigner and you have to comment in English lol"
Haha nice. I can read Korean but excruciatingly slowly so it would've been tough for me to try and get to the pages on my own. Thanks.
oh boy! im getting so excited looking at the maps submitted so manny of them!! so much creativity thankgod some maps feature obvious balance issues but damn some real gems out there uzi sara i find really interesting...
if they will only pick one map at least some of the top 3 should be used in another league acl or asl teamleague
On April 18 2017 19:10 chrisolo wrote: I would like to see Latin Quarter submitted. I like the combination of La Mancha and Fighting Spirit. I think it could very well be better balanced than FS and still pretty standard. Does someone know how we can suggest maps whilst not being the creator himself? Or at least to contact the creator of Latin Quarter to motivate him ;D
Thanks chrisolo. Im not planning to send in Latin Quarter though. This is because Ive since made (4)Crown And Sceptre and also (4)Clay Fields which I think are better, so Im hoping to send those 2 in instead. Overall I hope the best maps are chosen to be used. Im just sending mine in to give them some exposure to the korean scene.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
My wife is korean, if there's something anyone wants to know, just ask me here or via pm and we should be able to figure it out. I know korean websites can be extremely tedious to navigate through... knowing the language is sometimes not enough.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
It's cool I'm concerned terran might have too easy of a time mech slowpushing to take 4-5 bases?
Feel like it could be difficult for zerg to defend naturals with the extra ramp now that i think about it, but sunkens should be pretty strong with the high ground advantage
@Jukado: I already asked lemmata to give me an abstract, Seems like its basically points out that diagonal minerals mine slower (which is only half correct: diagonal front row minerals may be faster or slower than straight-line back row ones, depending on the could-as-well-be-random gods of SC pathfinding) and proceeds with some additional theses that don't seem to have much rational behind them, namely:
make minerals that are farther away lower yield, so they can all be mined out simultaneously (I don't really see the rational, other than maybe making redistribution of workers between expansions less of an issue for players, but that's still completely ignoring the fact that mining rate depends a lot on worker saturation; or maybe that is supposed to be the point: That mineral fields in the middle of a mineral line attract more workers and therefor tend to mine out quicker at medium saturations)
make naturals so they mine out slower...
... and thirds so they mine faster (even though differences you can induce just by moving one mineral field or two further away from the resource depot location are minimal, not more thatn 5%, maybe 10% if you are actually willing to accept some serious worker pathfinding bugs, and that is only at single saturation, at higher saturation all that can be done is spread out minerals really far so migration gets slowed down a lot [think centre exapansion on Andromeda, for example])
tldr: This seems to be the same type of very basic research that has already been done by others over a decade ago and it's barely scratching the surface or offering any good tips on how to actually balance resource gathering rates.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
It's cool I'm concerned terran might have too easy of a time mech slowpushing to take 4-5 bases?
Feel like it could be difficult for zerg to defend naturals with the extra ramp now that i think about it, but sunkens should be pretty strong with the high ground advantage
That's why there is the neutral creep colony on the low ground (same idea as Colosseum). There is space for quite a lot of sunkens there. Additionally, as you already suggested, if a Zerg really want to turtle, getting a macro hatch (third hatch in ZvT) in the main on the cliff above the natural choke and then getting two sunkens on the cliff and two more on the cliff in the natural is really hard to break for any opponent.
@Freakling/Lemmata thanks. Are these 2 posts written by an ASL representative who is trying to give guidelines or an unaffiliated mapper trying to give tips?
On May 21 2017 18:01 Freakling wrote: @Jukado: I already asked lemmata to give me an abstract, Seems like its basically points out that diagonal minerals mine slower (which is only half correct: diagonal front row minerals may be faster or slower than straight-line back row ones, depending on the could-as-well-be-random gods of SC pathfinding) and proceeds with some additional theses that don't seem to have much rational behind them, namely:
make minerals that are farther away lower yield, so they can all be mined out simultaneously (I don't really see the rational, other than maybe making redistribution of workers between expansions less of an issue for players, but that's still completely ignoring the fact that mining rate depends a lot on worker saturation; or maybe that is supposed to be the point: That mineral fields in the middle of a mineral line attract more workers and therefor tend to mine out quicker at medium saturations)
make naturals so they mine out slower...
