Translator's note: this came from a Chinese article so the translations might be a bit off. The material is sensitive to a lot of us, but try to remember that alot of the rookies and rising stars who were involved in the process are humans who are capable of making mistakes as well as attempting to amend them. Keep an open mind while you read this interview.
It's been 3 years since the match mixing scandal, at the time many major news outlets reported on the event, and it caused a great ripple in the industry. Especially around the player nick named "Ma Bonjwa", and severely affect many people.
The astonishment did not come solely from Ma Jae Yoon, every player that was involved in the match mixing scandal came as a surprise to many. That included another team ace who had a community immage as a hard working player, who had gained alot of fans for his good looks "Hwasin". After deeply hurting the emotions of the fans, and leaving a lastly bad impact with teenage audiences, Hwasin was also punished by the law and removed permanently by Kespa from participation in esports, and faded from sight.
Faced with Hwasin's interview request, reporters were taken aback and uncertain of how to react. Why did he wait until now to do an interview, and what does he hope to achieve? But he answered "I want to apologize (for my crimes)", and always wanted to do so with an interview to apologize for the fans.
Q: What's the rationality behind your decision to accept this interview?
A: It's been three years since the match fixing scandals, now there are alot of fans who don't know me, and alot of people who don't want to hear me speak, but I still wanted to apologize once. I was very regretful and remorseful in the past, but I couldn't stand up (into the public) easily. Now I'm still in a very difficult state. Recently STX Soul won in the SPL. I really wanted to go to the live venue to cheer for them, but if I went, how would the team look like? So I couldn't appear at the venue, I just used my phone to send congratulatory messages. Even though this might seem like gloating, but in reality I'm deeply regretful inside. All of my youth and pre-20s was spent in the team, I still wish that there was a place there for me. Just thinking about this, I would think about all of the wrong things I've done in the past and feel more remorseful than before.
In December of 2009, Hwasin accepted over B.net the first suggestion from Ma Jae Hoon about match fixing, at the time Hwasin was already eliminated from the OSL Ro16, the last match which wasn't important he threw on purpose, and in the MSL Ro8 match against teammate KaL, he threw the first match. He recieved 3 million won for each match, with a total of 6 million won. Afterwards Ma Jae Hoon was sentenced to one year in jail, suspended for 2 years, and 120 hours of community service. Hwasin was confiscated the 6 million won earnings as well as fined an additional 6 million won and expelled by Kespa from participating in esports events.
Hwasin maintained communications with STX Soul's coach Park Jae Seok and other teammates after the matchfixing scandal. While he was in the army he would also write to the younger members in the team, and maintains a friend ship with SoO (STX player, not to be confused with SoO from SKT) who is the same age as him. But Hwasin was unable to personally witness STX winning in SPL, because he just couldn't do it.
Q: Tell us honestly, why (did you) agree to matchfixing back then?
A: First of all, everything I say now will come off as making excuses, but I still have to say it, I was in a very difficult position emotionally back then. There were bad things that happened at home, even though I had a salary, I didn't make much money. Every day was becoming more difficult than the last, suddenly one day Ma Jae Hoon gave me this suggestion. At the time I haven't even heard of the term "matchfixing" (referring to the additional game in OSL where the result didn't matter for hwasin who was already 0-2 in the group, YARNC would have been out of the tournament if hwasin won, but he lost in the tie breakers any ways. reference), so I had no idea what it meant, and Ma Jae Hoon was a very influential persona mong professional players, and I thought that since it was an unimportant match, and I could make money even though I lose, I agreed easily.
Q: But agreeing to something like this was obviously wrong?
A: Yes, I was so stupid and naive. Regardless it was my own choice. At the time I never thought I was match fixing, and talking with each other I never thought that it was such a bad thing, but going into the matches I did purposefully throw a match, and I felt really bad. That's where the guilt kicked in, after that match (OSL) ended I thought that I couldn't ever do this again. And after wards when Ma Jae Hoon came to me to give me the money I shouldn't have taken it.
Q: Did something like this happen again?
A: After that first one ended, Ma Jae Hoon came to find me and told me the opponent's opener. reference Usually it's often possible for openings to get leaked during practice before a televised match happened, so I didn't think of much of it. But that time even knowing the opponenet's opener I still lost. Afterwards it became a rumor that I won alot of money from that match. The weird thing is that I actually didn't do anything wrong this time, but I still felt really bad, I thought that I was too naive and had to make up for my losses. So I lost a map to my teammate Kalreference.
After the second matchfixing incident, Hwasin who was 21 was seen after the match ended to be visibly shaking as he walked out of the booth after the game ended. He couldn't look at the eyes of the fans, and was very scared to see any of the employees working at the station. He thought that it would have been terrible if he continued, so after wards he rejected all plans from not only Ma Jae Hoon but also any other players to matchfix.
Q: Did you talk to Ma Jae Hoon after the matchfixing scandal?
A: Initially I did try to contact him, but it was his mom that picked up the phone. He refused to talk to me. After that he refused to talk to me. So I was never in contact with him again. Afterwards Ma Jae Hoon rejected some suspicions on his part in court, while I pleaded guilty to them on my side, at the time I didn't see Ma Jae Hoon either. All the fans saw it, at the time I didn't know where to look and was in alot of pain. I really wanted to die.
Q: Not only did you have to return all the earnings, you were fined and removed from Esports
A: I was a professional player for 7 years, yet I ended up with my name in ruins, it was too cruel. And I felt so sorry for all the people that trusted me, my family, teammates, and all the related personnel and fans.
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
Q: Since Junior High school you were involved completely in Starcraft, how did you live leaving the industry like that?
A: After the incident happened, I went back to my old home for 6 months. I wasn't able to go anywhere on an light heart. I felt that every where people would notice who I was and insult me. So I went everywhere with a cap on, that period was very painful. I lived through it in self-loathing and regret.
Q: And how did you walk away from that?
A: My family gave me alot of consoling, and alot of fans even gave me some encouragements even though they were very disappointed with me. I was so moved that didn't know how to respond. And alot of people who lived far away from me would call me and tell me good things, the coach and teammates didn't blame me but instead were very protective and worrying for me. So I slowly walked away from that rut.
Q: Then you moved to the military service, it wasn't that painful in the army right?
A: Actually quite the opposite. In boot camp since everyone was around the same age, everybody was aware of the matchfixing. Not only the seniors but even the officers would interrogate me and discipline me. Ofcourse there were some people who liked me as a person, they were the ones who got me through it. I tried to see it as that my life in the military was as difficult as everyone else's, and spent alot of time thinking. Why did I do this, I asked myself a thousand times "why".
Q: Now you realize what a bad thing match fixing was?
A: I knew immediately after the scandal was revealed. I was a professional player, and alot of fans supported me, and look at what I did to them. Even now I'm thinking about these things. Now not only in esports, but in other professional sports there are alot of match fixing and scandals, so everyone knows what a terrible thing it is to do. But I don't know if there are still any suspicions of match fixing (SC2), I hope that I can educate the younger players and tell them what a bad thing it is.
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult.
Q: After retiring, what did you do?
A: I did everything after retiring. I even went to the hiring boards in labour markets, I did manual labour, worked in delivery, and laboured in some net-cafes, I also tried to work in a coffee shop as a cashier and made coffee. I really want to open a coffee shop, one where you make the coffee completely manually, even if it's very small. In that process to find a direction I met an executive in a company, and started working as a secretary. Now I try to learn from many different types of people that I meet.
Q: What about the future? Anything else you want to say?
A: I thought I was forgotten, but after 3 years, there are still alot of people who try to contact me, it feels amazing. And alot of fans try to encourage me through mini homepy and email, I'm unable to respond to them all, so I wanted to use an interview to thank all of them. Even though I still can't explain myself in detail, it's important to me now to do things that I don't regret. Even though I did alot of things that hurt others, now I still walk on the street and get noticed by people, some of them call out to me, that makes me happy. Some people ask me about the match fixing and others give me support, I want to show them that Hwasin is no longer the progamer Hwasin, but just a normal person who is now doing well. And everything (that I do) will be honest and concrete.
Out of all the players caught, seeing Hwasin's name really surprised me. Dude sounds sad. Judging from this interview though, looks like he got a good head on his shoulders. GL to him.
Thank you for the translation! If I understand it correctly, he match fixed 2 games, one that didn't matter and another to his teammate Kal? It's still pretty sad that he did it though it doesn't seem like he saw it that way at first. Hope that eventually BW rises again better than ever and his mistake gets forgotten. He seems to have worked through it, realized just how bad it was and apologized to his supporters. Let's hope he gets forgiven in due time.
On August 23 2013 08:36 BigFan wrote: Thank you for the translation! If I understand it correctly, he match fixed 2 games, one that didn't matter and another to his teammate Kal? It's still pretty sad that he did it though it doesn't seem like he saw it that way at first. Hope that eventually BW rises again better than ever and his mistake gets forgotten. He seems to have worked through it, realized just how bad it was and apologized to his supporters. Let's hope he gets forgiven in due time.
Some might argue that losing the OSL match gave YARNC the chance to qualify from tie breakers (which was probably one of the reasons why he was asked to matchfix seeing as how YARNC is involved in match fixing) but YARNC didn't qualify anyways.
On August 23 2013 08:36 BigFan wrote: Thank you for the translation! If I understand it correctly, he match fixed 2 games, one that didn't matter and another to his teammate Kal? It's still pretty sad that he did it though it doesn't seem like he saw it that way at first. Hope that eventually BW rises again better than ever and his mistake gets forgotten. He seems to have worked through it, realized just how bad it was and apologized to his supporters. Let's hope he gets forgiven in due time.
Some might argue that losing the OSL match gave YARNC the chance to qualify from tie breakers (which was probably one of the reasons why he was asked to matchfix seeing as how YARNC is involved in match fixing) but YARNC didn't qualify anyways.
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult.
Its been so long; I'd almost forgotten about all of this. Shame on me Sucks that the players like Hwasin were dragging into the scandal but mistakes are made and meant to be learned from
I feel sorry for him. I used to like him a lot. I remember screaming and running around my house jubilating after he won that epic underdog game with Bisu (on Outsider).
Korean punishments are pretty brutal. Kid made a mistake. Mind you, its a big one... but still he was just a kid. Shame that this is going to follow him for the rest of his life.
i wish you the best on a personal level Hwasin and don't bear grudge against you. Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
I was never able to be as consequentialist about the scenario as many others have been. Feel pretty bad for hwasin and hope he's able to find his own path in life.
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you."Regardless of whether this is true, it was because of my instantaneous error and personal ignorance that caused these accusations, they make me feel very difficult.
:[
Yeah that quote had a huge impact on me out of this interview, that feeling must have been terrible when he heard that.
On August 23 2013 10:37 krndandaman wrote: he seems truly remorseful. hope he leads a good life from now on. savior seems more and more evil the more I hear about him...
ya. Went from someone who played a role to the evil mastermind :O
It's sad to hear his military life was tough on him too. 21 and everyone being so mean to you, really a rough spot to be in. It's good that he has made improvements and is being earnest now.
Does anyone know if the online betting companies that approached these players about throwing their matches for money get punished? I know the players have, but what about these online betting companies that facilitated it?
On August 23 2013 11:05 itsjustatank wrote: on today of all days, he can go cry me a river
where did that come from, because this interview could have happened like any time in the past weeks >_>
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you.
this is where im coming from. his crying and affected remorse about how his life has gone so poorly since then garners zero sympathy from me
I hope all matchfixing players will come out like this someday and tell us how fucked up their lives are. I hope they are really fucked up. Hwasin has done his part I guess. The part where he couldnt come to the stadium, got despised in the army or worked manual labor are really hard
I respect Hwasin. We have all failed before, and likely will fail again. Rather than someone to be reviled, I will remember Hwasin for what he did the past, and what he is doing now to be a better person. I don't hold it against anyone hasn't forgiven him, but consider him the next time you fail.
