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Hummm...
How to start this...
As you may or may not know, the DRTL is currently experiencing some problems along the way. This thread's purpose is to attempt to address these problems, as well as plan out the next season a little bit better. I'm just going to list them off the top of my head in no particular order.
Do note, that the result of this thread will be FINAL and no changes will be made after the start of next season.
1) Game schedule
So, the current schedule isn't quite the best for everyone, and it has led to a lot of postponed games. It's currently impossible to change it for the current season, but it should be a subjest of change for the next one. We have people from too many timezones for it to be otherwise.
Also, I'd like to throw out the possiblity of having at least two game days during a week. Possibly more, but that's up for discussion.
2) Presubmitted lineups
To put it simple:
Previous season people complained about having to do lineups.
This season people complained about not having to do them.
What's it going to be?
So far, it looks like it's going to be presubmitted lineups, and there will actually be enforced penalties for being late.
3) Match format
Bo7/5 with/without ace match? All kill format? This mainly has to do with team size and such. Include 2v2 or not?
Judging by the activity of some teams, it shouldn't be a problem to run a bo7 with ace match, but looking at other teams... I'm not entirely decided. I'll probably have to wait to see what the turnout for the next season is.
4) Maps
Pretty straightforward, what maps will be played. I'm thinking of including some of the new maps by Rose.Of.Dream. There will BE changes to the map pool either way, but I'd like to hear what you guys think about the new maps.
5) Player eligibility
Oh boy, this is a sore one. Certain players are growing in skill, and due to the nature of the league, it'd be the best if they get excluded from its next iteration, HOWEVER,
the league is losing player numbers at the same time. Birdie brought setting up a glicko system designed specifically for this so we can absolve ourselves of the iccup ranks.
6) Player numbers
Well, let's not beat around the bush, the league is losing players. There are some options:
-expand it to accomodate low C- players
-recruitment drive from the Starcraft 2 section of the forum
-???
-it's also possible that we'll gain some players due to the summer's end
7) Managing the league itself
If we are to have a change in the time that the games are being played, we'll probably have to move away from BWCL. That's rather unfortunate, as it is a really convenient site.
Other than that, a huge problem is the difficulty of obtaining results and replays so the games could be cast. But that's a 50-50 problem. While the management could be better, the players can help out a bit as well. Same with the lineups, actually.
8) Score keeping
This one is pretty straightforward as well, people don't seem to like the way the scoring system is set up right now. A return to proleague setting is the easiest solution.
9) Season's start
It should be about 2 months after the playoffs for the current season end.
Well, that's about everything I can think of right now, please feel free to chime in if I've missed something.
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1) Managing a team is really up to the teams themselves. If a team has, say 10 people, and half of them decide that real life is getting busier, then there's really not much you can do. Try to keep in touch with your teammates though, start a skype group or something. Courage has great organization coz we usually hang out in the same IRC all the time.
2) Presubmitted is best. Not having presubmitted requires more work imo.
3) If we are having difficulties getting players to play, then Bo5.
4) You should keep standard 4p/2p macro maps. While island/drop play maps like outsider are fun to watch, they force us to play in ways which may or may not be good for player growth.
5) If this is a problem, then you maybe have to ask that all players participating in the league play at least 10-30 ladder games before the league starts, or a couple of ladder games per week.
6) Work. Life. RL sucks, I know.
7) No comment.
8) No comment.
9) I really wish that the league would be more active, but I can't always be active either.
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1: I would definitely like a later time, say...4-6 hours later would be nice. Or have it on a different day and earlier, say Friday and 3 hours earlier. But that may not work with everyone, I don't know.
2: I didn't mind presubmitted lineups at all this season and thought they work really well, so I'd like to keep them. I definitely think there should be enforced penalties for late lineups, and the lineups should get posted at the deadline time for them so everyone knows what's happening.
3: Bo5 is a good size, in my opinion. Bo4 with an ace match if it's 2-2 could work as well, with teams having low player numbers. Bo7 seems too big, considering some teams could barely manage 5 players showing up.
4: " I'm thinking of including some of the new maps by Rose.Of.Dream." YES YES YES :D new/interesting maps would be great.
5: working on something, more info when it comes out.
