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Just when I thought I for sure could not learn anything new about BW, ZerO comes up with this little trick that shows bw's weird programming.
So ZerO was playing against a Terran and the T player gg's. Zero hits continue to play and casts swarm over some marine/medics.
He flies mutas over and to my surprise, the units end up dying O_O
WTF right?? In all these years playing bw, I've never seen mutas do damage under swarm.
So I went and tested it. It turns out mutas can actually splash units under swarm BUT only if you attack another air unit. In this case, he attacked his own mutas.
For some reason, splash still takes effect from a glauve wurm coming from an air-to-air attack but not an air-to-ground attack.
So if you attack a marine under swarm, the bouncing glauve wurms won't splash the other marines under the swarm.
Making this tidbit completely useless LOL.
![[image loading]](http://s29.postimg.org/z5t19kr7r/mutasplash2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s29.postimg.org/comvsrvev/mutasplash.jpg)
Well except for zvz if the scenario plays out where you are having a muta on muta battle over lings with swarm.
I guess if you play a lot of late game zvz, you might have noticed this effect, but I've never noticed it or seen it posted online before.
Just thought I'd share ^^
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I'm not sure it actually has any useful application in game, which is why we didn't know about it (ok maybe Bakuryu knew about it). Still very cool nonetheless, thanks for sharing.
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So much bw knowledge on this forum recently, feels good!
I gotta try this myself sometime.
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On April 07 2016 04:35 bioboyAT wrote:
So much bw knowledge on this forum recently, feels good!
I gotta try this myself sometime.
I just updated with screenshots ^^
It's so weird, what makes an ATA glauve wurm different than an ATG one?
Why would it be programmed any different? I have no idea lol
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maybe bw only checks on the first attack if a unit is under swarm or not
if you want to test it, just attack a ground unit outside of swarm, the glaive worm should damage units under swarm then
or bw doesn't bother at all to check this if it's an air attack, since swarm only affects ground units
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make extra overlords to bring into battle with you new meta!
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On April 07 2016 04:46 Qeet wrote:
maybe bw only checks on the first attack if a unit is under swarm or not
if you want to test it, just attack a ground unit outside of swarm, the glaive worm should damage units under swarm then
or bw doesn't bother at all to check this if it's an air attack, since swarm only affects ground units
OMG that didn't even occur to me!
I just tested it and you are absolutely correct!
![[image loading]](http://s28.postimg.org/6fc0lxb6l/muta3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s28.postimg.org/8imftlazh/muta4.jpg)
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That's crazy! Really cool tidbit ^^
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This is news to me :U
Although this might not come up,
it's handy to know.
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Maybe Swarm stops working if a player leaves the game
Or maybe not, premature posting 
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The bounce hits do damage if the original target is out of dark swarm, as posted above.
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The explanation for this is simple:
Cover effects (swarm/terrain) are only checked by the game engine on the initial attack. If it misses, no bounces will even occur, but if it hits, bounces are also guaranteed to hit.
Practical applications are of course rather limited, because bounces only deal 3/1 damage per hit, and that's not taking any armour into consideration. Hard to trade cost-efficient with that unless the enemy units are ground-only and cannot fight back.
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No, actually even if the initial muta shot misses, the bounces will hit and do damage.
The easiest way to test this is to hit a worker that dodges into a gas extractor.
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On April 07 2016 09:33 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
No, actually even if the initial muta shot misses, the bounces will hit and do damage.
The easiest way to test this is to hit a worker that dodges into a gas extractor.
no, i just tested this, when muta attks a unit under dark swarm, it counts as a miss and there are no bounces.
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
thought this was common knowledge
splash damage always did damage under swarm, u can try it with reavers too. I'm fairly sure the initial hit will miss but the aoe will hit.
-note i havent played broodwar in 6 years.
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On April 07 2016 10:49 CrownRoyal wrote:
thought this was common knowledge
splash damage always did damage under swarm, u can try it with reavers too. I'm fairly sure the initial hit will miss but the aoe will hit.
-note i havent played broodwar in 6 years.
No, you are misunderstanding the situation.
First off, mutas do NOT deal splash damage under swarm usually. ie: Late game zvz when one person chooses to use hydra/swarm vs muta/ling. If you have a bunch of mutas shooting hydras underswarm, none of them will get hit, splash or otherwise.
You can easily test this out by attacking units under swarm with mutas, nothing will get damaged even with the splash.
However, if the initial hit of the muta's attack is outside of swarm, the resulting bounce of the glaive wurm WILL deal damage to units under swarm.
Note: I initially thought this was only for muta's air-to-air bounce affecting units under swarm, but it turns out to be any hit outside of swarm will do damage.
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Amazing, thanks for sharing
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game is broken, GG David Kim's predecessor
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wow never seen this before!
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It's because muta attack is some kind of living being, and when you hit a ground unit it gets lost in the smoke, but attacking an air unit provides enough vision from the skies and makes muta attack see it's next target even when it's under swarm. End of story.
Btw. does that also work for double-covered units like borrowed lurker under swarm? 