... and thirds so they mine faster (even though differences you can induce just by moving one mineral field or two further away from the resource depot location are minimal, not more thatn 5%, maybe 10% if you are actually willing to accept some serious worker pathfinding bugs, and that is only at single saturation, at higher saturation all that can be done is spread out minerals really far so migration gets slowed down a lot [think centre exapansion on Andromeda, for example])
tldr: This seems to be the same type of very basic research that has already been done by others over a decade ago and it's barely scratching the surface or offering any good tips on how to actually balance resource gathering rates.
On May 17 2017 02:59 GGzerG wrote: Awesome, I hope to see some Foreigner maps in there!
So far Kiseyras (by Crystaldrag) and Uzi Sara (me) are in there, they've both gotten some good response, I feel. Now it is freakling's turn for his maps to be exposed to the Korean world!
It's cool I'm concerned terran might have too easy of a time mech slowpushing to take 4-5 bases?
Feel like it could be difficult for zerg to defend naturals with the extra ramp now that i think about it, but sunkens should be pretty strong with the high ground advantage
That's why there is the neutral creep colony on the low ground (same idea as Colosseum). There is space for quite a lot of sunkens there. Additionally, as you already suggested, if a Zerg really want to turtle, getting a macro hatch (third hatch in ZvT) in the main on the cliff above the natural choke and then getting two sunkens on the cliff and two more on the cliff in the natural is really hard to break for any opponent.
Is there enough room for Ultras and stuff to get out if you drop the 3rd hatch infront of the ramp?
The ramps leave a 4-gap on the left and right spawns and a 6-gap at the top spawn, a Hatchery only takes 4x3 tiles and an Ultra is about 1x1 tiles big, so yes there would be enough room. I doubt it would make for a good setup though...
I wonder if on Uzi Sara it would be a commonly used strategy in ZvP to wall sim city at that low ground entrance. Wonder if it is too wide for that (am at work so can't check).
On May 22 2017 05:07 Freakling wrote: What do you mean? On the low ground? Like so:
The ramps leave a 4-gap on the left and right spawns and a 6-gap at the top spawn, a Hatchery only takes 4x3 tiles and an Ultra is about 1x1 tiles big, so yes there would be enough room. I doubt it would make for a good setup though...
Seems like a decent sim city for ZvP, and i dunno i was thinking ZvT it would work too since you need the 3rd hat anyway but i dunno.
On May 22 2017 05:07 Freakling wrote: What do you mean? On the low ground? Like so:
The ramps leave a 4-gap on the left and right spawns and a 6-gap at the top spawn, a Hatchery only takes 4x3 tiles and an Ultra is about 1x1 tiles big, so yes there would be enough room. I doubt it would make for a good setup though...
Seems like a decent sim city for ZvP, and i dunno i was thinking ZvT it would work too since you need the 3rd hat anyway but i dunno.
My biggest concern with my map is that I hope it doesn't force 3 hatch builds (or punish 2 hatch strategies) for this reason so that's why I added the neutral creep. It is not good for balance to restrict one race's options, especially if it doesn't do the same to the other races. Anyways, the map is experimental for this reason.
Another concern I had is PvZ in hydra bust situations. Some of these scenarios are just difficult to assess unless play testing is done (or just playing any games on it). Maybe the map is balanced, maybe it isn't. I just wanted to try something new [and make it look good, too].
Hydra busts are strong if either rushing distances are very short (they are pretty normal for a 3 player map, which is already slightly over average) or there is a lot of area in front of the nat for Hydras to form a concave (there isn't). Enough cannon space should also be no problem, as not only is there plenty on the low ground but more can be build on the cliffs in the main and natural, which makes the choke extremely hard to break with anything (even if the low ground falls, the nat is still safe on the high ground, with some Zealots blocking the ramp and hopefully some psi storms on the way to wipe out the Hydras clumping up in the tight low ground passage – Hydra busting an even halfway prepared Protoss could easily be an absolute nightmare for the Zerg here. The purpose of a Hydra bust is to kill a Proross' natural, after all. Hard to do when it's safe up a ramp.
The worker spawn is some haxxx, of course. I uploaded a picture on afreeca to show how it is done... There is also a whole thread by CrystalDrag here on TL, discussing all the quirks in detail.
I just updated it to facilitate some more Protoss wallins for 7/11 o'clock... Though Larva was terrible at finding the decent ones which were already there...
On July 10 2017 19:47 Freakling wrote: Why don't they add all 3, though?
I don't think the players like having to learn a bunch of new maps. Maybe between this and SSL Classic we'll get two new maps next season, though--Frogstar World B still has a chance!
