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BW General Discussion - Page 301

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ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
August 07 2019 18:24 GMT
#6001
imo, if you take a look at map pictures of all the original maps in SC/BW, you can see most of them don't end up working competitively because the game isn't THAT well balanced
http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml

and that's a valid criticism to make honestly
there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for
i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
August 07 2019 18:48 GMT
#6002
On August 08 2019 03:24 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo, if you take a look at map pictures of all the original maps in SC/BW, you can see most of them don't end up working competitively because the game isn't THAT well balanced
http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml

and that's a valid criticism to make honestly
there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for
i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated


Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Counc1l
Profile Joined April 2019
33 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 18:58:49
August 07 2019 18:58 GMT
#6003
Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense?
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States787 Posts
August 07 2019 18:58 GMT
#6004
On August 08 2019 03:48 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 03:24 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo, if you take a look at map pictures of all the original maps in SC/BW, you can see most of them don't end up working competitively because the game isn't THAT well balanced
http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml

and that's a valid criticism to make honestly
there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for
i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated


Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map.


It's funny you guys bring this map up now...
Love this map...
NAKR`flying
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10152 Posts
August 07 2019 18:59 GMT
#6005
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote:
Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense?

Why are we still talking about him? WE ARE FREE
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
August 07 2019 19:23 GMT
#6006
On August 08 2019 03:48 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 03:24 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo, if you take a look at map pictures of all the original maps in SC/BW, you can see most of them don't end up working competitively because the game isn't THAT well balanced
http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml

and that's a valid criticism to make honestly
there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for
i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated


Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map.

rofl i never noticed or tried that one
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25310 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 19:59:05
August 07 2019 19:58 GMT
#6007
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote:
Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense?

So essentially the BW equivalent of people who want turtle mech to be viable in SC2?

I’m not especially studied in the art of BW, as far as I can gather Queen use vs mech was something that came to prominence post-Kespa via ZerO especially.

These Goliath builds seem relatively new in the matchup and exist in part as a response to the above right? Is my pleb tier understanding. I’ve watched quite a few VoDs of a ‘turtle Zerg’ ZvP style where you stay compact and don’t open holes to get picked apart and just weather the storm until the Protoss is punched out. Not sure how good (or new) playing like that is but it seems a stylistic adjustment.

It’s pretty cool/borderline miraculous that probably the most studied competitive game ever made, that used to sustain a whole league of teams practicing non-stop haven’t totally figured out the game.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10152 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 20:27:06
August 07 2019 20:26 GMT
#6008
On August 08 2019 04:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote:
Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense?

So essentially the BW equivalent of people who want turtle mech to be viable in SC2?

I’m not especially studied in the art of BW, as far as I can gather Queen use vs mech was something that came to prominence post-Kespa via ZerO especially.

These Goliath builds seem relatively new in the matchup and exist in part as a response to the above right? Is my pleb tier understanding. I’ve watched quite a few VoDs of a ‘turtle Zerg’ ZvP style where you stay compact and don’t open holes to get picked apart and just weather the storm until the Protoss is punched out. Not sure how good (or new) playing like that is but it seems a stylistic adjustment.

It’s pretty cool/borderline miraculous that probably the most studied competitive game ever made, that used to sustain a whole league of teams practicing non-stop haven’t totally figured out the game.

Pretty sure Queens vs. Mech was already a thing in the late KeSPA era; it certainly was used infrequently in ZvP to great effect (also notably ZerO).

If the Goliath/Bio build is what I think it is, it's been around since at least the late 00's as well - "fake mech." What you do is you open 2 Fac Goliaths, which deny his Muta harass and prevent him from scouting your base, then you throw down 5+ Barracks and switch to Marine/Medic which hypothetically crush the Muta/Hydra composition from the overextended Zerg. If it's something else, I'd like to see a link!

And perhaps again, turtle ZvP was more or less the go-to around the time FS got popularized. It would be either Lurker contain or 4 base 4 gas turtle until Hive. And perhaps again, this may not be exactly what is going on.

So, this is all to say that compositions themselves have been tried and tested for years and thus nearly every imaginable combination had at one point been tested out. The devil is in the details, however. It is the minute changes that innovative players make that actually develop our understanding of the game and the various options, and it is a constant ebb and flow of someone coming up with something new and it surprising us, then someone else coming up with an answer that is then answered by something else, each step of the way borrowing from old ideas and refining and tailoring them.

