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TLADT24920 Posts
On June 22 2017 00:40 r33k wrote:
Flash's apm is so much lower than I thought it would be! Also I never thought it would happen but it's really bothering me seeing from a terran's perspective how frequent scans can be...
what? He was averaging about 350 apm lol. That's pretty fast. How much did you think it would be?
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
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On June 20 2017 03:44 onlystar wrote:FlaSh vs Larva korhal link youtu.be starts 31:00 high quality game.. + Show Spoiler +god did it again, mighty bio force pulls a comeback from being far behind
That was a fantastic game. I also highly recommend it. You can also watch it from Jeadong stream who was observing it. Just got to Jeadong stream thread. Here is the link
www.youtube.com
Tha game starts around 38:40
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400
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On June 22 2017 06:10 Ares[Effort] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400
think you guys are mixing up Eapm and apm
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Netherlands5888 Posts
In Flash's case it doesn't matter if you speak about apm or eapm, it's the same. 
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On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
In what world does Bisu not use his apm for useful things? He's one of the strongest multi-taskers in the game.
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In Shine's world I presume.
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On June 22 2017 05:23 Lebesgue wrote:That was a fantastic game. I also highly recommend it. You can also watch it from Jeadong stream who was observing it. Just got to Jeadong stream thread. Here is the link www.youtube.comTha game starts around 38:40
I think you linked the wrong video
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
i saw just a game flash vs Free and another game Flash vs Snow, i have to say that Protoss players dont like to upgrade the units for some reason even having a lot of money.
Free won the game but i think increasing the upgrades in your army should be better than just spamming zzzzgggg
is there any calculation how much would it takes a zealot to die if it has FULL 3-3-3 upgrade?
another thing. protoss players even having 2k in minerals they just put 1-2 cannon in their expo, this is nothing for 12 vultures.
i saw snow doing like 4 cannons per expo witch is a lot better to prevent Vulture / Probe trading.
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On June 22 2017 19:21 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 05:23 Lebesgue wrote:On June 20 2017 03:44 onlystar wrote:FlaSh vs Larva korhal link youtu.be starts 31:00 high quality game.. + Show Spoiler +god did it again, mighty bio force pulls a comeback from being far behind That was a fantastic game. I also highly recommend it. You can also watch it from Jeadong stream who was observing it. Just got to Jeadong stream thread. Here is the link www.youtube.comTha game starts around 38:40 I think you linked the wrong video
I've just checked, and this is the right video. Just scroll to 38:50. The game at 31:00 is FvJ.
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On June 23 2017 23:33 BonitiilloO wrote:
i saw just a game flash vs Free and another game Flash vs Snow, i have to say that Protoss players dont like to upgrade the units for some reason even having a lot of money.
Free won the game but i think increasing the upgrades in your army should be better than just spamming zzzzgggg
is there any calculation how much would it takes a zealot to die if it has FULL 3-3-3 upgrade?
another thing. protoss players even having 2k in minerals they just put 1-2 cannon in their expo, this is nothing for 12 vultures.
i saw snow doing like 4 cannons per expo witch is a lot better to prevent Vulture / Probe trading.
You have to take into account that a Protoss need to pay attention to all the expansions and you need many things to do, defend, attack, etc.. You don't have time for that when the Terran is pushing. And in PvT the Protoss need to play as Zerg and get many expansions for resources or you are just going to die.
Also Free and Snow have high APM. Imagine how with that APM they forget things, so they give priority to producing more units that at the end is what makes the difference in PvT, P need to have always more units than T.
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On June 24 2017 02:10 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 19:21 Scaramanga wrote:On June 22 2017 05:23 Lebesgue wrote:On June 20 2017 03:44 onlystar wrote:FlaSh vs Larva korhal link youtu.be starts 31:00 high quality game.. + Show Spoiler +god did it again, mighty bio force pulls a comeback from being far behind That was a fantastic game. I also highly recommend it. You can also watch it from Jeadong stream who was observing it. Just got to Jeadong stream thread. Here is the link www.youtube.comTha game starts around 38:40 I think you linked the wrong video I've just checked, and this is the right video. Just scroll to 38:50. The game at 31:00 is FvJ.
Omg thanks for pointing out that game it's so sick.
Here is the correct timestamps for both btw
crazy Flash FPVOD + Show Spoiler +
or you can watch JD obs that same game at
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 23 2017 23:33 BonitiilloO wrote:
i saw just a game flash vs Free and another game Flash vs Snow, i have to say that Protoss players dont like to upgrade the units for some reason even having a lot of money.