Also, congrats to JungleTerrain. Hope Uzi Sara wins the runoff.
Now JD tested these 3 maps in his stream. "I think Salamander is not good for zerg. I dont like this map" "And, Crossing field is worst for zerg. ZvP will be unbalnced in this map" "Thank you for Uzi sara mapmaker. Creep colony is so sensitive, and this map is like Demian. Protoss is not good in this map. Z>P, Z<T, I think"
uzi sara does look damn good eh^^ hard for p says JD? modify?? if Z makes a third at a spot near the neutral creep, he can get a high ground sunken defense covering both ramps for a fourth but reavers should be stronger if they get to that spot so uhh
i dont get why Jaedong thinks Salamander and Crossing Field are bad for zerg. Crossing Field is actually really good for zerg. Uzi Sara should also even things out, i would like all 3 to get played.
yay populism. jaedong hates it so his whole stream has to vote bomb it! i don't care about the map one way or another, but this is why you ask players in private or have a committee like kespa did, or have actual discussions on the internet, not just open a useless internet poll
I wasn't expecting them to do a vote on the maps, that's interesting.
By the way, the map is experimental so we still have to see how matchups actually pan out. I've theorycrafted a lot during the making of the map but who knows.
And... Why did they put an old picture of the map? That is not 1.2 (which I still need to change).
Well, they don't handle communication with the map makers and the community very well I think...
If you ask me they should just use both Uzi Sara and Salamander. It's still a while till ASL4 starts, enough time for players to prepare two maps. And voting for one or the other is like voting for whether you want something to eat or a drink for dinner... One is a pretty standard 4p macro map, the other an experimental 3p map. Bot are are needed and complement each other. No reason to chose between them. Crossing Field I just don't like conceptually. Loki, Nemesis, God's Garden, Central Plains: Maps with a super safe backdoor nat (and a front door one on top of that) have turned out to be macro snore fests time and time again. I think neither of those maps has produced particularly nice games, or good balance for that matter, I don't see why this new iteration should be an exception...
On July 11 2017 07:10 Freakling wrote: Crossing Field I just don't like conceptually. Loki, Nemesis, God's Garden, Central Plains: Maps with a super safe backdoor nat (and a front door one on top of that) have turned out to be macro snore fests time and time again. I think neither of those maps has produced particularly nice games, or good balance for that matter, I don't see why this new iteration should be an exception...
imo the problem with that concept isnt the concept itself, but more what there is left with the map. gods garden and central plains basically have 0 interaction with the whole middle of the map. "gaining territory" doesnt really translate into anything. you either secure another main base, or you dont, as that translates into free 3-4 base, and there is no other choice to take different bases. this is pretty binary without many options on the map, hence boring. just comparing it to outsider, yes you can still secure 2 bases and 2 mineral only bases when you take another main, but as you are giving up that map control, your enemy can take the mineral only bases in the middle, opening up more variation. nemesis only goal is to contain your enemy at his tiny ramp, because this wins you the game 99%, unless you are very bad at defending drops. again there is nothing else to do on this map, middle is just a single open field, all bases are only accessable through a tiny ramp/island. as a 2 player map, loki is different, because apart from the free 3 base start economy, there is no other free 3 base to take, so you have to play the map. you are using different ramps/chokes to secure more territory in order to get more bases. so i think crossing field will be a fun map, because you still have to use all the ramps/chokes on the map to secure another base.
Can you even wall off your nat as protoss on Crossing Field? Didn't seem like it from watching Larva's vod. That's like map making 101.. giving protoss a wall-able nat vs zerg.
On July 11 2017 13:53 TT1 wrote: Can you even wall off your nat as protoss on Crossing Field? Didn't seem like it from watching Larva's vod. That's like map making 101.. giving protoss a wall-able nat vs zerg.
It looks like hydra busts will be strong there since they can get a nice concave as a result of the wide choke.
I think the reasoning behind this is because of the backdoor expansion. Therefore the front expansion has more "risk" involved.
On July 11 2017 13:53 TT1 wrote: Can you even wall off your nat as protoss on Crossing Field? Didn't seem like it from watching Larva's vod. That's like map making 101.. giving protoss a wall-able nat vs zerg.
It looks like hydra busts will be strong there since they can get a nice concave as a result of the wide choke.
I think the reasoning behind this is because of the backdoor expansion. Therefore the front expansion has more "risk" involved.
