How can Matchfix guy play in official broodwar league? This is insane...
Anyway, someone will translate this...
Edit : 1. yes, it's $25,000. So it's more... shi.... 2. I found another Korean news that SCNTV didn't get license from China Blizzard. LOL 3. What i'd like to ask to you who blame KeSPA is, "do you want to support matchfix guy to revive BW?".
ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
Not sure if KeSPA asked/told Blizzard to stop Savior from playing before tournament started. This way it seems pretty silly after tournament is done or they dont care/follow BW scene at all.
On December 02 2013 18:17 Golgotha wrote: lmao unless kespa wants to hold their own BW tournament, they should just leave the Chinese scene the fuck alone.
100% agree with your statement , Kespa now not even related with BW for now....
stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all
On December 02 2013 18:24 rabidch wrote: stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all
It's blizzard game, not Chinese game. Blizzard had to allow and allowed chinese to host this.
Oh the irony. Kespa had done their own buisness and fought versus Blizzard for their rights to use Starcraft like they wanted, and now they cry how matchfixing players are ruining esport and Blizzard should take care of it, because it is their game and they have responsibility.
In real sport, if a player is banned cause of matchfixing, he is banned only from the federation he was in. Sure, most likely other associations will ban him too, as they are afraid of the negative image. But if a tournament host is ok with it, theres nothing wrong... (besides the emotional fact of viewers, like in internetfourm....)
If this happened in china, Blizz nor Kespa can't do shit .. hell, they wont indict a chinese company for major copyright infringement, what can this do?
On December 02 2013 18:24 rabidch wrote: stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all
It's blizzard game, not Chinese game. Blizzard had to allow and allowed chinese to host this.
So? Chinese want to invite Savior?
Then play Blood war, chinese are good at copying.
I think everyone gets the rages about savior. However, both Blizzard and KeSPA decided at one point to give up on Brood War. Personally, Blizzard died for me when they called up Sonic shortly before SSL, not to mention their role in the Copyright issue bullshit war against KeSPA. This was such a sloppy move. If any of the two punks try to interfere with BW again they should do it, because they want to support the scene. Furthermore, what does KeSPA think they do? It's not like they gave a crap about the foreign world in general. They chose SCII, so they should stick with it.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
So?
Let's put KFA as KeSPA Blizzard as FIFA Croatia league as Chinese league.
On December 02 2013 18:44 Hyeon wrote: okay, so let me tell you this.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
So?
Let's put KFA as KeSPA Blizzard as FIFA Croatia league as Chinese league.
answer?
Football =/= Broodwar
A better example: FIFA and KFA stopped caring about football, begin being all about basketball.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. KFA stopped doing football. FIFA stopped doing football. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
This is an expected follow-up to how savior's participation is perceived in Korea, I.e. unlike on TL, which is irrelevant, 30:1 people hate the idea of him making money in BW.
Now kespa and blizzard can use this opportunity to 1) send a message to all matchfixers 2) kick the dying dog that is BW.
Who should we be mad at? Savior is well aware of his presence hurting what's left of the scene but does he give a shit? He just had a great trip and made 25k. So much for your hero reviving BW.
move on already!! as any other sports, if someone is caught cheating there is a timeframe for the punishment and then you let them play again. give it up already kespa >.< I bet they have learnt their lesson
On December 02 2013 18:44 Hyeon wrote: okay, so let me tell you this.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
So?
Let's put KFA as KeSPA Blizzard as FIFA Croatia league as Chinese league.
answer?
In HNL (Croatian football leauge) matchfixing is normal, everybody does it.
On December 02 2013 18:54 ThePhan2m wrote: move on already!! as any other sports, if someone is caught cheating there is a timeframe for the punishment and then you let them play again. give it up already kespa >.< I bet they have learnt their lesson
Except he never apologized, if I understand correctly. I think people would be more likely to forgive somewhat if he apologized and never played BW again, but he keeps on making money from it so people keep hating. And I completely understand that.
Kespa, why don't you just mind your own business? How much money have you invested into BW lately? I would never support a BW tournament involving Savior, but if some organizer wants to involve him, then fine. If Kespa hadn't destroyed the BW scene, there wouldn't even have been a demand for Savior.
This is just a bunch of ppl on Kespa who is still butthurt about the matchfixing, and now they're trying to use their favourable position with Blizzard to punish Savior. This has nothing to do with them wanting a clean BW scene. If they really cared about BW, they would host a BW tournament. They just want to punish Savior, again, for what he did, which is pretty lame.
dont know why the chinese decided to invite abusers in their tour, but i dont think there is anything blizzard or kespa can do. the chinese orgas should know it better...
For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
On December 02 2013 19:11 figq wrote: Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
KeSPA and Blizzard will gangbang the chinese scene and make sure BW Asia Open doesn't happen for a long time. That's all Savior managed to do for this game. gj
On December 02 2013 19:11 figq wrote: Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
KeSPA and Blizzard will gangbang the chinese scene and make sure BW Asia Open doesn't happen for a long time. That's all Savior managed to do for this game. gj
Oh, and suddenly Blizzard even knows that BW exists?? And Kespa have anything to do with existing BW scene??
On December 02 2013 19:11 figq wrote: Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
KeSPA and Blizzard will gangbang the chinese scene and make sure BW Asia Open doesn't happen for a long time. That's all Savior managed to do for this game. gj
Oh, and suddenly Blizzard even knows that BW exists??
They know because by participating in this, Savior gave KeSPA a way to get back at BW. 30:1 koreans hate the idea of Savior making money in BW so they'll applaud this as Chinese BW gets a huge blow.
If a foreigner like me knew enough to guess something like this would happen it's clear Savior must have been aware as well. Does it surprise anyone he didn't give a shit? lol
On December 02 2013 19:11 figq wrote: Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
KeSPA and Blizzard will gangbang the chinese scene and make sure BW Asia Open doesn't happen for a long time. That's all Savior managed to do for this game. gj
Does China even care for licensing issues? It's not like this country is known to uphold international copy right laws and whatnot.
Futhermore, it's a bit too easy to blame all of this only on sAviOr ignoring the fact. It's not like this tournament happened out of a sudden, KeSPA could've tried to contact the Chinese before anything was set in stone, no? This is just a dick move.
On December 02 2013 19:11 figq wrote: Who is Kespa? ~_^ Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW. The only positive thing in their action, if any, is - wtf, "ded gaem?!" Not so ded anymore, as you can see! Lawyers are about to fight over it again. So it appears that the controversy/greatness of Savior can actually bring life to a scene, just you wait.
KeSPA and Blizzard will gangbang the chinese scene and make sure BW Asia Open doesn't happen for a long time. That's all Savior managed to do for this game. gj
Does China even care for licensing issues? It's not like this country is known to uphold international copy right laws and whatnot.
Futhermore, it's a bit too easy to blame all of this only on sAviOr ignoring the fact. It's not like this tournament happened out of a sudden, KeSPA could've tried to contact the Chinese before anything was set in stone, no? This is just a dick move.
Movie was invited but he turned it down upon hearing Savior would be participating. Then Savior didn't qualify so Movie accepted the invitation. But then sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so he became a unwanted company to Movie.
KeSPA probably didn't even see the tournament coming until there were photos of savior hugging everyone in China. - Why should they (if there was no savior)? If they'd attack that they'd get a lot of shit from BW fans. Once there's Savior, all that changes. I agree it'll be a dick move (if they shut it down entirely), but it's a dick move facilitated by Savior's participation.
Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
My huge problem is still that there are three parties I don't like at all - KeSPA, Blizzard and Savior. Everyone loses from this, I don't see how this is savior's fault alone. Blizzard, for now, has not posted an official statement, so I stop hating them for a moment. I still think it's super Kindergarten that a company suddenly drops the nuke hammer and does everything to shit on what's going on in the BW community, because one tournament in a foreign country they not really cared about until it was too late features a guy they blamed a lot for their own failures in the past, regardless of how bad savior was. If they would have actually followed a simple line and never did shit wrong, I could understand the reaction up to some point. It's not like they didn't censor interviews about by ex-Stars when these lost on purpose in WCG and then didn't follow up with any sanctions there. And yes, this did happen as well.
I'm sure a statement filled with rage pointing fingers at China would've done the trick, if phrased carefully. There's no need to threaten with legal consequences, especially if they can't be sure if that's going to work one way or the other, or what their buddy is eventually going to do. As greenelve pointed out earlier, it's really ironic.
On December 02 2013 19:20 Glioburd wrote: Why sAviOr couldn't play a foreign non-kespa league ?
this
I though Savior was banned on KeSPA events not Brood:War in general . And why the hell KeSPA even care if they decided to not promote bw in the first place.
KeSPA is like "Hey Blizzard you sued us for running a tournament without paying you royalties, but what about this particular Chinese tournament with a match fixer playing in it?"
On December 02 2013 19:36 GeckoXp wrote: My huge problem is still that there are three parties I don't like at all - KeSPA, Blizzard and Savior. Everyone loses from this, I don't see how this is savior's fault alone. Blizzard, for now, has not posted an official statement, so I stop hating them for a moment. I still think it's super Kindergarten that a company suddenly drops the nuke hammer and does everything to shit on what's going on in the BW community, because one tournament in a foreign country they not really cared about until it was too late features a guy they blamed a lot for their own failures in the past, regardless of how bad savior was. If they would have actually followed a simple line and never did shit wrong, I could understand the reaction up to some point. It's not like they didn't censor interviews about by ex-Stars when these lost on purpose in WCG and then didn't follow up with any sanctions there. And yes, this did happen as well.
I'm sure a statement filled with rage pointing fingers at China would've done the trick, if phrased carefully. There's no need to threaten with legal consequences, especially if they can't be sure if that's going to work one way or the other, or what their buddy is eventually going to do. As greenelve pointed out earlier, it's really ironic.
I never said it's savior's fault alone and I dislike the organizations you mention as well. But the simple fact is that savior's persistent streaming is harmful to the scene in general (makes people refer to afreeca streaming as criminal streaming, see oov's message = bad PR) and by participating in something like this savior opened the door for kespa+blizzard to take advantage of it and use it against BW.
If this helps get rid of the guy for good I won't even mind Chinese BW taking the blow - this is how many Koreans will feel. Well played. The fact that many people on TL won't feel this way doesn't change the fact that that's what it is where it matters.
On December 02 2013 19:36 GeckoXp wrote: My huge problem is still that there are three parties I don't like at all - KeSPA, Blizzard and Savior. Everyone loses from this, I don't see how this is savior's fault alone. Blizzard, for now, has not posted an official statement, so I stop hating them for a moment. I still think it's super Kindergarten that a company suddenly drops the nuke hammer and does everything to shit on what's going on in the BW community, because one tournament in a foreign country they not really cared about until it was too late features a guy they blamed a lot for their own failures in the past, regardless of how bad savior was. If they would have actually followed a simple line and never did shit wrong, I could understand the reaction up to some point. It's not like they didn't censor interviews about by ex-Stars when these lost on purpose in WCG and then didn't follow up with any sanctions there. And yes, this did happen as well.
I'm sure a statement filled with rage pointing fingers at China would've done the trick, if phrased carefully. There's no need to threaten with legal consequences, especially if they can't be sure if that's going to work one way or the other, or what their buddy is eventually going to do. As greenelve pointed out earlier, it's really ironic.
I never said it's savior's fault alone and I dislike the organizations you mention as well. But the simple fact is that savior's persistent streaming is harmful to the scene in general (makes people refer to afreeca streaming as criminal streaming, see oov's message = bad PR) and by participating in something like this savior opened the door for kespa+blizzard to take advantage of it and use it against BW.
If this helps get rid of the guy for good I won't even mind Chinese BW taking the blow - this is how many Koreans will feel. Well played. The fact that many people on TL won't feel this way doesn't change the fact that that's what it is where it matters.
Doesn't change that it is beyond stupid. On all parts. I like the ordinary BW constellation, where everyone loses and nobody wins. We're quite good at that.
Its simple, kespa see how well goes the tournament on china and how bad is sc2 doing on proleague studio . And people saying sonic asked to denied savior i doubt it. Sonic was o e of the guys that wanted savior stream and play on his tours but fans reaction wasnt good so he kicked him banned after that.
On December 02 2013 18:54 Stratos wrote: This is an expected follow-up to how savior's participation is perceived in Korea, I.e. unlike on TL, which is irrelevant, 30:1 people hate the idea of him making money in BW.
Now kespa and blizzard can use this opportunity to 1) send a message to all matchfixers 2) kick the dying dog that is BW.
Who should we be mad at? Savior is well aware of his presence hurting what's left of the scene but does he give a shit? He just had a great trip and made 25k. So much for your hero reviving BW.
How does thiz equivalate to kicking a dying dog considering that SCNTV is new. It's like kicking a wounded recovering dog :p
The irony makes me giggle. The "E-sports association" that switched away from Broodwar asks the company that replaced Broodwar with an inferior game to stop the guy that was supposed to almost have killed Esports from playing in tournaments neither of them are supporting and which nevertheless create considerable interest in a game they both abandoned.
On another note, Savior is still a scumbag and can fuck off.
On December 02 2013 18:31 Hyeon wrote: please, stop suking Savior and other matchfix guys. He ruined your fav MBC and Ongamenet broodwar league and damaged his progamer friends.
If he's a real person and has a "brain", he shouldn't show up on afreeca and beg money with broodwar.
Once again I'll bring up that the matchfixing wasn't the only, and wasn't even the main reason for that happening.
On December 02 2013 19:02 L1ghtning wrote: Kespa, why don't you just mind your own business? How much money have you invested into BW lately? I would never support a BW tournament involving Savior, but if some organizer wants to involve him, then fine. If Kespa hadn't destroyed the BW scene, there wouldn't even have been a demand for Savior.
This is just a bunch of ppl on Kespa who is still butthurt about the matchfixing, and now they're trying to use their favourable position with Blizzard to punish Savior. This has nothing to do with them wanting a clean BW scene. If they really cared about BW, they would host a BW tournament. They just want to punish Savior, again, for what he did, which is pretty lame.
On December 02 2013 19:06 Elroi wrote: blizzard has done so much more to hurt BW than Savior & co ever did
Really? Is that what you really believe? Post-match fixing scandal the way the fans of BW and sponsors viewed the game in Korea changed completely. It became much much harder to secure sponsors, sponsors that were already in the scene started pulling out, and really could be the reason BW died a slow painful death as a KeSPA title.
If it weren't for the match-fixing, BW most likely would've remained in a state with enough prestige and bargaining power to prevent what happened later.
as far as i know blizzard cant give a fuck on who plays their game as long as they brought it right? even if blizzard would want to intercept i dont think they could do a damn thing about it
On December 02 2013 20:24 goody153 wrote: as far as i know blizzard cant give a fuck on who plays their game as long as they brought it right? even if blizzard would want to intercept i dont think they could
If you want to stream a BW tournament and make money of it, you need to obtain a license from Blizzard. Seems like Chinese don't care about that stuff too much and probably didn't bother getting one. Will they just show Blizzard the middle finger? I have no idea how this stuff works on international grounds.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
On December 02 2013 20:24 goody153 wrote: as far as i know blizzard cant give a fuck on who plays their game as long as they brought it right? even if blizzard would want to intercept i dont think they could
If you want to stream a BW tournament and make money of it, you need to obtain a license from Blizzard. Seems like Chinese don't care about that stuff too much and probably didn't bother getting one. Will they just show Blizzard the middle finger? I have no idea how this stuff works on international grounds.
many are streaming broodwar tournaments. So i guess getting the license is not so important.
On December 02 2013 20:24 goody153 wrote: as far as i know blizzard cant give a fuck on who plays their game as long as they brought it right? even if blizzard would want to intercept i dont think they could
If you want to stream a BW tournament and make money of it, you need to obtain a license from Blizzard. Seems like Chinese don't care about that stuff too much and probably didn't bother getting one. Will they just show Blizzard the middle finger? I have no idea how this stuff works on international grounds.
many are streaming broodwar tournaments. So i guess getting the license is not so important.
It gets more important with the scale of the tournament you're hosting. Sonic had to get one too, he found out just before his offline finals but someone high up in Blizzard was notified and made sure everything went smooth.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
Although i hate savior and all the other matchfixer, Blizzard and Kespa destroyed bw in korea and replaced it with a half baked new game. So they have no right to intervene here.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
To be honest, KeSPA and Blizzard are both worthless organisations and their influence on chinese BW is going to be 0.
The bad thing about this is it gives BW bad press, which sucks in general. As for Sonic requesting that they don't let savior play, that was good, at least he took a stand. However if they truly had wanted to enforce it, Sonic would have had to call an ultimatum such as : no SoSPA players are allowed to play in a tournament with the matchfixers, which would've meant Scan and Movie would not have been playing,and that might've pressured the Chinese more. Sadly he can't do that because he can't compensate players for the lost money, but this is essentially why we need a more professional body again.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
What kind of world do you live in? You're angry at a business company for doing business, successfully at that. And you expect community to come to the sensible consensus and agree on something controversial as savior?
On December 02 2013 18:47 digmouse wrote: I doubt this SCNTV even gets a tournament license from Blizzard in the first place because in China everyone doesn't care about that.
I found another Korean news, and it said SCNTV didn't get license from China Blizzard.
On December 02 2013 18:44 Hyeon wrote: okay, so let me tell you this.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
So?
Let's put KFA as KeSPA Blizzard as FIFA Croatia league as Chinese league.
answer?
Football =/= Broodwar
A better example: FIFA and KFA stopped caring about football, begin being all about basketball.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. KFA stopped doing football. FIFA stopped doing football. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
On December 02 2013 18:44 Hyeon wrote: okay, so let me tell you this.
There was a match fix in Korean football league. One of the guy was banned from Korean league. He tried to play in Croatia league but Korea football association asked FIFA to block that guy to play in proleague.
So?
Let's put KFA as KeSPA Blizzard as FIFA Croatia league as Chinese league.
answer?
In HNL (Croatian football leauge) matchfixing is normal, everybody does it.
interesting. but i heard HNL admitted FIFA's requirement?
On December 02 2013 18:57 Weryeery wrote: Nice to hear that kespa is still interested with BW, furthermore a foreign tournament... So they want to use savior to kill a reviving BW?
you want to revive bw by using matchfix guy? lol
======================================== I'm sick of seeing you guys blame KeSPA with this. Why not blame Savior?
It seems you guys don't know why BW league gone? LOL
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
When did I say anything like that? I didn't. Either way - what us, the foreign community, figures out is mostly irrelevant. What's relevant is what Korea thinks about Savior and that is...
Best comments from related news on this topic: +3809 -200 This is so shameless what's the reason for this? Take your responsiblity for breaking Star 1 at once. +2588 -103 Savior's second (adopted) home +2513 -97 It's a shame someone like Savior was a progamer. +2326 -88 Savior conscience boso (I think that's supposed to be "boss") +2291 -98 If Savior really had any conscience he wouldn't participate.
^ and this was before he won the $25,000.
China mostly doesn't seem to care but if KeSPA and Blizz opt to gang up on them it's thanks to this atmosphere in Korea that they can do so.
I'm sick of seeing you guys blame KeSPA with this. Why not blame Savior?
It seems you guys don't know why BW league gone? LOL
So you are saying that KeSPA stopped doing BW tours and league cause of few guys matchfixed? In my opinion it doesn't make sense. Anyway pro BW existed like 2 yaers after matchfixing, but was gradually 'dying' for favor of starcraft 2.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
When did I say anything like that? I didn't. Either way - what us, the foreign community, figures out is mostly irrelevant. What's relevant is what Korea thinks about Savior and that is...
Best comments from related news on this topic: +3809 -200 This is so shameless what's the reason for this? Take your responsiblity for breaking Star 1 at once. +2588 -103 Savior's second (adopted) home +2513 -97 It's a shame someone like Savior was a progamer. +2326 -88 Savior conscience boso (I think that's supposed to be "boss") +2291 -98 If Savior really had any conscience he wouldn't participate.
^ and this was before he won the $25,000.
China mostly doesn't seem to care but if KeSPA and Blizz opt to gang up on them it's thanks to this atmosphere in Korea that they can do so.
No, what Korea thinks is irrelevant because this is about China.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
When did I say anything like that? I didn't. Either way - what us, the foreign community, figures out is mostly irrelevant. What's relevant is what Korea thinks about Savior and that is...
Best comments from related news on this topic: +3809 -200 This is so shameless what's the reason for this? Take your responsiblity for breaking Star 1 at once. +2588 -103 Savior's second (adopted) home +2513 -97 It's a shame someone like Savior was a progamer. +2326 -88 Savior conscience boso (I think that's supposed to be "boss") +2291 -98 If Savior really had any conscience he wouldn't participate.
^ and this was before he won the $25,000.
China mostly doesn't seem to care but if KeSPA and Blizz opt to gang up on them it's thanks to this atmosphere in Korea that they can do so.
No, what Korea thinks is irrelevant because this is about China.
But it's KeSPA asking Blizzard to take action. KeSPA = Korea e-Sports Association, a big player in the scene - whether you like it or not.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
What kind of world do you live in? You're angry at a business company for doing business, successfully at that. And you expect community to come to the sensible consensus and agree on something controversial as savior?
So if a company ruins peoples lives and destroys an industry that's OK because they make good profits, and hey, its a business? If an Indian guy swears to never drink Coca-Cola ever again because they poisoned the well in his village and his child is paralyzed for life he is wrong and just being a spiteful little bitch about it? Anyone who fights against Blizzard is fighting the good fight.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
What kind of world do you live in? You're angry at a business company for doing business, successfully at that. And you expect community to come to the sensible consensus and agree on something controversial as savior?
So if a company ruins peoples lives and destroys an industry that's OK because they make good profits, and hey, its a business? If an Indian guy swears to never drink Coca-Cola ever again because they poisoned the well in his village and his child is paralyzed for life he is wrong and just being a spiteful little bitch about it? Anyone who fights against Blizzard is fighting the good fight.
I already said I'm generally not very appreciative of Blizzard and regarding this I'd have to wait and see how far Blizzard goes with this to make an opinion on the matter.
What I do know is that regardless of the past, savior's presence was hurting the neo BW scene more than Blizzard did in the last year or so, so in that aspect, I would be happier if Savior was gone rather than if Blizzard was gone.. because it basically was gone up until now. So again, I don't understand why you'd support someone to insult a company who didn't do shit for or against BW in the last year at the expense of the BW scene itself. But it's your weird logic, feel free to stick by it.
Oh, didn't notice you were replying to 2pac.. nevermind the first paragraph then.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
What kind of world do you live in? You're angry at a business company for doing business, successfully at that. And you expect community to come to the sensible consensus and agree on something controversial as savior?
So if a company ruins peoples lives and destroys an industry that's OK because they make good profits, and hey, its a business? If an Indian guy swears to never drink Coca-Cola ever again because they poisoned the well in his village and his child is paralyzed for life he is wrong and just being a spiteful little bitch about it? Anyone who fights against Blizzard is fighting the good fight.
I'm really having a hard time following your line of logic. My comment about Blizzard being successful business was in reference to your post when you said that they "tricked" you into spending 120 euros on their new games.
Look, I'm the last person to defend Blizzard, but your grasp on the whole issue of professional BW's downfall and current state of BW scene is very poor, so saying things like
if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
KeSpa need to butt out. This is not their business. They lost their right to any input the day they binned BW and ran, siding with the bully. Any Blizz involvement now is just bad. Nothing else.
I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
How is it a good move by KeSPA to randomly throw shit at the organizers? I understand why they loathe savior, just like the rest of us do. I don't quite get how and why the also randomly throw dirt in other directions, see what Stratos wrote about Iloveoov's statements. They never acted like they would support eSports on a more global scale and they shouldn't try to do that now. I wonder if all the supposedly big sponsors would've read up on savior being in china in the first place, if it wasn't for such a huge PR stunt. I really don't get why they're so super butthurt all of a sudden, given that they can't possibly gain ANYTHING from this move, but to hurt EVERYTHING and EVERYONE losely connected to savior - which apparently includes SOSPA. Yah, great thing for sure. Blizzard and KeSPA can go fuck off, they decided to do different things, so they should either come back or leave altogether.
On December 02 2013 19:34 Stratos wrote: Btw. even if Blizzard ends up doing nothing this is bad news for SoSPA anyway. Sonic is soon to be dealing with major companies to sponsor SSL9 and this kind of news won't be very beneficial. It probably wouldn't matter to the sponsors that Savior wasn't and isn't allowed in SoSPA. They might just see some controversial news in the scene and put their hands away.
As you may or may not know, Sonic also requested Savior's participation would be cancelled. He was in one way or another told to go fuck himself by the Chinese organizators. That's also very healthy for the scene. +2 for savior I guess?
This is the best and most important post to get from all of this. All of you who support savior in any way are too short-sighted to see what kind of potential problems this might bring to the SOSPA. It's amazing that he's managing to help destroy the BW scene for the second time, this time even before it reached its full potential. I just hope Sonic and SOSPA still manage to give us good news like this even despite this very annoying problem that they could very well do without.
But don't get me wrong, just because savior is a bad guy here, doesn't automatically means that KeSPA is a good guy. Unfortunately, there are no good guys here (except Sonic who is not mentioned in this news). In the end, it doesn't really matter that KeSPA is doing this, because savior was already doing harm to potential Sonic's sponsors even without, now increased, media attention. But yeah, as nina said, KeSPA should stay quiet until they host a BW tournament which I somehow doubt will happen, so we need to put all our trust and faith into the Sonic and help him in any way we can.
See I don't like savior, but at least he didn't trick me into giving him 120 euro for two piece of shit games and then proceed to kill a game he didn't even make. Anyone or anything that in anyway does anything to harm and/or piss off those cunts in Irvine has my full support, if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
So you'd support someone for insulting a company that has barely any impact at the expense of the currently re-growing BW scene? Weird logic.
You really think Blizzard should have a say in anything to do with Brood War? It is up to us, the community, to figure out if we should watch/support a tournament with savior in it. Not Blizzard.
What kind of world do you live in? You're angry at a business company for doing business, successfully at that. And you expect community to come to the sensible consensus and agree on something controversial as savior?
So if a company ruins peoples lives and destroys an industry that's OK because they make good profits, and hey, its a business? If an Indian guy swears to never drink Coca-Cola ever again because they poisoned the well in his village and his child is paralyzed for life he is wrong and just being a spiteful little bitch about it? Anyone who fights against Blizzard is fighting the good fight.
I'm really having a hard time following your line of logic. My comment about Blizzard being successful business was in reference to your post when you said that they "tricked" you into spending 120 euros on their new games.
Look, I'm the last person to defend Blizzard, but your grasp on the whole issue of professional BW's downfall and current state of BW scene is very poor, so saying things like
if savior started carrying a sign around with him wherever he went that said FUCK BLIZZARD he would be in a moral sense the best player in our scene right now.
is extremely ignorant.
No, I understand what you are saying. Its just that any mention of Blizzard having anything to do with controlling the BW scene makes my blood boil.
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
There is no doubt that having SaviOr playing in BW open is not a great idea.
The question is why and how an organization that doesn't hold BW tournaments anymore and has completely disengaged from the scene feels untitled to tell organizers who should and shouldn't play. This is completely ridiculous.
Now, just one more thing. I think everybody, and especially Kespa is happy to be able to blame SaviOr and co for the downfall of BW. Thing is, I don't believe one minute that the match fixing scandal has anything to do with the end of the scene. It's more convenient to say "OH THE BAD GUYS, THERE, IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM" than to admit that BW disappeared because Kespa thought SC2 was a more profitable opportunity.
Kespa should logically not care and not bother about whatever SaviOr wants to do with what remains of his career in an area the organization has left. The only reason they do is for their public image; let's face it, SC2 is not a great game compared to the original, and many people, starting with me, are fairly bitter that Kespa just disengaged because the whole SC2 thing had become trendy.
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
There is no doubt that having SaviOr playing in BW open is not a great idea.
The question is why and how an organization that doesn't hold BW tournaments anymore and has completely disengaged from the scene feels untitled to tell organizers who should and shouldn't play. This is completely ridiculous.