Free won the game but i think increasing the upgrades in your army should be better than just spamming zzzzgggg
is there any calculation how much would it takes a zealot to die if it has FULL 3-3-3 upgrade?
another thing. protoss players even having 2k in minerals they just put 1-2 cannon in their expo, this is nothing for 12 vultures.
i saw snow doing like 4 cannons per expo witch is a lot better to prevent Vulture / Probe trading.
4 cannons will still get mauled by vultures btw.
While usually i consider upgrades to be pretty big vs Mech for most races 3 extra armor isnt gonna save you when tanks get +15 damage for 3 upgrades and vultures get +6 goliaths of course get +3 for ground but +12 for air.
dragoons will regardless get 3 shot by +3 tanks even fully upgraded, and zealots will get killed at the same rate/probably slightly faster by vultures anyway
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On June 24 2017 04:18 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 23:33 BonitiilloO wrote:
i saw just a game flash vs Free and another game Flash vs Snow, i have to say that Protoss players dont like to upgrade the units for some reason even having a lot of money.
Free won the game but i think increasing the upgrades in your army should be better than just spamming zzzzgggg
is there any calculation how much would it takes a zealot to die if it has FULL 3-3-3 upgrade?
another thing. protoss players even having 2k in minerals they just put 1-2 cannon in their expo, this is nothing for 12 vultures.
i saw snow doing like 4 cannons per expo witch is a lot better to prevent Vulture / Probe trading. 4 cannons will still get mauled by vultures btw. While usually i consider upgrades to be pretty big vs Mech for most races 3 extra armor isnt gonna save you when tanks get +15 damage for 3 upgrades and vultures get +6 goliaths of course get +3 for ground but +12 for air. dragoons will regardless get 3 shot by +3 tanks even fully upgraded, and zealots will get killed at the same rate/probably slightly faster by vultures anyway
but still is better than leaving a base alone and lose 10-15 probes...
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APM number really doesn't have much to do with speed. Realistically, you would never need much more than 200, except with occasional surges microing your heart out in fights. Super micro moments aside such as with large group of MM, nobody plays much faster than about 200 relevant actions a minute.
Anything beyond that is purely spam/unit cycling. I've got plenty of Bisu replays where his apm is around 260-280, and we already know he is the best multitasker in the world. You're not going to try to tell me someone like Rush or hero, both 400+ apm, is in the same neck of the woods in terms of speed as Bisu, right? Guys like hero and Rush just keep their fingers cycling groups a hell of a lot more than someone like Bisu.
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On June 22 2017 06:27 onlystar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 06:10 Ares[Effort] wrote:On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400 think you guys are mixing up Eapm and apm
Nah. EAPM numbers are almost never much above 200. Nobody sniffs 300 eapm. Hell nobody really sniffs 250eapm except in short, micro intensive TvZ games. Most of the super fast guys are generally between 200-220 though.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On June 24 2017 04:55 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 06:27 onlystar wrote:On June 22 2017 06:10 Ares[Effort] wrote:On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400 think you guys are mixing up Eapm and apm Nah. EAPM numbers are almost never much above 200. Nobody sniffs 300 eapm. Hell nobody really sniffs 250eapm except in short, micro intensive TvZ games. Most of the super fast guys are generally between 200-220 though.
can confirm. The best eapm I've seen is like 225 or something. Having said that, I can see the benefits of having higher apm and I don't trust the eapm counter to be that accurate. Chances are that it's higher than what gets recorded. Then there's the argument of how you measure it and what do you remove etc...
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On June 24 2017 05:34 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 04:55 L_Master wrote:On June 22 2017 06:27 onlystar wrote:On June 22 2017 06:10 Ares[Effort] wrote:On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400 think you guys are mixing up Eapm and apm Nah. EAPM numbers are almost never much above 200. Nobody sniffs 300 eapm. Hell nobody really sniffs 250eapm except in short, micro intensive TvZ games. Most of the super fast guys are generally between 200-220 though. Chances are that it's higher than what gets recorded. Then there's the argument of how you measure it and what do you remove etc...
This part especially I agree with. I think eapm is a much more relevant metric than apm overall; but it's subject to certain aspects of spam as well. If you just 1a2a3a4a'ed as much as possible I'm sure you could play a 200+ eapm game, but it wouldn't really be indicative of insane mechanics normally associated with eapm of 200+.