On August 23 2013 11:37 Arceus wrote: I hope all matchfixing players will come out like this someday and tell us how fucked up their lives are. I hope they are really fucked up. Hwasin has done his part I guess. The part where he couldnt come to the stadium, got despised in the army or worked manual labor are really hard
are you seriously ? you want a guy to end his life becose he threw a couple of games ?
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you.
this is where im coming from. his crying and affected remorse about how his life has gone so poorly since then garners zero sympathy from me
I don't think he was looking for sympathy, he's looking for empathy and understanding. What would you rather him do when asked a question like that? Lie and say "Everything made me feel terrible" or "Nothing because I deserved it all" so the people reading the interview who wish terrible things upon others would get a sense of twisted satisfaction from it? Give me a break. If you don't believe in redemption and reconciliation then humanity is doomed because nobody goes through life with out making some major mistakes either accidentally or in ignorance.
Q: In those difficult times, what words made you feel the worst?
A: There are no BW leagues now, even today it just doesn't feel real to me. But the words that make me feel the worst are "The ball that was passed down by so many seniors was lost in an instant in the hands of people like you.
this is where im coming from. his crying and affected remorse about how his life has gone so poorly since then garners zero sympathy from me
I have a feeling that something was lost in translation. I doubt anyone would make such a snide remark.
I never liked the Red Sniper and I do find it funny that this comes up now. If there is one thing I'm a good judge of it's character and this guy always rubbed me the wrong way long before the special event where there was arguably collusion as well. Anyway, we've been over this so probably doesn't need to be brought up again.
This was a tough read, but I'm glad it got translated. Hard to mediate between my disappointment and resentment at people involved in the scandal and the associated damage it did to the game, and the sympathy that comes with seeing a person for whom one singular mistake defines a large part of their life.
I see that he doesn't have the 'cool guy' approach to this situation in life, but i can understand how he would want to formally apologize and address things.
It's all completely understandable, but unnecessary. If you want to be remembered for your finer and more positive points, keep those people who believe in you close. I really do not hope that he thinks an apology will simply swing heads his way, but i'm glad he understands that the issue was created by his own actions.
Recently STX Soul won in the SPL. I really wanted to go to the live venue to cheer for them, but if I went, how would the team look like? So I couldn't appear at the venue, I just used my phone to send congratulatory messages. Even though this might seem like gloating, but in reality I'm deeply regretful inside.
I guess that's the right translation but it's a bit odd that anyone would think he'd be "gloating" about his team winning when he was not at all a part of their team during the victory (not even as a b/c-teamer that didn't play), so as a person with no claim to the glory, would anyone really think he came across that way?
On August 23 2013 12:20 itsjustatank wrote: I'd rather him go away and never surface again.
I'd rather you grow some empathic ability for someone who certainly has suffered tremendously because of his actions. Sure he was part of those who took the esports purity, but that wasn't going to last anyway. Where there is betting, there is matchfixing, and most people are by nature corruptable.
Damn, feel bad for him after reading that. Also, every time I start to think "maybe it's time to forgive savior" it comes out how much of a ringleader and intimidator he was behind the scenes (allegedly, none of us know 100% of course). If I'm reading this correctly, hwasin is saying that savior told him an opening, but he still lost, and then he felt pressured to drop the game to Kal to make up for it. He didn't realize how big of a mistake he made until he'd done it and couldn't take it back. I feel bad for him regardless, he seems sincere.
I hope hwasin gets past this now that he's paid his dues, but sadly I think he'll carry it with him for a long time.
Bit by it, we have to learn to forgive. Right now honestly, only Savior is, to my mind, the unforgivable - not because he was the mastermind, but because he was unrepentant (and even pushed his coach to lie/stand up for him)
Thats why we carry our mistakes, to learn from them. I made many mistakes in my life, but only those that costed me something very important to me teached me an important lesson.
Thats why id like to have a time machine, but life almost never gives you second chances.
I feel sorry for him. He is smart and I'm sure he will be fine. But at that age everybody makes mistakes. It happened that his mistakes were bigger. That was because he worked hard and became part of a pro-team.
As children we are taught to not steal, to not lie and stuff like that. Unfortunately we are not told explicitly how serious things like match fixing are.
Recently STX Soul won in the SPL. I really wanted to go to the live venue to cheer for them, but if I went, how would the team look like? So I couldn't appear at the venue, I just used my phone to send congratulatory messages. Even though this might seem like gloating, but in reality I'm deeply regretful inside.
I guess that's the right translation but it's a bit odd that anyone would think he'd be "gloating" about his team winning when he was not at all a part of their team during the victory (not even as a b/c-teamer that didn't play), so as a person with no claim to the glory, would anyone really think he came across that way?
I interpreted more like he'd just be disgracing the team.
On August 23 2013 16:28 Levistus wrote: Guys can you tell me what his 2nd match fixing game was? Was it against Luxury when Savior told him Luxury's opening or was it against Kal?
On August 23 2013 15:24 shin_toss wrote: Random question: If you got banned by Kespa from Professional Starcraft, Can you still play independently in Non-Korean competitions?
I think so; if the competitions are unrelated to kespa, that is. I doubt an eventual return would be worthwhile due to potential drama, though. (or maybe that's too sc2-esque thinking)
Poor kid. I always felt semi sorry for the ones caught in the scandal. Training in Korea is brutal and the pressure vs the reward is terrible.
Q: Tell us honestly, why (did you) agree to matchfixing back then?
A: First of all, everything I say now will come off as making excuses, but I still have to say it, I was in a very difficult position emotionally back then. There were bad things that happened at home, even though I had a salary, I didn't make much money. Every day was becoming more difficult than the last, suddenly one day Ma Jae Hoon gave me this suggestion
Sounds like he didn't have money and his family needed it. I was never a fan of Hwasin, I felt more sorry that Upmagic was involved but this is really sad.
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him.
He was possibly fearful for things Savior might say in court, but this sounds so bad. Savior comes across as this shady mobster.
On August 23 2013 16:28 Levistus wrote: Guys can you tell me what his 2nd match fixing game was? Was it against Luxury when Savior told him Luxury's opening or was it against Kal?
I think it was him vs Leta?
Q: Did something like this happen again?
A: After that first one ended, Ma Jae Hoon came to find me and told me the opponent's opener. reference Usually it's often possible for openings to get leaked during practice before a televised match happened, so I didn't think of much of it. But that time even knowing the opponenet's opener I still lost. Afterwards it became a rumor that I won alot of money from that match. The weird thing is that I actually didn't do anything wrong this time, but I still felt really bad, I thought that I was too naive and had to make up for my losses. So I lost a map to my teammate (P)Kal reference.
I mean which one among these two. Cause he said he still lost even after knowing Luxury's opening build. I'm actually confused now that I've watched the video and he won. Wrong video maybe?
Being a pro gamer is very unfair. You invest a lot of time and the chances to make money are S-L-I-M. The only reason these guys played BW was for the love of the game. That being said... Hwasin... you gave 7 years of your life to give us the most entertaining sport I have ever seen. To this day NOTHING comes close to the greatness of BW SPL, OSL and MSL. We got amazing entertainment - for free - while B-teamers, practice partners and probably some A-teamers were giving away their life. B-teamers and practice partners did it all without a salary, I'm pretty sure. Where are these lesser known gamers today - that built the leagues we so love? They are trying to catch up. Going to work, studying, trying to survive. We assume that KeSPA and the teams took care of them - but we all know that sleeping 4 in a room and playing video games all day - as a young kid - without a whole lot of money is unfair. And once you leave the team house, you're on your own again.
You were amazing at what you did. You were gods to us. And you DESERVED more than what you got. And you deserve more than what you get from fans now that we don't see you as much. I wish I could hear more about ex-BW players from that time. Are you guys adapting to adulthood alright?
You gave your life for BW... STX Hwasin... without your dedication who knows where STX would be today. 7 years.... 4-5 of them preparing for SPL/OSL/MSL/GSL.... Nothing but love for you Hwasin. Don't even worry about it.
On August 23 2013 17:11 Emon_ wrote: Being a pro gamer is very unfair. You invest a lot of time and the chances to make money are S-L-I-M. The only reason these guys played BW was for the love of the game. That being said... Hwasin... you gave 7 years of your life to give us the most entertaining sport I have ever seen. To this day NOTHING comes close to the greatness of BW SPL, OSL and MSL. We got amazing entertainment - for free - while B-teamers, practice partners and probably some A-teamers were giving away their life. B-teamers and practice partners did it all without a salary, I'm pretty sure. Where are these lesser known gamers today - that built the leagues we so love? They are trying to catch up. Going to work, studying, trying to survive. We assume that KeSPA and the teams took care of them - but we all know that sleeping 4 in a room and playing video games all day - as a young kid - without a whole lot of money is unfair. And once you leave the team house, you're on your own again.
You were amazing at what you did. You were gods to us. And you DESERVED more than what you got. And you deserve more than what you get from fans now that we don't see you as much. I wish I could hear more about ex-BW players from that time. Are you guys adapting to adulthood alright?
You gave your life for BW... STX Hwasin... without your dedication who knows where STX would be today. 7 years.... 4-5 of them preparing for SPL/OSL/MSL/GSL.... Nothing but love for you Hwasin. Don't even worry about it.
Well said. The part about being harassed by seniors and officers in the army was particularly horrible to read.
Up to this point I've always reacted the same way itsjustatank is reacting and had zero sympathy for the matchfixers, but reading this was really heartbreaking. Hwasin was the player who shocked me the most when the scandal came out and I still don't see him in as bad a light as the other players. I wish him the best for the future.
This is so ridiculous, international sport is over head and ears in matchfixing and dope scandals. How many sportsmen went to army or exiled themselves in manual labor? How many of them actually admitted it and how much time did it actually take?
I like how we are on tl gather and talk morality and ethics over this young man whose life was basically shi* since those two-three games he rigged.
After reading the thread I feel like somebody's wounded feelings of sportsmanship and fair play must at last be redeemed. May I congratulate you!
You know, I'd better watch 100 rigged games by him than read now this kind of interview. With all my heart, I refuse to understand how can a normal person castigate a kid for things that grown up professionals do every god damn day.
On August 23 2013 21:34 myminerals wrote: This is so ridiculous, international sport is over head and ears in matchfixing and dope scandals. How many sportsmen went to army or exiled themselves in manual labor? How many of them actually admitted it and how much time did it actually take?
I like how we are on tl gather and talk morality and ethics over this young man whose life was basically shi* since those two-three games he rigged.
After reading the thread I feel like somebody's wounded feelings of sportsmanship and fair play must at last be redeemed. May I congratulate you!
You know, I'd better watch 100 rigged games by him than read now this kind of interview. With all my heart, I refuse to understand how can a normal person castigate a kid for things that grown up professionals do every god damn day.
be well Red Sniper
Because most people don't know for sure how normal match fixing is. That's why it's a big scandal if some players get caught. I agree though, everyone makes mistakes and that's especially true when you're young. I'm happy to hear he has landed on his feet and is happy.
The fact that he was a kid or that adults do the same thing doesn't make the act any more condonable. Act and actor are separate. The act of match-fixing is forever intolerable. Hwasin himself, however, I will forgive. glhf
sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
I shat on him the least of all the matchfixers and while what he did will still remain unforgiven, I hope that he moves forward and becomes a better person.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
Agreed. People prefer to filter out this crucial bit of information for some reason.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
I think you underestimate how big the scandal was for the probably the biggest game in the history of e-sports for Korea. I don't think many people stopped watching.. but sponsors man.. sponsors got turned off by this big time.
