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I think people who come to BW for the first time should first play some 3v3 and make BW friends ^_^ that's how I started!
getting straight into ICCup 1v1 is pretty brutal... even for a SC2 player unless you are Diamond/Master. It's too hard. Or, pick your opponents / go to D-. Or endure and get better but yeah you might not enjoy it too much at first. Well should keep in mind "D" is not really "D". Think of D as "Diamond"  haha ; seriously it's just unpredictable the skill level of someone you play at D if you don't pick
personally I think it's a real problem for newcomers or people who are actually D level on Iccup, isn't it? it's the uncomfortable skill level to be at
I remember my friend who had quite a bit of BW experience, about 1000 games of 1v1 (on bnet + Iccup), he only reached D+ and that's not for lack of trying to get C-
you just need a lot of experience and most importantly skill to play at D/D+ level on ICCup.
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If i see your hosted game I'll probably lie about my best rank because it's fucking hard to get a game on iccup 
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I always tell new players to watch replays so that they can learn the build orders and how to react to certain strategies. It is much easier to learn from watching replays than to read the liquipedia because games do not always flow the way you want them to. Watching how good players react and adapt to stuff that mess up their gameplay will help alot.
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On December 18 2015 05:44 Siz)Beggar wrote:
losing is the biggest part of bw take every loss as a learning lesson and try to learn from the mistakes youve made and what your opponent did right
Pretty much this. I had a lot of fun losing in BW back when I laddered, it was a great learning experience.
That being said, I could see why many are not interested in losing their first 50 games to reach any level of skill.
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Can't say it's BroodWar as a whole but ICCup is a huge turn off. After 7years of not playing, I played around 100games on iccup in the past three weeks, and almost every player I met just goes for some huge all-in pre 8minutes if they aren't Korean, so it's pretty depressing to play on there. I was going to try to fund/host some old-school player tournament again (there was something like on here a while back iirc) for a few grand and stream/etc it, but the feeling on that server really turned me off ~_~
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On December 18 2015 21:20 lastshadow wrote:
Can't say it's BroodWar as a whole but ICCup is a huge turn off. After 7years of not playing, I played around 100games on iccup in the past three weeks, and almost every player I met just goes for some huge all-in pre 8minutes if they aren't Korean, so it's pretty depressing to play on there. I was going to try to fund/host some old-school player tournament again (there was something like on here a while back iirc) for a few grand and stream/etc it, but the feeling on that server really turned me off ~_~
That's the main reason why even foreigners should simply play on fish. Sure, the level on there is ridiculous, but you'll learn twice as much in half the amount of games in comparison to iccup.
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On December 18 2015 21:45 pEcul!Ar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 21:20 lastshadow wrote:
Can't say it's BroodWar as a whole but ICCup is a huge turn off. After 7years of not playing, I played around 100games on iccup in the past three weeks, and almost every player I met just goes for some huge all-in pre 8minutes if they aren't Korean, so it's pretty depressing to play on there. I was going to try to fund/host some old-school player tournament again (there was something like on here a while back iirc) for a few grand and stream/etc it, but the feeling on that server really turned me off ~_~ That's the main reason why even foreigners should simply play on fish. Sure, the level on there is ridiculous, but you'll learn twice as much in half the amount of games in comparison to iccup.
fish is a fine server but i think it doesn't make sense to play there up to a certain skill level. The people that get crushed on ICCup on low ranks defenitely don't need to play on fish. For me ICCup still works fine, i find plenty of opponents and those do also play macro games. So i can't share this sentiment.
As many before me have pointed out,the question is, what do you expect from ladder games? Ladder games are not meant to give every player the best possible training partner. In ladder play, you are able to see how good you are and how far you can make it. It's the nature of the beast that lower ranks will face much more players who are a lot better then them (and who are transitioning through the rank as Elegant pointed out).
From experience i can say, that improving and being motivated for the game for me always worked best, when i had friends and clanmates to practice with.
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I agree with you Ty2, about playing vs less skilled players.
Actually when I play BW nowadays, I personally like to try and play personal strats that I'm not sure if they necessarily work that well at high level of play. I'm fine with that because I prefer playing a very adaptative game instead of standard optimized, and in the end some of what I do still works all right at decently high levels, so I just explore and try to understand how good or not these strats can be. And like you said, playing against less skilled players is a great way to start off with such creative play and I believe it gives them fun games as well. I think there is this trap for newer players of trying to play the standard game from the get go and it's not as fun as discovering possibilities of the game through kind of playing them all, which actually does the job of building understanding of the game as a whole that makes you good at making good decisions even when you are playing more standard later.
I read some find it hard to find a game on ICCup? I'm not having much trouble, I guess if you can't host it's difficult? Forward port 6112! (damn, still have to do this in 2015 lol, I'm sure we lose players because of this kind of thing^^)
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Brood War is really difficult man.