Now, just one more thing. I think everybody, and especially Kespa is happy to be able to blame SaviOr and co for the downfall of BW. Thing is, I don't believe one minute that the match fixing scandal has anything to do with the end of the scene. It's more convenient to say "OH THE BAD GUYS, THERE, IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM" than to admit that BW disappeared because Kespa thought SC2 was a more profitable opportunity.
Kespa should logically not care and not bother about whatever SaviOr wants to do with what remains of his career in an area the organization has left. The only reason they do is for their public image; let's face it, SC2 is not a great game compared to the original, and many people, starting with me, are fairly bitter that Kespa just disengaged because the whole SC2 thing had become trendy.
Exactly. Although Savior and the other guys damaged the popularity of bw (i hope they burn in hell for that) it wasnt the reason why bw pros had to switch to sc2 (iam glad that some of them left sc2).
Actually it makes a lot of sense to ask Blizzard to get someone else to stop Saviour.
Most sports have a professional body in each country, and then an overarching worldwide council or similar. In Blizzard games, Blizzard is the overarching council, and Kespa is the Korean professional body. They are asking Blizzard to make worldwide their own internal bans for players.
The same would happen in many other competitions, where if someone is sanctioned by an individual body, that punishment (depending on agreements between bodies) would be upheld in other countries because of agreements.
Now, in e-Sports, we don't currently have such as system, because it's younger and less organised, but Kespa are basically saying "we think that if we ban someone, they should be banned everywhere. As you (Blizzard) are the gatekeeper, you will have to uphold such bans. Please uphold our ban".
Of course, when China doesn't give a damn, not much can be achieved, but the concept of what Kespa are doing by asking Blizzard is accepted in most other sports.
hm sounds like Kespa has some interest to pick up BW again if they try to get rid of the match fixers. Or they are scared that someone might think, they can survive if they try to do it in one of Kespa's current games. Either way don't know if much can be done there, but I doubt BW can get past a certain point as long as Savior is still around. I think right now is the best moment to get rid of Savior though without hurting the BW scene to much.
But Imo they should do what they think is best for their scene. I'll never forgive him anyway, so I don't really care.
And I still think Sc2 had more of an positive effect on BW then a negative one, especially internationally. But I also don't count the quarrel about Money at the release of Sc2 related.
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
How is it a good move by KeSPA to randomly throw shit at the organizers? I understand why they loathe savior, just like the rest of us do. I don't quite get how and why the also randomly throw dirt in other directions, see what Stratos wrote about Iloveoov's statements. They never acted like they would support eSports on a more global scale and they shouldn't try to do that now. I wonder if all the supposedly big sponsors would've read up on savior being in china in the first place, if it wasn't for such a huge PR stunt. I really don't get why they're so super butthurt all of a sudden, given that they can't possibly gain ANYTHING from this move, but to hurt EVERYTHING and EVERYONE losely connected to savior - which apparently includes SOSPA. Yah, great thing for sure. Blizzard and KeSPA can go fuck off, they decided to do different things, so they should either come back or leave altogether.
I don't think he was saying that it's a good move by KeSPA, but rather just provided an explanation on why they might have done it anyways. You're right on your other points though, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA did this on purpose to increase the media attention of savior's participation in Chinese events in a way to discredit the existing BW scene, no matter how small it is, and screw up the potential sponsorship of SOSPA events.
On December 02 2013 23:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
Thing is, I don't believe one minute that the match fixing scandal has anything to do with the end of the scene. It's more convenient to say "OH THE BAD GUYS, THERE, IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM" than to admit that BW disappeared because Kespa thought SC2 was a more profitable opportunity.
Thing is, it doesn't matter what you believe or not. It matters what korean public and potential sponsors believe and from I've seen, most of them disagree with you.
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
Since it's KeSPA, yes lol.
On December 02 2013 19:08 BoxvsYellow wrote: For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
On December 02 2013 23:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:29 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
On December 02 2013 19:08 BoxvsYellow wrote: For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
If the Chinese tournament didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot from the controversy of inviting Savior, then they shouldn't have invited him in the first place.
On December 02 2013 23:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:29 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
Since it's KeSPA, yes lol.
On December 02 2013 19:08 BoxvsYellow wrote: For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
On December 02 2013 23:40 Nerevar wrote: If the Chinese tournament didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot from the controversy of inviting Savior, then they shouldn't have invited him in the first place.
Savior was the headliner of the tournament and the fans/viewers loved it. Trust me, SCNTV does not regret inviting Savior one bit and as far as they're concerned, the tournament was a resounding success.
On December 02 2013 23:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:36 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:29 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
Since it's KeSPA, yes lol.
On December 02 2013 19:08 BoxvsYellow wrote: For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
There is nothing from Blizzard there, it's only KeSPA saying stuff and claiming Blizzard is doing stuff.
Fair enough, Kespa asks Blizz to do stuff and conveniently Blizz is doing stuff.
What "stuff" is Blizzard doing? I see Kespa saying that they're "looking into it," much like I'm "looking into" the work I'm supposed to be doing right now.
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
How is it a good move by KeSPA to randomly throw shit at the organizers? I understand why they loathe savior, just like the rest of us do. I don't quite get how and why the also randomly throw dirt in other directions, see what Stratos wrote about Iloveoov's statements. They never acted like they would support eSports on a more global scale and they shouldn't try to do that now. I wonder if all the supposedly big sponsors would've read up on savior being in china in the first place, if it wasn't for such a huge PR stunt. I really don't get why they're so super butthurt all of a sudden, given that they can't possibly gain ANYTHING from this move, but to hurt EVERYTHING and EVERYONE losely connected to savior - which apparently includes SOSPA. Yah, great thing for sure. Blizzard and KeSPA can go fuck off, they decided to do different things, so they should either come back or leave altogether.
I don't think he was saying that it's a good move by KeSPA, but rather just provided an explanation on why they might have done it anyways. You're right on your other points though, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA did this on purpose to increase the media attention of savior's participation in Chinese events in a way to discredit the existing BW scene, no matter how small it is, and screw up the potential sponsorship of SOSPA events.
On December 02 2013 23:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
Thing is, I don't believe one minute that the match fixing scandal has anything to do with the end of the scene. It's more convenient to say "OH THE BAD GUYS, THERE, IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM" than to admit that BW disappeared because Kespa thought SC2 was a more profitable opportunity.
Thing is, it doesn't matter what you believe or not. It matters what korean public and potential sponsors believe and from I've seen, most of them disagree with you.
. Because it's easier (we shut it down because we make moar money with SC2, even if it's not really good: not sexy), . Because it's more dramatic, and people are silly and love drama (the bad guys cheated and the scene was destroyed: more sexy that: nobody cared anymore with the release of SC2, we couldn't find sponsors and anyway, SC2 looked like a promising market while BW had been in decline for years) . And because that's what they are being told (Kespa headquarter: err guys, let's make them believe it's because of that zerg guy, so we don't have to admit it's a business matter and no one cares about the hardcore BW fans).
Now, if we talk about beliefs
. Do you think Kespa would have carried on with BW if SaviOr hadn't cheated? I can't believe you are that naive. . Do you think the fact that the fact BW disappeared JUST when SC2 came out is a coincidence?
So what, are you saying in fact the stage shut down because of the match fixing stuff, but somewhat it happened simultaneously than the release of SC2. And also when Blizzard wanted to sue us to shut the scene up. But yeah, that's accidental. The fact some nerds cheated a year and half before, that's the real reason.
It's not about what I believe. It's about what's logic and what makes no sense whatsoever.
On December 02 2013 23:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:36 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:29 Stratos wrote:
On December 02 2013 23:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Has Blizzard even responded/acknowledged this complaint at all, or is KeSPA just talking to hear itself talk right now?
Would you think KeSPA wouldn't discuss this beforehand with Blizz?
Since it's KeSPA, yes lol.
On December 02 2013 19:08 BoxvsYellow wrote: For more details, here's the translation of the entire Korean news article stating the incident.
The victory of Ma JaeYoon (Savior) in the Chinese starcraft championship, the player who has been charged with a year long sentence and two years of probation for the Starcraft Match Fixing Scandal, has recently became the controversy,
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
On December 1st, 2013, after participating with his Chinese teammate, Ma has won 15,000 Yuan from the Starcraft 1 championship held by the Chinese online media called "SCNTV"
Although he was officially invited by the administration staffs of the championship and such event was "for the show" instead of the competition, it is hard to igore the fact that he acted as a professional player.
It is suspected that the championship was held without the approval of Blizzard. On December 2nd, KesPa staff has stated "Blizzard did not know about Ma's participation in the tournament at all. Blizzard is currently under their investigation regarding the championship. It seems that the championship was held without Blizzard's approval."
Any championship that involves Blizzard's game must gain the approval from Blizzard regarding the license.
There is nothing from Blizzard there, it's only KeSPA saying stuff and claiming Blizzard is doing stuff.
Fair enough, Kespa asks Blizz to do stuff and conveniently Blizz is doing stuff.
What "stuff" is Blizzard doing? I see Kespa saying that they're "looking into it," much like I'm "looking into" the work I'm supposed to be doing right now.
This might be a shock to many but I'm not with Blizzard or KeSPA so I don't know All I'm saying is that this seems more like some kind of a plan for at least media play rather than just random shouting from KeSPA cuz they're bored or butthurt.
Someone mentioned SCNTV also broadcasts SC2 and they'd be hurting that with these 'investigations'. IMO bringing down the BW on SCNTV and only leaving the SC2 part operational doesn't sound so bad for Blizz/KeSPA, considering the scale and success of Asia Open and the SoSPA expansion. Though I don't expect they would/could go so far.
On December 03 2013 00:18 Stratos wrote: All I'm saying is that this seems more like some kind of a plan for at least media play rather than just random shouting from KeSPA cuz they're bored or butthurt.
Really? Because everything so far points to it being exactly that.
On December 03 2013 00:18 Stratos wrote: All I'm saying is that this seems more like some kind of a plan for at least media play rather than just random shouting from KeSPA cuz they're bored or butthurt.
Really? Because everything so far points to it being exactly that.
Everything being the fact that there's a fast confirmation that Blizzard is investigating the matter?
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
How is it a good move by KeSPA to randomly throw shit at the organizers? I understand why they loathe savior, just like the rest of us do. I don't quite get how and why the also randomly throw dirt in other directions, see what Stratos wrote about Iloveoov's statements. They never acted like they would support eSports on a more global scale and they shouldn't try to do that now. I wonder if all the supposedly big sponsors would've read up on savior being in china in the first place, if it wasn't for such a huge PR stunt. I really don't get why they're so super butthurt all of a sudden, given that they can't possibly gain ANYTHING from this move, but to hurt EVERYTHING and EVERYONE losely connected to savior - which apparently includes SOSPA. Yah, great thing for sure. Blizzard and KeSPA can go fuck off, they decided to do different things, so they should either come back or leave altogether.
I don't think he was saying that it's a good move by KeSPA, but rather just provided an explanation on why they might have done it anyways. You're right on your other points though, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA did this on purpose to increase the media attention of savior's participation in Chinese events in a way to discredit the existing BW scene, no matter how small it is, and screw up the potential sponsorship of SOSPA events.
On December 02 2013 23:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 02 2013 22:37 Aesop wrote: I really don't get the hate towards KeSPA and Blizzard (K&B) in this one. Sure, Brood War in its former state does not exist anymore. That's due to a multitude of reasons, SC II and its promotion being one of them, but nobody can deny the blow that the matchfixing scandal dealt to the Brood War scene either. So, Brood War is not what it used to be.
Now, a first argument against K&B appears to be "fck off, what have you done for BW lately, tournament organizers should be able to invite who they want". As 2pacalypse stated, this is short-sighted. Building up a Brood War scene on the back of someone who played a major role in bringing it down due to matchfixing will instantly make it look shady. No good area for sponsors.
Let's try this analogy (take it with a grain of salt, like with any analogy): The Tour de France is finally shut down, due to having a hard time getting sponsors, in particular because of its doping history. Someone starts a rebuild. Lance Armstrong wants to participate. Should he be in, if you want to gain credibility and sponsors for your new cycling league?
Now, the second argument appears to be "fk off, why would YOU have a say in this". From what I gather, Kespa does not understand itself as a Starcraft, but as an Esports organization in general. So this is not about Brood War, it is about Esports in general. It would be the same if Savior wanted to participate in LoL, Dota 2, or World of Tanks - they would ask the tournament organizer not to consider him, since he damaged Esports in general. And who else would request this? They are the ones who banned him, so it's a natural thing for them to ask others to uphold that ban.
Now, assuming Kespa already contacted the organizers, who would they turn to? I don't think it's a glorious idea to invoke Blizzard here, but who else?
I suppose my argument boils down to two things: a) having Savior around is intrinsically bad for a new Bw scene. b) Kespa asking others to uphold the ban is not about Brood War in particular, but about E-Sports in general.
Thing is, I don't believe one minute that the match fixing scandal has anything to do with the end of the scene. It's more convenient to say "OH THE BAD GUYS, THERE, IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM" than to admit that BW disappeared because Kespa thought SC2 was a more profitable opportunity.
Thing is, it doesn't matter what you believe or not. It matters what korean public and potential sponsors believe and from I've seen, most of them disagree with you.
. Because it's easier (we shut it down because we make moar money with SC2, even if it's not really good: not sexy), . Because it's more dramatic, and people are silly and love drama (the bad guys cheated and the scene was destroyed: more sexy that: nobody cared anymore with the release of SC2, we couldn't find sponsors and anyway, SC2 looked like a promising market while BW had been in decline for years) . And because that's what they are being told (Kespa headquarter: err guys, let's make them believe it's because of that zerg guy, so we don't have to admit it's a business matter and no one cares about the hardcore BW fans).
Now, if we talk about beliefs
. Do you think Kespa would have carried on with BW if SaviOr hadn't cheated? I can't believe you are that naive. . Do you think the fact that the fact BW disappeared JUST when SC2 came out is a coincidence?
So what, are you saying in fact the stage shut down because of the match fixing stuff, but somewhat it happened simultaneously than the release of SC2. And also when Blizzard wanted to sue us to shut the scene up. But yeah, that's accidental. The fact some nerds cheated a year and half before, that's the real reason.
It's not about what I believe. It's about what's logic and what makes no sense whatsoever.
You either have trouble reading or are purposefully misinterpreting my words. You're arguing something that I have not said. Now the last thing I want is to get into this argument with someone who thinks he has it all figured out from his computer chair. But, the point I'm making is that people who have been involved in the BW scene since its inception and who helped make it what it was, think differently than you. So you should direct your "logic" to them, not me.
Savior crazies and their straw men defenses coming out in full force again. KeSPA does something right for once. Although, as usual, it is too little too late. They should have taken action waaay before.
If anyone thinks that letting a convicted match-fixing broker and confirmed match-fixer (ask Nal_Ra what he thinks about that!) participate in a major BW tournament does not taint the entire scene, then I feel really sorry for his lack of intelligence. It is impossible to reason with people like that. Pete Rose got a lifetime ban for simply betting on his own team to win FFS. Children don't seem to understand how serious this is and try to make irrelevant consequentialist arguments about blame games.
On December 03 2013 00:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 03 2013 00:18 Stratos wrote: All I'm saying is that this seems more like some kind of a plan for at least media play rather than just random shouting from KeSPA cuz they're bored or butthurt.
Really? Because everything so far points to it being exactly that.
Everything being the fact that there's a fast confirmation that Blizzard is investigating the matter?
Where is this confirmation? I asked for something from Blizzard but apparently you can't do anything except quote the nwes post. If this is all you can do, then there have been literally zero comments from Blizzard about the matter, and no evidence showing that Blizzard cares or even knows about what KeSPA is doing.
On December 02 2013 23:59 shaftofpleasure wrote: I like how Savior is being bashed for having won a game that he was convicted for intentionally losing it to make money. a little Ironic haha it sounds like a fast food joint.
I guess he intentionally lost because people expected him to win back when he did it. I doubt people expected him to win this time around so hypothetically, if he would match fix again he'd probably arrange it so that he wins.
KeSPA seems to get a lot of flak in here even though they kept running BW all the way until 2012 even long after SC2 was released. With all their faults to me that doesn't seem exactly like the kind of behavior you'd expect from an organisation that's instantly trying to jump at the slightest opportunity of profits from a new game.
On December 03 2013 00:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On December 03 2013 00:18 Stratos wrote: All I'm saying is that this seems more like some kind of a plan for at least media play rather than just random shouting from KeSPA cuz they're bored or butthurt.
Really? Because everything so far points to it being exactly that.
Everything being the fact that there's a fast confirmation that Blizzard is investigating the matter?
Where is this confirmation? There have been literally zero comments from Blizzard about the matter, and no evidence showing that Blizzard cares or even knows about what KeSPA is doing.
I assume if someone from KeSPA says Blizzard weren't aware of this and they're currently investigating it in an interview for a news site, it's true. Is there any reason I shouldn't?
On December 03 2013 00:52 Stratos wrote: Is there any reason I shouldn't?
Yes, because it's KeSPA.
It would not surprise me one bit if this news post was the first time Blizzard heard about this, at which point they will politely tell KeSPA to fuck off.
wow.so many guys here.i'd like to say some truth: the sponsor is a hardcore bw lover.savior was the one that the sponsor specificly wanted him to play.and savior played dam good on 2v2 BW Asia Open.Asia Open was a great succes and the biggest BW event in China.that's all!
I WILL UPLOAD THE VODS ON TL IF SCNTV FINISH RECODING THEM.
On December 03 2013 00:55 s_k_911 wrote: wow.so many guys here.i'd like to say some truth: savior was the one that the sponsor wanted him to play.and savior played dam good on 2v2 BW Asia Open.that's all!
I WILL UPLOAD THE VODS ON TL IF SCNTV FINISH RECODING THEM.
thank you
savior is a massive wiener, but i'd be lying if i said i didn't want to see how he plays after all these years.
On December 02 2013 23:35 2Pacalypse- wrote: I don't think he was saying that it's a good move by KeSPA, but rather just provided an explanation on why they might have done it anyways. You're right on your other points though, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if KeSPA did this on purpose to increase the media attention of savior's participation in Chinese events in a way to discredit the existing BW scene, no matter how small it is, and screw up the potential sponsorship of SOSPA events.
It's really about that as far as im concerned. As we could see from the oov statement, Kespa is showing interest at throwing shit at contemporary broodwar in order to discredit it and fight back an entertainment that threatens their marketshare with sc2 in Korea majorly. I don't believe contacting Blizzard officially about Savior is an expression of genuine concern, it's done for the sake of discrediting contemporary BW. Now Sonic is doing things proper and doesn't give them a huge deal of space to attack, but the ASIA BW Open is just an open invitation for the Sc2 industry to throw shit our way. I do personally, by no means, agree that Savior should be playing in international tournaments with prizemoney, in fact i propose the opposite. But it should be up to BW sponsors and organizers to push this, not to Kespa or Blizzard who have done nothing but harm to Broodwar since they abandoned it.
Even thought scnTV have invited a matchfixer, the overall gesture of the tournament was based on good intentions.
This whole situation is based upon one variable: whether or not Kespa is thinking about introducing BW back into its program.
If they are, then they have the privilege to influence the scene.
If not, then they better stay the fuck out of it because all they are doing is to bring negative upon the BW scene, so they can go fuck themselves like how they did when they decided to kill BW with Blizzard.
Beside Blizzard can't do anything in this case (unless the rumor of scnTV not getting license is correct). You can punish an organization for inviting a certain player, the organization can do w/e it pleases.
On December 03 2013 00:55 s_k_911 wrote: wow.so many guys here.i'd like to say some truth: savior was the one that the sponsor wanted him to play.and savior played dam good on 2v2 BW Asia Open.that's all!
I WILL UPLOAD THE VODS ON TL IF SCNTV FINISH RECODING THEM.
thank you
savior is a massive wiener, but i'd be lying if i said i didn't want to see how he plays after all these years.
we are just oudience! scntv is just orgniser who bring equipments!only we can do is choose to watch or not. but i (and most chinese bw lovers)really enjoyed the threeday's show!
On December 03 2013 00:58 Xiphos wrote: Even thought scnTV have invited a matchfixer, the overall gesture of the tournament was based on good intentions.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They were being incredibly irresponsible by inviting Savior. Savior's current skill is below the level of 2nd class ex-pros on Afreeca at the moment, so he wasn't invited for his skills. I get the feeling that one of the sponsors is an irrational Savior crazy.
This whole situation is based upon one variable: whether or not Kespa is thinking about introducing BW back into its program.
If they are, then they have the privilege to influence the scene.
If not, then they better stay the fuck out of it because all they are doing is to bring negative upon the BW scene, so they can go fuck themselves like how they did when they decided to kill BW with Blizzard.
Revealing the poster's child-like one-dimensional "my ball" reasoning. Having a match-fixer participate in e-sports hurts the public image of all e-sports. KeSPA banned Savior from e-sports events under the governance of KeSPA. Bans are meaningless if they have loopholes. If players can expect not to be sanctioned in the increasing lucrative Chinese market, then KeSPA's ban loses some of its bite. Incentives people!
On December 03 2013 00:58 Xiphos wrote:Beside Blizzard can't do anything in this case (unless the rumor of scnTV not getting license is correct). You can punish an organization for inviting a certain player, the organization can do w/e it pleases.
The premise underlying the call for Blizzard action was that scnTV is alleged not to have obtain a license.
PS: I am not trying to reason with Savior crazies. They can't be reasoned with... This post is for the amusement of rational people only.
honestly i don't really care if savior plays in CN league, as long as it revives BW. KeSPA can't do anything about some organizations inviting Savior to play in their league. Like why does KeSPA care about this, when it's not even their tournament. I'm pretty sure scnTV has some awareness about what Savior went through.
On December 03 2013 01:30 Golgotha wrote: if BW ever comes back, I do not want kespa running shit again. all the pro streams will disappear and they will puppet string all the players again.
On December 03 2013 01:36 LTY wrote: honestly i don't really care if savior plays in CN league, as long as it revives BW. KeSPA can't do anything about some organizations inviting Savior to play in their league. Like why does KeSPA care about this, when it's not even their tournament. I'm pretty sure scnTV has some awareness about what Savior went through.
The problem is that this is more harmful to the potential revival of BW, rather than helpful.
Let's see here. Savior's been banned from professional play in Korea, right? And both Kespa and Blizzard have abandoned BW in favor of SC2, yes? So what exactly is this all about? To me it looks like Kespa are being butthurt and/or afraid that BW will get popular again after they've left it to rot. I don't approve of what Savior did, but I don't approve of what Kespa and Blizzard have done (to BW) either. Savior got punished and now he entered a foreign tournament. I don't see a problem.
On December 03 2013 00:58 Xiphos wrote: Even thought scnTV have invited a matchfixer, the overall gesture of the tournament was based on good intentions.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They were being incredibly irresponsible by inviting Savior. Savior's current skill is below the level of 2nd class ex-pros on Afreeca at the moment, so he wasn't invited for his skills. I get the feeling that one of the sponsors is an irrational Savior crazy.
This whole situation is based upon one variable: whether or not Kespa is thinking about introducing BW back into its program.
If they are, then they have the privilege to influence the scene.
If not, then they better stay the fuck out of it because all they are doing is to bring negative upon the BW scene, so they can go fuck themselves like how they did when they decided to kill BW with Blizzard.
Revealing the poster's child-like one-dimensional "my ball" reasoning. Having a match-fixer participate in e-sports hurts the public image of all e-sports. KeSPA banned Savior from e-sports events under the governance of KeSPA. Bans are meaningless if they have loopholes. If players can expect not to be sanctioned in the increasing lucrative Chinese market, then KeSPA's ban loses some of its bite. Incentives people!
On December 03 2013 00:58 Xiphos wrote:Beside Blizzard can't do anything in this case (unless the rumor of scnTV not getting license is correct). You can punish an organization for inviting a certain player, the organization can do w/e it pleases.
The premise underlying the call for Blizzard action was that scnTV is alleged not to have obtain a license.
PS: I am not trying to reason with Savior crazies. They can't be reasoned with... This post is for the amusement of rational people only.
So many things wrong with this post.
1. If sAviOr didn't have skill necessary to compete, he wouldn't have won the 2 vs 2 tournament, fallacious logic one.
2. Beside sAviOr weren't invited to lose games just for the hell of it. Its not like the organization invited him to lose games but to compete honorably which again he did so with result.
3. Second quotation is just attacking the poster while reiterating first point, completely useless. Seriousness fuck Kespa and Blizzard for what they did. BW died because of THEM. If SC2 weren't pushed at all in Korea with pressure, BW progaming would still have persisted.
4. scnTV is doing good for the BW scene. "Good is good if it is good for me." I don't care whether or not Kespa did great things for BW in the past. Why don't you try living in the present, Kespa is gone from BW forever (unless otherwise). Fuck other E-sports, I ONLY care about BW. And that's pretty much what Kespa is doing right now, they are bored so they decide to use some of that time to eliminate other competition from SC2. By getting rid of scnTV, you are essentially shrinking the BW scene. I'm flabbergasted that any BW fan would even begin to stupidly think that's beneficial for the scene.
Revealing the poster's child-like one-dimensional "my ball" reasoning. Having a match-fixer participate in e-sports hurts the public image of all e-sports. KeSPA banned Savior from e-sports events under the governance of KeSPA. Bans are meaningless if they have loopholes. If players can expect not to be sanctioned in the increasing lucrative Chinese market, then KeSPA's ban loses some of its bite. Incentives people!
But the "hurts eSports argument" is not one dimensional? Cheating, hacks and match fixing are not a first time issue in "eSports", nor is KeSPA any more important for "eSports" than the Chinese scene. It might be relevant for the Korean market, but for the international one it might as well not matter at all. I'm not even speaking of all other genres aside from RTS, I highly doubt the average fighting game / mobile phone stuff / FPS player / sponsor has heard about savior and how he single handedly brought KeSPA to its knees. eSports is a nice phrase to hide behind, not more.
Literally the only person to act butthurt with a reason here would be Sonic, who surprisingly, is the only person to act calm and rational. Hats off, again.
I'd also like to know what KeSPA thinks Blizzard should be doing right now. If they really do press charges or try to force the Chinese, they can't possibly know about the outcome. While Korean is a more Western society with its laws, China really isn't. I have no idea how the structure of SCNTV is, but I doubt they're as easily going down as KeSPA was, they're not that depended on Irvine. If Blizzad ignores KeSPA, KeSPA looks like an idiot. If Blizzard goes after SCNTV and gets ignored, no Chinese organizer will take them seriously. If they fail to succeed, it ends the same - only, and only if, Blizzard manages to really take down SCNTV in court, this might work out, all over a title they care little about today. This isn't the holy cow wow, or its ugly sister SCII, it's a dead game in their eyes.
to xiphos: If savior's participation in BW tourney like this is good for the scene, how do you explain Sonic requesting them to not allow savior in and even threatening with not allowing chinese players in his own events? I think Sonic has proven to be a good enough business man over the years, so surely, he must have a good reason he didn't want all this to happen.
It's not as easy as saying 'it's good for chinese bw so it's good for bw'. You have to think about the bigger picture as well, in the very least, savior is clearly dividing the scene. The PR damage to korean BW scene should also be obvious enough.
I'll admit I'm not capable of judging if one is more important than the other, but I don't need much time to decide if I want to support sonic or savior.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
I think Kespa is too harsh, and they really changed the way of thinking of many people here.
Gaming is his profession and taking away from him, what else can he do... I just feel this happened in history before, thinking it is okay to be harsh to some people because of government propaganda.
I mean, every1 is the same as Savior, they will fucked up from time to time in their life. When u did something bad, u will feel bad and hope for forgiveness. Maybe baffled, why the world is full of hate.
Ah, I feel like preaching something..
But anyway, let's start now, have a big heart. Let Savior start anew. Okay? Pretty sure something good will come in ur life, if u do that. kekeke.
Unless he did the same thing 2nd time. I believe he deserve 2nd chance.
Who does kespa think they are? Like they can tell other organizations what they are allowed to do, especially after they dropped BW. They can go suck a dick. And sonic banning all Chinese players for something they have no control over is just racist.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
1) The guy never did any "time". As soon as he was kicked out he started afreeca streaming and continued making money. Moreover, BW was ended shortly after he was banned, so it's not like he has been banned from KeSPA events for that long. Moreover, most sports bans for violations are lengthy: 2-4+ years is not at all uncommon.