Brood War's decline was becoming really noticeable around the time of NATE MSL (2009) when you could see that MBCGame was having some trouble with getting views for its tournaments. It was probably noticeable before that but that's when I began noticing a decline. It caught me off guard since 2 years before NATE MSL, the scene was in full swing.
EDIT: You could probably see the trend with MBCGame's sponsors after GOMTV.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
You know they were on professional teams right? Ones that paid them money to play? Like, play for real?
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Presumably the "good at something" part you're talking about is losing matches? What does that even mean? Surely they couldn't have been that good seeing they got caught, and then banned.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
I think you underestimate how big the scandal was for the probably the biggest game in the history of e-sports for Korea. I don't think many people stopped watching.. but sponsors man.. sponsors got turned off by this big time.
Yeah good point. I would have thought the sponsors would have just been interested in exposure and audience numbers, but being associated with cheats if you're a team or league sponsor can't be something you want.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
judging by your response above, I think you understand now
The teams folding is a sign of the decline. Whether the match-fixing was a primary cause or not isn't clear.
Edit: eSTRO is the only team you could make a strong argument for, as it happened within months (despite estro commenting they'd been wanting to sell for some time - so one could actually infer that means more than 3 months).
In MBC's case they switched from a gaming channel to a music channel. And along with WeMade and Oz they disbanded 1 year and 3 months later. And ACE sited the rise of smartphones etc which John went into more detail explaining in the post you linked (2 years and 2 months after the scandal). It's not like all the teams folded instantly or that audience numbers hadn't already been declining.
Whether this was all predestined or whether match-fixing destroyed broodwar overnight is completely debatable and subjective.
well the reactions on fomos were mixed - still it seems like that most of korean people regard hwasin as honest guy who did stupid thing.
Imo it is a shame that all these matchfixing scandal happend, but what is the use of blaming people -_- ; at least hwasin did proper apology and he shall move on
On August 23 2013 21:34 myminerals wrote: This is so ridiculous, international sport is over head and ears in matchfixing and dope scandals. How many sportsmen went to army or exiled themselves in manual labor? How many of them actually admitted it and how much time did it actually take?
Every man in South Korea has mandatory army service so....every single player who did mach fixing? Hell, even the behind the scenes match fixers were probably in the army.
It feels to me like people are trying a bit too hard to make Savior into the big bad guy of the match fixing. No matter how much he did, in the end each and every one of the players decided for themselves to fix matches.
On August 23 2013 21:34 myminerals wrote: This is so ridiculous, international sport is over head and ears in matchfixing and dope scandals. How many sportsmen went to army or exiled themselves in manual labor? How many of them actually admitted it and how much time did it actually take?
Every man in South Korea has mandatory army service so....every single player who did mach fixing? Hell, even the behind the scenes match fixers were probably in the army.
It feels to me like people are trying a bit too hard to make Savior into the big bad guy of the match fixing. No matter how much he did, in the end each and every one of the players decided for themselves to fix matches.
Dude, I don't want to hate Savior, I loved watching the Maestro back in the day. It's just that every other player hints at him being the ringleader, and using his status as superstar bonjwa to coerce people into doing it. Plus, he's not exactly repentant. Like I said before, no one knows for sure what exactly happened behind the scenes, but it seems like everything points to Savior playing a large role in it.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin seems to keep doing fine as I heard fan girls still follow him into supermarkets, Savior still tries hard to stay out of the picture of his model girlfriend's stream so at least it has some kind of happy end for these guys...
I don't agree with people who believe that broodwar's decline was linked with the matchfixing scandal. It was declining already. I doubt the match-fixing did much at all. As shown by the support in this thread, and as witnessed by the fact Hwasin still has well-wishers. And that's just on a forgiveness level. Did people really stop watching professional broodwar because a few players were selfish for a small period of time? I'd be surprised.
judging by your response above, I think you understand now
I can't fully comment on whether the scandal played a role in the decline of BW but I found the part about smartphones and SNS playing a role very interesting and could explain part of the decline:
On July 23 2012 11:11 JunkkaGom wrote: Let me explain the matter with smartphones and SNS. There has been numerous articles about this recently in Korea.
Back in 90's and 2000's the trend was to enjoy gaming together. Together I mean as going to PC bang and play with friends side by side. My generation is the generation that went to arcade and played console together with friends.
The trend now is much more individual. Now every person has their own PC and smartphones. Because of internet and various appliances, one can be connected with others without actually physically being together.
The trend is also clear in PCbangs, which originally started out as a place to play game 'together' with others. In my days we went to Pcbang after school and played team game of BW or Counter Strike, etc. Now the game is more diverse. You see more and more people who come alone and play game of their own taste. Because of better technology more people play game at their home. It is no longer a neccesity to play and enjoy same game as others as you can still be part of the 'gang' and feel you belong somewhere through SNS and smartphone. Gaming is no longer considered group activity but rather an individual hobby.
Will people still go to PC bang and play games with friends? Sure, but they can also stay home and meet them on internet. Will people still go to gaming event to watch pro gamers play? Sure, but they can also stay home and watch on internet, while chatting with friends. Enjoying game as being part of physical group is no longer the big thing.
This is the reason why people(or so these articles claim) that while eSports will definitely grow it will be difficult to see a single game dominating entire population and creating the phenomenon BW did. The scene needs to evolve to meet the demand of viewers that are becoming more and more diverse. One can no longer make huge investment in single game and expect great success as easily as before.
On August 23 2013 21:57 itsdaniel wrote: sad to see so many people being pro hwasin...even though he was a great player and i still think about him sometimes, i think that the punishment should have been even harder. It is unknown what would have happened to the SC scene without the scandal...
Hwasin was not the instigator, was under some amount of pressure, and seems remorseful.
Most of what happened would still have happened even if Hwasin personally did not match-fix.
Thanks for translation. What a sad situation all around. Part of me feels like the punishment was too great for a stupid youthful mistake. 7 years of work down the drain, exile, and your name ruined is pretty harsh.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
You know they were on professional teams right? Ones that paid them money to play? Like, play for real?
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Presumably the "good at something" part you're talking about is losing matches? What does that even mean? Surely they couldn't have been that good seeing they got caught, and then banned.
I`ll not gonna argue whit anyone , let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT ! You need to have courage to do this , and for me this is the most important , then stand in front of everybody and say "YES I DO THAT". Maybe is way wrong in your eyes , but i can understand it.I think most of us here would do that , mostly whit no regrets.That is the other side of the coin , i`m not old but i lived enough to understand that if u get a chance u need to take it.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
idiot radar
I`ll not gonna insult anyone here , i explain why i said that.
, let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT !
Isn't that like a justification for any money related crime ever? From robbing a house to white collar bank defrauding? If you're smart enough, just do it.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
You know they were on professional teams right? Ones that paid them money to play? Like, play for real?
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Presumably the "good at something" part you're talking about is losing matches? What does that even mean? Surely they couldn't have been that good seeing they got caught, and then banned.
I`ll not gonna argue whit anyone , let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT ! You need to have courage to do this , and for me this is the most important , then stand in front of everybody and say "YES I DO THAT". Maybe is way wrong in your eyes , but i can understand it.I think most of us here would do that , mostly whit no regrets.That is the other side of the coin , i`m not old but i lived enough to understand that if u get a chance u need to take it.
, let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT !
Isn't that like a justification for any money related crime ever? From robbing a house to white collar bank defrauding? If you're smart enough, just do it.
I'm sure he means doing that provided you aren't harming anyone(physically and not gambling I guess).
Yes it is , but why we need to judge anyone ? Yes if it`s necessary steal and live another day.I was poor ones.I had no one to support me and still i was trying to help myself and my family.I saw possibility and i grab it , never thinking about the consequences just doing what i have to do.We don`t know the whole story , and we should not judge.
Well I hope you are never in the financial sector and in charge of my money. I think people willing to give Hwasin a fair shake agian would come more from the perspective of 'he was young' or maybe 'second chance.' But I hope not many would dismiss it outright because the ends justify the means and therefore we should never judge any person's actions.
Everyone deserves a second chance provided they have the vision and wisdom to recognise what they've done wrong and do what they can to right the wrong.
From reading this, it's very clear that Hwasin has done just that and I wish him well for the future. He may have done wrong, but this was not an irredeemable crime - not even Savior is irredeemable to my mind, if he can eventually confront what he did.
Credit to Hwasin for this, and I hope we see more follow suit.
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding because the article. So Hwasin threw a match away in the OSL because it didn't matter and then he threw a match against Kal? Or did he try to beat Kal but ended up losing to him anyway?
I know there is probably still is a hole in everyone's heart from the scandal. But when you have an interview like this, it can put things into perspective. Everyone makes mistakes; and especially if you consider yourself a young person who left the education system to make a meager living off of video games. Its not too far fetched to believe him when talks about what was going on in his mind when he accepted the money.
Of course, we can only take his words at face value, only his long time friends can ever validate if his emotions in the interview are true.
Q: Tell us honestly, why (did you) agree to matchfixing back then?
A: First of all, everything I say now will come off as making excuses, but I still have to say it, I was in a very difficult position emotionally back then. There were bad things that happened at home, even though I had a salary, I didn't make much money.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
idiot radar
I`ll not gonna insult anyone here , i explain why i said that.
Selling Crack makes more money than, let's say, cupcakes. Should I be selling crack instead of cupcakes?
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
idiot radar
I`ll not gonna insult anyone here , i explain why i said that.
Selling Crack makes more money than, let's say, cupcakes. Should I be selling crack instead of cupcakes?
Probably. Do you sell cupcakes for a living? Take the best of both roads, sprinkle a little crack in there.
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
You know they were on professional teams right? Ones that paid them money to play? Like, play for real?
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Presumably the "good at something" part you're talking about is losing matches? What does that even mean? Surely they couldn't have been that good seeing they got caught, and then banned.
I`ll not gonna argue whit anyone , let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT ! You need to have courage to do this , and for me this is the most important , then stand in front of everybody and say "YES I DO THAT". Maybe is way wrong in your eyes , but i can understand it.I think most of us here would do that , mostly whit no regrets.That is the other side of the coin , i`m not old but i lived enough to understand that if u get a chance u need to take it.
This really seems almost like it must be a troll. Do you realize what you can rationalize with it?
To start off on the ridiculous side, let's say I am one of those truly bizzare individuals that find it fulfilling and fun to torture and kill people. Under this logic, why can't I? I REALLY need it to feel normal and good about myself, and it makes me very happy to do so. Now, that is a VERY dramatic example, and dangerously close to rationalizable under your logic.
A slightly less extreme example is the guy that is trying to make ends meet for his family and realizes with his skills and intelligence he could make a great hitman. He then goes out and begins ruining the lives of others and their families by killing off targets. By your logic this seems to be absolutely, totally okay. I find it difficult to believe you think that would ever in any situation, be acceptable.
Then to a less extreme example, but I can show you can rationalize nearly every example of cheating. Let's take the egregious example of a decent, but not quite top level sprinter struggling to make ends meet. He sees the possibility that is he takes DHEA, HGH, and testosterone, etc he can get get good enough to medal @ the Olympics. He is a smart guy, and knows how to avoid all the testing protocols and cycle off correctly to avoid detection. It would make him really happy to get this medal, and needs the money...it's tough scraping by on my 20k per year.
None of those examples are courageous. They are the polar opposite of that. Each of those individuals is a massive coward that tried to take an easy way out (except for perhaps the psycho killer)l. That's the epitome of cowardice. It takes no guts to "win at all costs", what takes guts is staying true to your principles when faced with adversity.