Beyond that yea, it's just what do you filter. If you look at BWRepInfo the goal is basically to filter out actions that are likely spam, so it filters out actions like "select not followed be a command". Makes sense overall, but I'm sure it occasionally misses things like a player clicking on a unit to see how much health the unit has left. I usually just state that eapm generally correlates with micro and mechanics, but isn't guarantee anything.
A good way of thinking about it is that apm is a weak correlation between mechanics/multitasking ability, whereas eapm is a relatively strong correlation between mechanics/multitasking. I've played plenty of 250 apm players that are slow players. I've almost never played someone with 140eapm that felt slow.
Having said that, I can see the benefits of having higher apm
In all honesty, I have a hard time seeing this, beyond having the minimum needed to be effectively doing anything. I really don't think there is any benefit at all to having 250 apm versus 300 apm, and certainly not 300 apm vs 400 apm. Perhaps there is a small argument to be made in that players with high apm are cycling control groups more and thus slightly more likely to notice attacks/dts/harass, but that's a pretty minimal effect.
The issue with apm is that, taken by itself, tells you absolutely nothing. It's just too weak of a correlation. If you tell me a guy has 400apm, he could be anywhere from EffOrt to a D- player that idles 4scvs off of on base and routinely forgets his second depot (note: I have literally seen this happen. 420 avg apm for a 13' game, looked slower than many 30apm players).
EDIT: I really wish someone could get BWRepInfo working with 1.18; I do miss being able to check eapm after games.
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On June 24 2017 06:00 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2017 05:34 BigFan wrote:On June 24 2017 04:55 L_Master wrote:On June 22 2017 06:27 onlystar wrote:On June 22 2017 06:10 Ares[Effort] wrote:On June 22 2017 05:05 BonitiilloO wrote:
FlaSh apm is about 340+ average that pretty fast for a terran player, i think he is the fastest terran player atm.
which i think is the reason why he is so good with terran, for instance , Bisu is like 320+ apm in every game
but he doesnt use he apm in usefull things like FlaSh does.
Rush and Last are higher ~400 think you guys are mixing up Eapm and apm Nah. EAPM numbers are almost never much above 200. Nobody sniffs 300 eapm. Hell nobody really sniffs 250eapm except in short, micro intensive TvZ games. Most of the super fast guys are generally between 200-220 though. Chances are that it's higher than what gets recorded. Then there's the argument of how you measure it and what do you remove etc... This part especially I agree with. I think eapm is a much more relevant metric than apm overall; but it's subject to certain aspects of spam as well. If you just 1a2a3a4a'ed as much as possible I'm sure you could play a 200+ eapm game, but it wouldn't really be indicative of insane mechanics normally associated with eapm of 200+. Beyond that yea, it's just what do you filter. If you look at BWRepInfo the goal is basically to filter out actions that are likely spam, so it filters out actions like "select not followed be a command". Makes sense overall, but I'm sure it occasionally misses things like a player clicking on a unit to see how much health the unit has left. I usually just state that eapm generally correlates with micro and mechanics, but isn't guarantee anything. A good way of thinking about it is that apm is a weak correlation between mechanics/multitasking ability, whereas eapm is a relatively strong correlation between mechanics/multitasking. I've played plenty of 250 apm players that are slow players. I've almost never played someone with 140eapm that felt slow. In all honesty, I have a hard time seeing this, beyond having the minimum needed to be effectively doing anything. I really don't think there is any benefit at all to having 250 apm versus 300 apm, and certainly not 300 apm vs 400 apm. Perhaps there is a small argument to be made in that players with high apm are cycling control groups more and thus slightly more likely to notice attacks/dts/harass, but that's a pretty minimal effect. The issue with apm is that, taken by itself, tells you absolutely nothing. It's just too weak of a correlation. If you tell me a guy has 400apm, he could be anywhere from EffOrt to a D- player that idles 4scvs off of on base and routinely forgets his second depot (note: I have literally seen this happen. 420 avg apm for a 13' game, looked slower than many 30apm players). EDIT: I really wish someone could get BWRepInfo working with 1.18; I do miss being able to check eapm after games.
I know the easiest way to cheat eapm is in the fact it registers more than i think 2? hotkey uses in a row as spam, but you could easily beat it by 1m2m3m4m5m m being move and have high eapm all the time.
I mean i was only C rank at best and could still have 190? eapm in TvZ by just moving even just a tiny bit every time i hit a hotkey
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EPT