2) Much more importantly, the guy has no fucking remorse at all. He has literally not even apologized for matchfixing. He is sorry...that he got caught. I really don't think he has any issues with what he actually did. In addition to not apologizing he has taken actions that are directly harmful to BW (streaming on Afreeca, which has directly decreased the credibility of other Afreeca streams; if this doesn't make sense, see iloveoov comments) as well as bashed BW saying something like "only idiots play 2D games in this day and age".
I'm for second chances (except for doping in athletics...but that is for another day). However, I have NO reason to believe Savior has changed whatsoever. Let him back in, and chances are he will go right back to matchfixing if the opportunity presented itself. If Savior had prostrated himself with apology, left BW alone for a while and generally been remorseful and was just now asking to return...I could see myself considering it.
Don't forget that saviors reputation is tarnished, and his return will make it MUCH more difficult to attract sponsors and establish a good reputation for BW. Even if you blindy love savior, I think you have to ask yourself is it worth it to bring this guy back, knowing that just his presence is likely to prevent, or even reverse, the progress that has been made in the last year?
Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
Why do people keep blaming saviour for the death of BW lol...
sAviOr was banned from professional e-sport scene in Korea if I recall?
In this case a sponsored tourney in China has nothing to do with this, if they are not happy about this news which is understandable, all I can say is "too bad for them", it's also their right to complain to Blizzard if they want.
And Op, seriously posting a thread like this... if you just want people whining like you, make a private channel and baby cry with your friends. sAviOr's case is settled already, if you are not happy about this, try to do something about it maybe, cut off his hands or kill him so your wish will be exhausted.
i don't know what's funnier, kespa getting all righteous after they forfeited the right to have any sort of say in this matter when they deserted brood war, or whatever this tournament is that allowed him to play
On December 03 2013 03:18 iFU.pauline wrote: sAviOr was banned from professional e-sport scene in Korea if I recall?
In this case a sponsored tourney in China has nothing to do with this, if they are not happy about this news which is understandable, all I can say is "too bad for them", it's also their right to complain to Blizzard if they want.
And Op, seriously posting a thread like this... if you just want people whining like you, make a private channel and baby cry with your friends. sAviOr's case is settled already, if you are not happy about this, try to do something about it maybe, cut off his hands or kill him so your wish will be exhausted.
Seriously at this point, it's called a troll...
Btw, those games were very entertaining
You gotta admit, these threads are reviving the BW community. Look how many pages they get. Kespa is so genius.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
Why do people keep blaming saviour for the death of BW lol...
I don't blame him for the death of BW, I blame him for ruining the promising careers of numerous players (including his own) as well as damaging the esports scene, as well as not responding apologetically later on when he's had ample opportunity to. Most rational observers feel the exact same way.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
Why do people keep blaming saviour for the death of BW lol...
“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” -Kespa/Blizzard
As someone who's never seen Savior play, but has read a lot about him (and admittedly is curious about what it must have been like to live through his dominance - though not curious enough to go hunting VODs etc down), my take:
A lot of people need to move on from the Savior situation still. At the end of the day it's really none of the fans business whether he plays in tournaments (or even the game at all) anymore. In the same vein, if it isn't under their jurisdiction that he's doing it it's none of KeSPA's business either. Blizzard don't exist to be an enforcement body for crimes that they never pursued any interest towards to date either, so again - not really their concern.
Did he do a lot of damage to the scene? Yes, though not alone. Has his behaviour over that fact been admirable? No, it hasn't. But by continuing to draw attention to it and produce thread after thread about it, not letting the issue fade from the public eye, people aren't really doing anything other than give Savior publicity intentionally or not and making the community seem very bitter and unfriendly. There is an awful lot of positivity in the BW scene right now thanks to Sonic. People should be talking about that, not continually reigniting the flames of hate against Savior whenever an opportunity arises.
So sure the guy may have played in a tournament again and won some money (legally, I might add), but let it go - all running the fact over the coals like this does is make more uninformed people curious, which gives him more attention (it's how I came to read up on him) and feeds the flames MORE when these people's interest upsets those still angry at Savior. Unless it starts damaging the shoots of recovery that are growing for BW as a whole, lets move on. Learn from the past, but don't stay continually mired in it.
On December 03 2013 03:18 iFU.pauline wrote: sAviOr was banned from professional e-sport scene in Korea if I recall?
In this case a sponsored tourney in China has nothing to do with this, if they are not happy about this news which is understandable, all I can say is "too bad for them", it's also their right to complain to Blizzard if they want.
And Op, seriously posting a thread like this... if you just want people whining like you, make a private channel and baby cry with your friends. sAviOr's case is settled already, if you are not happy about this, try to do something about it maybe, cut off his hands or kill him so your wish will be exhausted.
Seriously at this point, it's called a troll...
Btw, those games were very entertaining
You gotta admit, these threads are reviving the BW community. Look how many pages they get. Kespa is so genius.
This thread is reviving the bad side of brood war and it's not savior's fault in this case...
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
Why do people keep blaming saviour for the death of BW lol...
I don't blame him for the death of BW, I blame him for ruining the promising careers of numerous players (including his own) as well as damaging the esports scene, as well as not responding apologetically later on when he's had ample opportunity to. Most rational observers feel the exact same way.
Oh definitely, I agree with you on these points.
But there are serious people out there who believe we'd still have real professional BW (MSL/OSL) like we used to when saviour hadn't matchfixed.
On December 02 2013 20:24 goody153 wrote: as far as i know blizzard cant give a fuck on who plays their game as long as they brought it right? even if blizzard would want to intercept i dont think they could
If you want to stream a BW tournament and make money of it, you need to obtain a license from Blizzard. Seems like Chinese don't care about that stuff too much and probably didn't bother getting one. Will they just show Blizzard the middle finger? I have no idea how this stuff works on international grounds.
And im pretty sure no ones gonna be able to get China to do shit tbh. Literally they have the highest piracy rate on the planet and everyone knows it(think I read on here it was like 95% orsomething one time) and I doubt they care about a license from blizzard anyway lol.
China is a safe non judgmental place where all those who were shunned out of their community to join. They give the "New Life" opportunity. If China wants all these players in it, I have absolutely no problem, but more than likely history will repeat itself and I'm concerned that their scene will soon become corrupted.(If it already isn't) But concerns for KeSPA whining to Blizzard, its absolute bullshit, and keSPA really should get the fuck off Saviors back, and what's left of the Brood War Community.
I am all for China taking in whoever they want, cause their system seems to be working, and they have the crowd to do it. But KeSPA needs to back down, and focus on what they are already doing SC2.
excuse the language but KeSPA just wants to ruin a man, and that in itself is unfair. They should have no jurisdiction outside of their country.
On December 03 2013 03:18 iFU.pauline wrote: sAviOr was banned from professional e-sport scene in Korea if I recall?
In this case a sponsored tourney in China has nothing to do with this, if they are not happy about this news which is understandable, all I can say is "too bad for them", it's also their right to complain to Blizzard if they want.
And Op, seriously posting a thread like this... if you just want people whining like you, make a private channel and baby cry with your friends. sAviOr's case is settled already, if you are not happy about this, try to do something about it maybe, cut off his hands or kill him so your wish will be exhausted.
Seriously at this point, it's called a troll...
Btw, those games were very entertaining
You gotta admit, these threads are reviving the BW community. Look how many pages they get. Kespa is so genius.
This thread is reviving the bad side of brood war and it's not savior's fault in this case...
I was being sarcastic However, the news side of the OP is needed because I think we are all very interested in following this story line regardless of the side we take.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
umm....no, the guy single handedly destroyed BW Esports, and now it is still ok for him to make 25K off BW ? Nah man just nah, he needs to be exiled so this game can regrow and flourish the way it used to.
Why do people keep blaming saviour for the death of BW lol...
Its almost like Blizzard and KeSPA didn't work pretty much hand in hand to kill BW, the scene was alive for a while after they got caught match fixing.
Rekrul even hinted at it in a blog a few years before they got caught too iirc.
I can't really seem to understand people who defend Savior. If they were really passionate about BW and reviving the scene, then they would know that letting Savior play in even foreign BW tournaments would only hurt the scene overall. The fact that they don't understand the consequences of letting Savior play BW competitively tells me that they either weren't there for the matchmaking scandal or they don't understand what the matchmaking scandal did for the BW scene back then. Just because you have forgiven Savior doesn't mean Korea has. Seeing as how Sonic is a Korean league and it is the only thing that can revive the BW scene, it doesn't make sense to say it is ok for Savior to play BW. If this causes sponsors to withdraw from Sonic then the BW scene will die. Why would sponsors try to sponsor a scene where someone like Savior can still play competitively, even if it is in foreign tournaments? It boggles my mind that people can defend Savior. You can be a fan of him and his days before the scandal but don't say he should be able to play after the scandal. What does the fact that he did not even apologize and that he is trying to make money off a scene he took part in destroying tell you?
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
I'd rather have Savior play than have Blizzard show their faces again. I'm still seething with rage when I recall those 'Not the end, new beginning" ads from the last OSL.
And it's not like Savior is likely to play in anything in Korea, so there'd be little point to rope Blizzard in anyhow ~_~.
Xiphos wrote: So many things wrong with this post.
1. If sAviOr didn't have skill necessary to compete, he wouldn't have won the 2 vs 2 tournament, fallacious logic one.
2. Beside sAviOr weren't invited to lose games just for the hell of it. Its not like the organization invited him to lose games but to compete honorably which again he did so with result.
3. Second quotation is just attacking the poster while reiterating first point, completely useless. Seriousness fuck Kespa and Blizzard for what they did. BW died because of THEM. If SC2 weren't pushed at all in Korea with pressure, BW progaming would still have persisted.
4. scnTV is doing good for the BW scene. "Good is good if it is good for me." I don't care whether or not Kespa did great things for BW in the past. Why don't you try living in the present, Kespa is gone from BW forever (unless otherwise). Fuck other E-sports, I ONLY care about BW. And that's pretty much what Kespa is doing right now, they are bored so they decide to use some of that time to eliminate other competition from SC2. By getting rid of scnTV, you are essentially shrinking the BW scene. I'm flabbergasted that any BW fan would even begin to stupidly think that's beneficial for the scene.
Intellectual dwarfism is so sad. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Lesson #1: Learn to read please, my mentally challenged friend. I didn't say that he couldn't beat Chinese-level players in 2-v-2. I wrote that he can't beat the 2nd-rate ex-Pros on Afreeca, who are still better than most Chinese-level players. Savior had his eyebrows shaved by the likes of Britney and Terror for fuck's sake because he lost to those dishwashers.
Remedial class: Review Lesson #1. No one said that he was invited to lose games.
Lesson #2: Like it or not, what you did in the past matters. Savior competing "honorably" and not match-fixing (oh what low standards we have!) today does not change the fact that his past actions carry with him an unshakable stigma. Normal parents would not be happy to send their kids to a class taught by a convicted child molester no matter how rehabilitated and "honorable" that teacher is being today.
Lesson #3: More than one person can be at fault. I dislike KeSPA and Blizzard as much as the next person, but this is just classic misdirection. KeSPA and Blizzard being very baaaad doesn't somehow magically wipe away the stink of the massive diarrhea that Savior excreted on BW's face.
Lesson #4: Stupidity makes people paranoid. What's with this conspiracy about KeSPA being afraid of BW and trying to eliminate competition? The most popular BW channels usually don't get much more than 2000~4000 viewers during peak hours. KeSPA could give two shits about BW threatening SC2, despite SC2 being an unpopular game. KeSPA is raking in the LoL dough and would even be happy to drop SC2 completely if it didn't mean sustaining the PR hit of kicking a bunch of pro players to the curb.
I agree with the sentiment "fuck other e-Sports." Guess what? I only care about BW as well. I care enough to put up a couple hundred bucks of my own money for show matches. KeSPA/Blizzard being evil, SC2 being a terrible game, these are all true facts, but they are also red herring irrelevant to the case at hand.
Remedial class: Review lesson #1. No one is pushing for the elimination of scnTV. Blizzard doesn't even charge that much for broadcasting rights. What people want is for a convicted match-fixer to be banned from tainting the integrity of scnTV with his presence. Creating this sort of false dichotomy is very bad form. I am cheering for scnTV to succeed...just without Savior.
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds.
Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol.
So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player.
I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now.
On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
You're absolutely right, but Savior does bring a very vocal minority of crazy+stupid fans...if you can call that a benefit. Larva would absolutely kick Savior's ass at this point. Zero played Bisu to a stalemate in a series of matches today. If people really cared about quality BW, they would rally behind the awesome Zergs we do have left like hero, Zero, and killer, rather than some has-been with a tainted past.
On December 03 2013 03:30 Lordanubis wrote: A lot of people need to move on from the Savior situation still. At the end of the day it's really none of the fans business whether he plays in tournaments (or even the game at all) anymore.
I really don't get this part of your post (while I do agree that this is none of Kespa's/Blizzard's business).
It's completely the fan's business whether he plays. They're the ones watching. They're the ones that sponsors are appealing to. If nobody watched because Savior was playing, it would mean that the tournament itself would've been doomed.
As it appears, many people watched because of Savior. Do I think he should be forgiven? No. Would I personally watch a game of his? No. But if he's getting people to watch Brood War, you can't argue that he's at least an effective marketing tool for a tournament.
And just a quick aside: I doubt that he'll ever play in a tournament in Korea again, because most of the Koreans won't forgive him for his transgressions (although Afreeca trends appear to say otherwise, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass!). However, if he can find a way to play in China or what not and those people want to support him, then good for him. I'll continue ignoring those games (but then again, I watch very little BW nowadays...).
And just a quick aside: I doubt that he'll ever play in a tournament in Korea again, because most of the Koreans won't forgive him for his transgressions (although Afreeca trends appear to say otherwise, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass!). .
He probably won't be able to play in a tournament because even if some tournament organizer with the means to host a tournament and invite him, a lot of other players will most likely decline to participate if Savior is involved, which would make the tournament a bit farcical.
I hope Blizzard doesn't get involved. They have no stake in this and no right to interfere beyond their legal rights. This kind of issue is self-regulating.
On December 03 2013 04:18 lemmata wrote: Lesson #1: Learn to read please, my mentally challenged friend.
Genuinely curious here; does the BW-section of TL.net operate on a different set of rules where expressing yourself like this is fine?
Apparently not! I've been taught a lesson myself! How ironic. I can make fun of myself, right?
On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Viewers. There is no scene without viewers.
On Afreeca, Savior's audience is dying compared to the other BW channels. As for the Chinese audience, to say that Savior is the one who made them show up is based on faulty reasoning. We don't know how many people would have shown up if Savior was not there. Given that Chinese people are awesome and love BW, I would guess that attendance levels would have been just fine without the presence of the match-fixer.
In general, I've found that Chinese fans care more about skill level than anything else when it comes to sports. Even when Yao Ming was an all-star, he moved less product in China than Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. They are far more sophisticated than people give them credit for because of the language barrier. I think that most Chinese fans would have been happier to get top class players instead of Savior. Of course, this part of my post is pure conjecture, but I am just pointing out that attributing high attendance to Savior's presence is not a sound logical argument.
Kespa no longer has any stakes in BW, so they can go fuck themselves. Even if they did, Chinese scene is separate and they can do their own shit. Why is the Savior scandal still a thing? Live and let live, the fucker's paid his dues by now.
On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds.
Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol.
So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player.
I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now.
On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
Viewers. There is no scene without viewers.
do people really care that much to see Savior play again?
My questions was more for people in this forum. But you did answer it for yourself too. So thanks for the honest answer. And I don't hate you for wanting to watch Savior. Obviously he was a great player.
Myself personally, I am ready for the scene to make new names and have new heroes. He was part a great era that existed long ago and Jaedong took over his throne. I'm excited to watch the next Jaedong rise in the BW 2.0 era. That is why I don't care if Savior plays. I guess I'm just thinking forward instead of being nostalgic. It's also why I still supported BW even when Bisu was gone. I am ready for the new era.
On Afreeca, Savior's audience is dying compared to the other BW channels. As for the Chinese audience, to say that Savior is the one who made them show up is based on faulty reasoning. We don't know how many people would have shown up if Savior was not there. Given that Chinese people are awesome and love BW, I would guess that attendance levels would have been just fine without the presence of the match-fixer.
In general, I've found that Chinese fans care more about skill level than anything else when it comes to sports. Even when Yao Ming was an all-star, he moved less product in China than Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan. They are far more sophisticated than people give them credit for because of the language barrier. I think that most Chinese fans would have been happier to get top class players instead of Savior. Of course, this part of my post is pure conjecture, but I am just pointing out that attributing high attendance to Savior's presence is not a sound logical argument.
I can confidently assure you that without Savior, the tournament, while still passable, would've attracted far, far less interest than it did.
On December 03 2013 04:47 thezanursic wrote: Lets tone this down a notch and actually wait for Blizzard to respond before we continue this needlessly ardent discussion.
I would be extremely surprised if Blizzard responded to this at all with anything beyond a cursory non-message. My personal suspicion is that Blizzard had barely any knowledge of anything KeSPA is doing/claiming, and it will be far more likely for us to see Blizzard distance themselves from the situation than any real reaction to it. I doubt Blizzard has either the desire or the ability to involve itself in this.
On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds.
Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol.
So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player.
I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now.
On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
do people really care that much to see Savior play again?
My questions was more for people in this forum. But you did answer it for yourself too. So thanks for the honest answer. And I don't hate you for wanting to watch Savior. Obviously he was a great player.
Myself personally, I am ready for the scene to make new names and have new heroes. He was part a great era that existed long ago and Jaedong took over his throne. I'm excited to watch the next Jaedong rise in the BW 2.0 era. That is why I don't care if Savior plays. I guess I'm just thinking forward instead of being nostalgic. It's also why I still supported BW even when Bisu was gone. I am ready for the new era.
That's a great attitude, but unfortunately I think it's a tad naive. What remains of the scene is built upon the old, and everything we have right now is pretty much a callback to the golden days of BW - the team tournaments we have are still organized by the old proleague teams, for example. As stands, the only people who are really playing/invovled in the scene are old BW pros/semi-pros, without a real influx of new amateurs. These are technically "new" names, but they're still old names in that they have been around, to varying degrees of prominence, in the old BW pro-scene.
At this point, realistically speaking, I think it will be impossible to have a wholly new scene without calling upon the memories of the old scene every step of the way, mainly because, well, the names we see today have a strong overlap with the names we saw three years ago.
The fuck? This shit seriously pisses me off. KeSPA doesn't manage any BW-teams, they aren't hosting any BW leagues and, what's more, they're pretty much the reason that the current state of BW is what it is. And they still think they have the right to boss anyone (in BW) around?
Fuck savior, he shouldn't get any money -- but that doesn't give KeSPA the right to pull shit like this
kespa should concentrate managing on their own leagues, especially when they abandoned brood war already. But I understand, kespa is known for making silly decisions.
Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for
On December 03 2013 05:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for
I would be. Do they know each other well? Any insight into Savior wouls be interesting in my opinion.
On December 03 2013 04:18 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On December 03 2013 03:15 BisuDagger wrote: Is anyone here convinced that we actually need Savior to sustain BW? Disregard Kespa and Blizzard, do people really care that much to see Savior play again? I'd rather watch fun zerg players like Larva any day over Savior. Besides, why support a zerg that couldn't do what Shine could?
It's a Chinese tournament for Chinese viewers, and I promise you no one in China cares about Shine or Larva, or has even heard of them in comparison , whereas Savior will draw the crowds.
Hell, just look at TL, any Savior topic brings out the crowds lol.
So yes, like it or not, people are interested in Savior play, much more than pretty much any SSL player.
I mean if you want to bring up anecdotal evidence of "I'd rather watch X," I might as well come out and say I'd rather watch Savior play than pretty much any of the SSL people right now.
On December 03 2013 04:04 sns3rsam wrote:
Exactly. What benefits do Savior bring to a reviving BW scene? Absolutely nothing. He only carries a bad image and he can only hurt the scene.
Viewers. There is no scene without viewers.
It's a little more complicated than just that though. Viewers are important to have a scene at all of course, but that's not everything. Viewers attract sponsors. Sponsors bring money. Money brings bigger, better, more visible tournaments, which in turn brings more viewers. Savior may bring viewers, but he also delegitimizes the scene. He scares away sponsors and their money. Other players refuse to participate in tournaments that include Savior, making the tournament smaller, worse, and less viewed. His mere presence is harmful to any kind of sustainability the reviving BW scene might be hoping to achieve.
Merely saying "there is no scene without viewers" doesn't address why viewers are important to the scene, the sorts of things viewers do for the scene and what all of the things the scene actually needs are. Just because he brings viewers doesn't mean that he isn't still harmful to the scene's legitimacy+status+image and inhibits its (re)growth. In the short term there may be people who want to see him play again, but this sort of short-sighted tolerance of someone who delegitimized the scene once already is further delegitimizing the scene+ Show Spoiler +
(The whole scene becomes even more disreputable again because they don't care enough to keep him out. It(bw esports scene) says to the world we don't care that he made us untrustworthy because we didn't care about being trustworthy anyway. It makes the matchfixing scandal go from tragic misstep to he shat on the scene and not only did the scene not care but it went so far as to shit on itself again to bring him back [despite the name similarity he isn't Jesus and he shouldn't come back, he can't save the scene, only destroy it again]. BW deserves better, it deserves more. But if the BW scene truly wants him back, then I'm going to go cry in the corner for having wasted so much of my life on a scene that does not care one whit about itself. This sort of behavior makes me ASHAMED to call myself a fan of the BW scene. )
On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote: This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc...
"Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie.
On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance."
What I was planning to write has already been written so TL;DR I understand people not wanting Saviour to play, he should apologize since he apparently hasn't but KeSPA should have no say since the tournament is based in China. Doubt Blizzard would or can do anything since licenses and such aren't seen as being important in China either.
On December 03 2013 05:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Savior's 2v2 partner wrote a post about his experience at the tourney + playing with Savior, would be people be interested? Nothing super juicy or dramatic if that's what you're hoping for
On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote: This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc...
"Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie.
On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance."
On December 03 2013 05:35 HaFnium wrote: This is not KESPA's business. I do agree however, that saviour should be banned.
The best way is for the players to act. I.e. beast/movie & co say that if saviour is playing we wont come etc...
"Movie turned down the invitation after hearing about Savior participating, but then Savior failed to qualify so Movie accepted for the prizepool and his Chinese fans. However, as we know, the sponsor insisted on Savior's participation so this became an unwelcoming company to Movie.
On SCNTV homepage this wouldn't be mentioned, but the rumours of Movie and Savior using separate rooms are everywhere. In fact, if you look at the photos it's clear the two are keeping their distance."
I don't understand why all of this discussion is being made on the basis that any tournament organiser of any Blizzard game needs to obtain a license.
The licensing requirement is purported to be required by Blizzard, but as far as I can tell, no court has upheld this requirement. KeSPA settled their dispute with Blizzard without obtaining a judgment from any court.
Moreover, AFAIK, there is not a single legal precedent anywhere in the world in which a tournament or any other televised broadcast of any proprietary tool or game being used is subject to licensing.
Meaning, KeSPA probably settled with Blizzard to minimize the damage to their reputation and ability to attract sponsors, and are now seeking to unleash the same injustice and undue burden on another tournament organiser.
On December 02 2013 18:24 rabidch wrote: stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all
It's blizzard game, not Chinese game. Blizzard had to allow and allowed chinese to host this.
So? Chinese want to invite Savior?
Then play Blood war, chinese are good at copying.
First, my argument against has nothing to do with Savior apologetics. At one point, I was of the view that he should be given a second chance, but I am now of the opinion that he is about as apologetic as Rob Ford. I don't harbour immense hatred towards him, but I don't want to see him back.
However, I don't think we should become so blinded by the end result (banning Savior) that we glaze over the issue with the means. This has zero to do with 'kespa and Blizzard should get lost', but I am concerned with the idea that a gaming company has so much power on who can or cannot play their game in what context once the game has been sold. Sure, ban hackers that are on Blizzard servers. But I dislike the idea of such far reaching influences especially for a game 15 years out of the box.
I'm not sure I like the idea of tourney licenses in the first place, divided out by Blizzard after you have already purchased the game. This seems to compound that precedent.
This almost seems comical. KeSPA, Blizzard, and Savior... some weird combination of everyone who can go fuck themselves, arguing over a tournament they don't have any real power over.
On December 03 2013 06:18 Cheren wrote: Doesn't matter how much Blizzard and Kespa yell, markets will find a way. If there's demand for Savior to play then he will play.
Yet the markets might work the other way when potential sponsors might be scared away again by the lingering stigma against him if he does participate in the scene more.
On December 03 2013 04:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I can confidently assure you that without Savior, the tournament, while still passable, would've attracted far, far less interest than it did.
With all due respect, that's kind of meaningless without data. Also, what is far less? 10%, 20% less? Also, how much of the extra interest is negative versus positive? This is a conjecture, just as my own speculation about the attendance was. We also ignored the possibility of who could have replaced Savior in the lineup. What if Bisu didn't have passport issues and made it to the tourney instead of Savior? We don't get to observe those counterfactuals.
On December 03 2013 04:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: That's a great attitude, but unfortunately I think it's a tad naive. What remains of the scene is built upon the old, and everything we have right now is pretty much a callback to the golden days of BW - the team tournaments we have are still organized by the old proleague teams, for example. As stands, the only people who are really playing/invovled in the scene are old BW pros/semi-pros, without a real influx of new amateurs. These are technically "new" names, but they're still old names in that they have been around, to varying degrees of prominence, in the old BW pro-scene.
At this point, realistically speaking, I think it will be impossible to have a wholly new scene without calling upon the memories of the old scene every step of the way, mainly because, well, the names we see today have a strong overlap with the names we saw three years ago.
How about calling upon the positive memories of the old scene instead of opening up not-so-old wounds? Sonic is doing a great job with this with a far inferior budget. I agree that a link to the past is an effective marketing tool. It's just common sense that Savior is not the right "old timer" to use for such an event. Ignoring everything else, Savior's presence divides the already dwindling BW community. It makes the event seem less classy, like a wrestling match that is going for cheap notoriety. This is unfair to SCNTV, which seems to have done a great job other than inviting a convicted match-fixer, but when you lie with dogs, you get up with fleas. It makes it look like SCNTV is trying to make a quick buck from the short-term burst in attention rather than trying to set up something that is sustainable.
Chinese fans are passionate and great, which makes it all the more sad that they have to be associated with this mess.
On December 03 2013 06:32 Darksoldierr wrote: Kespa is retarded
Agreed on the conclusion, although not on the reason. They've been retarded for a while now.
On December 03 2013 06:40 mizU wrote: it seems like people forget savior wasn't the only one who match fixed?
No. People do remember. He's just the ring leader who actively recruited those other guys into match-fixing. He's also the only one who really didn't need the money (hence motive=greed rather than need). It makes sense that Al Capone catches more flak than his henchmen, right?
On December 03 2013 06:40 mizU wrote: it seems like people forget savior wasn't the only one who match fixed?
No. People do remember. He's just the ring leader who actively recruited those other guys into match-fixing. He's also the only one who really didn't need the money (hence motive=greed rather than need). It makes sense that Al Capone catches more flak than his henchmen, right?
I think there was someone above him tho, Justin I think? he was just the middle man anyway iirc
On December 03 2013 04:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I can confidently assure you that without Savior, the tournament, while still passable, would've attracted far, far less interest than it did.
With all due respect, that's kind of meaningless without data. Also, what is far less? 10%, 20% less? Also, how much of the extra interest is negative versus positive? This is a conjecture, just as my own speculation about the attendance was. We also ignored the possibility of who could have replaced Savior in the lineup. What if Bisu didn't have passport issues and made it to the tourney instead of Savior? We don't get to observe those counterfactuals.