EDIT: I honestly cannot believe that you believe what you are saying. Are we mis-understanding what you are trying to communicate?
On August 24 2013 13:31 L_Master wrote: None of those examples are courageous. They are the polar opposite of that. Each of those individuals is a massive coward that tried to take an easy way out (except for perhaps the psycho killer)l. That's the epitome of cowardice. It takes no guts to "win at all costs", what takes guts is staying true to your principles when faced with adversity.
EDIT: I honestly cannot believe that you believe what you are saying. Are we mis-understanding what you are trying to communicate?
that was the entire point of this interview, to admit his guilt. not that he knew he was 'selling crack', but more of the fact he "lied on his resume to get the job/money".
On August 23 2013 22:39 LRM)INF3cted wrote: Actually i admire everybody involve in this match fixing scandal.If you a good at something , never do it for free
You know they were on professional teams right? Ones that paid them money to play? Like, play for real?
I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Presumably the "good at something" part you're talking about is losing matches? What does that even mean? Surely they couldn't have been that good seeing they got caught, and then banned.
I`ll not gonna argue whit anyone , let me put it clear - If u a smart enough and u see an possibility to get more money or anything that makes you happy or it`s really necessary just DO IT ! You need to have courage to do this , and for me this is the most important , then stand in front of everybody and say "YES I DO THAT". Maybe is way wrong in your eyes , but i can understand it.I think most of us here would do that , mostly whit no regrets.That is the other side of the coin , i`m not old but i lived enough to understand that if u get a chance u need to take it.
But how about the people who cheered, believed and even loved you? people that even in times when you are not so doing well never abandon you? Isn't it unfair? I mean doing what makes you happy is always a good thing but the moment you start hurting someone or something that's not good anymore even if what you are doing makes you happy. Because I think what you are saying is called being selfish. Just my 2 cents.
I really miss the BW days. We had heroes-villains, rivalry-friendships, relief-anxiety, joy-anguish. The players have distinct personality and play style. I really hope that lotv does something drastic to SC2 instead of some extra units.
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
Man, some people are just being really selfish here. This is a young man who has suffered more deeply than most of us could ever imagine at his age. He made two mistakes, the only victim of which was the reputation of an entertainment business, and the pain he went through was 10 times what he deserved. Some folks are in here wishing his life (and all the other guilty players' lives) was scarred even more deeply because you have some unproven feeling that he cut your entertainment a little short. That makes me a bit upset, it does.
On August 25 2013 14:04 Kitai wrote: Man, some people are just being really selfish here. This is a young man who has suffered more deeply than most of us could ever imagine at his age. He made two mistakes, the only victim of which was the reputation of an entertainment business, and the pain he went through was 10 times what he deserved. Some folks are in here wishing his life (and all the other guilty players' lives) was scarred even more deeply because you have some unproven feeling that he cut your entertainment a little short. That makes me a bit upset, it does.
nobody is going to agree with you that it was ten times what he deserved in form of 'punishment' or negative experiences. What people are expressing is disgust and hate. The punishment he received was only to be expected and if not, then we'd truly have the beginnings of what would be a corrupt e-sports scene. Now that hatred towards the player or in his general direction is communicated through wanting more 'justice' or simply wanting them to disappear from sight. I'd say those are completely normal feelings to have.
He had two influential mistakes that he had the clear conscience not to make and the ironic situation about it is that he would have enjoyed the game more, and the results of the games themselves could have been a win or loss in just the same places.
You are not suddenly disallowed from being able to have selfish feelings when the causes of them are from someone who made selfish choices.
On August 25 2013 14:04 Kitai wrote: Man, some people are just being really selfish here. This is a young man who has suffered more deeply than most of us could ever imagine at his age. He made two mistakes, the only victim of which was the reputation of an entertainment business, and the pain he went through was 10 times what he deserved. Some folks are in here wishing his life (and all the other guilty players' lives) was scarred even more deeply because you have some unproven feeling that he cut your entertainment a little short. That makes me a bit upset, it does.
Him and the other players deserved what they got and I'd say they're lucky that there wasn't anything else. People make mistakes and it's great to see him step up and come out with this interview as well as seeing that's hes wanting to be more of an honest man.
On August 23 2013 10:18 Kal_rA wrote: Korean punishments are pretty brutal. Kid made a mistake. Mind you, its a big one... but still he was just a kid. Shame that this is going to follow him for the rest of his life.
Korean punishments are pretty brutal in the wrong places...
Case 1: Person rapes another person or kills a person and the punishment pales in comparison to what is usually given in America...
Case 2: Person badmouths Korea on xanga while he's training to be a kpop boy band and 5 years afterwards, someone digs up this post, and he gets run out of the country because so many people are posting hateful remarks towards him on forums.
Personally, as a Korean, I resent the fact the government is so lenient on bigger crimes while seemingly lesser crimes are relatively harsh. It's like everything's more in the middle. There's no getting off unharmed, but then there's no extreme punishments (such as life sentences) either...
But more to the post, sad to see Hwasin, who seems genuinely repentant, to not even be able to witness STX win their last SPL-related game. He wasn't bad even~ and I'm kind of resenting Savior for not even talking to Hwasin after all this happened. What a loser of him....
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Everyone make mistakes, even big ones. Most of us are fortunate enough to make them in private or when we're too young for it to matter.
He was a good player, just wish he had been stronger when he needed to be. I'm sure if he talked to just a few other people he trusted he wouldn't have done it, but that's the nature of this. He paints Savior as the bigger villain, but Savior was influenced by bad people too. You just have to be strong enough to break than chain. Of course I wish Savior had been strong enough, because he was the one that created so many more links ;p
All sports have match-fixing, especially when they're young. BW actually was recovering pretty well from it before it got hit over the head with IP shenanigans. The match fixing was in reality a very small number of games thrown by a very small number of players, and most fans could see that and reasonably say it was terrible, but it didn't make the whole scene a lie.
The only way I could connect the match-fixing to the real reason for BW dying is if Blizzard saw it and got really pissed off and that's when they decided to take a shit on the scene... and I don't think that's what happened at all ;p
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
guessing this part: "Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that." although he didn't solely but felt like they were responsible for BW's demise.
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
Match fixing does not kill off sports, and it happens much more often than people would like to believe.
Placing any amount of blame on them for the demise of BW as a professional sport in Korea is absurd. You can blame them for being involved in shady business, for doing unethical/immoral things, for betraying the fans' trust, or for being stupid. But you can't blame them for the fact that Brood War met an untimely demise.
It's like saying a pool of hot water froze over because someone chucked an ice cube in there. No, it wasn't the ice cube, it was the blizzard that froze the pool. (pun intended)
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
guessing this part: "Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that." although he didn't solely but felt like they were responsible for BW's demise.
No where did they say that was the only cause. It's just one variable in the equation.
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
Match fixing does not kill off sports, and it happens much more often than people would like to believe.
Placing any amount of blame on them for the demise of BW as a professional sport in Korea is absurd. You can blame them for being involved in shady business, for doing unethical/immoral things, for betraying the fans' trust, or for being stupid. But you can't blame them for the fact that Brood War met an untimely demise.
It's like saying a pool of hot water froze over because someone chucked an ice cube in there. No, it wasn't the ice cube, it was the blizzard that froze the pool. (pun intended)
No one said kill and no one said it was the sole reason. You guys are reading too much in a tongue-and-cheek comment where people are still pissy at players. His one-liner was nowhere near over the top as you and the other guy are making it out top. Match fixing does put a black eye on sports. It has all sorts of negative impact & it cannot be undone. Look how SaviOr is still affected. Have you ever seen his chat on afreeca? Oh lordy. Koreans are pretty heavy when it comes to honor and discipline. Once again, it is a variable and to say it wasn't is silly and it isn't the only one. Off the top of my head I could list ten and they each have varying affects. At the end of the day it comes down to reputation oh and it wasn't untimely. It was going to happen regardless once you line up all the dominoes it just makes sense.
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
Where did the guy say he placed the blame solely on them?
guessing this part: "Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that." although he didn't solely but felt like they were responsible for BW's demise.
No where did they say that was the only cause. It's just one variable in the equation.
never disagreed with you, just saying. I think MasterOfPuppets makes a very valid point.
Yeah, but you guys were reading too much into what the other guy was saying is the only point I'm trying to make. If he flew right over the cuckoo's nest then I would be all over him too, but he didn't. That's not what he was insinuating.
On September 02 2013 00:59 StarStruck wrote: Yeah, but you guys were reading too much into what the other guy was saying is the only point I'm trying to make. If he flew right over the cuckoo's nest then I would be all over him too, but he didn't. That's not what he was insinuating.
I do feel like this article sheds some light one what was going through their heads during the scandal because I honestly don't think many of them realized how much harm their actions could cause.
Maybe I'm alone in this, but for me the day I heard about the match-fixing and the reactions on it was the day I really felt that eSports was an almost full grown sport.
i feel a little bad for Hwasin and Somehow feel like hate Jaehoon and so many people like that ( like Jaehoon obv ) are still in the community, literally dozens, already met few of them, thx fu stay away ( please )
... - guys borrowing money, coming with business, happy fellas, nice guys, mates, all around, mostly people who on your field for your money, for you health, for your Dignity gonna make twice or even tripple... even infinite you don't stop please be aware and please give notice to the community, Then You Gonna make Twice, or even infinately more... because You gonna gain Trust, Love, Support and Protection of All people around you ( that you just potentially helped ) sincerely
User was warned for this post
EDIT: Oh, I forgot to add - supervisors and CEO's ( no offence )
On September 02 2013 06:23 krzych113 wrote: ... - guys borrowing money, coming with business, happy fellas, nice guys, mates, all around, mostly people who on your field for your money, for you health, for your Dignity gonna make twice or even tripple... even infinite you don't stop please be aware and please give notice to the community, Then You Gonna make Twice, or even infinately more... because You gonna gain Trust, Love, Support and Protection of All people around you ( that you just potentially helped ) sincerely
User was warned for this post
could you explain word Intelligible Mod ? because what is in your opinion I don't think until to This Day it pretty Much Is ( example above - first page )
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
First, there isn't one single reason that neatly caused BW to disappear. The scandal pretty much destroyed hite sparkyz because most of the fixers came from that team. That didn't affect the state of BW?
You know what's sadder than the scandal itself? All the fans who supported savior even after the scandal. And when confronted about savior's immorality, they used a convenient excuse that savior was just "young" and "naive" to know any better. Sorry, that's bullshit.
Still, you and the other took part in BW's demise. I cant forgive that.
This.
You guys are seriously deluded if you think BW was going to go on without end, ad inifnitum, and that the end of BW came because of the match fixing scandal.
This. 9001 times this.
Blame Blizzard for their feud with Kespa, or blame the fact that a huge game catered towards the mainstream came out in the mean time. But to hold so much grudge for a bunch of kids that were too young and naive to know what they were really getting into (and didn't make bank off it anyway), you have to be really fucking jaded and unreasonable and/or delusional.
First, there isn't one single reason that neatly caused BW to disappear. The scandal pretty much destroyed hite sparkyz because most of the fixers came from that team. That didn't affect the state of BW?
You know what's sadder than the scandal itself? All the fans who supported savior even after the scandal. And when confronted about savior's immorality, they used a convenient excuse that savior was just "young" and "naive" to know any better. Sorry, that's bullshit.
Wow... yeah I'm sure sAviOr planned to destroy Brood War, he must've been some real evil mastermind irl...
-_-
Dude I'm sorry you're bitter, but if you really think their actions were anything more than selfish and short-sighted, that's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention renouncing one of the most brilliant minds to ever touch this game, but hey there you go... some people just can't get over it.
