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Bisutopia19295 Posts
On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what  Shine could? It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds. Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol. So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player. I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now. On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene. Viewers. There is no scene without viewers.
do people really care that much to see Savior play again?
My questions was more for people in this forum. But you did answer it for yourself too. So thanks for the honest answer. And I don't hate you for wanting to watch Savior. Obviously he was a great player.
Myself personally, I am ready for the scene to make new names and have new heroes. He was part a great era that existed long ago and Jaedong took over his throne. I'm excited to watch the next Jaedong rise in the BW 2.0 era. That is why I don't care if Savior plays. I guess I'm just thinking forward instead of being nostalgic. It's also why I still supported BW even when Bisu was gone. I am ready for the new era.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On December 03 2013 04:45 lemmata wrote:
On Afreeca, Savior's audience is dying compared to the other BW channels. As for the Chinese audience, to say that Savior is the one who made them show up is based on faulty reasoning. We don't know how many people would have shown up if Savior was not there. Given that Chinese people are awesome and love BW, I would guess that attendance levels would have been just fine without the presence of the match-fixer.
In general, I've found that Chinese fans care more about skill level than anything else when it comes to sports. Even when Yao Ming was an all-star, he moved less product in China than Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. They are far more sophisticated than people give them credit for because of the language barrier. I think that most Chinese fans would have been happier to get top class players instead of Savior. Of course, this part of my post is pure conjecture, but I am just pointing out that attributing high attendance to Savior's presence is not a sound logical argument.
I can confidently assure you that without Savior, the tournament, while still passable, would've attracted far, far less interest than it did.
On December 03 2013 04:47 thezanursic wrote:
Lets tone this down a notch and actually wait for Blizzard to respond before we continue this needlessly ardent discussion.
I would be extremely surprised if Blizzard responded to this at all with anything beyond a cursory non-message. My personal suspicion is that Blizzard had barely any knowledge of anything KeSPA is doing/claiming, and it will be far more likely for us to see Blizzard distance themselves from the situation than any real reaction to it. I doubt Blizzard has either the desire or the ability to involve itself in this.
On December 03 2013 04:51 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could? It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds. Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol. So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player. I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now. On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene. Viewers. There is no scene without viewers. My questions was more for people in this forum. But you did answer it for yourself too. So thanks for the honest answer. And I don't hate you for wanting to watch Savior. Obviously he was a great player. Myself personally, I am ready for the scene to make new names and have new heroes. He was part a great era that existed long ago and Jaedong took over his throne. I'm excited to watch the next Jaedong rise in the BW 2.0 era. That is why I don't care if Savior plays. I guess I'm just thinking forward instead of being nostalgic. It's also why I still supported BW even when Bisu was gone. I am ready for the new era.
That's a great attitude, but unfortunately I think it's a tad naive. What remains of the scene is built upon the old, and everything we have right now is pretty much a callback to the golden days of BW - the team tournaments we have are still organized by the old proleague teams, for example. As stands, the only people who are really playing/invovled in the scene are old BW pros/semi-pros, without a real influx of new amateurs. These are technically "new" names, but they're still old names in that they have been around, to varying degrees of prominence, in the old BW pro-scene.
At this point, realistically speaking, I think it will be impossible to have a wholly new scene without calling upon the memories of the old scene every step of the way, mainly because, well, the names we see today have a strong overlap with the names we saw three years ago.
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The fuck? This shit seriously pisses me off. KeSPA doesn't manage any BW-teams, they aren't hosting any BW leagues and, what's more, they're pretty much the reason that the current state of BW is what it is. And they still think they have the right to boss anyone (in BW) around?
Fuck savior, he shouldn't get any money -- but that doesn't give KeSPA the right to pull shit like this
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kespa should concentrate managing on their own leagues, especially when they abandoned brood war already.
But I understand, kespa is known for making silly decisions.
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I must say this is preaty funny.
Kespa waited that he wins the tournament to start complaining
LAMO
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Baa?21244 Posts
Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for 
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On December 03 2013 05:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for
I would be. Do they know each other well? Any insight into Savior wouls be interesting in my opinion.
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On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote:Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could? It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds. Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol. So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player. I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now. On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene. Viewers. There is no scene without viewers.
It's a little more complicated than just that though. Viewers are important to have a scene at all of course, but that's not everything. Viewers attract sponsors. Sponsors bring money. Money brings bigger, better, more visible tournaments, which in turn brings more viewers. Savior may bring viewers, but he also delegitimizes the scene. He scares away sponsors and their money. Other players refuse to participate in tournaments that include Savior, making the tournament smaller, worse, and less viewed. His mere presence is harmful to any kind of sustainability the reviving BW scene might be hoping to achieve.