I can't put a number on it but from what I've read from Savior's partner's experience, it shows that the Chinese are more concerned about skills than about the past(someone posted about this in better and more details in this thread). Since you may have missed this, the SCNTV representative or whoever it was posted in this thread indicating that the organizer wanted Saviour in the tournament. From that, we can come to two options: a) either the organizer was a diehard savior fan who wanted him there badly regardless of outcome or b) they felt positive > negative so it was more beneficial for them to have him there. Point? Based on that experience and options, I have to agree with sheep and lean more towards savior being there attracted more interest in the tournament.
Sounds to me more like Kespa is a little upset that they were able to run an event without a license, and if they wanted to they would have to obtain one from Blizzard
On December 03 2013 06:40 mizU wrote: it seems like people forget savior wasn't the only one who match fixed?
selective memory lol. Savior was the most popular from all of them so naturally, he was the best to use as a scapegoat to send a message.
No.
Savior was the mind behind it. Afaik he never fixed one of his own matches, but he was the go to guy that recruited the other progamers into the matchfixing.
SaviOr does not deserve to play SC. His actions had a major impact in the professional scene in Korea and catalyzed the start of BW's decline. Though it remained popular for many years after, sponsors and viewers still dropped as a result of the scandal.
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote: I can't put a number on it but from what I've read from Savior's partner's experience, it shows that the Chinese are more concerned about skills than about the past.
This will be pretty damn accurate if you make it the other way around, good job. Chinese like Savior because their own celebrities can keep up with him, so what they want him for is his past fame and glory.
Blizzard won't do shit about this, not that I have expected them to do anything BW-related that isn't negative in the past few years. I don't get why he got invited, though. I wish the Chinese had better standards
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
I can also be realistic in my statement of : It shouldnt have been cut down for an inferior game just because it has the name "Starcraft" in the title either.
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote: selective memory lol. Savior was the most popular from all of them so naturally, he was the best to use as a scapegoat to send a message.
Making statements like this deprives you of all credibility. Like to make up stories much? If anything, the corporate interests had a huge incentive to cover up everything to protect CJ, which owns OGN and also has a ton of political influence in Korea. We don't speculate about that because that is all conjecture and zero substance.
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote:I can't put a number on it but from what I've read from Savior's partner's experience, it shows that the Chinese are more concerned about skills than about the past(someone posted about this in better and more details in this thread). Since you may have missed this, the SCNTV representative or whoever it was posted in this thread indicating that the organizer wanted Saviour in the tournament. From that, we can come to two options: a) either the organizer was a diehard savior fan who wanted him there badly regardless of outcome or b) they felt positive > negative so it was more beneficial for them to have him there. Point? Based on that experience and options, I have to agree with sheep and lean more towards savior being there attracted more interest in the tournament.
1) Savior's partner's experience doesn't say much about commercial viability of the tournament if he was replaced by a Korean ex-pro with superior skill, especially when the "flower" of BW is 1v1 and 2v2 was historically more of a sideshow even when it was a part of ProLeague. 2) I wouldn't deny that Savior is quite knowledgeable about the game, but knowledge does not equal skill when you get old. If the organizers cared more about skill, there are plenty of ex-pros on Afreeca who can whip Savior's ass right now. 3) If the sponsor was indeed acting in its own best interests, then it revealed that it's best interests are tied to quick short-term gains rather than long-term sustainability of BW by insisting on having Savior present. I wouldn't deny that there are short-term advantages to the notoriety of Savior, but if you are trying to set up something credible for the long haul, then there are clearly superior alternatives out there.
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
OMG all sports are ages old -.-
e-Sports and actual Sports are not quite the same thing.
I can only side with attempting to stop SAviOr, Luxury and any others like that from participating in official leagues, including outside of Korea. They were intended to be banned from "eSports" on the whole, right? At least stopping them from being involved in anything related to StarCraft, let alone with HUGE PRIZEPOOLS is very much justified.
Please give sAviOr a break. His days of match fixing were years ago. I was literally finishing secondary school and starting college when he first began to fix matches and I was a vastly different person back then. Based on the fact that people always change, I feel that to indict a person for life based on a scandal like this is going a bit overboard.
Just... get over the fact he played in a Chinese tournament already. What's done is done. It's in the past.
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
OMG all sports are ages old -.-
e-Sports and actual Sports are not quite the same thing.
because one thing is played with a computer and the other not?
Sorry, I realise they are not the same thing but why can't we have a game which will be played over decades?
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
OMG all sports are ages old -.-
e-Sports and actual Sports are not quite the same thing.
Yep! "ESPORTS" is based on corporate greed, unlike traditional sports. Therefore a game in "ESPORTS" can't last for longer than a decade; that wouldn't be as profitable for developers and merchandisers.
On December 03 2013 08:53 Clbull wrote: Dear Korea.
Please give sAviOr a break. His days of match fixing were years ago. I was literally finishing secondary school and starting college when he first began to fix matches and I was a vastly different person back then. Based on the fact that people always change, I feel that to indict a person for life based on a scandal like this is going a bit overboard.
Just... get over the fact he played in a Chinese tournament already. What's done is done. It's in the past.
Dear Clbull,
Did you consider that Savior never apologized for his actions and continues to make money off the game he helped destroy?
Ah, why do I bother.. These arguments have been repeated hundreds of times.
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
OMG all sports are ages old -.-
e-Sports and actual Sports are not quite the same thing.
Yep! "ESPORTS" is based on corporate greed, unlike traditional sports. Therefore a game in "ESPORTS" can't last for longer than a decade; that wouldn't be as profitable for developers and merchandisers.
hey lets not give big professional sports a pass here, its also all about money money money
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
You can just be realistic and realize that a game made in '98 wouldn't last forever...
Yeah... A game which is over ten years old surely can't last forever, right....
OMG all sports are ages old -.-
e-Sports and actual Sports are not quite the same thing.
Yep! "ESPORTS" is based on corporate greed, unlike traditional sports. Therefore a game in "ESPORTS" can't last for longer than a decade; that wouldn't be as profitable for developers and merchandisers.
hey lets not give big professional sports a pass here, its also all about money money money
There is greed within sports, sure, but not on all levels. Supporting "ESPORTS" seems to be all about supporting whatever developments are most profitable for developers and merchandisers ("for the sake of ESPORTS")
You won't hear of football fans being told to cheer for the death of football in favor of Football 2 so a company can sell a new type of balls
On December 03 2013 08:53 Clbull wrote: Dear Korea.
Please give sAviOr a break. His days of match fixing were years ago. I was literally finishing secondary school and starting college when he first began to fix matches and I was a vastly different person back then. Based on the fact that people always change, I feel that to indict a person for life based on a scandal like this is going a bit overboard.
Let's forget about the fact that he didn't serve a single day in jail despite his conviction. Let's just pretend that he is a changed man (although the fact that he has sued people for leaving negative comments about him on web sites suggests otherwise...along with many other facts)
We can let him be a part of normal society and treat him like a normal person if we meet him. We can say that he's a good person and stop calling him an asshole. I am fine with that. However, doing that and letting him play in tournaments is a whole different thing. That goes beyond forgiving Savior and extends into the territory of endangering the livelihoods of innocent pro gamers for the sake of "forgiving him". This is another false dichotomy that is often employed in Savior threads. There is actually a middle ground between the two extremes of treating Savior like trash forever and letting him play in BW tournaments. Giving him a second chance at life does not require that we give him a second chance at pro gaming. He can sell cell phones like Ji Young-hoon.
On December 03 2013 08:53 Clbull wrote: Just... get over the fact he played in a Chinese tournament already. What's done is done. It's in the past.
Yeah, it's done, which is why people are calling for Chinese cooperation with future tournaments...which would take effect in the...future.
On December 02 2013 18:04 zeo wrote: Blizzard can fuck off. Them having anything to do with BW is even worse than savior playing every event normaly like nothing happened...
Creating the game is a pretty significant thing having to do with it
Kespa is still being a whiny bitch about one of their star players who made a critical mistake in his gaming career because he wants to play in a tournament that's not Kespa sanctioned, and now they're complaining to Papa Bear so he will make sure that their childish actions go through?
I understand Kespa is mad at Savior for what he did, but what they're doing right now is out right fucking stupid. You guys created the system that created him, then are mad at him for continuing to play tournaments and showmatch events in a game you trained him to play? He doesn't have other skills, and it's something he was amazing at. If he can't play in Kespa sanctioned tournaments, fine, but don't be childish fucking pricks and attempt to stop him from doing it outside of Korea.
I fucking hate Kespa, and I honestly hope they fail. Look, I know they're making Esports in Korea great, but they're oppressors, and are going to be worse for this scene in the long run. Get these fuck tards out of this business please.
It's SCNTV's money, they can invite whoever they want. Obviously the fans wanted Savior to play, he also got an insane amount of views when he was frequenting afreeca.
Do people know that even Sonic has obtained a license from Blizzard so that he can continue running his leagues? It costs nearly nil to obtain the license. What makes SCNTV so special that they can bypass this process? As far as I know, Sonic is not allowed to invite players who have been banned as part of the licensing agreement.
Also, when local sports leagues ban someone, it is standard operating procedure to ask the international governing body to enforce these bans across borders. It's certainly not uncommon in soccer. In this case, that governing body happens to be Blizzard. That may seem unnatural because Blizzard is a corporate entity, but it is what it is. It is needed in order to make the bans be effective.
What's all this about the SCNTV not obtaining a license from Blizzard? Has it even been established that such a license is necessary in China? Of course Blizzard will say that it is, but that matters very little unless Chinese law agrees with them. If I remember correctly there was a pretty fierce legal battle regarding licensing terms in South Korea, but I've never heard of anything similar happening in China.
On December 03 2013 09:38 hoby2000 wrote: Here's what I got from this:
Kespa is still being a whiny bitch about one of their star players who made a critical mistake in his gaming career because he wants to play in a tournament that's not Kespa sanctioned, and now they're complaining to Papa Bear so he will make sure that their childish actions go through?
I understand Kespa is mad at Savior for what he did, but what they're doing right now is out right fucking stupid. You guys created the system that created him, then are mad at him for continuing to play tournaments and showmatch events in a game you trained him to play? He doesn't have other skills, and it's something he was amazing at. If he can't play in Kespa sanctioned tournaments, fine, but don't be childish fucking pricks and attempt to stop him from doing it outside of Korea.
I fucking hate Kespa, and I honestly hope they fail. Look, I know they're making Esports in Korea great, but they're oppressors, and are going to be worse for this scene in the long run. Get these fuck tards out of this business please.
So you don't think that eSports should have the same sort of sanctioning system as other world sports, where if one body sanctions someone, it impacts their ability to play/etc elsewhere? Because in most sports, it would be pretty standard for someone punished by one country to be unable to participate elsewhere as well.
Kespa is the Italian body, Blizzard is the worldwide body. Kespa banned him for life, and then asked Blizzard to extend the ban to worldwide. He was criminally charged. THIS SORT OF THING IS STANDARD IN REAL SPORTS.
On December 02 2013 18:31 Hyeon wrote: please, stop suking Savior and other matchfix guys. He ruined your fav MBC and Ongamenet broodwar league and damaged his progamer friends.
If he's a real person and has a "brain", he shouldn't show up on afreeca and beg money with broodwar.
pretty much this. I feel just about the same way after Savior destroyed the pro-BW scene in Korea.
I have no issue with Savior personally and I don't feel that we can or should stop him from participating in events/afreeca if that is his choice or the sponsors choice.
Everyone should just remember that Savior is pretty much the #1 reason sponsors stopped sponsoring BW (it was seen as "pure, untainted") in Korea and led to OGN and MBC dropping BW and gaming altogether in the case of NBC. Savior and Justin were the worst (iirc Justin was the ringleader of the matchfixing among progamers, Savior was just the most famous). Fuck you Ma Jae Yoon.
I get being passionate about StarCraft in general. I honestly enjoyed watching competitive BW, competitive WC3, competitive SC2, various non-RTS non-Blizzard games(Such as Street Fighter 3 & Street Fighter 4). I like seeing them be healthy and successful. Honestly as a gamer, as someone who has had video games as a hobby since the early 90s, it's awesome to be able to experience the feeling that sports fans get but for something that's relevant to me.
It really sucks that SaviOr was involved in match fixing. It really really sucks. A ban is appropriate, but if he gets to play somewhere it's really not the end of the world. Especially now that he's a bit older, he's probably learned SOMETHING from his mistakes, he most certainly has regrets because it really has to suck to be as unpopular as him. So let him play again, eventually, and see what happens. Worst case scenario he hasn't learned anything and then you ban him for longer. Best case scenario? He actually helps the scene. There was a BW maphacker that moved on to WarCraft 3, apologized, played legit, lived through the controversy of "OMG THIS GUY CHEATED!" and actually contributed to the scene in a meaningful way and displayed top level play that entertained fans.
Giving someone another chance isn't going to hurt the scene. Two companies that don't even care about the game anymore trying to interfere however might, and the scene is fragile enough as it is.
- Is Savior suspected for still doing this stuff and if yes, is there any proof? - What does KeSpa have to do with it? Do they just hate Savior this much that they just mess with stuff the have no business in messing with? - Not really sure if Savior hasn't been punished enough - if he doesn't do shady stuff again, why not let him play? But I guess that's up to discussion and I really can't remember how bad it was with Savior.
On December 03 2013 10:31 kickinhead wrote: I don't really get it:
- Is Savior suspected for still doing this stuff and if yes, is there any proof? - What does KeSpa have to do with it? Do they just hate Savior this much that they just mess with stuff the have no business in messing with? - Not really sure if Savior hasn't been punished enough - if he doesn't do shady stuff again, why not let him play? But I guess that's up to discussion and I really can't remember how bad it was with Savior.
-no -kespa are fucking morons. i can understand them not being his biggest fan, but even back in the bw heydays they were morons. -h8rs gonna hate
Letting match fixers return to the pro (or semi-pro atm) scene would be the joke of the century. No other sport allows match fixers and druggies back into their game. IMO allowing cheaters to return would undermine the integrity of the sport just as much as the cheating itself.
However it is Savior's right to continue playing BW and streaming on afreeca, and nobody in China or Blizzard gives a fuck if he plays in other tournaments so this whole discussion is pointless. Sonic isn't going to let any of them play in his leagues and that's what matters.
BW still being played ?!? holly shitttt I thought it died out after blizzard gave birth and forced kespa to pay child support. Lets get these chinese streams up!!.... I'd tune in any day, beats this deathball dance AOE bull crap we keep getting in a young SC2.
On December 03 2013 06:40 mizU wrote: it seems like people forget savior wasn't the only one who match fixed?
selective memory lol. Savior was the most popular from all of them so naturally, he was the best to use as a scapegoat to send a message.
No.
Savior was the mind behind it. Afaik he never fixed one of his own matches, but he was the go to guy that recruited the other progamers into the matchfixing.
It is though because as I recall reading, Justin had a bigger hand or something. I don't know if he fixed one of his own matches or not and yes, he recruited others but you guys make it sound like he gave them no choice or something lol. I mean maybe he did but they also made the choice to get involved in it so I think they should get just as much blame (although some have already sincerely apologized to the fans and moved on so I respect that).
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote: I can't put a number on it but from what I've read from Savior's partner's experience, it shows that the Chinese are more concerned about skills than about the past.
This will be pretty damn accurate if you make it the other way around, good job. Chinese like Savior because their own celebrities can keep up with him, so what they want him for is his past fame and glory.
Maybe? who knows the reason they like him? I was generalizing based on his partner's experience. I don't know if you read the translation or not but his partner was pretty respectful against someone who's seen as scum and should be banned from the BW community in general. He talked about how amazing he was, nice, talkative, relaxed under pressure(for most of the time) etc...
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote: selective memory lol. Savior was the most popular from all of them so naturally, he was the best to use as a scapegoat to send a message.
Making statements like this deprives you of all credibility. Like to make up stories much? If anything, the corporate interests had a huge incentive to cover up everything to protect CJ, which owns OGN and also has a ton of political influence in Korea. We don't speculate about that because that is all conjecture and zero substance.
On December 03 2013 07:47 BigFan wrote:I can't put a number on it but from what I've read from Savior's partner's experience, it shows that the Chinese are more concerned about skills than about the past(someone posted about this in better and more details in this thread). Since you may have missed this, the SCNTV representative or whoever it was posted in this thread indicating that the organizer wanted Saviour in the tournament. From that, we can come to two options: a) either the organizer was a diehard savior fan who wanted him there badly regardless of outcome or b) they felt positive > negative so it was more beneficial for them to have him there. Point? Based on that experience and options, I have to agree with sheep and lean more towards savior being there attracted more interest in the tournament.
1) Savior's partner's experience doesn't say much about commercial viability of the tournament if he was replaced by a Korean ex-pro with superior skill, especially when the "flower" of BW is 1v1 and 2v2 was historically more of a sideshow even when it was a part of ProLeague. 2) I wouldn't deny that Savior is quite knowledgeable about the game, but knowledge does not equal skill when you get old. If the organizers cared more about skill, there are plenty of ex-pros on Afreeca who can whip Savior's ass right now. 3) If the sponsor was indeed acting in its own best interests, then it revealed that it's best interests are tied to quick short-term gains rather than long-term sustainability of BW by insisting on having Savior present. I wouldn't deny that there are short-term advantages to the notoriety of Savior, but if you are trying to set up something credible for the long haul, then there are clearly superior alternatives out there.
no, it doesn't. There wasn't anything specific in my sentence that caused me to lose credibility. People are focused so much on Saviour that they don't seem to realize or are forgetting that there are other match fixers as well. They also had a choice to make and decided to match fix. That's not made up lol. I'm not talking levels of match fixing or who's more involved. There were no stories being made up here. Saviour was the most popular from the match fixers by far. Heck, even with my limited BW knowledge, I'm aware of that fact. There's a reason there was TL articles about him, he's considered a bonjwa and the maestro etc...
I never was aiming for commercial viability, just an objective account from someone who's not his friend per se. It's much better than all the subjective accounts we get. I haven't watched his stream and missed the tourney so I dunno what his level was like. I was mostly talking about the amount of respect he got from his partner considering his past. Can't say much on #3, the sponsor had their own reasons for inviting him and who knows what they are.
Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
On December 03 2013 10:40 aka_star wrote: BW still being played ?!? holly shitttt I thought it died out after blizzard gave birth and forced kespa to pay child support. Lets get these chinese streams up!!.... I'd tune in any day, beats this deathball dance AOE bull crap we keep getting in a young SC2.
There are still Korean leagues as well, with many of the notable BW pros. Not to mention we have a foreign teamleague and the TLS grandfinals will be starting soon.
On December 03 2013 10:43 BigFan wrote: no, it doesn't. There wasn't anything specific in my sentence that caused me to lose credibility. People are focused so much on Saviour that they don't seem to realize or are forgetting that there are other match fixers as well. They also had a choice to make and decided to match fix. That's not made up lol. I'm not talking levels of match fixing or who's more involved. There were no stories being made up here. Saviour was the most popular from the match fixers by far. Heck, even with my limited BW knowledge, I'm aware of that fact. There's a reason there was TL articles about him, he's considered a bonjwa and the maestro etc...
You said that he was made a scapegoat that is what makes you lose credibility. Selective listing of true statements does not make the conclusion that follows true. He was the freaking ring-leader for fuck's sake. The low-level criminal who sells drugs to children on the street is bad, but the guy who directs the operation as the leader of the gang is even worse, especially if he was already well off and didn't need the extra cash. He abused his position as a respected player and older brother figure to do this. To say that the extra blame and anger directed at Savior is because he was scapegoated for his fame is to ignore all these facts that make him deserving of more blame and anger.
Also, you keep saying that people forget that there are other match-fixers. Repeating that statement will not make it true. No, people haven't forgotten about those other match-fixers. Those other match-fixers have just kept themselves out of the public eye (as they should), whereas Savior is constantly doing things that make the public take notice. This is kind of obvious.
On December 03 2013 10:39 ZeroChrome wrote: Letting match fixers return to the pro (or semi-pro atm) scene would be the joke of the century. No other sport allows match fixers and druggies back into their game. IMO allowing cheaters to return would undermine the integrity of the sport just as much as the cheating itself.
On December 03 2013 09:38 hoby2000 wrote: THIS SORT OF THING IS STANDARD IN REAL SPORTS.
Esports is not real sports, it never has been, it never will be and the sooner people stop pretending otherwise the better it will be for Esports as a whole.
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
Yea fuck Blizzard, they just created the game that totally love and cant live without.
On December 02 2013 18:10 arb wrote: ya blizzard needs to get the fuck on and stay away. they ruined BW in the first place promoting the shitty sequel. they need to stay out of BW unless they plan on reviving it.
Yea fuck Blizzard, they just created the game that totally love and cant live without.
When he says "fuck blizzard" he obviously only means the modern Blizzard.
First of all, people change. It is possible to like someone at one point in time, but not ten years later. Secondly, many of the people who made StarCraft are no longer at Blizzard. They moved on to ArenaNet.
On December 03 2013 09:38 hoby2000 wrote: THIS SORT OF THING IS STANDARD IN REAL SPORTS.
Esports is not real sports, it never has been, it never will be and the sooner people stop pretending otherwise the better it will be for Esports as a whole.
I agree. I feel like differentiating professional gaming from sports by calling them eSports is a bit self-defeating. It's a concept that I really don't think will ever work out.
good. the fact that there are people ignorant or desperate for attention enough to give savior a stage is absolutely disgusting.
the fact that he's even streaming the game that he's hurt so deeply bothers me enough, but to have other people willingly let him sit in their booth or table or even anywhere near a stage is just so wrong.
get your shit together people and keep away from that fucker then we won't have any need for blizzard to shut down anything.
KesPa has not only taken away Ma's eligibility as a professional plyer, but the organization also has banned Ma from any E-sports related events.
Kind of makes no sense. They, both KESPA and Blizard, "banned" Brood War from E-sports and know KESPA says what Chinese organization should do? What exactly they want from scntv?
Man this is rough for me. I remember when it first happened, and watching a clip of Nal_Ra talking to some people about it. And how disgusted he was. At the time I couldn't help but agree with him. This was a BIG deal, and it had to be dealt with in a way that said "never again."
As I've grown and matured since then, I try to live understanding that people make mistakes, and that everybody needs forgiveness. And I remember watching (mostly Klazart) casts of sAviOr and how hyped he'd get about it. His play really was something special.
I want somebody like that back. I do. But I can't. It's like a contradiction that I can't resolve. I can say for sure he should be allowed to play the game. For instance, just because somebody is banned from say MLB doesn't mean he can't go play baseball in a local league. But where do you draw the line? Obviously he can't play in KeSPA again. But is this too professional of a league for him to play in? I don't know...But either way I'll live with it.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
On June 24 2012 14:46 Clefairy wrote:
sAviOr:BW is dead. That's how the world is. How much longer can we play 2D games
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard
the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100%
savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote: Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened:
a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money
not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people
who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors)
to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed.
he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did
at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
Chinese organizers have all the right to include savior if they so wished or wished not, its their tournament, their money. People on the other hand saying that KeSPA has no right to ask them to ban savior because they arent involved with BW anymore. I think they have a good right, considering what they did for 13 years! People tend to forget that when they switched to SC2.
But my guesses on Blizzard are that, they dont care, at all to be frank.
I don't know if MaJaeYoon deserves forgiveness. Did he apologize to Starleage? Did he say sorry to the progamer?
However, I really enjoyed the match in last weekend. Savior performed very good in the SCNTV's tournament (2v2). Thousands of BW fans in China enjoyed the game, either in front of the stage or in front of computer. So for me, I don't care what MaJaeYoon did before. Show us the fun, that's enough.
On December 03 2013 10:13 GeLaar wrote: What's all this about the SCNTV not obtaining a license from Blizzard? Has it even been established that such a license is necessary in China? Of course Blizzard will say that it is, but that matters very little unless Chinese law agrees with them. If I remember correctly there was a pretty fierce legal battle regarding licensing terms in South Korea, but I've never heard of anything similar happening in China.
Copyright is copyright. International treaties exist to enforce them and China has signed many of them. I am sure some tiny backward nations may have not signed such treaties, but China is a major industrial nation and has signed such treaties. Enforcement is an issue in the Wild Wild West that is China, but the black letter legality of copyright is not.
Also, the legal battle in Korea was only fierce on the surface. KeSPA was reluctant to go to court because it was standing on thin legal ice. As much as I dislike Blizzard, the legality of their actions was never really in doubt. Blizzard didn't even want to charge a lot of money. It says a lot about the idiotic management at KeSPA that they put up such a fight without really bothering to find out how much licensing would cost. Seeing as KeSPA was led mainly by SKT and KT at the time, it wouldn't surprise me that it was motivated by the same kind of short-sighted greed that resulted in Youtube being slow in Korea. That said, I don't know about the details of the negotiations so that last part is really just my own speculation.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did
what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard
the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100%
savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
Well Dan, let's put it in perspective shall we? You know how those guys view the vets, so it has a domino effect on those players they bring in. "Hey, these guys are doing it why not you?" *Shows off watches, shoes, sunglasses and all that jazz*
Furthermore, do you really want to be that guy who rats everyone else out not knowing what kind of ramifications and consequences there would be? It's putting them in a very difficult position and IPXZerg really has done nothing to show us that he's truly learned his lesson. Even then, KeSPA has every right to bar him from any of their gaming competitions. The problem here is it's China and they have no jurisdiction over the matter in this case. I'm all for MLB not allowing Pete Rose to go near the organization and contrary to your belief which has been argued many times before, it most certainly did speed things up. It's only one variable though which has been said many times just like the match-rigging in WC3 really hit the Korean scene hard as well.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
I 100% agree, and woe to any tournament who'd be willing to have their integrity questioned by allowing a match-fixer to play. Besides, what sponsor wants their name associated with that?
That being said, he's banned from kespa, but if there's any organization that's willing to take him on, don't they have that right?
I personally wouldn't do it if I was an organizer, but if someone wants to risk that, that isn't involved with kespa, can't they do that?
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: if u wanna use that logic then the player exploitation by kespa on contracts/salaries was 1000000x worse than anything savior ever did
You can say that paying low-level players not much money was a stupid decision given that it makes the incentives for bad behavior more appealing, but it does not make sense to call it immoral in the way that Savior's actions were. The unpopular low-level players were being paid at a rate commensurate with the revenue they were generating---which was essentially nil. You can accuse KeSPA of stupidity for that, but not of being exploitative.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: fake apologies only serve to appease the minds of grovelling simpletons, kudos to savior for atleast not being disingenuous in that regard
I agree that fake apology is worse than no apology. Are our standards so low that we are offering kudos for that level of behavior? Let's not forget that genuine apology is better than no apology. Even better would be showing through his actions that he is sorry. Suing people for making negative comments about his match-fixing and playing BW during a period when he was supposed to be in jail for match-fixing is even worse than no apology. That is a defiant middle-finger to the BW community.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: the scandal was a speed bump but had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of SC:BW, blizzard and kespa are the culprits there 100%
Absolutely nothing? I agree that Blizzard and KeSPA had a massive hand in all this, but extreme statements like this are what offend people. Many e-Sports reporters and insiders have spoken about the impact that the match-fixing had. You can say that Blizzard and KeSPA were more responsible, but to say that match-fixing had absolutely nothing to do with the downfall of BW is such an extreme thing to say.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: savior never did anything to actively gain an advantage for himself in competition either, it's not like he was a maphacker. wat a nice guy for letting people win~~~
I think that you are kidding, but I am not sure. Maybe we could draw this equivalence if he was match-fixing on his own, but he was a freakin' match-fixing broker. The scale of the crimes are very different.
On December 03 2013 12:19 Rekrul wrote: i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened:
a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money
not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people
who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors)
to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed.
he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
I don't disagree with much there.
On December 03 2013 12:19 Rekrul wrote: peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did
at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
This last part is baffling. Savior's skill is no longer at an elite level, at least compared to the current crop of ex-pros. So it is not the skill level that is helpful because superior alternatives are available. Savior's infamy is perhaps helpful in the short term, but his involvement can only hurt BW in the long run. Short-run profit seeking (player conditions, match-fixing, copyright battle) is what created the conditions for the downfall of BW in the first place. There is no catch-22 here.
