|
Just some ramblings about stuff I want people to comment on.
So as of this month i have been playing zerg for exactly a year now, my apm/multitasking is still low, 170 ish, but I am able to most of the time, react correctly in most situations i face, which is how i manage to win at all. When I look at foreign zergs there are several types, the slow/smart zergs: Incontrol/kaaz/testie/mondragon's zvp/crayon, the polish zergs: hullah/paranoid (mass hatch mass drones mass everything don't need hive or most tech), the korean types: midian/day/sen, really good mechanically, set builds, very "clean". In comparison, when I watch the baba, ygclan replays, people such as nsp_destiny, kt.mgw)ggaemo, 7color-raid, etc I feel make really stupid decisions like, really often, even in games they win. Stupid decisions i'm sure most top foreigners wouldn't make. But at the same time they're probably better or equal to most top foreign zergs. Why? Because they click fast and have half a brain. And that's something i'm disappointed about. That so many korean amateuers can be dumb starcraft players, but because they've played the game 8 hours a day for 5 years, they can be good at multitasking and beat someone else who's practiced half the time (foreigners) just by being faster, not smarter. And for a foreigner that wants to become good, he has to be 2x as smart to make up for mechanics.
For example, sorry to pick on you but, Midian, he's both fast and has the foreign brain, and in turn during his prime he was top 3 or maybe even the best amateur zvp/zvt? on west. Yet he's for sure played way less than a lot of koreans. So essentially, I want to make the assumption that in general, most top foreigners are smarter than most top amateur koreans.
In my own case, I know that to become good I either have to be faster or smarter, although i know im probably destined to be a slow zerg. Only way I can get faster is by playing for another year, which i don't want to do. Only way to get smarter is, well, by being smart, learning from random replays and advice from gosus, figuring out things, which I think should be rewarded more than getting raped by retarded 300 apm terrans. Anyways thats my two cents, if starcraft was more strategy and less mechanics, I feel like it would be more fair and rewarding for the people that don't spend ridiculous hours on it while gaining largely nothing. And progamers will have to distinguish themselves more on true innovation, strategy, reaction, than practice. I don't know if i made any sense, im on 0 hour sleep and probably being midianish but right now thats how i feel. comments?
|
Savior is one of the slowest pro-gamers of all time. You just need to find a style to match your significant strengths and progress with it ~_~
Hell savior is not that innovative, but very intelligent in everything he does. His macro/micro, imo, is sub-par when compared to the macro of gorush or the micro of julyzerg. (But it's still damn good though ;P, coming through probably, years of practice.)
IMO, zerg is the race where it requires the most intuition and timing. Starting with that wouldn't be a bad idea.
|
is awesome32277 Posts
I HATE LT.
Always happens the same, i got so used to the new map trends that i play more aggressively and never take care of my cliff in neither 1v1 nor 2v2. So usually i'm winning and i see my cliff dropped and totally covered in turrets + whatever. I feel like banging my head against the walls. I usually just lift or leave the expo and counter.
I HATE LT
|
at the same time, i think it was hot_bid thats said, by being faster, it makes starcraft more of a sport, cuz the pros can do thing we can't do physically, which also makes sense. I guess for any art, you have to put lots and lots of time energy work into it. Or else it would be easy and shallow and anyone can be good at it.
|
why is being smarter superior to being good mechanically?
theyre strengths, those who have both are pros, or very very good. beyond that its a balance. starcraft has become more mechanical so it turns out its better to have good mechanical skills and enough strategy to get by than the other way around.
|
On November 16 2006 12:45 QuietIdiot wrote:
Savior is one of the slowest pro-gamers of all time. You just need to find a style to match your significant strengths and progress with it ~_~
Hell savior is not that innovative, but very intelligent in everything he does. His macro/micro, imo, is sub-par when compared to the macro of gorush or the micro of julyzerg. (But it's still damn good though ;P, coming through probably, years of practice.)
IMO, zerg is the race where it requires the most intuition and timing. Starting with that wouldn't be a bad idea.
IMO savior is just a faster "slow/smart" zerg. He's very very innovative, especially his all gas no lings zvt style. It changed the way zvt is played as much as fe changed tvz. Above that he's gifted at reacting, countering, just intelligent overall, which makes him the best zerg in the world. As for zerg macro, a 160 apm zerg can produce the same amount of units gorush can. What makes a zerg good at macroing is expo timing, drone count, unit management, not apm/multitasking like terran.
|
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
On November 16 2006 12:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And progamers will have to distinguish themselves more on true innovation, strategy, reaction, than practice.
They do. When was the last time a purely mechanical player won anything major?
|
For example hullah can get more units with 120 apm than pretty much every other faster zerg. Blackman has sick macro too but hes 400. And also savior is mid 200s apm which is plenty fast.
|
On November 16 2006 12:52 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2006 12:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And progamers will have to distinguish themselves more on true innovation, strategy, reaction, than practice. They do. When was the last time a purely mechanical player won anything major?
