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ProMeTheus112
France1521 Posts
http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml and that's a valid criticism to make honestly there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom11385 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:24 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imo, if you take a look at map pictures of all the original maps in SC/BW, you can see most of them don't end up working competitively because the game isn't THAT well balanced http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/bw.shtml and that's a valid criticism to make honestly there is just room for better really^^ but it's challenging, sure. that's what i'm looking out for i dont rly like the bashing on this forum, i think its too aggressively moderated Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map. | ||
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Counc1l
23 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States727 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:48 Qikz wrote: Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map. It's funny you guys bring this map up now... Love this map... | ||
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Jealous
7795 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote: Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense? Why are we still talking about him? WE ARE FREE | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France1521 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:48 Qikz wrote: Crystallis should honestly be in the next KSL. Amazing map. rofl i never noticed or tried that one | ||
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Wombat_NI
Northern Ireland12103 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote: Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense? So essentially the BW equivalent of people who want turtle mech to be viable in SC2? I’m not especially studied in the art of BW, as far as I can gather Queen use vs mech was something that came to prominence post-Kespa via ZerO especially. These Goliath builds seem relatively new in the matchup and exist in part as a response to the above right? Is my pleb tier understanding. I’ve watched quite a few VoDs of a ‘turtle Zerg’ ZvP style where you stay compact and don’t open holes to get picked apart and just weather the storm until the Protoss is punched out. Not sure how good (or new) playing like that is but it seems a stylistic adjustment. It’s pretty cool/borderline miraculous that probably the most studied competitive game ever made, that used to sustain a whole league of teams practicing non-stop haven’t totally figured out the game. | ||
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Jealous
7795 Posts
On August 08 2019 04:58 Wombat_NI wrote: So essentially the BW equivalent of people who want turtle mech to be viable in SC2? I’m not especially studied in the art of BW, as far as I can gather Queen use vs mech was something that came to prominence post-Kespa via ZerO especially. These Goliath builds seem relatively new in the matchup and exist in part as a response to the above right? Is my pleb tier understanding. I’ve watched quite a few VoDs of a ‘turtle Zerg’ ZvP style where you stay compact and don’t open holes to get picked apart and just weather the storm until the Protoss is punched out. Not sure how good (or new) playing like that is but it seems a stylistic adjustment. It’s pretty cool/borderline miraculous that probably the most studied competitive game ever made, that used to sustain a whole league of teams practicing non-stop haven’t totally figured out the game. Pretty sure Queens vs. Mech was already a thing in the late KeSPA era; it certainly was used infrequently in ZvP to great effect (also notably ZerO). If the Goliath/Bio build is what I think it is, it's been around since at least the late 00's as well - "fake mech." What you do is you open 2 Fac Goliaths, which deny his Muta harass and prevent him from scouting your base, then you throw down 5+ Barracks and switch to Marine/Medic which hypothetically crush the Muta/Hydra composition from the overextended Zerg. If it's something else, I'd like to see a link! And perhaps again, turtle ZvP was more or less the go-to around the time FS got popularized. It would be either Lurker contain or 4 base 4 gas turtle until Hive. And perhaps again, this may not be exactly what is going on. So, this is all to say that compositions themselves have been tried and tested for years and thus nearly every imaginable combination had at one point been tested out. The devil is in the details, however. It is the minute changes that innovative players make that actually develop our understanding of the game and the various options, and it is a constant ebb and flow of someone coming up with something new and it surprising us, then someone else coming up with an answer that is then answered by something else, each step of the way borrowing from old ideas and refining and tailoring them. TL;DR: The innovation, development, and evolution isn't usually in something as obvious as "unit choice," but in the "why," "when," "where," and "how" of getting to that unit choice IMO. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France1521 Posts
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Chef
10738 Posts
However, when I think of exciting Brood War I'm not really thinking of subtle changes in meta from season to season. You've got to think back to Boxer and Nal_rA for what epitomizes the excitement of Brood War. One off strategies designed to catch a opponent off guard, not because the strategy is going to change the meta, but because it is so novel that it causes the opponent to come up with a response on the spot. Shine's run to the finals would be a post-KeSPA example. We used to have lots of players like that. Another type of player that makes BW interesting is one that has his own meta which other players can't emulate. Leta's wraiths vs Zerg was a good example. Kwanro ZvT. You hear people talking about Sharp's vultures these days. Mini's ZvP is supposed to be on a different level. Snow's Shuttle Reaver. Players where you know what you're gonna get, their opponent knows what they're going to get, and yet somehow they just keep making it work. They do something with their hero units that other players don't seem to be able to emulate. I used to really love Turn's approach to TvZ (which I think more or less turned into today's 1-1-1? Anyway very fast vessels). And then obviously you have a few unstoppable giants when any match they're in is interesting because you just want to know if anyone can steal a match off of them, or you just like seeing top pros get crushed under a massive weight. tldr; Go visit the Cool and Unusual StarCraft thread if you want to know what used to be the standard for interesting games. Obviously not every game can be like this, but the KeSPA era environment was very fertile grounds for creating them. You'd get at least a few a week back when they were playing proleague all the time. I think StarCraft these days is still pretty good, I've really liked most of this ASL, but when there were so many more active players getting TV time every week, there was better representation of the different kinds of players and you could make sure to watch the ones you felt the highest affinity with. The whole Johnny Spike Timmy dynamic, I guess  | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1798 Posts
Which games or game did you think were/was the best of 2018? I'd love to check them all out :D | ||
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FakeFin
Germany123 Posts
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juvenal
2411 Posts
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GGzerG
United States9551 Posts
On August 12 2019 04:43 juvenal wrote: Anyone knows what's up with ShieldBattery? I was wondering this as well, I suppose it isn't around anymore because of auto matchmaking. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia3473 Posts
On August 08 2019 03:58 Counc1l wrote: Dazed's argument can be described using some examples: "I don't like that TvP is always vultures and tanks: or "I don't like that you can only go defiler in ZvT and people are a cult because they gawk at strategies that allow these comps to be achieved more efficiently:" It's pretty ridiculous because there are only so many unit combinations that exist in the game. Nevertheless, people have come up with viable strategies invovling mnm goliath tvz and mnm tank in tvp, mass queen vs mech even at the highest levels of play. I guess he wants to see mass wraith in TvP or feels bored because he wants to see engagements and unit compositions that make no sense? Ironically Dazeds posts about BWs meta were actually staler than bws meta.But he can still post on the offical battlenet forum with other quality posters like The100You. His worst talking point was the playerbase was old because the meta was stale.Nothing to do with insanely high skill ceiling and new players losing their first 20 games in a row in crushing fashion. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1798 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States727 Posts
Edit - Bisu looking in pretty good shape. | ||
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Ideas
United States7740 Posts
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GGzerG
United States9551 Posts
On August 15 2019 23:25 Ideas wrote: Action is streaming from a hospital bed right now? Is he OK? Woah what? O_O | ||
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prosatan
Romania4211 Posts
What is this build for zergs against protoss???? Is it new ?? 973 - it means the number of drones one must have on main , natural and 3rd Look: zero : zero again: bisu: my boy JD: | ||
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