The argument about "he killed BW" is complete red herring. There were many gunmen who fired bullets at BW. What is more important now is that Savior is banned from all e-Sport events, not as punishment to Savior (although I admit I take some comfort in that) but as a deterrent to future match-fixers and to preserve the entire public's trust in the competitive integrity of BW events. It is quite strange that many people seem to undervalue the deterrence and trust aspects of all this.
I would normally chalk this off to different strokes for different folks, but every other sport in the world takes this super seriously. That comes from experience. We keep getting these comments about e-sports is not the same as other sports, but don't we want e-sports to be as respectable and popular as other sports? Maybe some people have given up and just want to be cynical about it. I don't know. At the moment, I still want to dream the pipe dream that is the revival of BW, so I care about the integrity of BW events not being tainted by a convicted match-fixer's presence. You seem to be adopting very consequentialist ethical standards, so for you, the difference in our positions really comes down to you not believing that Savior's presence is a long-term negative to the credibility of BW events. If you don't think that this is something important now, I doubt that anything I say will change your mind. Just know that every other organized competitive activity in the world takes this issue a lot more seriously than you (and several others in this thread) do. Maybe you are just way ahead of your time. Maybe not.
On December 03 2013 11:25 ExO_ wrote: Man this is rough for me. I remember when it first happened, and watching a clip of Nal_Ra talking to some people about it. And how disgusted he was. At the time I couldn't help but agree with him. This was a BIG deal, and it had to be dealt with in a way that said "never again."
As I've grown and matured since then, I try to live understanding that people make mistakes, and that everybody needs forgiveness. And I remember watching (mostly Klazart) casts of sAviOr and how hyped he'd get about it. His play really was something special.
I want somebody like that back. I do. But I can't. It's like a contradiction that I can't resolve. I can say for sure he should be allowed to play the game. For instance, just because somebody is banned from say MLB doesn't mean he can't go play baseball in a local league. But where do you draw the line? Obviously he can't play in KeSPA again. But is this too professional of a league for him to play in? I don't know...But either way I'll live with it.
Can't you just watch VODs of Savior's glory days? Back when he was truly a Maestro instead of someone who had to shave his eyebrows because he was pwned in matches by the likes of Terror/Britney? You can love the player that Savior once was while still recognizing that his present self is toxic to the BW community. Also, SCNTV was a large event with prize pools comparable to WCS. It wasn't some PC Bang League. In terms of rewards, it was a top tier event.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
First of all I'm not saying its less wrong because he's exploiting degenerates and bookies, but the fact that it is makes it not 'hurting e-sports' in this case. If you wanna argue its wrong then well just about everything in the world is wrong because everyone exploits everyone. Just as there are lots of bad things happening in the world far worse than Savior's match-fixing but people choose to care about this and ignore other things. The fact that he fucked unrelated people instead of SC:BW people over monetarily makes a difference somewhat IMO.
And yes bookies can lose when their betters are betting huge and they don't have enough volume of small bets to even the scales and let vig win. Over ambitious bookies often go broke because of this. Also why sharps will quickly get their action cut off by bookies. Obviously not every bookie in korea was aware of the games that were about to be thrown...if every bookie was aware then it wouldn't work. It is incredibly common for bookies to need one side to win on any particular week. Sportsbetting is illegal in korea and these underground bookies don't have the luxury of huge player bases. All it takes is 1 bookie bribing savior and a lot of beards (people betting on savior/main bookie's behalf against other bookies) to crush not only his players but other bookies for max profit. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of fuckery that went on between bookies/beards/legit bettors depending on who was and wasn't in the know before the scandal went public.
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
I agree with all the guys saying he should not play in tournament anymore. But we can't stop other organizer from inviting him. I read a comment that the sponsor personally requested him to participate. This is the what im thinking: I want to organize a tournament and i need sponsor. I ask UN to sponsor me but they will only sponsor me is that guy(Savior) will play in the tournament. I said to them that he is ban but the sponsor insist that he should play or they will not sponsor. So what should i do? i invite him to play just or get another sponsor(which is none) or cancel the tournament?. So i decide to invite him so that i can get the tournament going. Which is from what i heard is a success. The only problem is that did the organizer get a license from Blizzard to hold the tournament? And Kespa has no right to stop the tournament because the tournament is not held in korea/or within its organization. Btw i think we have to organization in SC2? Only Blizzard can stop the tournament but not Kespa.
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
First of all I'm not saying its less wrong because he's exploiting degenerates and bookies, but the fact that it is makes it not 'hurting e-sports' in this case. If you wanna argue its wrong then well just about everything in the world is wrong because everyone exploits everyone. Just as there are lots of bad things happening in the world far worse than Savior's match-fixing but people choose to care about this and ignore other things. The fact that he fucked unrelated people instead of SC:BW people over monetarily makes a difference somewhat IMO.
And yes bookies can lose when their betters are betting huge and they don't have enough volume of small bets to even the scales and let vig win. Over ambitious bookies often go broke because of this. Obviously not every bookie in korea was aware of the games that were about to be thrown...if every bookie was aware then it wouldn't work obviously. It is incredibly common for bookies to need one side to win on any particular week. Sportsbetting is illegal in korea and these underground bookies don't have the luxury of huge player bases. All it takes is 1 bookie bribing savior and a lot of beards (people betting on savior/main bookie's behalf against other bookies) to crush not only his players but other bookies for max profit. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of fuckery that went on between bookies/beards/legit bettors depending on who was and wasn't in the know before the scandal went public.
If you're saying that some bookies behave stupidly and can't be bothered with risk diversification, then you got me. Small-time illegal book don't have to be run by the smartest people. But if you are saying that your point was to say that Savior wasn't hurting e-sports with his match-fixing because the direct-level harm he inflicted was on the wallets of bookies and gamblers, then me thinks you have had one two many vodka shots. That's too much of a disagreement to even bother arguing. If you wish, you can reciprocate by attributing an equivalent amount inebriation to me.
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote: Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion, but from my point of view what rly happened:
a man at the peak of his career, with a pretty much guaranteed long-standing position in his industry (which would have earned him a lot of money) took a very short sighted greedy gamble to make some money
not only that, but he did it in the dumbest and riskiest way possible by involving lots of other people
who knows how much $ he made, it could be over a million, it could be less (probably less despite rumors)
to think that he's the most terrible evil mastermind ever because of this is pretty silly, just a dumb kid totally blinded by short-term greed.
he definitely fucked over the industry somewhat, but the match-fixing wound is an inevitability of every sport and infact the end result could almost be argued as strengthening things because his haphazard method of getting other kids involved is what ultimately got him caught, atleast everyone became hyper-aware of these possibilities in e-sports after that
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
peoples' hatred for savior is a testament to their love of broodwar, and its natural to want to blame something or someone when something u love dissapears, but SC:BW dying was inevitable for many reasons (much as SC2 will die when SC3 or w/e comes out...) and none of those reasons involve what savior did
at the end of the day saviors infamy and skill will be very helpful to any tournament...which will help re-grow SC:BW...to be mad at savior because "he killed BW" then not want him to participate in existing BW leagues at the same time is kinda a catch22 LOL
I thought that the match fixing scandal was THE reason that bw died out; companies lost faith in the credibility of the league and pulled out their sponsorships. Proleague was 12 teams in 2008-2009 before the scandal and then shrunk by 4 teams. Do you blame Blizz just because of sc2 coming out ?
I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
I never got the feeling that the match fixing thing was what killed the pro bw scene but it did hurt. And hearing that savior is playing bw and seeing people defend his participation kills any interest I would've had in the scene.
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
pay a $1000000000000 license fee.
I somehow doubt that they go that high since Blizzard asked GomTV for $1 when GomTV first approached Blizzard about licensing. In turn, Gom's initial sub-licensing offer to KeSPA was around $100K/year. For perspective: That's about half the money that SKT1 paid MBC for the rights to Bisu.
inb4 whats really going to happen is some chinese mastermind is setting it up to gain the public's trust in savior again (atleast in china), have him win a few tournaments and then set everyone up for the epic match-fixing again 2.0 china edition
On December 03 2013 14:42 Rekrul wrote: inb4 whats really going to happen is some chinese mastermind is setting it up to gain the public's trust in savior again (atleast in china), have him win a few tournaments and then set everyone up for the epic match-fixing again 2.0 china edition
It's china. Anything is possible. If anything, I'd put my money on it to happen.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
So you're saying Savior exploited exploiters as an exploiter himself? Who cares? He is still as pathetic.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
pay a $1000000000000 license fee.
I somehow doubt that they go that high since Blizzard asked GomTV for $1 when GomTV first approached Blizzard about licensing. In turn, Gom's initial sub-licensing offer to KeSPA was around $100K/year. For perspective: That's about half the money that SKT1 paid MBC for the rights to Bisu.
The point is that the best case scenario is that irrelevant entities get to decide who plays in tournaments. It's possible that nothing really bad happens, but if we are all rooting for "not super harmful" then it's a bad thing.
On December 03 2013 14:42 Rekrul wrote: inb4 whats really going to happen is some chinese mastermind is setting it up to gain the public's trust in savior again (atleast in china), have him win a few tournaments and then set everyone up for the epic match-fixing again 2.0 china edition
At least that would result in one or two really cool Korean movies based on the story... Old Boy Returns: The Continental Broker
shh, if you tell rekrul how gambling works and that its not morally wrong he might try it for himself one day. We wouldn't want him to become one of those poor saps who try to make a living off of gambling!
Isn't he a pro poker player...oh I get it. That said, sportsbooks work somewhat differently than poker.
On topic: I understand why people want savior banned, and i understand why people want him to play. But I think the far more relevant/disturbing thing here is that kespa/blizzard are potentially mucking around here. And there is no way anything good would come of that.
In general I agree that KeSPA/Blizzard aren't that trustworthy, but what horrible thing could they do other than ask SCNTV to pay a $1 licensing fee and promise to keep banned players out of future events? That level of activity seems fine to me.
pay a $1000000000000 license fee.
I somehow doubt that they go that high since Blizzard asked GomTV for $1 when GomTV first approached Blizzard about licensing. In turn, Gom's initial sub-licensing offer to KeSPA was around $100K/year. For perspective: That's about half the money that SKT1 paid MBC for the rights to Bisu.
The point is that the best case scenario is that irrelevant entities get to decide who plays in tournaments. It's possible that nothing really bad happens, but if we are all rooting for "not super harmful" then it's a bad thing.
I guess it would be a bad thing if you're the kind of person who wants to watch a past-his-prime Savior to play second/third-tier competition while reminding everyone that a convicted and unrepentant match-fixer is winning big prizes in China...but otherwise... Blizzard hasn't been known to meddle in who gets to play in tournaments others sponsor. Banning match-fixers is more of a minimum decorum requirement than meddling. It won't be just one way either. Whenever Chinese governing bodies ban match-fixers, they will have channels to make sure their bans are respected in Korea and by Blizzard.
All i see here is peope getting angry over an issue that, yes is a serious concern, but talking about it in this way is highly unproductive.
If you really want to do something for Broodwar, think of something that YOU can do. Everyone has a skill or talent in some place, and everyone can contribuite in some way to the Broodwar. Easy to say fuck this fuck that. You have people streaming, people organizing threads and tournaments, and its easy to take this for granted. People like Gecko, Jaevlaterran, Sayle, 2pac, hackebeast, Redaxis, Lmaster, Xkcd, Snipealot, Nina, Draw, Largo, *and the list could go on and on). These people took are taking time and energy and trasforming it into something real, something that produces results. When i first walked in to this community, i was enjoying it so much, that i felt the need to give something back. And i did in my own way, i contribuited how i felt it worked for me.
Wake up and smell the coffea. It will make your life more satisfying to archieve something, than spend time and energy being hurt and angry. And i quote Largo' s post from i think a year back:
Hey guys, we're living in a simple world. If you want BW to be alive, to be young and hot, you should do something, not just drink beer while watching Sayle's stream. History shows that we got a great community. We can do everything we need and we want. What does BW need now? What can YOU do?
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
On December 02 2013 19:20 Glioburd wrote: Why sAviOr couldn't play a foreign non-kespa league ?
this
I though Savior was banned on KeSPA events not Brood:War in general . And why the hell KeSPA even care if they decided to not promote bw in the first place.
I have the best awnser : they want to make sure nobody play/watch Broodwar so every1 watch their LoL proleague.
On December 02 2013 19:20 Glioburd wrote: Why sAviOr couldn't play a foreign non-kespa league ?
this
I though Savior was banned on KeSPA events not Brood:War in general . And why the hell KeSPA even care if they decided to not promote bw in the first place.
I have the best awnser : they want to make sure nobody play/watch Broodwar so every1 watch their SC2 proleague.
FTFY
This was their initial intention, but then again, with LoL having a stranglehold on the market, it's still the same thing. And is this the first time in quite a while that a Romanian is bluntly correct?!
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote: Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote: Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
kespa on the other hand, a round table of big company shills disguised as representatives of the teams took players' prize money etc. on certain teams
wait kespa took the prizemoney of players?0_o
unless I'm mistaken, he means the teams got the prize money so you won but the team won? lol. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please lol.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Never thought I'd say this about a Rekrul post, but ...
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
On December 03 2013 10:52 Clefairy wrote: Why are people so sympathetic to Savior? He was barely punished and has been largely unrepentant, yet he's still making bank from the game he loves and helped destroy. He's one of the few making money doing what he loves while everyone else was forced into retirement or another game. He's one of the lucky ones!
I can't understand the sympathy to savior as well.. he actively ruined the careers of multiple progamers, played a significant role in accelerating the downfall of BW and -- to the best of my knowledge -- still hasn't apologised for his actions. This isn't someone who 'made a mistake', this is someone who actively sought to exploit the scene for his own personal advantage and would have continued to do so without remorse except he got caught.
If people want to watch his personal stream, as much as I don't like it, that is their choice. If people want to donate to him, again, that is their choice. But letting him compete in a tournament again? That's unacceptable. He forfeited his right to compete when he gave up the integrity of competing in order to match fix.
On June 24 2012 14:46 Clefairy wrote:
sAviOr:BW is dead. That's how the world is. How much longer can we play 2D games
That he says "That's how the world is" makes it sound strongly like something he is bitter about, not something he supports.
I've always wanted to know what was the reason for his outburst. Considering that he was once a part of KeSPA before the matchfixing scandal, he obviously knew how to handle himself publicly and such so why is it that on that date, he went out and said that BW is dead. That's how the world is. How much longer can we play 2D games? Is that his opinion or is he frustrated about something? Probably hard to tell but seen this argument come up a lot and it's made me curious.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote: If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
Then stop arguing.
What harms the scene is people who are hell-bent on vilification of a single guy and use him as a scapegoat for everything that went wrong with the Brood War scene, no matter how unreasonable or irrational that sentiment is to begin with.
Sponsors don't give a shit about Savior or what he's done, they only give a shit about popular opinion - as any company would, anywhere in the world. If people stopped continuously escalating an incident from half a decade ago and bringing it into focus every time the guy shows up anywhere, there would be nothing to divide the community or scare away potential sponsors.
Anyone saying they'll not watch BW because sAviOr is still in the scene is just someone that wasn't going to watch BW in the first place. I don't know, a true BW fan will watch some matches and tournaments no matter what. If he really hates sAviOr and chooses not to watch tournaments he appears in, it leaves almost every tournaments for the last 2 years.
He sure has fucked up somewhere in his life, but he makes a good scapegoat for everything happening to BW.
On December 03 2013 19:03 Stratos wrote: If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
Then stop arguing.
What harms the scene is people who are hell-bent on vilification of a single guy and use him as a scapegoat for everything that went wrong with the Brood War scene, no matter how unreasonable or irrational that sentiment is to begin with.
Sponsors don't give a shit about Savior or what he's done, they only give a shit about popular opinion - as any company would, anywhere in the world. If people stopped continuously escalating an incident from half a decade ago and bringing it into focus every time the guy shows up anywhere, there would be nothing to divide the community or scare away potential sponsors.
The role of our scene in all this is pretty irrelevant. Korea's perception of savior is relevant, and it is clear that it is not changing, certainly not after this whole affair. Yeah sponsors give a shit about popular opinion, which is that afreeca streaming is for criminals. Guess why that is.
I'm not personally hating on the guy but it pains me to see people completely ignore the fact that Korean BW scene still exists and with it come circumstances to consider, that should not be disregarded as lightly as you just did. IMO.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
So the owners of the newly shitty petting zoo are suing a national park for letting the lion go free within its borders and are demanding an execution?
On December 03 2013 11:58 Rekrul wrote: what savior did was wrong, but you can't blame him for the choices other match fixers made, also all the profit he earned was off degenerate sports betters and bookies
First of all, bookies never lose. They put a "vig" on the odds for both sides so that they never lose money. Also, the line between degenerate bettors and skilled gamblers is how much they win. You might say that some people who would have been skilled gamblers/odds-makers were turned into degenerate gamblers by Savior altering the odds without their knowledge. You seem to be suggesting that Savior's sins are somehow lightened because he made money off of bad people, but he didn't make money off of bookies, who are usually the bad people in the gambling world. Their is nothing morally wrong with gambling itself.
I'm sure this gambling 101 was enlightening for Rekrul.
On December 03 2013 08:47 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I can only side with attempting to stop SAviOr, Luxury and any others like that from participating in official leagues, including outside of Korea. They were intended to be banned from "eSports" on the whole, right? At least stopping them from being involved in anything related to StarCraft, let alone with HUGE PRIZEPOOLS is very much justified.
The passive voice doesn't make great sense here. They were intended to be banned from eSports, maybe, by who? A couple of organizations (KeSPA and then GOM). These few organizations are not the dear leaders of eSports. Maybe they would like to see him banned from any tournaments ever, but it's not their job and they have no say in it.
I mean, KeSPA could have intended to cremate savior and launch his ashes to the moon, that doesn't mean they can whine to Blizzard that NASA won't give them a free missile to use for savior. It's not KeSPA's business.
On December 03 2013 02:17 ReachTheSky wrote: savior fucked up and did his time, it's time to let go of the past.
1) The guy never did any "time". As soon as he was kicked out he started afreeca streaming and continued making money. Moreover, BW was ended shortly after he was banned, so it's not like he has been banned from KeSPA events for that long. Moreover, most sports bans for violations are lengthy: 2-4+ years is not at all uncommon.
Afreeca is not a tournament and it is not run by KeSPA.
KeSPA BW continued for roughly 2 years after savior was banned (which is about the same length of time as his probation). And anyways, he was banned for life, so he really has been banned from GOM and KeSPA for that long. He can't play any game at all for either of these organizations, FOREVER.
2) Much more importantly, the guy has no fucking remorse at all. He has literally not even apologized for matchfixing. He is sorry...that he got caught. I really don't think he has any issues with what he actually did. In addition to not apologizing he has taken actions that are directly harmful to BW (streaming on Afreeca, which has directly decreased the credibility of other Afreeca streams; if this doesn't make sense, see iloveoov comments) as well as bashed BW saying something like "only idiots play 2D games in this day and age".
Firstly, even if this wasn't irrelevant, it's mind-reading, and I don't believe you can do it. You do not know what's in savior's brain, remorse or otherwise. Savior apologized, of course you might not believe it or whatever, but you could say that no matter what savior says. That's why he apologized once and doesn't talk about it anymore. He's not going to win people over who are only looking for confirmation bias like "Aha, he apologized but I can tell it wasn't sincere so I hate him even more!"
And if you have a problem with something iloveoov said, take it up with iloveoov, I doubt savior was pointing a gun at his head.
I'm for second chances (except for doping in athletics...but that is for another day). However, I have NO reason to believe Savior has changed whatsoever. Let him back in, and chances are he will go right back to matchfixing if the opportunity presented itself. If Savior had prostrated himself with apology, left BW alone for a while and generally been remorseful and was just now asking to return...I could see myself considering it.
Please demonstrate how you know what the chances are. What happened to savior's old contacts? What would make him think he wouldn't get caught this time? What do you think the punishment would be the second time he went to trial for matchfixing? Why would he risk that?
Don't forget that saviors reputation is tarnished, and his return will make it MUCH more difficult to attract sponsors and establish a good reputation for BW. Even if you blindy love savior, I think you have to ask yourself is it worth it to bring this guy back, knowing that just his presence is likely to prevent, or even reverse, the progress that has been made in the last year?
Earlier you said he never did any time, now you are talking about his return, pick one.
People have been saying for a decade that something or other will fuck up the scene. Savior has been a presence in the community since his ban and we still seem to have a BW scene. So it's hard for me to take this as anything besides crying wolf.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
This constant misdirection is super annoying. It's not about the blame game for fuck's sake. It's about whether a convicted match-fixer's presence is harmful to the credibility of the game. Why do Savior's defenders ignore the fucking point no matter how many times it is reiterated? They're all too clever by a half. Let's not pretend that bringing back Leo doesn't make the zoo very trustworthy when we drop the stupid animal metaphor and recognize the Leo is a human being that acts purposefully. It almost makes me feel that they're just trolling and enjoying the reaction. *ALMOST*. I give up. I put my hands up. Crazies win. The rational people are too exasperated.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo.
It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context.
That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
This constant misdirection is super annoying. It's not about the blame game for fuck's sake. It's about whether a convicted match-fixer's presence is harmful to the credibility of the game. Why do Savior's defenders ignore the fucking point no matter how many times it is reiterated? They're all too clever by a half. Let's not pretend that bringing back Leo doesn't make the zoo very trustworthy when we drop the stupid animal metaphor and recognize the Leo is a human being that acts purposefully. It almost makes me feel that they're just trolling and enjoying the reaction. *ALMOST*. I give up. I put my hands up. Crazies win. The rational people are too exasperated.
The topic is 'whether Blizzard or Kespa have the right to interfere in the Chinese BW scene'. The answer is no.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
This constant misdirection is super annoying. It's not about the blame game for fuck's sake. It's about whether a convicted match-fixer's presence is harmful to the credibility of the game. Why do Savior's defenders ignore the fucking point no matter how many times it is reiterated? They're all too clever by a half. Let's not pretend that bringing back Leo doesn't make the zoo very trustworthy when we drop the stupid animal metaphor and recognize the Leo is a human being that acts purposefully. It almost makes me feel that they're just trolling and enjoying the reaction. *ALMOST*. I give up. I put my hands up. Crazies win. The rational people are too exasperated.
The topic is 'whether Blizzard or Kespa have the right to interfere in the Chinese BW scene'. The answer is no.
in general blizzard owns exclusive rights to all their ip.if blizzard doesnt want you to use one of their games in a tournamnet they can forbid it immediately.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo.
It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context.
That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
Well but before the incident, a big part of the public interest in the zoo and consequently a large amount of ticket sales and other profit was because of Leo, because he was by FAR the biggest attraction in the zoo. Maybe if it wasnt for Leo, the zoo would have had to cut back even earlier...
As you can see this is all pure speculation. Savior did matchfixing which was obviously bad. Anything else is just wild speculation with a small grain of truth. Did Savior hurt BW? yes. Is he the reason BW got shut down? No. Did Savior help BW? Yes. Is he the only reason BW had huge amounts of following in his era? No. Savior did some good and some bad for BW this is the only thing that is undisputable and anybody who neglects one side of the coin is looking at it from a highly emotional standpoint.
actually kespa asked china-blizzard to stop this before the tournament starts. (there are few KeSPA officers in China during the WCG)
Im not sure if blizzard ever contacted SCNTV, but they never stopped the tournament because they didnt knew the tournament gonna be this big.
also, it seems after the finals few 2v2 players (but who??) went to night club, bought some Chinese whores and got caught, because they didnt have money to pay.
ps. as far as i heard, savior is very mature and he definitely has ability to manipulate other ppl.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
He has nothing to offer to Korean BW scene.
or rather, much of the korean scene doesn't want what he could possibly offer.
On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote: [quote] This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Not many benefits? He is a superstar. The attention he can bring is only rivaled by legends like boxer, nada and so on. Actually Id argue there is no other player in the current bw scene that even has half the popularity. Savior is one of the few legends of the game, like it or not. Im willing to bet the number of viewers he would attract for whatever reasons (haters and fanboys alike) would hugely outweigh the number of viewers lost because they dont watch a tourney with him in it out of principle. Of course, this is all speculation, but thinking he has nothing to offer for the current BW scene is quite absurd imo.
He has nothing to offer to Korean BW scene.
or rather, much of the korean scene doesn't want what he could possibly offer.
Correct, 30:1 Koreans don't want to see his skills melt in SoSPA competition.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo.
It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context.
That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
Match-fixing is a biological imperative though if you think about it....
There's a reason why it's happened in every sport in the history of humanity. It also goes on to degrees greater than what most people think... because we only hear about those dumb enough to get caught. Almost all 'crime' committed in the world is driven by an evolutionary imperative to 'get the money' or 'get it in.' People don't just do things because one day they make a conscious decision to be a 'bad person.' There's almost always a reason that 'makes sense' (except serial killers like Luxury lolz).
Was Saviors banishment from the industry, small fines, and reputation destruction enough punishment for his actions? I have no clue nor do I care as I'd personally love to see Savior compete and be 'the bad guy' in SC:BW. But one thing is for sure is that the e-sports mafia Kespa shouldn't be the one at the top of the bench with a gavel making the moral decisions.
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
I'm not people then.
Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them.
People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport.
On December 03 2013 21:30 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On December 03 2013 15:40 Rekrul wrote:
On December 03 2013 15:17 lemmata wrote:
On December 03 2013 15:12 Rekrul wrote:
On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote:
On December 03 2013 14:37 Rekrul wrote: I didn't say he wasn't hurting E-sports because of that, but the fact that he's siphoning money out of bookies who are millionaire exploiters themselves instead of from the SC:BW scene is a fact that the vast majority of people fail to realize.
This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Except that Leo's little incident where he acquainted a number of people with his teeth was a part of what damaged the "full fledged zoo's" public reputation, which led to falling ticket sales, and eventually, at least indirectly, to the decision to 'transition' to the shitty petting zoo.
It seems not irrational, in that circumstance, to hold Leo for being, at least partially, responsible for only getting a miniature donkey. And may be insensitive to those people who were mauled, and to the other animals in the zoo that were put down as a result of the closure to continue displaying Leo at other, smaller zoos. So the request to other zoos to not display Leo (or maybe put him down) doesn't seem so unreasonable in that context.
That and also, lions maul people if improperly contained. Lions as any predators are driven by biological and evolutionary imperative, mauling other animals is kinda their thing. Savior, on the other hand, is just a scumbag. Match fixing isn't an irrepressible response or biological imperative, it's just a horrible thing to choose to do, so the analogy kinda falls apart.
Match-fixing is a biological imperative though if you think about it....
There's a reason why it's happened in every sport in the history of humanity. It also goes on to degrees greater than what most people think... because we only hear about those dumb enough to get caught. Almost all 'crime' committed in the world is driven by an evolutionary imperative to 'get the money' or 'get it in.' People don't just do things because one day they make a conscious decision to be a 'bad person.' There's almost always a reason that makes sense (except serial killers like Luxury lolz).
Was Saviors banishment from the industry, small fines, and reputation destruction enough punishment for his actions? I have no clue nor do I care as I'd personally love to see Savior compete and be 'the bad guy' in SC:BW. But one thing is for sure is that the e-sports mafia Kespa shouldn't be the one at the top of the bench with a gavel making the moral decisions.
Greed is a biological imperative, but so is everything else despicable about humanity, unless you suppose we should just discard all attempts at civility or attempts at progressing beyond operating by evolutionary instinct. Just because something is naturally occurring doesn't mean we shouldn't denounce it in the face of mutual human interests. All corporate entities by their definition and historically relevant social interest circles operate to maximize their own collectivist interest, Kespa is no less or more a mafia than any other esports organization.
On December 03 2013 14:49 lemmata wrote: [quote] This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that Savior hurt Brood War because he took money from bad guys. If we isolate the factual aspect of Savior taking money from bad guys, of course that by itself doesn't hurt BW. Why are you arguing against a contrived position that no one is taking? It's what he did in order to take that money from those bad guys that hurt e-sports. People are saying that he hurt BW putting the integrity of competition into question and recruiting a bunch of pro gamers into his conspiracy. How did we get here again?
because you said bookie's don't lose lol
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
I'm not people then.
Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them.
People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport.
I was under the impression that eminent individuals actually help draw attention to a sport or competition because exceptionalism bridges gaps between populations and groups. With out dominating teams or individuals there is almost no draw for the outsider who isn't familiar to the scene to become interested or invested in a sport, and in most cases that's the demographic you are most interest in drawing to your competition, not just appealing to the already loyal fan base.
I agree and thats my point in this thread. People want to completely vilify and denounce Savior while mostly ignoring everything else.
And what's really funny to me is if Savior had come out with some bullshit apology and shown some fake remorse a lot of people's attitudes on these forums or Korean forums would be totally different.
On December 03 2013 20:38 Lysteria wrote: Anyone saying they'll not watch BW because sAviOr is still in the scene is just someone that wasn't going to watch BW in the first place. I don't know, a true BW fan will watch some matches and tournaments no matter what. If he really hates sAviOr and chooses not to watch tournaments he appears in, it leaves almost every tournaments for the last 2 years.
He sure has fucked up somewhere in his life, but he makes a good scapegoat for everything happening to BW.
You're wrong. I would love to watch BW again. I think it's a more fun game to watch than SC2. But the thing is, the community around it is kind of important too. I never would've stopped watching bw if the OSL and Proleague would've stayed with bw. But I did because the bw scene felt pretty dead for a while. There has been something of a resurgence and I am happy about that but as long as savior is competing the scene is tainted.
And I amended my statement. And bookies losing or not losing has nothing to do with whether Savior hurt e-sports with his match-fixing. Two can LOL.
Owners of a full fledged zoo decided to replace it with a shitty petting zoo. Right before the demolition and remodeling a lion named Leo broke out of it's cage and mauled a bunch of people.
Now everyone who misses the real animals blames Leo for the fact that the best they are going to get is a miniature donkey.
#freeLeo
Analogy may be good or not but you (and most of other savior's defendants) like to completely overlook the fact that regardless of whether he deserves another shot or not, he is not much of a benefit to the overall BW scene.
It looks like he's somewhat beneficial to the Chinese scene, but his presence divides our community, it divides the Chinese and Korean BW communities (Sonic requesting them to not allow Savior in, them telling him to fuck off, him telling them he won't allow Chinese players in SoSPA). It makes the afreeca scene look bad as well as the players who are under weird circumstances almost forced to participate in tourneys together with Savior (Movie turning down the invitation, then accepting when Savior didn't qualify, but then Savior gets invited anyway). All this is going on just when SoSPA is trying to acquire new sponsors for ex-SPL teams and new SSL.
I can understand people wanting him to get another chance. But there's more to consider. Does he deserve another chance at the expense of what remains of the scene he in one way or another harmed? Who do you support in this, Savior or Sonic? Mind you, we know Sonic did ask his viewers if they'd allow Savior in SoSPA before so it's not like he did what he did in some kind of outburst of butthurt or whatever. China cooperating with SoSPA would be the best thing ever to happen to SoSPA but Savior's participation made this much less real due to the atmosphere in Korea regarding savior.
If we could finally stop discussing whether savior deserves this or that, be rational and look at the bigger picture and judge whether he's beneficial to the scene or not NOW, there would be much less arguing. If someone wants to question whatever I stated above it would be nice to see someone finally do it instead of disappearing from the discussion. The problem is most Savior's defendants don't follow the scene too thoroughly so all they have to share are their moral stands on whatever savior deserves. That's a very short-sited approach to the issue since it doesn't reflect that Savior's return isn't just about him.
In my opinion, a scene that cannot survive an independent tournament organizer appearing out of nowhere, organizing a tournament, and inviting people on his own accord has no right of existing in the first place. Yes, it probably wasn't a good move for the overall picture, but problems like this just arise naturally from time to time, and if the scene is forced onto its knees by something trivial in nature like that, then it has no future to begin with.
Who said the scene wouldn't survive some china tourney? All I'm saying is he doesn't brings many benefits while he brings some harm. So no point in supporting him.
Except that people don't base their support on whether it is good for the overall scene. There are also a lot of other points flowing into it.
I'm not people then.
Take any competitive sport, look for a team/individual that is totally dominating the competition around it/him/her. It would be better for the scene as a whole if they would stop dominating the competition, since that makes the games boring which might lead to people watching less games, yet there are always a lot of fans supporting them.
People cheering for teams / players regardless of the overall scene is a fact something that is omnipresent in any sport.
I was under the impression that eminent individuals actually help draw attention to a sport or competition because exceptionalism bridges gaps between populations and groups. With out dominating teams or individuals there is almost no draw for the outsider who isn't familiar to the scene to become interested or invested in a sport, and in most cases that's the demographic you are most interest in drawing to your competition, not just appealing to the already loyal fan base.
Even without dominating teams / individuals, people might be drawn to a sport if he/she is affiliated with enough people who are drawn to the sport. And whether a dominating team / individual is good for the sport or not depends largely on the system, I guess.
One example that comes into my mind is FC Bayern Munich in the German Bundesliga. Even their coach admitted that football becomes less and less interesting to watch, as they dominate more and more of their games.
On December 04 2013 00:51 Caihead wrote: Kespa is no less or more a mafia than any other esports organization.
I haven't been around as long as some people have, but KeSPA has only recently become "liked" in the Western scene. There are a lot of good reasons why KeSPA deserves to be hated, but it would take somebody who's been around longer than me to explain them well.
KeSPA has always ruled with a complete Iron Fist when they can.
On December 04 2013 01:53 11cc wrote: You're wrong. I would love to watch BW again. I think it's a more fun game to watch than SC2. But the thing is, the community around it is kind of important too. I never would've stopped watching bw if the OSL and Proleague would've stayed with bw. But I did because the bw scene felt pretty dead for a while. There has been something of a resurgence and I am happy about that but as long as savior is competing the scene is tainted.
It's just, I don't see how this is a problem. Let's see, you want to watch some korean BW, except if you really want to watch sAviOr on his afreeca stream, you'll not see him at all. SSL is free from him, snipealot streams too. TLS? Same deal, no one will have a glimpse at sAviOr either. It's not like you'll have to watch games with him even if you don't want to, because he's not in those tournaments.
The "scene" - and I do dislike this word - is an excuse more than anything else. If a player I liked decided to play Basketball/Football in another country because of some match fixing scandale, why would I care? I don't have to be in love with those sports in the 200~ countries in the world. That's the same for BW to me, korean BW is still korean BW, and the guy isn't there.
And I left BW around 2010 because too much K-pop, definitely a worse reason than yours. But went back for SSL and TLS!
I think its kinda weird how the chinese in the first place invited SaviOr to China to play. Maybe they were lacking viewership? And I thought Blizzard had nothing to do with BW tournaments ever since SCII came out?
On December 04 2013 00:54 Rekrul wrote: I agree and thats my point in this thread. People want to completely vilify and denounce Savior while mostly ignoring everything else.
And what's really funny to me is if Savior had come out with some bullshit apology and shown some fake remorse a lot of people's attitudes on these forums or Korean forums would be totally different.
I think that depends on how good of an actor savior is. If it was clear it wasn't a remorseful apology, and that he didn't regret his actions I'm not sure I agree. Now, if he knows how to bullshit well and appear sincere then yea you're unquestionably spot on.
On December 04 2013 00:54 Rekrul wrote: I agree and thats my point in this thread. People want to completely vilify and denounce Savior while mostly ignoring everything else.
And what's really funny to me is if Savior had come out with some bullshit apology and shown some fake remorse a lot of people's attitudes on these forums or Korean forums would be totally different.
I'll speak for myself because I really hate throwing around generalizations that aren't grounded. I respect IPXZerg as a player prior to the scandal; however, I never truly embraced his personality and attitude. This goes way back. Before he started winning everything and what followed next.
If he did come out to apologize I wouldn't accept it. Actions always speak louder than words and Rek you know how many hackers we've caught in the past and so forth. Not everyone changes their ways (remember how many guys we caught trying to pull off the same old tricks in such little time?). I have a really hard time believing people would be so accepting if he just gave some bullshit apology.
So society is even giving murderers a second chance and releases them after several years of imprisonment to incorporate them into itself again but you want to forbid someone to play a freaking game of chess because he cheated once at it? I am disgusted how people fall for all that corporate propaganda shit. Kespa doesn't own a game or tourney of starcraft and you know what, not even blizzard does anymore. If you build such a ramba-zamba about this game and start treating it as a tournament sport the sport stands on its own, no matter wheter the english invented it or some imkas. Kespa is in it's own right to exclude savior from it's own tournaments but they can't forbid him to play the game itself. Get a grip people, that guy has rights too.
€dit: Not to say how much money kespa mongered with saviors image and how much he helped the bw scene with his play and popularity, you people should be thankful and show some fucking respect. He was sentenced and sat it off. The issue is done. Stop being so entitled and judge others. Some of those comments and the attitudes of the people behind it sicken me.
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
"I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer."
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
Oh snap, haters must be mad.
I sure as heck forgot about that, but once again I refer back to what I said earlier about actions speak louder than words. Apologies like that are just lip service.
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
"I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer."
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
Oh snap, haters must be mad.
Not to take a side on this, but the "haters" could poke a lot of holes in that apology. That "apology" conveniently absolves Savior of all blame and wrongdoing. Detractors could very easily say the apology was Savior's attempt to cover his ass and support their position by citing such comedy gold as, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer. In the end, people that already like Savior will use the article to find excuses for Savior while people that already hate Savior will use the article as an opportunity to hate him even more.
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
Oh snap, haters must be mad.
Not to take a side on this, but the "haters" could poke a lot of holes in that apology. That "apology" conveniently absolves Savior of all blame and wrongdoing. Detractors could very easily say the apology was Savior's attempt to cover his ass and support their position by citing such comedy gold as I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer. In the end, people that already like Savior will use the article to find excuses for Savior while people that already hate Savior will use the article as an opportunity to hate him even more.
Not once did I mention about which side
All I care about is the continuation of scnTV's support for BW in future.
If you are going against them by wanting to shut them down, then you are against the growth of BW scene.
And if sAviOr associates with that organization then by proxy I have to defend him too. Its choosing the lesser of the two evils. Kespa butthurt guys that wants to stir up shit again to stunt BW's growth or allowing a tourny w/ one bad apple. I know which one to side in this one.
On December 04 2013 06:01 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On December 04 2013 05:29 Xiphos wrote:
On December 04 2013 05:13 oBlade wrote: He posted an apology in 2010 which I mentioned 2 pages ago, so it's not a question of if, a lot of people just don't want to hear it.
Oh snap, haters must be mad.
Not to take a side on this, but the "haters" could poke a lot of holes in that apology. That "apology" conveniently absolves Savior of all blame and wrongdoing. Detractors could very easily say the apology was Savior's attempt to cover his ass and support their position by citing such comedy gold as I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer. In the end, people that already like Savior will use the article to find excuses for Savior while people that already hate Savior will use the article as an opportunity to hate him even more.
Not once did I mention about which side
All I care about is the continuation of scnTV's support for BW in future.
If you are going against them by wanting to shut them down, then you are against the growth of BW scene.
And if sAviOr associates with that organization then by proxy I have to defend him too. Its choosing the lesser of the two evils. Kespa butthurt guys that wants to stir up shit again to stunt BW's growth or allowing a tourny w/ one bad apple. I know which one to side in this one.
Ah. I assumed that, since you were calling the Savior detractors "haters", a rather derogatory term, you were on the pro-Savior side of the debate. Then again, "hater" is very often used simply for the sake of convenience these days, rather than to imply blind hatred of something.
On December 04 2013 05:56 Rekrul wrote: awww weak, fuck savior i hope he is banned and burns forever
its not like the guy cheated to win. he cheated to make even more cash, just a little too clever for most people. hes not lance armstrong, whom people are still forgiving, because he's the one balled rider and had him a book ghostwritten in which he makes ppl feel sympathy for him. savior on the other side never said shit and doesnt seek for forgiveness, not following anything since blizzard released the sims in space 2 and sims in space 2: new interieur and haircuts, so feel free to correct me on this one. but if so, this just makes him a pretty legit guy, as legit as you can be after you've fucked up like he did. and he won, so he's still better than you rek.
oh and please, you want to support the only 2 companies who could've saved bw in trying to fuck shit up even more? you can say what you want, savior still cares about bw, if he just wanted money he'd play the easymode.
On December 04 2013 06:17 Stratos wrote: I think it's fair to say the number of people here who want SCNTV BW to shut down over savior is quite close to zero.
Who would want any BW organization to shut down nowadays if they are providing good tournaments. I would just rather see them invite Bisu / Jangbi / Sea etc.
Of all the organizations like kespa that have no right to declare who is allowed to compete in the broad scope of a game they abandoned their monopoly on, what on earth makes KeSPA think Blizzard does? I almost thought KeSPA was redeemed but I guess I'm back to being salty over them again.
Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
I would rather just let things be. Nothing we can do and nothing we should do. No drastic method should be taken and honestly, he may have apologized half-assedly but what could he have really said?
I'm also curious how you guys would act around him if you saw him at a tournament you were competing in. Personally, I would shrug and carry on knowing that he may have made a bad decision but at least he is trying to keep doing what he loves. Honestly, how many of you KNOW you wouldn't take a $100 bill if you found it on the ground?
On December 04 2013 09:28 3FFA wrote: I would rather just let things be. Nothing we can do and nothing we should do. No drastic method should be taken and honestly, he may have apologized half-assedly but what could he have really said?
Since you don't sound like a completely crazy person (possibly): + Show Spoiler +
It wasn't just a half-assed apology. He's vastly understating his involvement in the so-called apology by saying that all he did was tell his friends about opportunities. When he lies about the shit he did like that, then that goes beyond being a half-assed apology and crosses into the realm of a white-washing and cover-up attempt. Actually, did you even read it or was it TL;DR?
EDIT: Okay, may be you are crazy if you actually think that Savior's actions are comparable to picking up a $100 bill on the ground in any reasonable sense. I guess I should post slower.
You seem to assume that "in the end had a bad influence on them" means he doesn't admit doing all the other awful things he did. Perhaps he should have listed them all, because, you know, there isn't a public court case with all of them already known.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
I think I'd like you to link to his apology itself so that I can form my own opinion on his apology. I'd take your post into consideration but it's so biased I feel like I'm reading communist propaganda.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
I think I'd like you to link to his apology itself so that I can form my own opinion on his apology. I'd take your post into consideration but it's so biased I feel like I'm reading communist propaganda.
It was linked from TL earlier. It contains the Korean original as well. I guess facts are biased against Savior.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
On December 04 2013 10:14 SC2BF3Love wrote: i have a question being ignorant here, if savior did this a couple a years a go... what does it matter if he plays now? does he still matchfix games?
I don't think he can. Because he probably has a lot of people watching on him, and he isn't playing competitively anymore, except for some showmatches - and I think that one in China was kinda like the first since the scandal.
sAviOr won the special treatment missed by those who match fixed during TSL 2, he's hated for the centuries to come.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
I would like to revise my original position of neutrality. He was a liar and a criminal who took every scrap of his moral fiber and used it to wipe his ass after he was done pulling that apology out of it. Destroying this tournament because of this would be cutting off our nose to spite our face (actually probably more like cutting off our face to spite our nose, given the damage that would deal), but I'll still feel pretty sad for every person that still supports Savior and knows these facts.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
Who knows, maybe it wasn't fake and he was actually sorry for what he did. Of course that would be even more disappointing.
People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't use it as an indication of the BW section. People's emotions seem to get riled up whenever savior is mentioned. This is one of those situations where the BW section is split on just how far Savior should be punished or if he has already. As you can tell, there are those completely opposed to him even touching the game while others feel he was punished enough for what he did and that he should get a second chance. It makes for an interesting read lol. I wonder if this will still be the case 5 years or more down the line though.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't use it as an indication of the BW section. People's emotions seem to get riled up whenever savior is mentioned. This is one of those situations where the BW section is split on just how far Savior should be punished or if he has already. As you can tell, there are those completely opposed to him even touching the game while others feel he was punished enough for what he did and that he should get a second chance. It makes for an interesting read lol. I wonder if this will still be the case 5 years or more down the line though.
Probably. If I met a Flash fan irl who wanted to discuss the Nate MSL debacle, it would probably result in fisticuffs.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't use it as an indication of the BW section. People's emotions seem to get riled up whenever savior is mentioned. This is one of those situations where the BW section is split on just how far Savior should be punished or if he has already. As you can tell, there are those completely opposed to him even touching the game while others feel he was punished enough for what he did and that he should get a second chance. It makes for an interesting read lol. I wonder if this will still be the case 5 years or more down the line though.
Probably. If I met a Flash fan irl, it would probably result in fisticuffs.
On December 04 2013 18:18 Elroi wrote: Probably. If I met a Flash fan irl who wanted to discuss the Nate MSL debacle, it would probably result in fisticuffs.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't use it as an indication of the BW section. People's emotions seem to get riled up whenever savior is mentioned. This is one of those situations where the BW section is split on just how far Savior should be punished or if he has already. As you can tell, there are those completely opposed to him even touching the game while others feel he was punished enough for what he did and that he should get a second chance. It makes for an interesting read lol. I wonder if this will still be the case 5 years or more down the line though.
Probably. If I met a Flash fan irl who wanted to discuss the Nate MSL debacle, it would probably result in fisticuffs.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
where is the difference? Its both morally wrong behavior to maximize profit.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't use it as an indication of the BW section. People's emotions seem to get riled up whenever savior is mentioned. This is one of those situations where the BW section is split on just how far Savior should be punished or if he has already. As you can tell, there are those completely opposed to him even touching the game while others feel he was punished enough for what he did and that he should get a second chance. It makes for an interesting read lol. I wonder if this will still be the case 5 years or more down the line though.
Probably. If I met a Flash fan irl who wanted to discuss the Nate MSL debacle, it would probably result in fisticuffs.
I doubt that lol
Depends on if Flash is with his Dad or not...
FlashDad is kinda crazy.. I wonder how many people in the history of the wold have been thrown out of a Broodwar game.
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
“Being sorry is the highest act of selfishness, seeing value only after discarding it.”
Doug Horton
If he was really sincere about it, that would make him the dumbest fuck ever...
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
“Being sorry is the highest act of selfishness, seeing value only after discarding it.”
Doug Horton
If he was really sincere about it, that would make him the dumbest fuck ever...
On December 04 2013 07:32 figq wrote: Lol, I remembered that I've seen apology by Savior and was wondering why people these days kept repeating he never apologized... but I didn't care enough to dig it up or argue about that. I mean, haters gonna hate, they'll just think of something else.
People who aren't Savior crazies can read the spoiler for the truth about the so-called apology and have a laugh about how uninformed those Savior crazies are. Savior crazies can ignore it. It won't make a difference to you guys anyways.
Savior's so-called apology and my running commentary follows after each paragraph. I am guessing the Savior crazies 1) didn't read the text of the apology, 2) don't know the facts of court case, 3) think that any letter that starts with "I apologize" is an actual apology, 4) or all of the above. The long commentary on third paragraph is the relevant one. The others are sort of secondary.
Hello. It's me, Savior.
First of, I am bowing my head and apologize to the fans, to everyone who loved eSports, and people related to eSports, for disappointing them with my ignorant actions. As someone who has felt a lot of responsibility related to eSports, I would like to admit to my mistakes, and while it's late, confess my mistakes to everyone who has trusted me.
Summary of paragraph: He apologizes for his "mistakes", without specifying what those mistakes are. This will become important later in this "apology" letter.
In order to achieve my goal as a progamer, I dropped out of school in my second to last year of Highschool and came up to Seoul by myself. And I had become a progamer and even up to a few months ago, was active under my previous team. Whether or not my records were good or bad, I only thought about the game. Even when my records were so bad that everyone suspected me, in order to reclaim my glory, I concentrated solely on gaming other than the 5 hours a day where I slept. The game was my entire life. But now, due to making a wrong choice at one moment, I have to accept that I have to give up my life as a gamer.
Summary of paragraph:Pity-seeking by talking about his previous hard work and humble beginnings. It's not a good sign when you start saying stuff like this immediately. The pity party is followed by the disgusting revisionist history that follows. Also, as pointed out brilliantly by Stratos, he writes that last sentence about giving up his life as a gamer and has the nerve to do the things he has done since then.
Around last September, there were rumors between the gamers that there were betting sites with match fixing. It is true that I have received several offers through my mini homepage. The offers were really sweet, but because they do not help my career, I have clearly delivered the message that I would not participate in such an act. But the problem is that I told my friends without reserve, and in the end had a bad influence on them. For this, I will acknowledge my mistake and I apologize from the bottom of my heart.
Summary of paragraph:This is the key paragraph. Look at how he prevaricates about his actual role in the match-fixing. He tries to look good by saying by telling this fairy tale that he resisted the temptation to fix matches but simply made a light mistake of passing on this information to his friends. The fact that he actively recruited and repeatedly pressured these guys is part of the court testimony that convicted him. Here he is making it sound as if all he did was say, "Hey, did you know that you can make $5000 if you fix a match?" and went about his own way. Hwasin testified that Savior kept asking him to fix matches after he first expressed indecisiveness about the offer. (edit: it wasn't an outright refusal). According to Hwasin, Savior went as far as telling a story about one of Savior's friends losing a lot of money because of Hwasin's earlier loss in which Savior told Hwasin about Leta's build order, pressuring him into fixing another game. When questioned about these events in trial Savior said that he "couldn't remember" if he had made offers to Hwasin after the initial refusal. The evidence in the trial also says that Savior often played the role of transferring payments to other match-fixers and there was a long record of financial transactions to prove this. Savior went about this like a member of organized crime, even going as far as to devising a system of making cash payments in $50 increments to avoid detection instead of using lump-sum bank transfers like the other broker (Mr. Won). This FUCKING ASSHOLE has the gall to pretend that all he did was pass on some news about match-fixing opportunities? This is supposed to be a fucking apology? This isn't the end of it by any means. Savior even took the match-fixing reward that was to be paid to DArKeLf and took it for himself. The fucker didn't even have the so-called honor among thieves. An apology that fucking covers up his vast and deep involvement in the criminal enterprise? That's not an apology, that's a fucking press release.
In addition, I would like to explain my position and why I waited so long to clear up my position.
Last May, I was in the hospital for a month due to surgery on my knees. But because the situation started getting serious, I contacted a certain reporter and the reporter visited me and there was an interview. In contrast of the articles that were published, I told him everything I knew about match fixing and that I wasn't away without leave from the dormatories.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! My knee hurts.
After the interview, I felt as if I had gotten a load off my mind, and I waited for the article to appear. However, even though I waited for a week, the article that expressed my position didn't come out, and time kept passing.
Summary of paragraph:He's essentially saying that the press isn't telling his side of the story, which, when combined with his sanitized version of the crimes in the third paragraph, is supposed to suggest that he didn't do all the stuff that the press is reporting that he actually did (and evidence in trial proved that he did).
After that, I became a coward who couldn't even read the comments on the internet, and thought that if time will pass, I will be forgotten. However, because of me, my old school's homepage was terrorized with malicious content and many people who has helped me has gotten hurt. And most of all, because I have hurt my parents and my fans, I thought that I could no longer run away from reality.
Summary of paragraph:Pity party! Bad stuff happening to me and people around me!
If my thoughts were proper back then, some of my friends wouldn't have gotten stuck in that bad road, and those friends, whose lives were about the game, would still be active in the scene. Because of this, I am regretting this even more and I am posting this message of apology. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry.
Summary of paragraph:He's really "sorry". He's really sorry that bad things happened. Uh huh, you are sorry for just "telling" your friends about the match-fixing opportunities?
Once again, I want to apologize to everyone who has been disappointed about me, and I will atone on the fact that I have caused a lot of criticism in society. I bow my head and apologize from the bottom of my heart
- Savior. Summary of paragraph:Variations of "I apologize".
So what did he actually do in this non-apology?
1) Said that he's "sorry". Okay good start. 2) Tried to generate pity for himself with content irrelevant to the match-fixing scandal. 3) Pretty much lied about his vast role in the match-fixing scandal by sugar-coating it in a language that makes it seem as if all he did was pass on the news that people could make money from match-fixing. 4) Indirectly suggested that the press is not telling "his side", when "his side" is the made up fairy tale that he spins in the third paragraph. 5) Said that he's "sorry". Meaningless filler intended to trick you into thinking that this is a real apology.
Fuck yeah, that's a great "apology".
I guess us sane people can wonder what makes people either blind-and-deaf or so confident about speaking on issues that they have little knowledge about because they read a headline.
sane ppl wouldn't waste time trying to pick apart an obviously contrived apology
It's a little fun at the expense of crazies who insist that this is a real apology. Feeling edgy and cool today?
ur just embarrassed that u were wrong about savior not apologizing now you'll do anything you can to try and feel like you were right all along
Except you're making shit up cool guy. I wasn't the one who said that he didn't make an apology. Looking back in the thread, I find that you were responding to some other person who said that there was no apology by saying that a fake apology is bad. To which, I agree that a fake apology is worse than no apology and list the things that Savior has done that are even worse than a fake apology. Nowhere do I claim that Savior didn't make any nominal apology. My posts have consistently pointed to his unrepentant actions rather than to lack of an apology. Oh I forgot, cool guys don't read. They quickly scan and make snippy sarcastic comments.
Nice try cool guy. Don't worry, you'll always be cool and edgy in my heart. That shit's so sexy.
i'm just incredibly disappointed in my boy savior, in the few times we drank together he seemed cooler than that. match fixing i can understand but fake apologies is the lowest of low
“Being sorry is the highest act of selfishness, seeing value only after discarding it.”
Doug Horton
If he was really sincere about it, that would make him the dumbest fuck ever...
Amen.
Exactly, this was just political as all the others did, makes sense to me.
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
Good to know that he didn't realize what was up, if in fact that's true.
The problem with Kespa is its pride basically. I mean, I became an ex-fan of savior because of what he did but, IMO, that's not the point here. Kespa is out of its jurisdiction. The Chinese can invite whatever they want and with the stellar track record of Savior, pre-match fixing, I would invite him too.
The question of whether savior should be able to play or not has been discussed to death. If organizers wants to invite him to play in their tournaments even with the knowledge of the crime he was involved before, it's up to them. KeSPA doesn't get to say anything about it. They do not have the monopoly of the game and even if they still did, it is still out of thier jurisdiction.
oh and savior can go fuck himself too .. along with Kespa
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Fuck savior and all he has done and what not. But there are very few players who are mainly interested in making the game they play big. If you blame savior for that you also need to hate on A LOT of other players.
On December 04 2013 15:04 Wildmoon wrote: People on this thread are so ridiculuosly angry on whatever side they are on. This reminds me why I don't really want to engage in BW section. Quite sad that when I played BW I didn't even know there was a scene for it. It may have looked better back in the day.
I wouldn't call it anger so quickly. At least, when people are typing in detail, in length and being emphatic in their points...do you know they can also be perfectly calm while doing so? Having very firm opinions on something after having thought about the topic and then typing in length is very different from just venting anger. Why should people be "neutral" just for the side of appearing less angry to assuming types on the internet :\ AND/OR why should people be "neutral"? What's wrong with people having strong opinions, so long as they've thought enough to have some reasoning behind their opinions?
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
Well, that guy also kinda forgot to pay blizzard for the rights which is kinda a big deal.
I'd like to once again stress the point that Blizzard, as far as we know, does not know or care one bit about any of this, and has yet to officially or unofficially acknowledge this tournament's existence in any public capacity.
From my view, KeSPA tried to involve Blizzard but Blizzard was smart enough to want nothing to do with it.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
Starcraft got big because of players like Boxer and Yellow who were great with the public and put on a show everytime they played. Their focus was always to have fun and make it exiting to be part of the SCBW gaming atmosphere. Brood War won't get big again because his name is there. It will get big because people like Sonic give a shit about the game and want to make it live on forever. It will get big because the players in SOSPA league are having fun and chatting in game to mess with each other. It really frustrates me that people think Savior is the key to succesful BW competitive scene. He's not needed. Period.
On December 06 2013 00:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I'd like to once again stress the point that Blizzard, as far as we know, does not know or care one bit about any of this, and has yet to officially or unofficially acknowledge this tournament's existence in any public capacity.