Chojja, whom from his replays vs super, and various vods ive seen him, is i think one of those "dumb" zergs. again in my humble opinion, i think what separates a "dumb" zerg from a "smart" one is zvt, which is all timing reaction builds, not just massing and abusing. That's why chojja and, bad example but suncow are significantly better at zvp than zvt.
edit: zergstory_namoo would be another example
|
also i never experience this frustration more when im tvzing. I lose to a lot of bad zergs simply because i physically can't hotkey, reinforce, macro fast enough. Sure I can start being gay like kouros[fou] but i don't want to play that way
|
I don`t get it. What is this about? You are basically saying if you are decent in bw and low apm player you are always going to get raped by dumb 400 apm player?
Are you training to be pro? If you are then that is something you have to face, and fight against. You have to evolve as a player, and learn, learn, learn. If if was so easy, we all would be pros.
|
On November 16 2006 13:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:
also i never experience this frustration more when im tvzing. I lose to a lot of bad zergs simply because i physically can't hotkey, reinforce, macro fast enough. Sure I can start being gay like kouros[fou] but i don't want to play that way
being able to hotkey/reinforce/macro is a skill. you're losing because you're not good enough.
i dont know why people value strategy more than mechanics. you need both to play this game.
|
On November 16 2006 12:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Only way I can get faster is by playing for another year, which i don't want to do.
so you basically want to become better but you dont want to work for it.
if thats your attitude i dont know why the hell you were flaming the guy who made the 'General BW' thread, bcuz that guy had good intentions while this whiny little thread of yours is just a waste of space.
|
|
|
Braavos36387 Posts
i think this was a good discussion and probably shouldn't have been closed because the thread creator said so.
i just think your expectations have to be adjusted to meet the growing skill level among the pros. the definition of "slow" and "fast" as well as "pro" and "amateur" has just changed. the base level of speed required to be “good” has increased.
compare it to basketball, for instance… a decade or two ago most guards were barely taller than six feet, then came magic johnson and now look, we have guys like lebron who is 6’8” and can play guard. its evolution as the field gets better. there are just more players that can play with 250-300+ apm.
"strategy" is simply a word that is overvalued by people incapable of having the technical skills. for instance, i can be a physics expert, know the perfect technique to kick a soccer ball, and the perfect strategies for soccer offense and defense, but i’ll never be able to play as good as pele without the actual ability.
yes some pros are stupid and make dumb decisions, but is it easier to teach them a new strategy or whatever or is it easier for you to suddenly have 300 apm? i think that’ll answer your question about which is truly more valuable.
the POS coach when TL interviewed him a while back said that progaming development now is about finding fast guys, not strategically sound guys because strategy can always be taught. you can’t teach speed. yes you can get faster slowly but there’s a cap for most people.
nowadays, the speed seems to be a prerequisite, and strategy, practice and intuition get you to become great.
edit: and if you don't have that baseline speed, you can't really be even "very good." yes i know there are a few exceptions but they are very, very few.
|
Braavos36387 Posts
bump because this thread was reopened
someone should change the title to "true value of strategy" or something
edit: and to steve, the guy asked that his thread be reopened, check the closed
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
or "hot bid has serious pull with the mods"
big man around here
|
Sigh..
There people go again thinking that savior or oov are slow players because others have higher apm. All actions do not take equal amount of time. There, now you know! Nada can press 2345623456 twice when savior has selected one of hatcheries at an expansion and built drones and order them to mine, but what did nadas move accomplish with more APM compared to that one of savior? Savior progresses strategically and financially in his gameplan, while Nada only makes use of the resources he has at the moment. Thus Savior progresses faster in the game compared to Nada.
I'll agree though that a guy like Nada has a bit faster hands and fingers than Savior or oov, but he doesn't get much benefit from it the way he usually plays.
It's also not about brains. It's about preference. All progamers know how you win games, just like all mediocre players. You get more money, more units and tech faster use them better than your opponent etc. The difference is the amount of time they spend doing what and when, and this is from comfort. What they like to do and feel safe with and second nature to them they stick with.
Savior is NOT slow. LOL!
Or do you guys think a player like goodfriend is 30% faster than him and oov as well? Get real!
|
infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
haha I'm the one who made the General BW thread.
Ugh, I feel so far behind everyone who's been playing so much longer than me. #__<
I realize now from talking to a lot of TL members that I have so many things to work on. My main problem currently (I think) is dealing with pressure. Even if I'm a casual player, I'm sure I'll get better over time ^^;
|
On November 16 2006 12:48 IdrA wrote:
why is being smarter superior to being good mechanically?
theyre strengths, those who have both are pros, or very very good. beyond that its a balance. starcraft has become more mechanical so it turns out its better to have good mechanical skills and enough strategy to get by than the other way around.
I think this pretty much sums it up. Sad but true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