If you really think someone that age fully understands all of the implications of getting involved in something like this.... in fact many people would argue that young progamers are even more lacking in the real life experience/understanding department, but hey fuck that and fuck that logic, let's be mad and find a convenient scapegoat.
On August 23 2013 17:11 Emon_ wrote: Being a pro gamer is very unfair. You invest a lot of time and the chances to make money are S-L-I-M. The only reason these guys played BW was for the love of the game. That being said... Hwasin... you gave 7 years of your life to give us the most entertaining sport I have ever seen. To this day NOTHING comes close to the greatness of BW SPL, OSL and MSL. We got amazing entertainment - for free - while B-teamers, practice partners and probably some A-teamers were giving away their life. B-teamers and practice partners did it all without a salary, I'm pretty sure. Where are these lesser known gamers today - that built the leagues we so love? They are trying to catch up. Going to work, studying, trying to survive. We assume that KeSPA and the teams took care of them - but we all know that sleeping 4 in a room and playing video games all day - as a young kid - without a whole lot of money is unfair. And once you leave the team house, you're on your own again.
You were amazing at what you did. You were gods to us. And you DESERVED more than what you got. And you deserve more than what you get from fans now that we don't see you as much. I wish I could hear more about ex-BW players from that time. Are you guys adapting to adulthood alright?
You gave your life for BW... STX Hwasin... without your dedication who knows where STX would be today. 7 years.... 4-5 of them preparing for SPL/OSL/MSL/GSL.... Nothing but love for you Hwasin. Don't even worry about it.
This is why I could never really hold it against these guys in the long run... Despite its brilliance as a game, the industry around BW was brutal.
Of course I agree with the bans from playing. An example had to be made of them.
On August 23 2013 17:11 Emon_ wrote: Being a pro gamer is very unfair. You invest a lot of time and the chances to make money are S-L-I-M. The only reason these guys played BW was for the love of the game. That being said... Hwasin... you gave 7 years of your life to give us the most entertaining sport I have ever seen. To this day NOTHING comes close to the greatness of BW SPL, OSL and MSL. We got amazing entertainment - for free - while B-teamers, practice partners and probably some A-teamers were giving away their life. B-teamers and practice partners did it all without a salary, I'm pretty sure. Where are these lesser known gamers today - that built the leagues we so love? They are trying to catch up. Going to work, studying, trying to survive. We assume that KeSPA and the teams took care of them - but we all know that sleeping 4 in a room and playing video games all day - as a young kid - without a whole lot of money is unfair. And once you leave the team house, you're on your own again.
You were amazing at what you did. You were gods to us. And you DESERVED more than what you got. And you deserve more than what you get from fans now that we don't see you as much. I wish I could hear more about ex-BW players from that time. Are you guys adapting to adulthood alright?
You gave your life for BW... STX Hwasin... without your dedication who knows where STX would be today. 7 years.... 4-5 of them preparing for SPL/OSL/MSL/GSL.... Nothing but love for you Hwasin. Don't even worry about it.
This is why I could never really hold it against these guys in the long run... Despite its brilliance as a game, the industry around BW was brutal.
Of course I agree with the bans from playing. An example had to be made of them.
I firmly believe the people that got punished weren't the big fishes in the match fixing. edit : i heard about match rigging as early as I stepped in korea samjjang even got banned for some time because he admited maphacking and that his coach would specifically ask him to cheat even my manager at some point asked a friend of mine to lose against me, which never happened thankfuly i imagine much more matches were fixed than we know of
Lol he is trying to sound all innocent, like a confused child that was lured by some pedo.. he knew exactly what kind of buisness he was getting himself into.
I mean he cant really say: Yeah i did it because i like money. :D
On September 03 2013 01:05 ICanFlyLow wrote: Lol he is trying to sound all innocent, like a confused child that was lured by some pedo.. he knew exactly what kind of buisness he was getting himself into.
I mean he cant really say: Yeah i did it because i like money. :D
The money they made off of this was negligible compared to their proteam salaries... get a grip. -_-
On September 03 2013 01:05 ICanFlyLow wrote: Lol he is trying to sound all innocent, like a confused child that was lured by some pedo.. he knew exactly what kind of buisness he was getting himself into.
I mean he cant really say: Yeah i did it because i like money. :D
The money they made off of this was negligible compared to their proteam salaries... get a grip. -_-
Are you saying he did this with the pretense of getting caught?
On September 03 2013 01:05 ICanFlyLow wrote: Lol he is trying to sound all innocent, like a confused child that was lured by some pedo.. he knew exactly what kind of buisness he was getting himself into.
I mean he cant really say: Yeah i did it because i like money. :D
The money they made off of this was negligible compared to their proteam salaries... get a grip. -_-
Are you saying he did this with the pretense of getting caught?
I'm saying you're being unreasonable and ridiculous with your claims and this 2nd post only furthers that.
On September 03 2013 03:20 TriO wrote: Money the root of all evil not surprising to be honest.
Again, the money they made off of this was insignificant compared to what they were making as progamers. And this wasn't the case just for sAviOr.
On September 03 2013 05:35 Kyrillion wrote: Has someone kept count on how many threads are devoted to/have devolved into a debate about the matchfixing on TL ?
Its almost like it was a major event in BW and korean esports, huh?
On September 03 2013 05:57 BisuDagger wrote: Question/Debate: would adding hwasin too the SSL hurt or help?
For those of us oblivious to the situation, why would it hurt? Assuming it's because of his shady reputation - it's tough to say without the proper understanding of the context, but personally, I'd rather see him compete in a sportsmanlike manner again than not. I doubt it can help (bearing the assumption), but I'm all for stronger competition.
On September 03 2013 05:57 BisuDagger wrote: Question/Debate: would adding hwasin too the SSL hurt or help?
it's really up to the Korean audience to decide. Sonic tried to bring Saviour into the SSL and have him make up for his previous mistake etc... but his audience weren't fond of that and he decided against it eventually. I dunno if he'll agree to Hwasin joining even though he doesn't seem to be as deep in it as Saviour. Sonic's audience will have to decide when the time comes(if Hwasin plays again).
On September 03 2013 06:40 soujiro_ wrote: it would hurt ...
On September 03 2013 05:57 BisuDagger wrote: Question/Debate: would adding hwasin too the SSL hurt or help?
It's a big if and considering from the interview hwasin has given here . I think it's safe to say he won't be involved with starcraft any more as he is starting from a new slate. Match Fixing is not a big issue ? You got to be kidding me, hell the fall of broodwar could even be started from players cheating sparky teams for instance and big names with big popularity that draw fans to the game also have cause the fan's to stop supporting anymore because the player they support isn't playing anymore.
Thought this was worth bumping. With the new Savior drama, I think we should keep in mind just how many of these other players suffered because of his actions.
I don't care what he does with his stream or who watches it for that matter, I doubt he'd be featured on TL and he probably won't be allowed to participate in any tournament.
On February 10 2015 22:55 BLinD-RawR wrote: I don't care what he does with his stream or who watches it for that matter, I doubt he'd be featured on TL and he probably won't be allowed to participate in any tournament.
I'm wondering for how much time do people consider inacceptable that such players return to the game. I mean, the guy was talented. He did a mistake. Now this can be the result of what I'd call a "built-in" greed, but this can also just be the result of a one time mistake that he may severly regret. Banning for life sounds ok in the first case, but not in the second :/
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 10 2015 22:55 BLinD-RawR wrote: I don't care what he does with his stream or who watches it for that matter, I doubt he'd be featured on TL and he probably won't be allowed to participate in any tournament.
I'm wondering for how much time do people consider inacceptable that such players return to the game. I mean, the guy was talented. He did a mistake. Now this can be the result of what I'd call a "built-in" greed, but this can also just be the result of a one time mistake that he may severly regret. Banning for life sounds ok in the first case, but not in the second :/
these people gave their youth to this game and then, under immense pressure, they made some mistakes and now they're stuck in a bad place. i don't know what to think, but some people certainly feel like they can pass the harshest judgment on them without a second thought.
There si something called christian forgiveness. Obviously that guy suffered a lot from his mistake and got heavily (too much in my opinion) punished. Why are some people here, three years after, who probably don't even know him, who say bad things about him?
I don't know what to think about his return, but ehhh yeah streaming that he still enjoys betting was probably not the best way for him to get back to Brood War... He was doing such good PR before too.
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 11 2015 07:49 BisuDagger wrote: He apologized and I believe it to be sincere. I forgive him.
Would you forgive such a person that tried to (hypothetically) enter the scene again? Like remove his ban or just forgive him in the sense there's no hard feeling, but still being strict on such a ban.
It's a very topical thing as of late since we're seeing kids in Dota/CS doing the same dumb shit.
thing is unlike a lot of regular sports there are many many kids/teens in competitive esports who wouldn't think of the consequences of any erroneous actions they might do.
sure you can pass down harsh judgement and lifetime ban on adult athletes who cheat, but kid/teenagers?
savior and gang may not be teens anymore at the time of the scandal but i bet their mental age is still roughly in their teens, since they are not exposed and socially acquainted to the outside world from having most of their real teenage years practicing BW.
did he mention on stream that he still enjoys betting? that screenshot alone may cast some doubts on hwasin but it doesnt prove anything.
One can forgive a person and hold no further ill will toward him. I can even wish that he be successful in other areas of life. Heck, I could even go buy some clothes from his online shopping mall. However, to openly allow him back into the BW community is insane. It's not just about one guy. It's about threatening the perceived integrity and therefore the commercial viability of the post-KeSPA pro scene that is struggling to take root. This hurts all other players by association. The fact that he is streaming BW is itself a selfish action that hurts the players who currently make up the scene. His stream may even see good numbers, but including him in any BW event alienates millions of dormant BW fans as well as reputable corporate sponsors who don't want criminals appearing on TV programs with their brands plastered everywhere.
There are plenty of other great players to watch. There plenty of ways to forgive the sinners without letting them hurt everyone else.
If I weren't packing for a plane ride to Korea in order to watch a game this person helped bring so low impossibly brought so high by people who aren't like him, I would be more angry at people in this thread. I'll just leave it at stern disappointment.
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 11 2015 04:43 prplhz wrote: i don't know what to think, but some people certainly feel like they can pass the harshest judgment on them without a second thought.
i think most people just think that the matchfixing scandal is the cause of the initial downfall of BW (when a certain corporate entity pushing for a new game is more to blame...), and its easier to make scapegoats out of players. labelling and condemning mentally teens who dont know about consequences as criminals for life.
they act as if BW is sacred and holy (which i also want to believe), but no established sports in history has been free of any form of shady acts/corruptions in it, human greed is bound to get in the way eventually
Some of you little titties just about in time need to shut the fuck up their dotage mouth because I'm not even reading your inadequate yellings and infantile snivels about this great progamer. I know, those who bet got their punishment so hard by permanently getting banned their sorry butts. And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal. He was only one who asked for forgiveness and letting him to prove his honesty and fair play. So why the heck you are standing against him? Let him one last chance because he IS THE ONE who deserves it.
On February 11 2015 07:49 BisuDagger wrote: He apologized and I believe it to be sincere. I forgive him.
Would you forgive such a person that tried to (hypothetically) enter the scene again? Like remove his ban or just forgive him in the sense there's no hard feeling, but still being strict on such a ban.
It's a very topical thing as of late since we're seeing kids in Dota/CS doing the same dumb shit.