From my view, KeSPA tried to involve Blizzard but Blizzard was smart enough to want nothing to do with it.
why would blizzard come in conflict with a chinesse tournament organizer that they can not control over a game that does not bring them anymore profit these days?
On December 06 2013 00:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I'd like to once again stress the point that Blizzard, as far as we know, does not know or care one bit about any of this, and has yet to officially or unofficially acknowledge this tournament's existence in any public capacity.
From my view, KeSPA tried to involve Blizzard but Blizzard was smart enough to want nothing to do with it.
why would blizzard come in conflict with a chinesse tournament organizer that they can not control over a game that does not bring them anymore profit these days?
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
There are a lot of jobs that don't require that much of an education. Take for example Lomo or Ruby, with the same educational situation they achieved quite successful careers. And the ones like Hwasin or fake yellow who share the same "taint" as savior, I think they are doing well enough with regular jobs without having to leech on naive BW fans. They had the decency to stop for good. Savior presence on Afreeca only taints Afreeca streamers image, and only savior and only him is the one who gets any benefits from it.
On December 05 2013 23:43 Lorch wrote: Fuck savior and all he has done and what not. But there are very few players who are mainly interested in making the game they play big. If you blame savior for that you also need to hate on A LOT of other players.
That's some stupid fallacy logic. Savior is detrimental to BW whereas all the rest aren't. Savior as all the rest may enjoy and be passionate about the game, but he's either selfish or so naive to insist in taking part of the public scene after his doings. It only brings bad things and he is the only one to benefit from it.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
man honestly if he actually have the balls of steel that people here claim he does he will do this:drop bw,pick up sc2 or dota2 or lol and move to a foreign team where no one gives a damn about the bw scandals bla bla bla and then start ravaging the iems,dreamhacks,online cups etc.if he wins he would be the perfect villain. jaedong vs savior dreamhack final in sc2 would be more epic than jaedong vs flash.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
man honestly if he actually have the balls of steel that people here claim he does he will do this:drop bw,pick up sc2 or dota2 or lol and move to a foreign team where no one gives a damn about the bw scandals bla bla bla and then start ravaging the iems,dreamhacks,online cups etc.if he wins he would be the perfect villain. jaedong vs savior dreamhack final in sc2 would be more epic than jaedong vs flash.
If he takes on SC2, my respect for him will just go down that lower.
I think some people jumped to conclusions and in their mind it was blizzards fault, as usual, but it wasn't the case it seems. That rabid anti blizzard sentiment is still astonishing to me.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
Well, that guy also kinda forgot to pay blizzard for the rights which is kinda a big deal.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
man honestly if he actually have the balls of steel that people here claim he does he will do this:drop bw,pick up sc2 or dota2 or lol and move to a foreign team where no one gives a damn about the bw scandals bla bla bla and then start ravaging the iems,dreamhacks,online cups etc.if he wins he would be the perfect villain. jaedong vs savior dreamhack final in sc2 would be more epic than jaedong vs flash.
I wonder what JD would think about that. I also doubt people would just forget if he switched games.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
man honestly if he actually have the balls of steel that people here claim he does he will do this:drop bw,pick up sc2 or dota2 or lol and move to a foreign team where no one gives a damn about the bw scandals bla bla bla and then start ravaging the iems,dreamhacks,online cups etc.if he wins he would be the perfect villain. jaedong vs savior dreamhack final in sc2 would be more epic than jaedong vs flash.
I wonder what JD would think about that. I also doubt people would just forget if he switched games.
thats exactly the thing.imagine the storyline:jaedong the most honest and hardworking bw pro of all time vs savior the corrupt and discraced bonjwa.light vs darkness.hero bonjwa vs evil bonjwa.who will trimph?also imagine if jd meets savior in the finals and jd wins his first major tournament in sc2 by defeating savior.
@rekrul
with a criminal record he can not get any jobs at major korean corporations.he will have to start with minimum wage whether he likes it or not.especially in south korea where he is already infamous.his only option is to own his own business from the shadows but in terms of high payd jobs i doubt any company would want to risk with him.beside she aint got no qualification.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
I think the point was that he does have options besides the bw scene.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
what you don't get is that would be the end of the world for a person like savior
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
what you don't get is that would be the end of the world for a person like savior
That's up to the person, not the situation. Someone like flash or jd in the same shoes and they would work off their asses and get ahead. The thing is, they wouldn't had incite others to throw matches in the first place.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
what you don't get is that would be the end of the world for a person like savior
in your entire rant you still haven't provided an alternative for savior.there are plenty of people far richer and far more succesfull than savior who had a lot more money than savior and because of their incapacity to recognize they weren't good anymore ended up taking their own lifes or living worse than street people.whitney huston,michael jackson,o j simpson come to mind.not to mention in south korea there are countless kpop stars who after being abandoned by ther labels work as bartenders in bars.there aren't that many options for him.whats he suppose to do?play online pooker?open his business with the money he earned in bw?how much money does he actually have saved up?nobody knows that.besides he's a paria in his own country.he can't speak english.he can't emigrate into the eu or usa and with todays laws and interpol your criminal record might actually stay.where can he go?china where people do not care that much about what he did.face it.considering the alternative an education+normally paid job is better than a plastic bag on an abandon bench in the parck
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
what you don't get is that would be the end of the world for a person like savior
That's up to the person, not the situation. Someone like flash or jd in the same shoes and they would work off their asses and get ahead. The thing is, they wouldn't had incite others to throw matches in the first place.
So savior is an inherently bad person, right? We don't know how Flash or JD would have acted in savior's position. We will also never know. I condemn savior for what he did but you can't just compare him to others.
Hell, we don't even know 100% if there are no other match fixers around.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Since this is brought on so often, another question: What else can he do? I have no idea about his educational background, but would anyone want to hire savior in the real world for any job?
If his choice is to either live in poverty or make money from the game he damaged, it's hard to completely damn him for every move he makes on Afreeca.
I'd like to address this. 1. He has a criminal record. It will make it hard for him to get jobs because he broke the law and that's what happens. But his infraction won't prevent him from be able to work in other jobs.
2. Savior has the same opportunity as everyone else to work his ass off at minimum wage and pay for education. I worked 3 jobs and 60 hour weeks for years out of high school. If Savior can't make it on his own outside of Starcraft its because he is lazy and isn't taking responsibility for himself.
No matter what, we can't justify letting him play Starcraft "because it's his only source of income". Its called being an adult and get a job no matter what. And anyone who has actually had to struggle in life economically like me will understand my sentiment.
not sure why you think savior is obligated by any moral means to live a 'normal life' as penance for his wrong-doings.
using your logic you may as well condemn him to an aids infested mud pit in africa, cause 'struggling in life economically' is a matter of perspective and the fact that you're able to post on TL.net means you're better off than the majority of the people on planet earth
Wow. Don't get defensive on me. I didn't say he had to pay a life long penance. I'm actually stating facts. If you have a criminal record then it will be harder to get a job for the rest of your life unless that mark is removed. Your behavior in this thread makes me want to be anti-savior and I've pretty remained neutral in my posts on Savior himself. My only focus has been what will benefit Brood War. That's all I care about.
And to your second comment, I don't need to defend how hard I've had it in life or pretend others haven't had it harder. My point was, if you work hard and take up multiple jobs you can afford education and eventually work your way into normal society. He's not stuck in gaming because he's uneducated. Now I'd appreciate it if you got off my back when I'm not being hateful towards anyone here or in fact Savior himself.
so in your magical reality you want 26 year old savior who has done nothing but play video games his whole life, has made tons of money, lived atleast a somewhat 'glamorous lifestyle', has committed a wild fraud, and displayed sociopath behavior...
to go back to school for 4+ years then try and rise from the bottom in korea with a tarnished reputation making 1500$ a month to start with little chance of getting anywhere in his lifetime
yeah, people can change for better or for worse, but to even suggest he should do that is like saying man that dog should use the litterbox instead of continuously shitting on my floor
You still don't get it. The question was asked is it possible for him to do something outside of gaming. And the answer is yes. He will just have to work his ass off like he did in Brood War to become successful. I'm not suggesting anything. I'm stating that there is a way for him to succeed without gaming and to argue otherwise is ignorant. Life is all about working hard. If my career suddenly didn't exist, I have no problem picking up trash to pay the bills until another opportunity opens. People have to go through tough times like this every day. Just because he was famous once doesn't mean he can't take a low paying job and work his way back up again. But I don't feel like your getting it. Feel free to PM me if you're still confused about minimum wage jobs and how its not the end of the world to work those jobs. I've stated my points and don't need this to be an argument.
what you don't get is that would be the end of the world for a person like savior
in your entire rant you still haven't provided an alternative for savior.there are plenty of people far richer and far more succesfull than savior who had a lot more money than savior and because of their incapacity to recognize they weren't good anymore ended up taking their own lifes or living worse than street people.whitney huston,michael jackson,o j simpson come to mind.not to mention in south korea there are countless kpop stars who after being abandoned by ther labels work as bartenders in bars.there aren't that many options for him.whats he suppose to do?play online pooker?open his business with the money he earned in bw?how much money does he actually have saved up?nobody knows that.besides he's a paria in his own country.he can't speak english.he can't emigrate into the eu or usa and with todays laws and interpol your criminal record might actually stay.where can he go?china where people do not care that much about what he did.face it.considering the alternative an education+normally paid job is better than a plastic bag on an abandon bench in the parck
it doesn't matter to me what savior does, his options are very limited, and he'll obviously continue to extract as much as he can from BW.
i just find it very humorous when someone comes in here and posts about how savior needs to buckle down and go to college and grind his way back up starting with a 9-5 job LOL
On December 06 2013 04:39 perfidiusrex wrote: in your entire rant you still haven't provided an alternative for savior.there are plenty of people far richer and far more succesfull than savior who had a lot more [...]
The point is, sAviOr is still (kinda) successful in BW, while people want him to fail miserably and go work somewhere else. It's the fact he can still live from the game that pissed some people off.
His responses almost make me think that inviting Savior was some sort of ploy to get more Koreans to take interest in the league (if just to prevent savior from playing). He doesn't really defend the decision, it seems like he's saying "well if you guys were more involved this wouldn't have happened". No such thing as bad publicity, I guess.
One of the many sad consequences of the crimes of Savior is that BW lost a really great player. If you dig up on TL you can find replays by famous progamers and among them you can watch and analyze Savior games. His sophisticated style is different from the other historically great zergs. He really makes use of all the zerg tools. Too bad if there's no turning back.
On December 05 2013 22:44 justiceknight wrote: savior will be the saviour for BW, i dont really care what happened in the past as long as some1 is still trying to make BW big i will fully support him
He's just trying to make his pockets big, not BW.
Where do we draw the line between mutual benefit and selfishness?
On December 06 2013 04:57 sheaRZerg wrote: His responses almost make me think that inviting Savior was some sort of ploy to get more Koreans to take interest in the league (if just to prevent savior from playing). He doesn't really defend the decision, it seems like he's saying "well if you guys were more involved this wouldn't have happened". No such thing as bad publicity, I guess.
He'd still have gotten a lot of Koreans to enter in future if he listened to Sonic and didn't have Savior though. That bridge may be burned.
On December 06 2013 05:01 figq wrote: One of the many sad consequences of the crimes of Savior is that BW lost a really great player. If you dig up on TL you can find replays by famous progamers and among them you can watch and analyze Savior games. His sophisticated style is different from the other historically great zergs. He really makes use of all the zerg tools. Too bad if there's no turning back.
Savior was bad for a while before the match fixing thing though. If shine played bw still, he would be the better zerg.
On December 06 2013 05:09 Rekrul wrote: everybody knows u gotta do everything for e-sports only or else u r a bad person
A lot of us who love and care about the game went through losing our e-sport, seeing it rise again and then almost losing it again at one point due to another match-fixing incident that you may or may not be aware of, which is why not all of us are like "who cares if this hurts the scene as long as it's funny/cool in some twisted way to someone who's apparently very bored".
On December 06 2013 05:09 Rekrul wrote: everybody knows u gotta do everything for e-sports only or else u r a bad person
A lot of us who love and care about the game went through losing our e-sport, seeing it rise again and then almost losing it again at one point due to another match-fixing incident that you may or may not be aware of, which is why not all of us are like "who cares if this hurts the scene as long as it's funny/cool in some twisted way to someone who's apparently very bored".
On December 06 2013 05:09 Rekrul wrote: everybody knows u gotta do everything for e-sports only or else u r a bad person
Fuck e-sports, I only care about BW.
I don't care if all other e-sports (except for DotA2 because that game is actually fun and skillful) dies tomorrow beside BW, I wouldn't give two-shits.
On December 06 2013 05:09 Rekrul wrote: everybody knows u gotta do everything for e-sports only or else u r a bad person
Fuck e-sports, I only care about BW.
I don't care if all other e-sports (except for DotA2 because that game is actually fun and skillful) dies tomorrow beside BW, I wouldn't give two-shits.
Savior can play what the fuck he wants to play, if me makes money from streaming BW, that is fine. He is not breaking any laws. All his detractors posting about him not to be allow to play BW for money are just them with their emotions riled up.
But tournament organizers should think twice about inviting him to play.
But, again, that's a different matter. The main point here is KeSPA being a dick and its poking itself on the Chinese Community.
On December 06 2013 07:34 forumtext wrote: Why don't Kespa just send in their top guns in every match that Savior is in and snipe him?
Win win for everyone.
In this culture, that would mean Kespa still acknowledges Savior's right to play games and they're all about the opposite of that when it comes to Savior.
On December 03 2013 10:43 BigFan wrote: no, it doesn't. There wasn't anything specific in my sentence that caused me to lose credibility. People are focused so much on Saviour that they don't seem to realize or are forgetting that there are other match fixers as well. They also had a choice to make and decided to match fix. That's not made up lol. I'm not talking levels of match fixing or who's more involved. There were no stories being made up here. Saviour was the most popular from the match fixers by far. Heck, even with my limited BW knowledge, I'm aware of that fact. There's a reason there was TL articles about him, he's considered a bonjwa and the maestro etc...
You said that he was made a scapegoat that is what makes you lose credibility. Selective listing of true statements does not make the conclusion that follows true. He was the freaking ring-leader for fuck's sake. The low-level criminal who sells drugs to children on the street is bad, but the guy who directs the operation as the leader of the gang is even worse, especially if he was already well off and didn't need the extra cash. He abused his position as a respected player and older brother figure to do this. To say that the extra blame and anger directed at Savior is because he was scapegoated for his fame is to ignore all these facts that make him deserving of more blame and anger.
Also, you keep saying that people forget that there are other match-fixers. Repeating that statement will not make it true. No, people haven't forgotten about those other match-fixers. Those other match-fixers have just kept themselves out of the public eye (as they should), whereas Savior is constantly doing things that make the public take notice. This is kind of obvious.
meant to reply to this sooner but lost my reply in a cut/paste accident lol. I'll make it short: + Show Spoiler +
I said scapegoat because every time the match fixing scandal comes up (a thread or something related), he's always the main person talked about lol. When was the last time we heard someone mention Justin or something? Ya, I'm aware that this thread is about Savior, just saying that he's always the one that gets picked out. btw, Justin was just as guilty as Savior was:
He went on to bribe six gamers a total of eight times.
Twelve games are alleged to have been tampered with in this manner.
Since there were 12 games that were matchfixed, unless I'm mistaken and missed something, Savior was only responsible for having the other 4 fixed? Ya, I realize he was the middle man in it and tried to use his influence as a respected leader to get progamers to join him but they can say no as well. They still had a choice!
He got invited to a Chinese tournament and participated. You think he's going to decline because people will get mad? They're already mad at him so him going won't change much. That would be my guess on why he went. For the record, I'm not saying Savior's matchfixing involvement wasn't despicable or anything. Just that focusing solely on him and having the community split(always likely will be) won't help the BW scene.
Fomos just did an interview with Savior, he apologize again for everything but still insist he did not fixed any game himself, he was merely a middle man. He is also confirmed that he is streaming these days for the money. Stork is gonna be so MAD .
He said he did not match fix his game vs Hyvaa. Anyone know the exact link?
On December 07 2013 00:55 forumtext wrote: Fomos just did an interview with Savior, he apologize again for everything but still insist he did not fixed any game himself, he was merely a middle man. He is also confirmed that he is streaming these days for the money. Stork is gonna be so MAD .
He said he did not match fix his game vs Hyvaa. Anyone know the exact link?
You cant even trust him jesus christ, if you for a second believe he is going to be totally honest in a public interview then you might aswell start taking corrupt politicians word.
Saviors behaviour is on the other hand really old news, whats the point in further discussing it.
Kespa and blizzard cant control the actions of other organizations. If another organization feels like giving savior the option to play, its their call. WE can like it or not, and when we make a tournament we can decide who will play and who wont.
On December 07 2013 00:55 forumtext wrote: Fomos just did an interview with Savior, he apologize again for everything but still insist he did not fixed any game himself, he was merely a middle man. He is also confirmed that he is streaming these days for the money. Stork is gonna be so MAD .
He said he did not match fix his game vs Hyvaa. Anyone know the exact link?
KESPA has no concept of freedom... Whoever organizes a tournament should have the right to invite any players he or she wishes to. If other players have moral objections to the player pool for containing ex criminals, they can choose to not participate. If fans have moral objections in watching ex criminals play bw, they can choose to not watch the event. KESPA has no right to ask Blizzard to punish savior for playing in a tourney when he was invited by the event organizer and still has fans who want to watch him play. The tyranny of KESPA is ridiculous, way out of line. KESPA has the right to ban savior from KESPA events, and they get to make their stance public, but they have no right to stop savior from participating in non KESPA events, should the event organizer be willing to include ex criminals in their player pool.
On December 07 2013 00:55 forumtext wrote: Fomos just did an interview with Savior, he apologize again for everything but still insist he did not fixed any game himself, he was merely a middle man. He is also confirmed that he is streaming these days for the money. Stork is gonna be so MAD .
He said he did not match fix his game vs Hyvaa. Anyone know the exact link?
You cant even trust him jesus christ, if you for a second believe he is going to be totally honest in a public interview then you might aswell start taking corrupt politicians word.
Saviors behaviour is on the other hand really old news, whats the point in further discussing it.
Translation from the original Korean is in the spoiler tag. Translator's commentary (TC) notes some items in which Savior directly contradicts the testimony of other match-fixers, his own testimony in trial, video recordings of what he said on his own stream, and hiya's on-stream comments. This translation is just to preempt a Chinese-to-English translation of a Korean-to-Chinese translation. The interview does not contain any bombshells. + Show Spoiler +
Exclusive Interview: Ma Jaeyoon (Savior) addresses the endless controversy surrounding him
A recent incident resulted in the Internet being flooded with comments about Ma Jaeyoon (Savior). Controversy erupted when it became known that Ma---who was permanently banned by KeSPA in 2010 for his role in the match-fixing scandal---competed in a Chinese Starcraft Brood War (henceforth S1) league.
As the most infamous man in eSports, Ma's participation was by itself enough to cause a huge shock. When it was reported that he had even won the tournament, sharp criticisms such as "He has no shame", "He destroyed S1 and has no conscience", "Does he love money that much", and more were posted one after another.
Fomos then attempted to contact Ma directly. He has frequently been a hot topic since the match-fixing scandal because of, among other things, his broadcasting activities on AfreecaTV and his lawsuits against online commenters. He has never made an official statement, but we wanted to find out his position on the various issues that are centered around him.
The interview with Ma was unexpectedly easy to arrange. We contacted him through Yoo Jinwoo (Beast)---a former practice player on the Hwasung team---and he accepted our interview request immediately. On December 5th, a few days after the controversy first arose, we met a coffee shop in the Gangnam area. According to him, this is the second interview that he has done with the press since the match-fixing scandal. We first asked about the facts relating to his participation in the Chinese tournament and then moved on to the topic of his past transgressions.
Q: How did you come to participate in the Chinese tournament? Did you know about the shock that it caused in Korea?
A: The Chinese side contacted me first via e-mail. We had some back-and-forth communication before I came to participate in the 2v2 tournament, as is already known. I knew that my participation would cause an uproar. The reason I decided to participate despite anticipating this reaction is the same as the reason that I am streaming on AfreecaTV. I will answer this question in more detail a little bit later in this interview.
Q: The Korea reactions are overwhelmingly negative in nature. What do you think about this?
A: It's inevitable. That's the way it has been until now, and will be in the future. I will have to withstand these critical opinions about me for many more years, perhaps for my entire life.
Q: Why did you go even though you knew that it would result in such a negative public response?
A: I made a very selfish decision to participate in the Chinese tournament. I knew that the fans and those involved in eSports would not like it. However, my current situation demands that I participate anyway. It is not as if I stream and play in tournaments because I want people to be mad at me.
Q: What happened on your trip to China?
A: I visited China back when I was a player (trans. note: on a pro team). I was surprised that the Chinese welcomed me nearly as much as they did back then. It made me wonder if it was okay for me to be welcomed thusly. However, during a session when the fans in attendance were allowed to do a Q-and-A with me, the host instructed the translator not to translate some questions. I asked about it later and found out that the fan had asked "How do you feel about hitting rock bottom after the match-fixing scandal in Korea?" It made me realized that the Chinese organizers and fans are informed about what I did in Korea.
TC: Perhaps this confirms that the earlier post about the Chinese organizer claiming ignorance about the scandal was a lie?
Q: Do you intend to participate in more Chinese tournaments.
A: As of right now, I am willing to go if they are willing to invite me. I know that other Korean players have attended Chinese tournaments in the past and are willing to do so again in the future. A tournament of this scale is held about once or twice a year; the rest are mostly online tournaments.
I asked the organizers, "How do you feel about the negative reaction in Korea because of my participation?" They replied that they want to continue supporting me. They went so far as to ask if there is anything they could do to improve my public image in Korea. I really couldn't give an answer to that question.
Q: As far as we know, you haven't done any interviews since news of the match-fixing scandal first broke. Why did you so readily accept our interview request?
A: I never avoided interviews; I just didn't have any opportunities for interviews. Fomos interviewed me right after the scandal first became known, but the interview was never published anywhere. It was the only interview that I did during what was a very difficult time for me. I was suspicious about why the interview never appeared anywhere, and also why no one contacted me again, but just thought that I should let it be. If I look back on it now, I think that doing nothing after that interview was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.
Fomos: Ma was under the false impression that the earlier interview that never appeared was with Fomos. The earlier interview was in fact with another media organization. Ma said that he has twice apologized, once on the web and once on his personal stream. He claims that Fomos interviewed him through his apology on his personal stream. However, at the time the scandal first became known, Fomos contacted Ma's mother to arrange an interview, but the interview was never realized because she suddenly broke off all contact. After we explained this to him, Ma admitted that he had confused Fomos with another media organization.
Q: What was the content of that earlier interview?
A: At that time, we did the interview in my hospital room. I met with two reporters with whom I was well-acquainted. I was hospitalized because of my knee, so I talked about my health, and I also apologized to the fans and those involved in eSports. I also talked about the things I saw, heard, and did during the match-fixing incident. After that, no one wanted to interview me no matter what I did, be it broadcasting on Afreeca or something else. If anyone requested an interview, what I am saying now would have come out much 1-3 years earlier.
Q: Regardless of that earlier interview, this is the first official interview, so we have to ask about the match-fixing scandal. You might feel uncomfortable about talking about the distant past.
A: It's okay because I don't have anything more to lose. There's nothing to hide. I don't think that this interview will change anyone's mind.
Q: First, is there anything unfair to you about what transpired as it relates to the match-fixing scandal?
A: I didn't personally fix any of my own games. I know that this particular aspect is not that important to people. Even people who know that I did not fix my own games believe that the things that I did actually do are even worse than fixing my own games. This is not that surprising if we consider the exceptional position I had in the community at that time. However, in the case of the game against Shin Daegun (hyvaa) people are convinced that I lost on purpose and that I just left no evidence.
TC: The game against hyvaa is the one that made Nal_Ra say that he wanted to see a slowed down replay. First, Hyvaa kills three drones in Savior's natural with one zergling. Hyvaa and Savior then engage in the decisive air battle near Savior's natural. Hyvaa has 2 scourge + 10 mutalisk on one gas production. Savior has 8 scourge and 8 mutalisk on two gas production. Savior seems to a-move his scourge and does not micro to avoid Hyvaa's scourge. People believe that Savior left no evidence because he was very careful about covering his tracks and also there were problems with obtaining evidence from online betting sites, which were mostly located overseas. Many of those sites also evaporated once the scandal became public. Movie said on his stream that Savior wrote a fake entry in his diary about how he wasn't playing well, and left it open where everyone could see it. The underlying premise is that Movie---who was on the same team---believes that Savior is lying. Of course, we don't know if he has extra information, so it is unclear what to make of it.
Q: Are you saying that you did not lose that game on purpose?
A: While my annual base salary was cut significantly, my contract had strong incentive payments, which made me want to win as many games as possible. From December on, I practiced for nearly three months on 4-5 hours of sleep per day without going out. That was the hardest I've practiced since I became a pro gamer. I was considering a February retirement, so I wanted to go out on a high note. However, even I admit that it was such a ridiculous game (vs hyvaa) so I am frustrated by the fact that there is nothing I can do to convince others that I am innocent in that case. Later, I even thought about just telling others that I did it since no one would believe anything else. Rather than feeling that it was unfair, I was upset about it.
TC: The part about incentives seems roughly correct. It's been written in some places (without source attribution) that Savior would receive about a $3000 bonus from the team for each win at that time.
Q: Why were you thinking about retirement?
A: It hurt my pride to be collecting a salary from the team without playing. However, I was losing every time I did get to play, so that made me want to retire.
Q: It shocked people why a player of Ma's caliber would need to do something like this.
A: The prosecutor in charge of the case also asked me the same question. He said that the paper trail showed that they were only able to trace only $2000 (USD) in my bank account from the match-fixing activities. At the time, I did not know that match-fixing was a bad thing and never imagined that it would become such a big deal. When I was first approached about the possibility of fixing my own games, I refused quite easily. As I was saying earlier, I was considering retirement anyways.
Q: And?
A: After getting the offer, I told Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin) over Battle.net about it. I told him that some hyung ("big bro") I knew had offered me $3000-5000 for losing a game intentionally. At that time, Youngsoo told me that he was going to be eliminated from the OSL Round of 16 even if he won all his games. After hearing this, I told Youngsoo to contact me if he was interested in match-fixing. Later, Youngsoo claimed that I suggested that he fix matches. Of course, it was my fault for saying things the way I did. It would have been better to simply pass on the contact information to Youngsoo and let him make the arrangements directly on his own without my involvement. However, the two parties did not know each other, while I knew both, so I acted as an intermediary to pass along payments. Both Youngsoo and I did not that we were doing something so bad, but we at least knew that this was something that should be kept a secret. However, Justin somehow found out about our conversation and contacted me. When I told Justin that I would not fix my own games, he asked me if I knew anyone who might be willing and I mentioned Kim Sung-gi (Darkelf). Jin Youngsoo and Kim Sung-gi are the only people to whom I passed on payments for match-fixing. Kim Sung-gi is the only one I recruited into match-fixing. You can confirm this in the judge's ruling.
TC: In the trial, Savior said that he tried to recruit both Much and Xellos in addition to Darkelf, but only Darkelf agreed. Hiya said that Savior asked him to fix matches. Since this was not mentioned in the trial, we can conjecture that perhaps there are more people Savior tried to recruit as well. Also, Savior says that he did not recruit Hwasin, but Hwasin's testimony in the trial directly contradicts this. Furthermore, Savior's own words above reveal that he did in fact recruit Hwasin. It's just wordplay; he didn't use the exact words, "I want you to fix matches". Beyond that, Savior has stated on his own stream that he tempted some players by telling them that he himself had fixed a couple of his own games and nothing bad happened. He claims that this is why so many people think that he fixed his own games: Because he lied that he had fixed his own games in order to make other players willing to fix their games! "If even Savior is doing it, then it must be okay." This video was floating around the web for a while and I have seen it myself. When he says that Darkelf is the only one he recruited, he's saying that Darkelf is the only one he successfully recruited. Just some wordplay. He is on record saying that he recruited others.