TL;DR: The innovation, development, and evolution isn't usually in something as obvious as "unit choice," but in the "why," "when," "where," and "how" of getting to that unit choice IMO.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-09 18:58:51
August 07 2019 21:59 GMT
#6009
i do think there are many limitations to BW strategy meta due to what works and doesn't as far as openings go especially, ive said it before. . . its quite limiting imo. thats why all these maps don't work, and why maps need to be a certain way and then you kind of have to play them these few certain ways. Chess has quite a lot of openings, but even it is considered limited in that aspect by many compared to a game like go. Well starcraft sure has its limits, thats what i think nowadays. Dream would be that it would work and be playable on pretty much any kind of map, with many kinds of openings (and the nuances in between) playable too on each. Hard to balance right?? challenge for next gen RTS yo^^
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
August 08 2019 01:35 GMT
#6010
Queens vs mech and ultralisk + defiler drop over swaths of tanks was the way to counter mech in late KeSPA. Recent mech is a lot more aggressive, old mech was just having two control groups worth of tanks so that it was hard to attack even with dark swarm.

However, when I think of exciting Brood War I'm not really thinking of subtle changes in meta from season to season. You've got to think back to Boxer and Nal_rA for what epitomizes the excitement of Brood War. One off strategies designed to catch a opponent off guard, not because the strategy is going to change the meta, but because it is so novel that it causes the opponent to come up with a response on the spot. Shine's run to the finals would be a post-KeSPA example. We used to have lots of players like that.

Another type of player that makes BW interesting is one that has his own meta which other players can't emulate. Leta's wraiths vs Zerg was a good example. Kwanro ZvT. You hear people talking about Sharp's vultures these days. Mini's ZvP is supposed to be on a different level. Snow's Shuttle Reaver. Players where you know what you're gonna get, their opponent knows what they're going to get, and yet somehow they just keep making it work. They do something with their hero units that other players don't seem to be able to emulate. I used to really love Turn's approach to TvZ (which I think more or less turned into today's 1-1-1? Anyway very fast vessels).

And then obviously you have a few unstoppable giants when any match they're in is interesting because you just want to know if anyone can steal a match off of them, or you just like seeing top pros get crushed under a massive weight.

tldr; Go visit the Cool and Unusual StarCraft thread if you want to know what used to be the standard for interesting games. Obviously not every game can be like this, but the KeSPA era environment was very fertile grounds for creating them. You'd get at least a few a week back when they were playing proleague all the time.

I think StarCraft these days is still pretty good, I've really liked most of this ASL, but when there were so many more active players getting TV time every week, there was better representation of the different kinds of players and you could make sure to watch the ones you felt the highest affinity with. The whole Johnny Spike Timmy dynamic, I guess
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Arvendilin
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany1878 Posts
August 09 2019 04:38 GMT
#6011
Hey, I am trying to catch up with the best games of last year and since there is no thread about something like that I thought maybe I'd ask all of you in this thread!

Which games or game did you think were/was the best of 2018? I'd love to check them all out :D
My heroes: Jangbi, Bisu, Stork and BeSt for BW, Rain, Zest and Stats for SC2! Need a better Signature tbh...
FakeFin
Profile Joined December 2018
Germany392 Posts
August 09 2019 13:21 GMT
#6012
Asl 6 Finals Flash vs EffOrt was pretty nice
juvenal
Profile Joined July 2013
2448 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-11 19:44:02
August 11 2019 19:43 GMT
#6013
Anyone knows what's up with ShieldBattery?
Michael Probu
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10673 Posts
August 11 2019 20:15 GMT
#6014
On August 12 2019 04:43 juvenal wrote:
Anyone knows what's up with ShieldBattery?

I was wondering this as well, I suppose it isn't around anymore because of auto matchmaking.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4332 Posts
August 12 2019 06:53 GMT
#6015
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote:
Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense?

Ironically Dazeds posts about BWs meta were actually staler than bws meta.But he can still post on the offical battlenet forum with other quality posters like The100You.

His worst talking point was the playerbase was old because the meta was stale.Nothing to do with insanely high skill ceiling and new players losing their first 20 games in a row in crushing fashion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Arvendilin
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany1878 Posts
August 12 2019 16:59 GMT
#6016
OHh also I realized that the stream viewer thing doesn't seem to be working on Afreeca anymore, anybody know about a fix?
My heroes: Jangbi, Bisu, Stork and BeSt for BW, Rain, Zest and Stats for SC2! Need a better Signature tbh...
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States787 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-13 08:45:51
August 13 2019 08:34 GMT
#6017
Some Bisu v Larva games going now. Both streaming.

Edit - Bisu looking in pretty good shape.
NAKR`flying
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8099 Posts
August 15 2019 14:25 GMT
#6018
Action is streaming from a hospital bed right now? Is he OK?
Free Palestine
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10673 Posts
August 15 2019 17:26 GMT
#6019
On August 15 2019 23:25 Ideas wrote:
Action is streaming from a hospital bed right now? Is he OK?

Woah what? O_O
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8025 Posts
August 15 2019 19:06 GMT
#6020
HEYYY TL !!!!
What is this build for zergs against protoss????
Is it new ??
973 - it means the number of drones one must have on main , natural and 3rd
Look:
zero :

zero again:

bisu:

my boy JD:
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
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