Btw2. you can kill units under swarm in many ways (excl melee attack), out of witch most known are:
- firebat, nuke, splash from tank (for example when attacking your own unit), mines, irradiate, broodling, lurker, storm, reaver scrab, mind control.. did I miss anything? (except muta splash)
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On April 07 2016 16:10 kogeT wrote:It's because muta attack is some kind of living being, and when you hit a ground unit it gets lost in the smoke, but attacking an air unit provides enough vision from the skies and makes muta attack see it's next target even when it's under swarm. End of story. Btw. does that also work for double-covered units like borrowed lurker under swarm? Btw2. you can kill units under swarm in many ways (excl melee attack), out of witch most known are: - firebat, nuke, splash from tank (for example when attacking your own unit), mines, irradiate, broodling, lurker, storm, reaver scrab, mind control.. did I miss anything? (except muta splash)
Archons. I'm not 100% but I think Yamato works too.
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Yeah archon splash hits, but swarm nullifies a huge chunk of their damage. Yamato is a spell, so it will hit under swarm.
edit: i am really bad at reading
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On April 07 2016 09:33 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
No, actually even if the initial muta shot misses, the bounces will hit and do damage.
The easiest way to test this is to hit a worker that dodges into a gas extractor.
That's a different mechanic. It's not a miss, just a shot that does not deal damage because the target unit is temporarily removed.
On April 07 2016 10:49 CrownRoyal wrote:
thought this was common knowledge
splash damage always did damage under swarm, u can try it with reavers too. I'm fairly sure the initial hit will miss but the aoe will hit.
-note i havent played broodwar in 6 years.
This is also misconception, as Glaive Wurm bounces are technically not splash damage.
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lol this game will never be fully figured out. What's next, ultras can fly?
Best game ever.
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so knew zero about this? does this mean it was also korean progamer knowledge?
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Very cool, props on your powers of observation (and/or ZerO's).
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TLADT24920 Posts
It's not surprising if you think about it. The mutalisks can't hit anything on the ground affected by swarms thus their bounce is also ineffective because they can't get the first hit. However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm.
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this intrigues me that after so long u can still find stuff like this out in bw
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Know what this tech needs?
A good Use Map Settings map.
Leaderboards and shit.
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This isn't new, any glaive wurm hit that deals damage outside the defiler's smoke will make the chain attack deal damage to units inside the dark swarm.
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On April 08 2016 06:38 BigFan wrote:
However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm.
I'm pretty sure Dark Swarm affects air units just the same, since Hydra + Defiler is a good counter to Carriers
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On April 08 2016 13:17 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 06:38 BigFan wrote:
However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm. I'm pretty sure Dark Swarm affects air units just the same, since Hydra + Defiler is a good counter to Carriers
I think he meant that Dark Swarm doesn't protect flying units.
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On April 08 2016 13:28 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 13:17 GoShox wrote:On April 08 2016 06:38 BigFan wrote:
However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm. I'm pretty sure Dark Swarm affects air units just the same, since Hydra + Defiler is a good counter to Carriers I think he meant that Dark Swarm doesn't protect flying units.
Oops, good call
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Had no idea, but Qeet's guess was good and what I was thinking too. So you can hit marines on the edge of swarm and get a little damage on the ones in swarm, I guess. Could come up in a rare circumstance.
Calling the muta's attack a kind of splash damage sounds really wrong. A bouncing attack is not the same as splash  The reasons this works under swarm and splash works under swarm are also totally different.
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Brood war is always full of surprises every year i'll find at least one new quirk, great find.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On April 08 2016 13:35 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 13:28 Jealous wrote:On April 08 2016 13:17 GoShox wrote:On April 08 2016 06:38 BigFan wrote:
However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm. I'm pretty sure Dark Swarm affects air units just the same, since Hydra + Defiler is a good counter to Carriers I think he meant that Dark Swarm doesn't protect flying units. Oops, good call
yep, jealous is correct. I meant that if the first muta hit connects with say, another air unit (since they aren't protected by swarm), the bounce should still connect to units in the swarm and cause damage.
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Really cool! Did not know that!
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could this because the swarm is only effective to auto attacks and the bounce is registered as an ability?
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Mutas are like the most interesting unit in the game. Whole muta micro concept is like playing an alternative game in itself. Utilizing Hold, Attack, Patrol, and Move (as M on keyboard) is like playing some kind of fighting game and making combos. To that you have to add the constant movement and whole range concept (you should execute different commands based on specific position/range/fighting different units), and to complicate even more you have those small tricks like attacking your own units/building for bounce or fighting units under swarm.
Geez I love brood war.
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Fantastic! This will be useful the next time my mnm+ tank army gets swarmed.... oh wait
On April 08 2016 06:38 BigFan wrote:
It's not surprising if you think about it. The mutalisks can't hit anything on the ground affected by swarms thus their bounce is also ineffective because they can't get the first hit. However, units in the air aren't affected by swarm (last I checked, could be wrong lol) thus since the first hit connects, the bounce will count even if a unit is under the swarm.
Hindsight bias trumps trumps BF once again Your reasoning is wrong. There's no reason for the bounce to affect the unit under swarm because in one situation but not the other.
It's basically a bug in the programming of dark swarm because it only blocks the first hit and not the following bounces.
ie if first hit goes through, everything goes through.
if first hit get's blocked, everything gets blocked,
which shouldn't be the case
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EPT