Q: A lot of people said that you betrayed Coach Cho, who raised you into a pro gamer.
A: After the Lunar New Year holiday weekend in February, I was supposed to return to the team dorms at 6pm. The coach called me and said that he was on his way to meet with KeSPA. He wanted to ask me one thing before he went. He asked me if I fixed matches. That honestly scared me, but I also did not think that things would become bigger, so I told the coach that I was not involved. He said okay and told me to return home. Following those instructions, I went home instead of going to the team dorms. I was suddenly overcome with fear and phoned Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin). I wanted to know if his coach at STX also knew about this, but he did not answer my calls or texts. Other than Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin) and Kim Sung-gi (Darkelf), I did not know who else had fixed matches and did not know how the betting system worked.
TC: Hwasin's interviews from way back once again directly contradict Savior's statement here. Both could be lying since both are criminals, even if Savior has been caught more often in public lies.
Q: Do you have anything to say to those guys?
TC: There is a screen capture of someone's summary of an interview with the prosecutor in charge of the case, who says that a player who likely is Savior (no names are named) was a broker of match-fixing rather than someone who fixed his own games.
A: Of course, I am sorry. Not just to the players, but also to the higher-ups at CJ Entus. I am especially sorry to the coaching staff who put their trust in me. Recently, an ex-pro named Kim Bong-jun (Britney) said that he was practice player but cut from the team because of me. There was nothing I could say in response to that. He probably wasn't the only one. I am sorry for the suffering that people endured because of me.
Q: You said earlier that your reason for attending the Chinese tournament was the same as your reason for streaming on AfreecaTV. Could you elaborate on that?
A: I knew that people would want to know why I started streaming on Afreeca without any sufficient period of self-reflection. There are many reasons---some of which I cannot reveal because of privacy issues---so I will only talk about the reasons specific to myself. After I was convicted in court and permanently banned, I became sociophobic and afraid of meeting people. I could not sleep without the help of sleeping pills, which I took as a warning sign. I also needed to earn some money, but I didn't have the courage to try anything else. Streaming on Afreeca allowed me to earn money at home by myself.
Q: So your ultimate purpose was to earn money?
A: That's somewhat true today, but I did not think that I could make any money by streaming when I first started. At first, I wanted to stream without letting people know that it was me, but news spread through word of mouth until the stream became what it is today. I could stream everyday if I wanted to do so, but I only stream when I want to these days. I don't think that I can do this forever, so I want to find some other work even now. At first, it was hugely comforting to be able to chat with people on my stream. For about a year, I could not even bring myself to meet people outside, but streaming helped me overcome that, so I am glad that I made the decision to stream on Afreeca. It was a way to start communicating with other people again.
Q: You are famous for banning users from your channel if they mention any word even vaguely related to match-fixing or say something you don't want to hear. Can you really say that you are communicating with others this way?
A: People who don't watch my stream say this. I admit that I did do this for a brief period 1-2 years ago, but it has been floating around the Internet since then. I leave it alone, because it is a sign that people are still interested in me. Whether they like me or not, they are still viewers of my stream. I don't care what they say about me, but I cannot stand them insulting my parents. It generated a huge buzz when I tried to sue them for that. I will continue to take severe actions against those who do that.
Q: Some people say that Ma possess a "steel mentality".
A: Like other human beings, I don't like being insulted. I am only accepting it because there is nothing else that I could do.
Q: Do you have anything else you would like to say through this interview?
A: I would like apologize for sending such a huge shockwave to the eSports industry through the match-fixing scandal. I know that I've done a series of things that are viewed negatively by fans and those involved in eSports. I've repented much over time. I reiterate that I don't want the public's perception of me to change because of this interview. However, I do regret that I did not actively apologize earlier.
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers/drugabusers/dopers/whateverbadguys failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense bitterness toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense hatred toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
He was old enough to be responsible for his own actions. You don't learn morality at school. I agree that savior should have a second and third and fourth chance compared to murderers, but it shouldn't be in esports.
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense hatred toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
He was old enough to be responsible for his own actions. You don't learn morality at school. I agree that savior should have a second and third and fourth chance compared to murderers, but it shouldn't be in esports.
My point in bringing up murderers as a comparison was that he deserves a second chance at esports though. Maybe it's really cultural difference where the Chinese mindset is generally for second chances (except for officials that abuse their offices, or people who have already had their second chance, I guess), I don't really know, but here in Chinese forums the Chinese BW community are generally, if not overwhelmingly, supportive of him. (And maybe that's why the Chinese tournament invited him in the first place - his supposed "damage" to the BW scene in China would not have been comparable to even a fraction of the benefits that he would bring.)
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense hatred toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
He was old enough to be responsible for his own actions. You don't learn morality at school. I agree that savior should have a second and third and fourth chance compared to murderers, but it shouldn't be in esports.
My point in bringing up murderers as a comparison was that he deserves a second chance at esports though. Maybe it's really cultural difference where the Chinese mindset is generally for second chances (except for officials that abuse their offices, or people who have already had their second chance, I guess), I don't really know, but here in Chinese forums the Chinese BW community are generally, if not overwhelmingly, supportive of him. (And maybe that's why the Chinese tournament invited him in the first place - his supposed "damage" to the BW scene in China would not have been comparable to even a fraction of the benefits that he would bring.)
Well I guess it does depend heavily on the culture. I remember here in finland when our olympic ski team were caught in a doping scandal in 2001, it was just devastating and I couldn't forgive my former hero Mika Myllylä even in 2011 when he died. I don't speak for finnish people in general here. But some things are just sacred. Even murder I feel could be justified in some rare circumstances but doping and cheating in sports is just pure selfishness.
On December 07 2013 00:55 forumtext wrote: Fomos just did an interview with Savior, he apologize again for everything but still insist he did not fixed any game himself, he was merely a middle man. He is also confirmed that he is streaming these days for the money. Stork is gonna be so MAD .
He said he did not match fix his game vs Hyvaa. Anyone know the exact link?
You cant even trust him jesus christ, if you for a second believe he is going to be totally honest in a public interview then you might aswell start taking corrupt politicians word.
Saviors behaviour is on the other hand really old news, whats the point in further discussing it.
Translation from the original Korean is in the spoiler tag. Translator's commentary (TC) notes some items in which Savior directly contradicts the testimony of other match-fixers, his own testimony in trial, video recordings of what he said on his own stream, and hiya's on-stream comments. This translation is just to preempt a Chinese-to-English translation of a Korean-to-Chinese translation. The interview does not contain any bombshells. + Show Spoiler +
Exclusive Interview: Ma Jaeyoon (Savior) addresses the endless controversy surrounding him
A recent incident resulted in the Internet being flooded with comments about Ma Jaeyoon (Savior). Controversy erupted when it became known that Ma---who was permanently banned by KeSPA in 2010 for his role in the match-fixing scandal---competed in a Chinese Starcraft Brood War (henceforth S1) league.
As the most infamous man in eSports, Ma's participation was by itself enough to cause a huge shock. When it was reported that he had even won the tournament, sharp criticisms such as "He has no shame", "He destroyed S1 and has no conscience", "Does he love money that much", and more were posted one after another.
Fomos then attempted to contact Ma directly. He has frequently been a hot topic since the match-fixing scandal because of, among other things, his broadcasting activities on AfreecaTV and his lawsuits against online commenters. He has never made an official statement, but we wanted to find out his position on the various issues that are centered around him.
The interview with Ma was unexpectedly easy to arrange. We contacted him through Yoo Jinwoo (Beast)---a former practice player on the Hwasung team---and he accepted our interview request immediately. On December 5th, a few days after the controversy first arose, we met a coffee shop in the Gangnam area. According to him, this is the second interview that he has done with the press since the match-fixing scandal. We first asked about the facts relating to his participation in the Chinese tournament and then moved on to the topic of his past transgressions.
Q: How did you come to participate in the Chinese tournament? Did you know about the shock that it caused in Korea?
A: The Chinese side contacted me first via e-mail. We had some back-and-forth communication before I came to participate in the 2v2 tournament, as is already known. I knew that my participation would cause an uproar. The reason I decided to participate despite anticipating this reaction is the same as the reason that I am streaming on AfreecaTV. I will answer this question in more detail a little bit later in this interview.
Q: The Korea reactions are overwhelmingly negative in nature. What do you think about this?
A: It's inevitable. That's the way it has been until now, and will be in the future. I will have to withstand these critical opinions about me for many more years, perhaps for my entire life.
Q: Why did you go even though you knew that it would result in such a negative public response?
A: I made a very selfish decision to participate in the Chinese tournament. I knew that the fans and those involved in eSports would not like it. However, my current situation demands that I participate anyway. It is not as if I stream and play in tournaments because I want people to be mad at me.
Q: What happened on your trip to China?
A: I visited China back when I was a player (trans. note: on a pro team). I was surprised that the Chinese welcomed me nearly as much as they did back then. It made me wonder if it was okay for me to be welcomed thusly. However, during a session when the fans in attendance were allowed to do a Q-and-A with me, the host instructed the translator not to translate some questions. I asked about it later and found out that the fan had asked "How do you feel about hitting rock bottom after the match-fixing scandal in Korea?" It made me realized that the Chinese organizers and fans are informed about what I did in Korea.
TC: Perhaps this confirms that the earlier post about the Chinese organizer claiming ignorance about the scandal was a lie?
Q: Do you intend to participate in more Chinese tournaments.
A: As of right now, I am willing to go if they are willing to invite me. I know that other Korean players have attended Chinese tournaments in the past and are willing to do so again in the future. A tournament of this scale is held about once or twice a year; the rest are mostly online tournaments.
I asked the organizers, "How do you feel about the negative reaction in Korea because of my participation?" They replied that they want to continue supporting me. They went so far as to ask if there is anything they could do to improve my public image in Korea. I really couldn't give an answer to that question.
Q: As far as we know, you haven't done any interviews since news of the match-fixing scandal first broke. Why did you so readily accept our interview request?
A: I never avoided interviews; I just didn't have any opportunities for interviews. Fomos interviewed me right after the scandal first became known, but the interview was never published anywhere. It was the only interview that I did during what was a very difficult time for me. I was suspicious about why the interview never appeared anywhere, and also why no one contacted me again, but just thought that I should let it be. If I look back on it now, I think that doing nothing after that interview was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.
Fomos: Ma was under the false impression that the earlier interview that never appeared was with Fomos. The earlier interview was in fact with another media organization. Ma said that he has twice apologized, once on the web and once on his personal stream. He claims that Fomos interviewed him through his apology on his personal stream. However, at the time the scandal first became known, Fomos contacted Ma's mother to arrange an interview, but the interview was never realized because she suddenly broke off all contact. After we explained this to him, Ma admitted that he had confused Fomos with another media organization.
Q: What was the content of that earlier interview?
A: At that time, we did the interview in my hospital room. I met with two reporters with whom I was well-acquainted. I was hospitalized because of my knee, so I talked about my health, and I also apologized to the fans and those involved in eSports. I also talked about the things I saw, heard, and did during the match-fixing incident. After that, no one wanted to interview me no matter what I did, be it broadcasting on Afreeca or something else. If anyone requested an interview, what I am saying now would have come out much 1-3 years earlier.
Q: Regardless of that earlier interview, this is the first official interview, so we have to ask about the match-fixing scandal. You might feel uncomfortable about talking about the distant past.
A: It's okay because I don't have anything more to lose. There's nothing to hide. I don't think that this interview will change anyone's mind.
Q: First, is there anything unfair to you about what transpired as it relates to the match-fixing scandal?
A: I didn't personally fix any of my own games. I know that this particular aspect is not that important to people. Even people who know that I did not fix my own games believe that the things that I did actually do are even worse than fixing my own games. This is not that surprising if we consider the exceptional position I had in the community at that time. However, in the case of the game against Shin Daegun (hyvaa) people are convinced that I lost on purpose and that I just left no evidence.
TC: The game against hyvaa is the one that made Nal_Ra say that he wanted to see a slowed down replay. First, Hyvaa kills three drones in Savior's natural with one zergling. Hyvaa and Savior then engage in the decisive air battle near Savior's natural. Hyvaa has 2 scourge + 10 mutalisk on one gas production. Savior has 8 scourge and 8 mutalisk on two gas production. Savior seems to a-move his scourge and does not micro to avoid Hyvaa's scourge. People believe that Savior left no evidence because he was very careful about covering his tracks and also there were problems with obtaining evidence from online betting sites, which were mostly located overseas. Many of those sites also evaporated once the scandal became public. Movie said on his stream that Savior wrote a fake entry in his diary about how he wasn't playing well, and left it open where everyone could see it. The underlying premise is that Movie---who was on the same team---believes that Savior is lying. Of course, we don't know if he has extra information, so it is unclear what to make of it.
Q: Are you saying that you did not lose that game on purpose?
A: While my annual base salary was cut significantly, my contract had strong incentive payments, which made me want to win as many games as possible. From December on, I practiced for nearly three months on 4-5 hours of sleep per day without going out. That was the hardest I've practiced since I became a pro gamer. I was considering a February retirement, so I wanted to go out on a high note. However, even I admit that it was such a ridiculous game (vs hyvaa) so I am frustrated by the fact that there is nothing I can do to convince others that I am innocent in that case. Later, I even thought about just telling others that I did it since no one would believe anything else. Rather than feeling that it was unfair, I was upset about it.
TC: The part about incentives seems roughly correct. It's been written in some places (without source attribution) that Savior would receive about a $3000 bonus from the team for each win at that time.
Q: Why were you thinking about retirement?
A: It hurt my pride to be collecting a salary from the team without playing. However, I was losing every time I did get to play, so that made me want to retire.
Q: It shocked people why a player of Ma's caliber would need to do something like this.
A: The prosecutor in charge of the case also asked me the same question. He said that the paper trail showed that they were only able to trace only $2000 (USD) in my bank account from the match-fixing activities. At the time, I did not know that match-fixing was a bad thing and never imagined that it would become such a big deal. When I was first approached about the possibility of fixing my own games, I refused quite easily. As I was saying earlier, I was considering retirement anyways.
Q: And?
A: After getting the offer, I told Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin) over Battle.net about it. I told him that some hyung ("big bro") I knew had offered me $3000-5000 for losing a game intentionally. At that time, Youngsoo told me that he was going to be eliminated from the OSL Round of 16 even if he won all his games. After hearing this, I told Youngsoo to contact me if he was interested in match-fixing. Later, Youngsoo claimed that I suggested that he fix matches. Of course, it was my fault for saying things the way I did. It would have been better to simply pass on the contact information to Youngsoo and let him make the arrangements directly on his own without my involvement. However, the two parties did not know each other, while I knew both, so I acted as an intermediary to pass along payments. Both Youngsoo and I did not that we were doing something so bad, but we at least knew that this was something that should be kept a secret. However, Justin somehow found out about our conversation and contacted me. When I told Justin that I would not fix my own games, he asked me if I knew anyone who might be willing and I mentioned Kim Sung-gi (Darkelf). Jin Youngsoo and Kim Sung-gi are the only people to whom I passed on payments for match-fixing. Kim Sung-gi is the only one I recruited into match-fixing. You can confirm this in the judge's ruling.
TC: In the trial, Savior said that he tried to recruit both Much and Xellos in addition to Darkelf, but only Darkelf agreed. Hiya said that Savior asked him to fix matches. Since this was not mentioned in the trial, we can conjecture that perhaps there are more people Savior tried to recruit as well. Also, Savior says that he did not recruit Hwasin, but Hwasin's testimony in the trial directly contradicts this. Furthermore, Savior's own words above reveal that he did in fact recruit Hwasin. It's just wordplay; he didn't use the exact words, "I want you to fix matches". Beyond that, Savior has stated on his own stream that he tempted some players by telling them that he himself had fixed a couple of his own games and nothing bad happened. He claims that this is why so many people think that he fixed his own games: Because he lied that he had fixed his own games in order to make other players willing to fix their games! "If even Savior is doing it, then it must be okay." This video was floating around the web for a while and I have seen it myself. When he says that Darkelf is the only one he recruited, he's saying that Darkelf is the only one he successfully recruited. Just some wordplay. He is on record saying that he recruited others.
Q: A lot of people said that you betrayed Coach Cho, who raised you into a pro gamer.
A: After the Lunar New Year holiday weekend in February, I was supposed to return to the team dorms at 6pm. The coach called me and said that he was on his way to meet with KeSPA. He wanted to ask me one thing before he went. He asked me if I fixed matches. That honestly scared me, but I also did not think that things would become bigger, so I told the coach that I was not involved. He said okay and told me to return home. Following those instructions, I went home instead of going to the team dorms. I was suddenly overcome with fear and phoned Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin). I wanted to know if his coach at STX also knew about this, but he did not answer my calls or texts. Other than Jin Youngsoo (Hwasin) and Kim Sung-gi (Darkelf), I did not know who else had fixed matches and did not know how the betting system worked.
TC: Hwasin's interviews from way back once again directly contradict Savior's statement here. Both could be lying since both are criminals, even if Savior has been caught more often in public lies.
Q: Do you have anything to say to those guys?
TC: There is a screen capture of someone's summary of an interview with the prosecutor in charge of the case, who says that a player who likely is Savior (no names are named) was a broker of match-fixing rather than someone who fixed his own games.
A: Of course, I am sorry. Not just to the players, but also to the higher-ups at CJ Entus. I am especially sorry to the coaching staff who put their trust in me. Recently, an ex-pro named Kim Bong-jun (Britney) said that he was practice player but cut from the team because of me. There was nothing I could say in response to that. He probably wasn't the only one. I am sorry for the suffering that people endured because of me.
Q: You said earlier that your reason for attending the Chinese tournament was the same as your reason for streaming on AfreecaTV. Could you elaborate on that?
A: I knew that people would want to know why I started streaming on Afreeca without any sufficient period of self-reflection. There are many reasons---some of which I cannot reveal because of privacy issues---so I will only talk about the reasons specific to myself. After I was convicted in court and permanently banned, I became sociophobic and afraid of meeting people. I could not sleep without the help of sleeping pills, which I took as a warning sign. I also needed to earn some money, but I didn't have the courage to try anything else. Streaming on Afreeca allowed me to earn money at home by myself.
Q: So your ultimate purpose was to earn money?
A: That's somewhat true today, but I did not think that I could make any money by streaming when I first started. At first, I wanted to stream without letting people know that it was me, but news spread through word of mouth until the stream became what it is today. I could stream everyday if I wanted to do so, but I only stream when I want to these days. I don't think that I can do this forever, so I want to find some other work even now. At first, it was hugely comforting to be able to chat with people on my stream. For about a year, I could not even bring myself to meet people outside, but streaming helped me overcome that, so I am glad that I made the decision to stream on Afreeca. It was a way to start communicating with other people again.
Q: You are famous for banning users from your channel if they mention any word even vaguely related to match-fixing or say something you don't want to hear. Can you really say that you are communicating with others this way?
A: People who don't watch my stream say this. I admit that I did do this for a brief period 1-2 years ago, but it has been floating around the Internet since then. I leave it alone, because it is a sign that people are still interested in me. Whether they like me or not, they are still viewers of my stream. I don't care what they say about me, but I cannot stand them insulting my parents. It generated a huge buzz when I tried to sue them for that. I will continue to take severe actions against those who do that.
Q: Some people say that Ma possess a "steel mentality".
A: Like other human beings, I don't like being insulted. I am only accepting it because there is nothing else that I could do.
Q: Do you have anything else you would like to say through this interview?
A: I would like apologize for sending such a huge shockwave to the eSports industry through the match-fixing scandal. I know that I've done a series of things that are viewed negatively by fans and those involved in eSports. I've repented much over time. I reiterate that I don't want the public's perception of me to change because of this interview. However, I do regret that I did not actively apologize earlier.
thanks for the translation! I think you should make another post and have this in there otherwise it's going to get lost in here.
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense hatred toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
He was old enough to be responsible for his own actions. You don't learn morality at school. I agree that savior should have a second and third and fourth chance compared to murderers, but it shouldn't be in esports.
My point in bringing up murderers as a comparison was that he deserves a second chance at esports though. Maybe it's really cultural difference where the Chinese mindset is generally for second chances (except for officials that abuse their offices, or people who have already had their second chance, I guess), I don't really know, but here in Chinese forums the Chinese BW community are generally, if not overwhelmingly, supportive of him. (And maybe that's why the Chinese tournament invited him in the first place - his supposed "damage" to the BW scene in China would not have been comparable to even a fraction of the benefits that he would bring.)
Well I guess it does depend heavily on the culture. I remember here in finland when our olympic ski team were caught in a doping scandal in 2001, it was just devastating and I couldn't forgive my former hero Mika Myllylä even in 2011 when he died. I don't speak for finnish people in general here. But some things are just sacred. Even murder I feel could be justified in some rare circumstances but doping and cheating in sports is just pure selfishness.
The question you should be asking then, is why? I feel i_blod makes a good point. I think the matchfixing exposed a problem with the scene itself as he mentioned. The BW scene is crazy competitive and hard to get into, even as a practice partner. Imagine being on the a team(or b team etc...), practicing all day and not getting much besides a room to live with a couple other guys (bunk beds for ex) and getting food. You aren't getting much money to save up and you spend all your time looking at a computer screen and playing a game. Basically, I think this was the reason that a couple of them ended up matchfixing. They probably felt that once they eventually retire, it was fun and rewarding but there was nothing picked up from the job either. Most of them have no education to fall back on and while climbing back up the ladder and such is an option, it's not as easy one once you're already in your 20s. Anyways, my point was, the scene had some side problems which got exposed with the scandal. I'm actually surprised that no one thought about the possibility and had some backup measure or something. It's not like matchfixing hasn't happen in other sports before.
The notion that savior should be stopped from playing BW, by the makers of the game no less, on the basis that he match-fixed like five years ago is a fuckin joke, lol.
What a terrible interview. Every single word leaves an impression that he's full of shit. I can't understand how anybody can say that he deserves a second chance, everything he says is a lie and he doesn't even want to admit his mistakes after such a long time.
I am actually astonished at the amount of personal hatred being directed toward MJY...
I may not have been around for nearly as long as most of the guys here, but long enough to have followed the news of the matchfixing scandal back in the days when it was still in the headlines. Back then, I remember, the media wasn't all about throwing brown stuff at Ma Jae-Yoon, or indeed any of the players involved. Instead, they were all asking the same question that people naturally ask after such a huge scandal: Why?
Why did so many players, among them once legendary ones like MJY, do literally the worst thing they could have done in their capacity as a professional gamer?
It was not like MJY actually needed money; he earned more than some pro-gamers ever did during their entire career. And it was not like MJY needed fame either; there is no evidence that he ever cheated to win. Had he simply retired in, say 2009, he would probably have forever remained THE legendary Zerg. People did not understand. The fact that someone like MJY would become involved in such a scandal strongly hints at the fact that it is not simply the problem of several individuals. Indeed, by common logic, if someone like MJY could become corrupt, then anyone else could. There's bound to be something systematically wrong.
It was then that the true problem behind the BW scene in Korea, or indeed pro-gaming in general, became exposed to the public eyes: that the pro-gamers lacked any formal education that most other people of their age would have received. They were taught to become the best among pro-gamers; they were trained to play and win games. But they were not taught some basic lessons like morality, like how to interact with other people. In fact, a large portion of them have been school drop-outs. Think about it. They maybe adults, but adults who haven't been taught that they should be responsible as an adult. And unlike other sportsmen, they don't even live a "normal life"; they sat in a room facing a computer for years. It was after this scandal that the Korean pro-gaming scene became truly aware of the seriousness of this problem, with pro-gaming teams bringing in cultural teachers in addition to gaming coaches.
What I am saying is that it is really unfair to say they "tainted" the BW scene; they exposed a problem that existed long ago. If it were not these players who did it, there would eventually be someone else. And this, imho, is the true reason that a few matchfixers "scared sponsors away and changed public opinion for the worse" for pro-gaming while thousands, multitudes of cheaters/matchfixers/drugabusers/dopers/whateverbadguys failed to do the same for other sports. If we caught someone matchfixing in say, soccer, we all know that the matchfixers are at fault, not soccer itself; but the pro-gaming scene inexplicably played a part in contributing to the scandal. MJY was a convenient scapegoat because he was such a visible figure, and most of his ex-fans would direct their immense bitterness toward him anyway.
Now I am not saying that MJY should not be held responsible for what he did; he violated the very basic decency for a pro-gamer: to play fairly. For that, he should pay dearly. But chasing him everywhere to the point of not even allowing him to touch the game for life seems just... unthinkable to me. Come on people, we even give some murderers a second chance. Committing matchfixing as a pro-gamer is not in any way worse than committing murder as a human being, although probably not in any way better either; just like "showing remorse" does not mean having to give up their own lives for murderers, it should not mean having to give up gaming for a pro-gamer either.
I am disgusted by the fact that KeSPA is now trying to direct all the blame to MJY and even trying to prevent him from playing in a foreign event that they don't even have anything to do with now, but I don't ever recall seeing them acknowledge their part of responsibility.
You know, I would not mind giving second chance to someone like hwasin. But in savior case it's a no-brainer. He didn't cheat because he was naive and was manipulated, he was the one manipulating and inciting people to throw matches. And worst of all is his attitude so full of shit, compulsive lying and his lame "justification" excuses...
On December 03 2013 12:08 ExO_ wrote: Rekrul is the last person I expected to be sympathetic towards sAviOr @.@. Not to say that I'm not as well though (as indicated by my post xD)
i'm not really sympathetic, and i understand that people hate him with a passion
First of all, it was me who invited SAVIOR, there is none business with JATGIRL. And, JATGIRL himself, together with SCAN and MOIVE, they all did their best to prevent him from the competition. Because I did not play the StarCraft in 2007, and it was from the last year when I started to join the game, I don’t know what happened then.
Secondly, we welcome MORE Korean retired players come and visit China StarCraft League.
Thirdly, about the invitation of SAVIOR’s participating the competition this time, if KeSPA contact me, I will apologize. I am sure if there is enough communication, the similar incident won’t happen again.
Fourthly, I hope more Korean players including the players from StarCraftⅡwould come to communicate with Chinese players, and I like StarCraftⅡand League of Legends and so on.
Last but the most important, I hope KeSPA would have more communication with Chinese players. Misunderstandings come from non-communication. The platform can be SCNTV or me.
From: BIAO Dec. 4th 2013 (The sponsor of the BW Asia Open in Shanghai)
Contact me with e-mail: wjy@yuanyoufund.com or wjy-1126@hotmail.com
That Savior interview was actually quite nice to read. I took note of a few points from it:
1) He is obviously still lying about a few things, but it is not clear if those lies are things he believes to be true himself. It is actually quite common for people doing something dishonest and egoistic to tell themselves so many lies about their motives and the chain of events that they honestly believe the lies.
2) Savior had a much bigger influence on the entire matchfixing scandal than he wants to admit, but he atleast admits to have been key in starting it all.
3) An actual apology - Finally. This is one of the main reasons why people have been so hateful against Savior - the lack of any real apologies. Savior said that he was stupid and naive for not realising sooner how bad the things he was doing was, and mentions real people he feels like he has ruined the careers of. The apology could be all hot air, but the way he mentions Britney makes me doubt it.
4) Savior is mature enough to know that arguing with people who hate you would not accomplish anything.
5) He claims to have started streaming because he was too mentally devestated to try doing anything else. I could believe this - especially if he shows initiative to try getting an education or a new job in the future. It is not unreasonable to believe that the negative attention caused some kind of depression, and that streaming BW was the only thing he could think of.
We are still not left with the most positive picture of Savior, but at least he gives insight into his personal struggles, and how he is sorry for what he did. If only he would start showing more initiative to get on with his life, and leave BW to those that actually has a chance to rebuild the scene...
On December 02 2013 18:24 rabidch wrote: stupid. if china wants to invite savior then they can invite savior, even if i think he shouldnt be allowed to play, and blizzard shouldnt be touching this at all
It's blizzard game, not Chinese game. Blizzard had to allow and allowed chinese to host this.
EPT
Hope this fails. Long live Savior and hope he wins many other prizes in BW.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tIKhX.jpg)