I would accept him back. It has been several years and he's the only one who actually put an effort into being apologetic after all this time.The time has definitely been served and god knows this is a hard thing for a kid to go through. Accepting him back would be a good gesture from everyone.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: Some of you little titties just about in time need to shut the fuck up their dotage mouth because I'm not even reading your inadequate yellings and infantile snivels about this great progamer. I know, those who bet got their punishment so hard by permanently getting banned their sorry butts. And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal. He was only one who asked for forgiveness and letting him to prove his honesty and fair play. So why the heck you are standing against him? Let him one last chance because he IS THE ONE who deserves it.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: Some of you little titties just about in time need to shut the fuck up their dotage mouth because I'm not even reading your inadequate yellings and infantile snivels about this great progamer. I know, those who bet got their punishment so hard by permanently getting banned their sorry butts. And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal. He was only one who asked for forgiveness and letting him to prove his honesty and fair play. So why the heck you are standing against him? Let him one last chance because he IS THE ONE who deserves it.
Eh, like I said I don't really care. A lot of the punishment he got post the scandal was pretty harsh and I felt it was unfair, especially during his time in the military, that said regardless of how and why he got involved in match fixing and how remorseful he is he probably won't be allowed to participate in tournaments.
I can't stop him from streaming BW, nor do I want to either, and I'm certainly not judging those who are watching his stream either.
I think it's the first time I've actually read his apology. Wow.
Progamers are people too. People make mistakes. Not to mention that a lot of the progamers in the BW days were teenagers. Most people their age aren't expected to make life-changing decisions like that. Considering his situation, I think the mistakes he made are understandable. Best wishes to him and his stream.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
:O how could savior force them?
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon (Savior) who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
It is clear that Savior is the founder of this match fixing thing and the rest are the followers of this masquerade. He is the reason of downfall of pro scene. Korean think that he is the main destroyer of KeSPA BW, not SC2 like mostly think.
I don't know why people never mention Justin, who pretty much brought down the entire Sparkyz team with him. Rumor was he came from a upper-class family and was well off. What a jerk.
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 10 2015 22:55 BLinD-RawR wrote: I don't care what he does with his stream or who watches it for that matter, I doubt he'd be featured on TL and he probably won't be allowed to participate in any tournament.
I'm wondering for how much time do people consider inacceptable that such players return to the game. I mean, the guy was talented. He did a mistake. Now this can be the result of what I'd call a "built-in" greed, but this can also just be the result of a one time mistake that he may severly regret. Banning for life sounds ok in the first case, but not in the second :/
spoke too soon
Rofl, indeed. IIRC betting is completely forbidden in Korea, right? That's not really intelligent from his part
My opinion is probably unpopular and obviously rather irrelevant, but I hope that there are at least some people who feel the same way. I feel like none of the ex-pros involved in the scandal should ever be forgiven and allowed back into the BW scene. There are some mistakes in life that you can only make once and I think betraying the entire community for some monetary gain should be one of them.
I know nostalgia plays a large part in people's judgement; I used to adore Hwasin's play as well and he was my favourite terran for a good while, but after utter scumbaggery like the betting scandal anything less than a lifetime ban wouldn't be appropriate. There's a lot of other things he could do, lots of other games to play and so on, just not BW because apologies shouldn't save him after spitting on the game and his fans.
Rofl, indeed. IIRC betting is completely forbidden in Korea, right? That's not really intelligent from his part
Not all betting is illegal in Korea. Government sanctioned betting like lotteries and horse racing betting is allowed, but not for online betting which the govt has no jurisdiction over
On February 11 2015 20:20 KasPra wrote: My opinion is probably unpopular and obviously rather irrelevant, but I hope that there are at least some people who feel the same way. I feel like none of the ex-pros involved in the scandal should ever be forgiven and allowed back into the BW scene. There are some mistakes in life that you can only make once and I think betraying the entire community for some monetary gain should be one of them.
I know nostalgia plays a large part in people's judgement; I used to adore Hwasin's play as well and he was my favourite terran for a good while, but after utter scumbaggery like the betting scandal anything less than a lifetime ban wouldn't be appropriate. There's a lot of other things he could do, lots of other games to play and so on, just not BW because apologies shouldn't save him after spitting on the game and his fans.
If the offenders in question during that time are say, in their 30s, I would have agreed with you long ago. But young people should deserve second chances, especially one who publicly express their apologies.
Shame on you Hwasin for using IE and reinforcing the idea that Korean BW players weren't actually tech savvy at all.
Seriously though I don't want to see people's lives destroyed from one mistake, some of the people involved were just kids and should be able to work their way through society again.
On February 11 2015 16:22 GTR wrote: I don't know why people never mention Justin, who pretty much brought down the entire Sparkyz team with him. Rumor was he came from a upper-class family and was well off. What a jerk.
I think the majority of people don't bring up Justin, because the majority of people who comment on the match fixing scandal simply don't have any idea ^^.
I can forgive Hwasin especially, I can truly believe he is sorry. Whether that translates to being able to play again.. well, I'm not as sure there. But Savior and Justin should stay banned from this game for life, regardless.
On February 11 2015 16:22 GTR wrote: I don't know why people never mention Justin, who pretty much brought down the entire Sparkyz team with him. Rumor was he came from a upper-class family and was well off. What a jerk.
Probably cause no one knew who he was before the scandal.
First of all, thanks Caihead for keeping up with the BW news and translating this for the community.
Aside from the match-fixing issue, I like to read these because I see all the old BW-time TLers are still alive and keeping in touch <3
I'd like to believe Hwasin is, at least on the abilities to feel remorse and to follow up with apologies, a few tiers of humanity above the scumbags Savior and Justin (+ Luxury but that involves a slightly different topic). Hwasin seems to have some grasp of the magnitude of what his actions may have caused.
If he wishes to return to the BW scene, he should and will be placed under a close watch. He'll have to publicly apologize again and again, and still (and rightfully so) people will be doubtful of his intentions. There will be cruel jokes and personal attacks. However, based on my impression from the current SSL10 and remembering my experiences live at SSL8 finals, the audiences have either 1) moved on and continue to support the BW scene or 2) young & new and are largely unaware of the scandal. There is room for a truly remorseful and reformed ex-pro to return. With the right attitude and perseverance, he can serve as a public reminder of the terrible things that happened and why we must prevent it from happening again.
On February 11 2015 23:20 Caihead wrote: Shame on you Hwasin for using IE and reinforcing the idea that Korean BW players weren't actually tech savvy at all.
Seriously though I don't want to see people's lives destroyed from one mistake, some of the people involved were just kids and should be able to work their way through society again.
Isn't the problem Hwasin was "walking his way toward the society" already? I think he has a job which has to be far more stable income than being BJ, and it was major reason besides apology why he had such positive PR - the fact that he chose to explore alternative method of life rather than dwelling on Afreeca with utter lack of shame. I'd believe Hwasin is actually risking his life being "destroyed" by getting himself involved in BW rather than vice versa.
It's shocking why he would choose to reopen old wounds like this, and just for public appearances I'd rather keep him at minimum from broadcasted tournaments like SSL; lack of consistency in the enforcement of BW participation ban, not alone mentioning controversy that would embroil the league, is not worth it.
On February 11 2015 23:20 Caihead wrote: Shame on you Hwasin for using IE and reinforcing the idea that Korean BW players weren't actually tech savvy at all.
Seriously though I don't want to see people's lives destroyed from one mistake, some of the people involved were just kids and should be able to work their way through society again.
Actually, internet explorer is used by most people in South Korea. I have no idea why but it's popular.
Holy shit, it's not like he killed a person. The kid made a bad mistake. But then, he spent his entire youth playing a computer game. No wonder his judgement was a little off. Beside that, I wouldn't blame anyone for taking an assumed easy way out of a very difficult situation he – and his family! – were in. The scandal might have destroyed the careers of uninvolved players and crushed the dreams of the fans (poor little puppies!). That a teenager is expelled from society for years and has to live through such intense psychological suffering after fixing merely TWO GAMES seems merciless and cruel to me.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon (Savior) who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
It is clear that Savior is the founder of this match fixing thing and the rest are the followers of this masquerade. He is the reason of downfall of pro scene. Korean think that he is the main destroyer of KeSPA BW, not SC2 like mostly think.
Thats the work of the dirty slithery zerg and the people who get tempted, not a signle one of the noble protoss bretherens was involved in this. Next time you want to say protoss scum think about that. Seriously, race preference can tell alot about the personallity of a man, i can say that for the people which i know.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon (Savior) who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
It is clear that Savior is the founder of this match fixing thing and the rest are the followers of this masquerade. He is the reason of downfall of pro scene. Korean think that he is the main destroyer of KeSPA BW, not SC2 like mostly think.
My questions is, how can Savior be so powerful that he can force them? He's not the coach.
On February 11 2015 23:20 Caihead wrote: Shame on you Hwasin for using IE and reinforcing the idea that Korean BW players weren't actually tech savvy at all.
Seriously though I don't want to see people's lives destroyed from one mistake, some of the people involved were just kids and should be able to work their way through society again.
Actually, internet explorer is used by most people in South Korea. I have no idea why but it's popular.
ActiveX is required for a lot/all online banking/shopping/other stuff in South Korea, I think it was put in place for the sake of consistency and thus in theory better security, which is actually horribly ironic because of the fact that using IE instead of a better browser is actually a security threat. Google it, there's plenty of additional information about why, the history of it all. I think in the last few years they actually reviewed that bit of policy and decided to renew it. >_<
Personally I feel that a lot of people make up mostly BS excuses ("still mentally just a kid") to completely let sAviOr or HwaSin back in (because they were the more popular and well known, skilled players involved). I wanted to forgive HwaSin, basically had, but wouldn't let him back in for reasons suggested by lemmata and KasPra and leaving betting links open to plain view is a very bad start.
Sure, part of the crowd is new and didn't experience the scandal. That makes a new crowd who could learn to feel the anguish of another's selfish actions that ruin something for a community. It also provides a group that might become fans of him and then be disappointed if he does it (or they might defend him from the older fans who will have been wronged twice). I don't *expect* he would do it again, but he certainly cannot be trusted not to. Some people said things about not ruining his life because of one mistake blah blah rubbish etc., which wouldn't be so bad except that at least one of you sounded (to me at least) like you were suggesting that we'd be ruining HIS life just by stopping him from playing the game he helped severely damage for so many others. WE won't have ruined his life. His whole life won't be ruined just because he did that either, he just might not be able to compete in BW. That's not ruining his entire life (and even if it were, 'twas his doing). Wish him well elsewhere, sure, but don't expect him to be let back in. SSL and anything OGN linked won't let him in, I highly doubt and hope Lovetv won't let him in, the smaller ones might.
On February 12 2015 01:27 Hesmyrr wrote: Isn't the problem Hwasin was "walking his way toward the society" already? I think he has a job which has to be far more stable income than being BJ, and it was major reason besides apology why he had such positive PR - the fact that he chose to explore alternative method of life rather than dwelling on Afreeca with utter lack of shame. I'd believe Hwasin is actually risking his life being "destroyed" by getting himself involved in BW rather than vice versa.
How so? If he's already got a job elsewhere without his employers banning him for his BW behaviour (they likely no nothing about it or else don't care enough or have forgiven him), he wouldn't be losing that by coming back. He might have left his job but he might just get it back or get another. He might still have it. He doesn't really have much to lose as far as the BW community is concerned. It is much more of a risk for the community than for him.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
:O how could savior force them?
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon (Savior) who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
It is clear that Savior is the founder of this match fixing thing and the rest are the followers of this masquerade. He is the reason of downfall of pro scene. Korean think that he is the main destroyer of KeSPA BW, not SC2 like mostly think.
My questions is, how can Savior be so powerful that he can force them? He's not the coach.