Merely saying "there is no scene without viewers" doesn't address why viewers are important to the scene, the sorts of things viewers do for the scene and what all of the things the scene actually needs are. Just because he brings viewers doesn't mean that he isn't still harmful to the scene's legitimacy+status+image and inhibits its (re)growth. In the short term there may be people who want to see him play again, but this sort of short-sighted tolerance of someone who delegitimized the scene once already is further delegitimizing the scene+ Show Spoiler +(The whole scene becomes even more disreputable again because they don't care enough to keep him out. It(bw esports scene) says to the world we don't care that he made us untrustworthy because we didn't care about being trustworthy anyway. It makes the matchfixing scandal go from tragic misstep to he shat on the scene and not only did the scene not care but it went so far as to shit on itself again to bring him back [despite the name similarity he isn't Jesus and he shouldn't come back, he can't save the scene, only destroy it again]. BW deserves better, it deserves more. But if the BW scene truly wants him back, then I'm going to go cry in the corner for having wasted so much of my life on a scene that does not care one whit about itself. This sort of behavior makes me ASHAMED to call myself a fan of the BW scene. )
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This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc...
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On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote:
This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc...
"Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie.
On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance."
-translated fomos article regarding savior's + movie's participation (not 100% accurate)
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I'd rather have Savior play then have Blizzard stick their noses involved into the BW pro scene.
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TLADT24920 Posts
What I was planning to write has already been written so TL;DR I understand people not wanting Saviour to play, he should apologize since he apparently hasn't but KeSPA should have no say since the tournament is based in China. Doubt Blizzard would or can do anything since licenses and such aren't seen as being important in China either.
On December 03 2013 05:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for
yes please, would be interested.
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On December 03 2013 05:38 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote:
This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc... "Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie. On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance." -translated fomos article regarding savior's + movie's participation (not 100% accurate)
I see...thanks It seems the other kroean players, beast and pic are getting some flak too...
Poor pic... he won nothing going to china TT
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On December 03 2013 05:50 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:38 Stratos wrote:On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote:
This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc... "Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie. On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance." -translated fomos article regarding savior's + movie's participation (not 100% accurate) I see...thanks It seems the other kroean players, beast and pic are getting some flak too... Poor pic... he won nothing going to china TT
the prize of second place of 2v2 ?? T_T
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I don't understand why all of this discussion is being made on the basis that any tournament organiser of any Blizzard game needs to obtain a license.
The licensing requirement is purported to be required by Blizzard, but as far as I can tell, no court has upheld this requirement. KeSPA settled their dispute with Blizzard without obtaining a judgment from any court.
Moreover, AFAIK, there is not a single legal precedent anywhere in the world in which a tournament or any other televised broadcast of any proprietary tool or game being used is subject to licensing.
Meaning, KeSPA probably settled with Blizzard to minimize the damage to their reputation and ability to attract sponsors, and are now seeking to unleash the same injustice and undue burden on another tournament organiser.
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Canada11367 Posts
On December 02 2013 18:28 Hyeon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 18:24 rabidch wrote:
stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all It's blizzard game, not Chinese game. Blizzard had to allow and allowed chinese to host this. So? Chinese want to invite Savior? Then play Blood war, chinese are good at copying.
First, my argument against has nothing to do with Savior apologetics. At one point, I was of the view that he should be given a second chance, but I am now of the opinion that he is about as apologetic as Rob Ford. I don't harbour immense hatred towards him, but I don't want to see him back.
However, I don't think we should become so blinded by the end result (banning Savior) that we glaze over the issue with the means. This has zero to do with 'kespa and Blizzard should get lost', but I am concerned with the idea that a gaming company has so much power on who can or cannot play their game in what context once the game has been sold. Sure, ban hackers that are on Blizzard servers. But I dislike the idea of such far reaching influences especially for a game 15 years out of the box.
I'm not sure I like the idea of tourney licenses in the first place, divided out by Blizzard after you have already purchased the game. This seems to compound that precedent.
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This almost seems comical. KeSPA, Blizzard, and Savior... some weird combination of everyone who can go fuck themselves, arguing over a tournament they don't have any real power over.
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Baa?21244 Posts
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Doesn't matter how much Blizzard and Kespa yell, markets will find a way. If there's demand for Savior to play then he will play.
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On December 03 2013 06:18 Cheren wrote:
Doesn't matter how much Blizzard and Kespa yell, markets will find a way. If there's demand for Savior to play then he will play.
Yet the markets might work the other way when potential sponsors might be scared away again by the lingering stigma against him if he does participate in the scene more.
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EPT