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Japan11286 Posts
Maybe it's because people lose in manner that's shocking to them. Guys new to rts might go like "okay i have my 4th marine out, time to make another supply depot *11 mutas appear and massacre him* wtf, how did he do that?". Other rts guys might go like, "okay the guide says zealots are good vs tanks *runs into tank line and dies* but it was supposed to work!?"
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Canada11395 Posts
On December 18 2015 18:28 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 00:27 WrathSCII wrote:On December 17 2015 23:38 Cele wrote:On December 17 2015 23:22 WrathSCII wrote:
As a D class, when I make a game 1v1 with the name "D", I expect someone who is "D" level to join not a fucking smurf C hiding behind shady 1000/1000. So how about the likes of you stop smurfing our games? yeah it's a problem. I know it can be very frustrating if you're just looking for opponents of your skill range and you meet a couple of a lot better players in a row. I recommend looking for pratice partners here in the practice partner thread or ingame. But that doesnt help with laddering. Some people look down upon it, but i actually don't think it's a bad idea to check the account on ICCup before playing. Some people use it to dodge and farm easy wins, but i think it makes sense for D ranks to sort some opponents out beforehand. But you shouldn't make a bad habit of it and start to only look for easy wins as it won't help you improve in the long run  Not looking for easy win. Just looking for games that I have an actual chance of winning. Not playing the best you have or not will end up the same. Lol did I play you yesterday...? --> EleGant[AoV] The plain fact is, to get to a higher rank, whether that's C or A, you have to play against lower ranks first. That is literally all your rank means- that you beat all the players below said rank often enough to be promoted. I do resent being moaned at an insulted by angry D-rankers when I jump on to enjoy a game of BW after being totally inactive for months, and they expect me to already have a C+ and respond by insulting me and ranting about my noobhunting ways. It's not my problem, or fault. Honestly, you also forget that we've all been there. We have all been D, being bashed upon and having a hard time. And even now when we get to our rank it will happen to us still, to varying degrees of course. I know that when I get to C+, there are plenty of B- and above guys who will play me and probably win. And rightly so! How on earth else are they meant to get a game of Starcraft, and get to their rank?? Take it easy, and watch the replay.
As a D ranker, I 100% agree with this. The way I deal with an overwhelming loss is to check the iccup rank after the game and see: Oh they were C+ last season (or 5 seasons ago), oh well. The only time to get upset is when you see their history has hundreds of games against D's with constant rank resets once they hit a certain high rank and little to no games played against people of the D level. At that point, they are intentionally trying to play against D's and no one else. But with a ladder reset every 3 or is it 4? months... the higher ranks have to play the lower ranks to get back up there, so there is no reason to get mad at people doing exactly what the system requires them to do.
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On December 19 2015 01:59 c3rberUs wrote:
Maybe it's because people lose in manner that's shocking to them. Guys new to rts might go like "okay i have my 4th marine out, time to make another supply depot *11 mutas appear and massacre him* wtf, how did he do that?". Other rts guys might go like, "okay the guide says zealots are good vs tanks *runs into tank line and dies* but it was supposed to work!?"
Hence my emphasis on replays, so that new players know the early BO's and stuff like that ^^
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how does this thread have replies ._.
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On December 19 2015 04:47 Ty2 wrote:Here's a good thread: www.teamliquid.netI thought the thread might remind people that it's okay to lose terribly to a player equally matched to you when really there is no sign of evidence the player was just a higher ranking player from the previous season. Here's a good quote I look up to sometimes: + Show Spoiler +"Don't worry... sometimes, you have a bad day and get owned a lot. But that's in the past already, so it has nothing to do with how well you can still do in the future." It's all about the fun of the game and if you attach your own personal skill to the amount of points you have you will become constantly unhappy with the game. Just be happy.
I dunno about the article you linked. Imho Nina does a better job there writing a pointed satire then really adressing the issue.
I think it's a factual thing, that BW is a game that requires a very high frustration tolerance from beginners and that ladder play is not the best thing to get them hooked into the game. And i think we would have much more new players, if we could do something about it.
Back in 2008-2009 i think instarcraft.de had a bunch of motivated staff members who decided to set up an extra server and offer a training programm for lower skill players (up to D+ iirc) on that, with Coaches, torunaments and everything. That was a pretty cool project, coz it gave those players an incentive to train as well as seasoned Coaches who would help them out with fundamentals. The server was called "Zerrush's Lair" and it was brilliant. If we had something like this today, it would be great. But im not sure if there's the manpower to do something like this.
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as much as I enjoy trying to get better at this game getting smacked down over and over by blatant smurfs is extremely disheartening
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It's only disheartening if you care more about winning than improving in my opinion. I take every loss at face value. I played worse than my opponent, I was lacking in mechanics/strategy/tactics.
However, if you're just here to play a fun game, then I agree with the sentiment. Perhaps it would be better to just find some friends and casually play melee games with them though.
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That in this bygone age of BW people still care about such things... fills me with determination : )
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EPT