Maybe he is persuasive and a good liar (they said that he denied everything until the evidences made him GG).
On February 11 2015 20:20 KasPra wrote: My opinion is probably unpopular and obviously rather irrelevant, but I hope that there are at least some people who feel the same way. I feel like none of the ex-pros involved in the scandal should ever be forgiven and allowed back into the BW scene. There are some mistakes in life that you can only make once and I think betraying the entire community for some monetary gain should be one of them.
I know nostalgia plays a large part in people's judgement; I used to adore Hwasin's play as well and he was my favourite terran for a good while, but after utter scumbaggery like the betting scandal anything less than a lifetime ban wouldn't be appropriate. There's a lot of other things he could do, lots of other games to play and so on, just not BW because apologies shouldn't save him after spitting on the game and his fans.
Yea....like Murder or Rape...
I don't think this is one of those things man. He did his time. Time to move on. If people are never given a second chance nothing ever changes.
On February 11 2015 12:33 outscar wrote: And only one guy from this team apologized for this and also emphasized that he hates Savior because he forced him (and probable everyone) for this deal.
:O how could savior force them?
Q: Do you hate Ma Jae Hoon (Savior) who originally gave you the suggestion?
A: Initially I really did hate him, but more so I was fearful of him. But afterwards I felt really angry with myself. After realizing what a terrible thing I've done, I thought that I could only blame myself and not anyone else.
It is clear that Savior is the founder of this match fixing thing and the rest are the followers of this masquerade. He is the reason of downfall of pro scene. Korean think that he is the main destroyer of KeSPA BW, not SC2 like mostly think.
My questions is, how can Savior be so powerful that he can force them? He's not the coach.
I guess he's pretty much the Lance Armstrong of BW.
People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene; 2) ignoring the impact that the participation of convicted criminals would have on the business side of BW; and 3) showing a carefree attitude toward the probability of criminal recidivism.
Whenever a convicted criminal has appeared on television in Korea in a non-news context, great uproar, criticism, and controversy have always followed. You can kiss any future OGN broadcasts goodbye if any of the matchfixers are allowed back into the fold. This isn't about punishing the matchfixers. It's about protecting the present and future of BW on television. This isn't about matchfixers doing it again either. It's about the impact that having such people involved would have on the public perception (and hence advertising dollars) of professional BW.
Get a grip ffs, people. A few people may not care about such things, but millions of people do care. Unless you are going to spend millions of dollars personally financing the existence of televised BW for the next decade, the fact that you do not personally care about matchfixers being involved does not matter.
Everyone makes mistakes, everyone. The thing is that most of us are too insignificant for anyone but a handful of people to give a shit. He didn't intentionally hurt anyone. So good job to him for turning this into a growing experience by trying to move on while admitting his wrongdoings, there's absolutely no shame in that no matter what the haters say.
It is absolutely foolish to not let any of the "match fixers" back in to the loop, even savior, people make mistakes and BW is such an amazing game, these people are amazing at the game as well.
In my opinion it is obvious they should be given a second chance and let back into the scene, it is only going to benefit the scene in the long run for people to be more forgiving.
On February 12 2015 09:01 GGzerG wrote: It is absolutely foolish to not let any of the "match fixers" back in to the loop, even savior, people make mistakes and BW is such an amazing game, these people are amazing at the game as well.
In my opinion it is obvious they should be given a second chance and let back into the scene, it is only going to benefit the scene in the long run for people to be more forgiving.
I'm surprised someone with an MBC flair would be pushing to allow these players back.
On February 12 2015 03:46 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: BS excuses ("still mentally just a kid")
that is not BS excuse. or are you telling me juvenile criminal law (which can be extended to young adults) is BS as well? or that you are capable of making only rational adult decisions when you are 15 years old (physically or otherwise)?
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote: People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene; 2) ignoring the impact that the participation of convicted criminals would have on the business side of BW; and 3) showing a carefree attitude toward the probability of criminal recidivism.
1) what scene? dont forget we still don't really have a pro scene per se, there are no professional teams, no professional organization overseeing this, BW players dont draw fixed salary from playing BW etc.
If you are talking about the amateur scene, savior has already been streaming BW for a very long while (albeit not participating in any korean tourneys) and apart from the usual odd venom I dont see people clamoring to take down his stream whatever. Are you going to diss terror/pusan for playing balloon matches with savior? He also drew flak for participating in the China 2v2 tourney, yet I don't see korean players like Movie stop their participation in china competitions after that, or any majority of people continuing to criticize them even now for doing so.
Any other large korean tourneys or sponsored events would automatically not allow him in, but otherwise savior and gang are free to join in any other foreign or smaller events. With Savior on good behavior this has been going on for a while, and has yet to stop the current revival of BW spearheaded by sonic whatsoever.
2) I doubt simply playing BW primarily as a hobby would any effect on the business side of BW, since the big sponsored tourneys in Korea would have the good sense not to invite them anyway, even if somehow they wish to (and i think people like savior would not want to either). Some people on this forum think they shouldn't even touch BW ever even as a hobby, as if their cardinal sins is directly related to the game itself.
3) i think society continuing to label them as "criminals" even long after rehabilitation, continuing to treat them as such even if they say they have forgiven them, and restricting their freedom and reintegration has more of an impact on their likelihood of recidivism, if anything.
Hwasin is shunned from the society Hwasin's apology is accepted Hwasin is not allowed to participate in BW tournaments Hwasin is not allowed to stream BW
Him not being able to do option 3 does not automatically mean other three things come along in free-for-all bundle.
On February 12 2015 10:04 Hesmyrr wrote: There's difference between
Hwasin is shunned from the society Hwasin's apology is accepted Hwasin is not allowed to participate in BW tournaments Hwasin is not allowed to stream BW
Him not being able to do option 3 does not automatically mean other three things come along in free-for-all bundle.
society is always divided when it comes to (1) and (2), and as long as hwasin is on good behaviour it doesnt matter.
(3) is a definite no ONLY if the organizer refuses them (any big sponsored korean events that want to care about integrity)
hwasin is free to stream BW (4), its not illegal, you cannot enforce (4) by any means whether you like it or hate it
Yeah, I don't mind streaming, it is just that some people keep saying "stop ruining Hwasin's life!" while he has already recovered from his mistake. His matter of participation in BW league is another topic entirely for me.
On February 12 2015 10:14 Hesmyrr wrote: Yeah, I don't mind streaming, it is just that some people keep saying "stop ruining Hwasin's life!" while he has already recovered from his mistake. His matter of participation in BW league is another topic entirely for me.
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote: People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene; 2) ignoring the impact that the participation of convicted criminals would have on the business side of BW; and 3) showing a carefree attitude toward the probability of criminal recidivism.
1) what scene? dont forget we still don't really have a pro scene per se, there are no professional teams, no professional organization overseeing this, BW players dont draw fixed salary from playing BW etc.
There is a pro scene. It just isn't the KeSPA pro scene. A professional in the traditional sense is someone whose livelihood comes from a particular profession. Let's not forget that SSL10 is laying the groundwork for the creation of a new pro scene. Furthermore, I was also addressing those who are clamoring to see the match-fixers back in the big tourneys.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote: If you are talking about the amateur scene, savior has already been streaming BW for a very long while (albeit not participating in any korean tourneys) and apart from the usual odd venom I dont see people clamoring to take down his stream whatever. Are you going to diss terror/pusan for playing balloon matches with savior?
The vast majority of Koreans ARE plenty critical of savior. Terror's a bit screwed in the head. I give him the "crazy pass". As for Pusan, Hiya said it best: No one really wants to play against Savior, but the people who do play him are doing so because they really need the money. Hiya also pointed out that those who have plenty of money, like Bisu, won't play Savior because the hit to his reputation (which is big enough to have $ value) isn't worth it.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote: He also drew flak for participating in the China 2v2 tourney, yet I don't see korean players like Movie stop their participation in china competitions after that, or any majority of people continuing to criticize them even now for doing so.
Again, they need the money. What are they going to do? You will see people stop playing savior very quickly if they get picked up by a legtimate sponsor. Unfortunately, most players have no idea how the real world works so they see the small immediate gain but not the bigger future losses (or delays) of opportunity.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote: Any other large korean tourneys or sponsored events would automatically not allow him in, but otherwise savior and gang are free to join in any other foreign or smaller events. With Savior on good behavior this has been going on for a while, and has yet to stop the current revival of BW spearheaded by sonic whatsoever.
Yes, the ban on the matchfixers is a KeSPA ban. I am not talking about whether they are technically allowed to participate in non-KeSPA events. I am talking about whether their presence hurts viability of televised BW.
The current revival of BW spearheaded by Sonic has not been stopped because Sonic's been pouring his personal funds into it despite it not being profitable. To see that as an indicator that the match-fixers' did not have an impact on the current scene is like saying that mob hitmen are not dangerous because your bodyguard stopped the bullet with his body. Of course, there are other perhaps bigger reasons, but that doesn't mean that their presence is a non-factor. While I don't imagine that Sonic will stop financing SSL any time soon, I also don't know how Sonic's business will go in the future. Also, because I am thankful, I would like him to at least break even on the BW ventures in the future even. Furthermore, would Sonic continue if there was a new match-fixing scandal and his burgeoning brand would take a major hit from continued association with BW? It's one thing to lose $50,000 a year on a labor of love. It's an entirely different thing to lose millions in the brand value of your main business.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote: 2) I doubt simply playing BW primarily as a hobby would any effect on the business side of BW, since the big sponsored tourneys in Korea would have the good sense not to invite them anyway, even if somehow they wish to (and i think people like savior would not want to either). Some people on this forum think they shouldn't even touch BW ever even as a hobby, as if their cardinal sins is directly related to the game itself.
Playing BW privately as a hobby for fun and playing BW publicly for money is quite different. If you think that the latter doesn't have any effect on major corporate sponsorship, I don't know what to tell you other than that's just not the way it works in the real world.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote: 3) i think society continuing to label them as "criminals" even long after rehabilitation, continuing to treat them as such even if they say they have forgiven them, and restricting their freedom and reintegration has more of an impact on their likelihood of recidivism, if anything.
They have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. They can reintegrate into society without playing BW for money. Plenty of normal people do it. They might have to do some physical labor. They might have to start from the very bottom rung of some other career. They don't *have* to play BW for money to reintegrate. That's just another false equivalence. Calling for them to voluntarily stop activities that negatively impact the health of the community whose livelihoods they damaged (not killed, but certainly damaged) is not restricting their freedom. It's just asking them to show some remorse with their actions instead of words. It costs nothing to say sorry. Stopping their for-money streaming does have opportunity costs.
Furthermore, Hwasin's bookmarks seem to indicate that he bets illegally (or strangely visits illegal betting sites daily without betting). Getting him into a position where he might be able to fix matches himself, broker the match-fixing of others, or obtain insider information seems to be the very opposite of rehabilitation. These illegal betting sites even have betting lines for balloon-sponsored matches. So it's not just the big time tournaments that matter.