EDIT: oh shit i missed the backdoor expo, my bad. i thought the 3rd base was actually the nat, my mistake
On July 11 2017 07:10 Freakling wrote: Crossing Field I just don't like conceptually. Loki, Nemesis, God's Garden, Central Plains: Maps with a super safe backdoor nat (and a front door one on top of that) have turned out to be macro snore fests time and time again. I think neither of those maps has produced particularly nice games, or good balance for that matter, I don't see why this new iteration should be an exception...
imo the problem with that concept isnt the concept itself, but more what there is left with the map. gods garden and central plains basically have 0 interaction with the whole middle of the map. "gaining territory" doesnt really translate into anything. you either secure another main base, or you dont, as that translates into free 3-4 base, and there is no other choice to take different bases. this is pretty binary without many options on the map, hence boring. just comparing it to outsider, yes you can still secure 2 bases and 2 mineral only bases when you take another main, but as you are giving up that map control, your enemy can take the mineral only bases in the middle, opening up more variation. nemesis only goal is to contain your enemy at his tiny ramp, because this wins you the game 99%, unless you are very bad at defending drops. again there is nothing else to do on this map, middle is just a single open field, all bases are only accessable through a tiny ramp/island. as a 2 player map, loki is different, because apart from the free 3 base start economy, there is no other free 3 base to take, so you have to play the map. you are using different ramps/chokes to secure more territory in order to get more bases. so i think crossing field will be a fun map, because you still have to use all the ramps/chokes on the map to secure another base.
Okay, some good points there. And I actually rather like Colosseum and and Katrina, which also have have safe backdoor nats. But both also have nice open main front doors, which opens up more room (literally) for counter-play. On the other hand, God's Garden and Central Plains at least offer players some nice cliffs to drop-harass the backdoor. Crossing Field currently hasn't even got a muta cliff/ovi spot there. On the other hand, the front door looks hard to secure early on in PvZ. So I would expect Lurker contains on the small ramp to be strong. I guess I'd need to see in practice how it actually pans out.
Congratz bro! Very well deserved! Our foreigner mapmakers make so many awesome maps and yet they do not get the attention they should get, because they aren't used in korean leagues. So happy for you JungleTerrain! Let's hope it gets through the popularity vote.
Btw, this should be the first time ever that a foreign map could potentially be used in a korean event or am I wrong?
Really awesome that you've made it this far in the process. Hope the map makes it to the big show, but even if it doesn't I'm in awe at what you've accomplished already.
On July 12 2017 07:15 chrisolo wrote: Congratz bro! Very well deserved! Our foreigner mapmakers make so many awesome maps and yet they do not get the attention they should get, because they aren't used in korean leagues. So happy for you JungleTerrain! Let's hope it gets through the popularity vote.
Btw, this should be the first time ever that a foreign map could potentially be used in a korean event or am I wrong?
Technically, the first foreign non-Blizzard map used in a Korean event was Cloud Kingdom in SC2 - but for BW/SC:R, yes.
On July 25 2017 00:58 ProtossGG wrote: Does anyone have a link to download all the new ASL maps? (crossing field / uzi sara / salamander) ... ob versions plz.
Are they the confirmed maps for ASL4?
Only one of those three are being chosen from what I know, theres voting going at afreeca to choose. Too bad, I'd prefer all three get picked, we need more variety.
On July 25 2017 00:58 ProtossGG wrote: Does anyone have a link to download all the new ASL maps? (crossing field / uzi sara / salamander) ... ob versions plz
To download at these links, you will see text on the top right of the page that looks like this 첨부파일 and it has either (1) or (2) next to it with a green arrow pointing down. This is where you download it, click on that and you will get .zip files with the corresponding map's normal melee version, observer version and a Jpeg picture of the map.
To download at these links, you will see text on the top right of the page that looks like this 첨부파일 and it has either (1) or (2) next to it with a green arrow pointing down. This is where you download it, click on that and you will get .zip files with the corresponding map's normal melee version, observer version and a Jpeg picture of the map.
EPT
I'm interested to see what is made when the pressure is on to rise to the top. Heck, maybe I'll make a map for the first time since 2004ish xD![[image loading]](http://stimg.afreecatv.com/NORMAL_BBS/7/15524207/250258e8e4daabad7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/pics/4660.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xYZ8v4r.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/de3a2Fc.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nBVPAfR.jpg)
Toad Stone
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ru29Uar.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gcdjITy.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I7hExZ7.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hEfZnx1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RTwIqJI.jpg)