I haven't mentioned it here, but there is already open speculation about match-fixing in the current scene. It's not completely baseless. A handful of players are hanging out with some very unsavory individuals who are involved in illegal betting. Also, if you read the secondary/tertiary (not the main room) Afreeca chat in streams with many viewers, they are often flooded with advertisements for illegal betting sites. If anything, the scene needs a lot more vigilance now at this critical time in the rebirth of BW. Sonic is absorbing all the body blows for us now, but he still needs all the help he can get. Hwasin and Savior are not helping.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: There is a pro scene. It just isn't the KeSPA pro scene. A professional in the traditional sense is someone whose livelihood comes from a particular profession. Let's not forget that SSL10 is laying the groundwork for the creation of a new pro scene. Furthermore, I was also addressing those who are clamoring to see the match-fixers back in the big tourneys.
they are not TECHNICALLY earning livelihood from streaming BW, they only earn donations through "balloons" and not all streamers are like Bisu who earned enough to sustain themselves purely through that. theres not a professional scene, nothing close, not yet. if sonic starts to actually pour more money into professional teams/leagues, yes then there will be a true pro scene.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: The vast majority of Koreans ARE plenty critical of savior. Terror's a bit screwed in the head. I give him the "crazy pass". As for Pusan, Hiya said it best: No one really wants to play against Savior, but the people who do play him are doing so because they really need the money. Hiya also pointed out that those who have plenty of money, like Bisu, won't play Savior because the hit to his reputation (which is big enough to have $ value) isn't worth it.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: Again, they need the money. What are they going to do? You will see people stop playing savior very quickly if they get picked up by a legtimate sponsor. Unfortunately, most players have no idea how the real world works so they see the small immediate gain but not the bigger future losses (or delays) of opportunity.
so why is the public more lax and less critical when it comes to these things? why the double standard when it comes to foreign events? shouldn't koreans lambast movie, pure, guemchi for joining tourneys "tainted" by savior? or koreans in general don't simply give a fuck about foreign happenings?
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: The current revival of BW spearheaded by Sonic has not been stopped because Sonic's been pouring his personal funds into it despite it not being profitable. To see that as an indicator that the match-fixers' did not have an impact on the current scene is like saying that mob hitmen are not dangerous because your bodyguard stopped the bullet with his body. Of course, there are other perhaps bigger reasons, but that doesn't mean that their presence is a non-factor. While I don't imagine that Sonic will stop financing SSL any time soon, I also don't know how Sonic's business will go in the future. Also, because I am thankful, I would like him to at least break even on the BW ventures in the future even. Furthermore, would Sonic continue if there was a new match-fixing scandal and his burgeoning brand would take a major hit from continued association with BW? It's one thing to lose $50,000 a year on a labor of love. It's an entirely different thing to lose millions in the brand value of your main business.
what bodyguard? I haven't heard of any concrete anti-match/anti-illegal betting fixing measures or money poured into said measures to deter/stop such acts. What about kespa? In the past, have they properly educate their players on the importance of sportsmanship/ethics and inform them of the consequences of such acts, knowing they have so many young players at hand? look at how illegal betting is starting to become rife even in sc2 now, its obvious there hasn't been any proper measures put in place or anything taught to people. people are naturally greedy and will illegally bet and thus its up to the authorities/organizations involved to implement measures to safeguard their players and game. this is one thing sonic should be aware of if he decides to truly revive BW with a pro scene.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: Playing BW privately as a hobby for fun and playing BW publicly for money is quite different. If you think that the latter doesn't have any effect on major corporate sponsorship, I don't know what to tell you other than that's just not the way it works in the real world.
please read my statement again. i said playing BW privately does not have any business effects, not playing BW in competitions does not have any business effect
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote: They have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. They can reintegrate into society without playing BW for money. Plenty of normal people do it. They might have to do some physical labor. They might have to start from the very bottom rung of some other career. They don't *have* to play BW for money to reintegrate. That's just another false equivalence. Calling for them to voluntarily stop activities that negatively impact the health of the community whose livelihoods they damaged (not killed, but certainly damaged) is not restricting their freedom. It's just asking them to show some remorse with their actions instead of words. It costs nothing to say sorry. Stopping their for-money streaming does have opportunity costs.
Furthermore, Hwasin's bookmarks seem to indicate that he bets illegally (or strangely visits illegal betting sites daily without betting). Getting him into a position where he might be able to fix matches himself, broker the match-fixing of others, or obtain insider information seems to be the very opposite of rehabilitation. These illegal betting sites even have betting lines for balloon-sponsored matches. So it's not just the big time tournaments that matter.
I haven't mentioned it here, but there is already open speculation about match-fixing in the current scene. It's not completely baseless. A handful of players are hanging out with some very unsavory individuals who are involved in illegal betting. Also, if you read the secondary/tertiary (not the main room) Afreeca chat in streams with many viewers, they are often flooded with advertisements for illegal betting sites. If anything, the scene needs a lot more vigilance now at this critical time in the rebirth of BW. Sonic is absorbing all the body blows for us now, but he still needs all the help he can get. Hwasin and Savior are not helping.
probation is not rehabilitation? doing social service is not rehabilitation? proper counselling is not rehabilitation? rehabilitation is not just about spending time in jail you know. It is up to hwasin what they want to do with their lives, your constant labelling him as criminal when they are EX-CONVICTS does not help matters. and who say streaming BW is prohibited in any sense? Its not illegal for him, he does not draw a regular pro salary from it, organizers bar him from entering tourneys if they wish. No law stop him from just playing BW casually, only the social stigma and pressure society keeps placing on him. The kind of pressure that can make one crack and worst, make them continue their errant ways.
that screenshot doesn't prove anything. show me he owns accounts on those sites and have betted recently, thats more concrete evidence. until then we cannot say much.
like i said before corruption/matchfixing is frickken everywhere, even in the favorite sports that you like. Theres nothing you can do to stop human greed. Whats more important is that whoever revives BW would implement or help to implement frameworks/measures to curb illegal acts like betting, and ensure that every player is properly inculcated in the proper values of a true sportsman, making them know that any silly acts like match fixing can have wide consequences to the scene. And that any offenders would be swiftly dealt with. Thats one of the ways you properly revive a scene and impress sponsors, not just naming and shaming past offenders.
yeah people are acting as if this is some crazy anomaly. the only thing is that they got caught. matchfixing and cheating goes on in pretty much every sport. all of your favorite athletes are using performance enhancing drugs.
Had to intervene even though I dont care about the general argument:
they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases.
Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous.
they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases.
Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous.
You can turn this into an irrelevant argument about processes that rehabilitate people if you really want to do so. I actually strongly agree with you that jail is not a good way. However, it still remains that there is no evidence of actual rehabilitation (be it jail OR something more helpful like emotionally connecting with their childhoods on a couch). Claiming (you didn't do it but others did) that they're rehabilitated is just wishful thinking, especially given the betting links on the bookmarks bar.
On February 11 2015 03:56 Waxangel wrote: Korean community is laughing about how he forgot to remove the bookmarks to various betting related sites from his IE bar -__-
On February 11 2015 20:20 KasPra wrote: My opinion is probably unpopular and obviously rather irrelevant, but I hope that there are at least some people who feel the same way. I feel like none of the ex-pros involved in the scandal should ever be forgiven and allowed back into the BW scene. There are some mistakes in life that you can only make once and I think betraying the entire community for some monetary gain should be one of them.
I know nostalgia plays a large part in people's judgement; I used to adore Hwasin's play as well and he was my favourite terran for a good while, but after utter scumbaggery like the betting scandal anything less than a lifetime ban wouldn't be appropriate. There's a lot of other things he could do, lots of other games to play and so on, just not BW because apologies shouldn't save him after spitting on the game and his fans.
It's not necessarily nostalgia. It's also empathy and forgiveness. I never liked Hwasin as a player, but I don't hate him. If someone is remorseful for their actions, then I choose to forgive them.
And don't worry, your opinion is far from unpopular.
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote: People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments.
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote: People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments.
Perhaps. However, many people who posted in this thread certainly *are* saying exactly that. I agree that there is a silent majority that has forgiven without being okay with the match-fixers coming back to the scene, but wisely choose to stay out of the frustrating mud-wrestling that is any thread involving this topic. Heck, I should have done that. There's barely enough time in my day to enjoy BW, let alone participate in aggravating discussions about match-fixers.
For the sake of completeness, your statement that "there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments" is true, but it's irrelevant to whether we can forgive and still believe that they should stay the heck out of tournaments.
1) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument against not allowing him to play in tournaments for other completely legitimate reasons.
2) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument for saying that allowing him to play in tournaments is a necessary condition for forgiveness. All people who want him to play in tournaments may have forgiven him, but not all people who have forgiven him want him to play in tournaments.
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote: People continue to amaze me by 1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments.
Perhaps. However, many people who posted in this thread certainly *are* saying exactly that. I agree that there is a silent majority that has forgiven without being okay with the match-fixers coming back to the scene, but wisely choose to stay out of the frustrating mud-wrestling that is any thread involving this topic. Heck, I should have done that. There's barely enough time in my day to enjoy BW, let alone participate in aggravating discussions about match-fixers.
For the sake of completeness, your statement that "there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments" is true, but it's irrelevant to whether we can forgive and still believe that they should stay the heck out of tournaments.
1) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument against not allowing him to play in tournaments for other completely legitimate reasons.
2) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument for saying that allowing him to play in tournaments is a necessary condition for forgiveness. All people who want him to play in tournaments may have forgiven him, but not all people who have forgiven him want him to play in tournaments.
There's room for a wide range of opinions ranging from forgiveness and a desire to see him play, forgiveness and a belief he shouldn't play, ambivalence toward him personally and a belief he shouldn't be able to compete and hatred along with an insistence he not be welcomed back into the fold. Either way, it's just people's opinions. Personally, I like to be a contrarian, so I hate him but believe he'd be good for the scene if he returned, despite never being able to forgive him for his crimes against EsPoRtS.
On February 13 2015 03:46 Dazed_Spy wrote: Had to intervene even though I dont care about the general argument:
they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases.
Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous.
You can turn this into an irrelevant argument about processes that rehabilitate people if you really want to do so. I actually strongly agree with you that jail is not a good way. However, it still remains that there is no evidence of actual rehabilitation (be it jail OR something more helpful like emotionally connecting with their childhoods on a couch). Claiming (you didn't do it but others did) that they're rehabilitated is just wishful thinking, especially given the betting links on the bookmarks bar.
I dont actually want to turn it into tangent on another topic, I just couldnt resist the urge . But as for the rest of what you said: I dont think hwasin (etc) should be let back into professional starcraft, obviously their credibility is suspect and they'd almost certainly do more damage than good, merely by their presence. But in terms of...I'm not accusing you of this per se, but theres obviously a large segment of the foreign and korean fanbase that really is *mad* still. Theres been no proof of rehabilitation, yeah, true. Even if they went into a rehabilitation program, there would be no real proof. We just have to wait and see and observe their behaviour over a long period of time, theres no way to directly look into their brains. Hwasin, savior etc, should at least be forgiven insofar as they are not hounded and harassed by random strangers.
I dont know their lives all that intimately, but in the few interviews from the guilty progamers, all of them seem to strongly imply their utter pariahs. Koreas not a very forgiving society I suppose, and its not a good thing.
This happened a long time ago. The guy has apologized and moved on. He didn't try to worm his way back in. Cut him some slack, accept, and move on as well.
On February 13 2015 18:47 rabidch wrote: everytime i see this thread bumped i imagine in my mind that hwasin has apologized for match fixing for the 100th time
He's probably apologized for it thousands of times by now.
EPT
Kal reference. 
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/4iroU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f1orgNQ.png)
. But as for the rest of what you said: I dont think hwasin (etc) should be let back into professional starcraft, obviously their credibility is suspect and they'd almost certainly do more damage than good, merely by their presence. But in terms of...I'm not accusing you of this per se, but theres obviously a large segment of the foreign and korean fanbase that really is *mad* still. Theres been no proof of rehabilitation, yeah, true. Even if they went into a rehabilitation program, there would be no real proof. We just have to wait and see and observe their behaviour over a long period of time, theres no way to directly look into their brains. Hwasin, savior etc, should at least be forgiven insofar as they are not hounded and harassed by random strangers.