6: I think more advertisement on iCCup could be good, and also if there was a Russian team from defiler.ru of D ranks players, that'd be pretty cool. I think the players themselves would be the biggest help here, as everyone has friends on iccup that don't browse TL much.
7: I don't like BWCL, I think I could do better >.> I'd say the team captains should be held responsible for getting replays in to the league manager.
8: Yeah change to 3 points for a team win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss.
9: 2 months sounds good.
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On September 13 2012 21:05 Nikon wrote:
Hummm...
How to start this...
As you may or may not know, the DRTL is currently experiencing some problems along the way. This thread's purpose is to attempt to address these problems, as well as plan out the next season a little bit better. I'm just going to list them off the top of my head in no particular order.
Do note, that the result of this thread will be FINAL and no changes will be made after the start of next season.
1) Game schedule
So, the current schedule isn't quite the best for everyone, and it has led to a lot of postponed games. It's currently impossible to change it for the current season, but it should be a subjest of change for the next one. We have people from too many timezones for it to be otherwise.
Also, I'd like to throw out the possiblity of having at least two game days during a week. Possibly more, but that's up for discussion.
2) Presubmitted lineups
To put it simple:
Previous season people complained about having to do lineups.
This season people complained about not having to do them.
What's it going to be?
So far, it looks like it's going to be presubmitted lineups, and there will actually be enforced penalties for being late.
3) Match format
Bo7/5 with/without ace match? All kill format? This mainly has to do with team size and such. Include 2v2 or not?
Judging by the activity of some teams, it shouldn't be a problem to run a bo7 with ace match, but looking at other teams... I'm not entirely decided. I'll probably have to wait to see what the turnout for the next season is.
4) Maps
Pretty straightforward, what maps will be played. I'm thinking of including some of the new maps by Rose.Of.Dream. There will BE changes to the map pool either way, but I'd like to hear what you guys think about the new maps.
5) Player eligibility
Oh boy, this is a sore one. Certain players are growing in skill, and due to the nature of the league, it'd be the best if they get excluded from its next iteration, HOWEVER,
the league is losing player numbers at the same time. Birdie brought setting up a glicko system designed specifically for this so we can absolve ourselves of the iccup ranks.
6) Player numbers
Well, let's not beat around the bush, the league is losing players. There are some options:
-expand it to accomodate low C- players
-recruitment drive from the Starcraft 2 section of the forum
-???
-it's also possible that we'll gain some players due to the summer's end
7) Managing the league itself
If we are to have a change in the time that the games are being played, we'll probably have to move away from BWCL. That's rather unfortunate, as it is a really convenient site.
Other than that, a huge problem is the difficulty of obtaining results and replays so the games could be cast. But that's a 50-50 problem. While the management could be better, the players can help out a bit as well. Same with the lineups, actually.
8) Score keeping
This one is pretty straightforward as well, people don't seem to like the way the scoring system is set up right now. A return to proleague setting is the easiest solution.
9) Season's start
It should be about 2 months after the playoffs for the current season end.
Well, that's about everything I can think of right now, please feel free to chime in if I've missed something.
1) Can't find a better time than Saturday 17-19CET
2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce.
3) BoX with Ace... It's really the only way to go about it because there's so much extra hype built up around the meta of an ace match.
4) New maps, agree with your suggestion - This should also allow more dedicated players to do better vs simply higher skill players who don't practice.
5) Doesn't matter what you do here, just name the league appropriately and incorporate the correct set of rules, if you cling to C- players, don't call it DRTL and you'll be fine... As long as there is some logical sense to what you're doing.
6) Simply put, the league is unattractive... Only pre-made teams or teams who have been together since the start will care about the event because there is no clan war, it's a bunch of games played at the same time or various PP times. Thus, if teams can have fun on their own without the league, they will enjoy the league, if they aren't a team outside of the league, then they won't. The league itself doesn't bring that team value packed within it and players don't get that competitive feeling out of a best of 1 (not sure if changed, but just looking at it from when I quit).
7) BWCL really adds nothing to the league, it's basically added publicity to a site that doesn't really have a BW crowd... Notice not all top teams are even in BWCL. Otherwise, consider that if something is going downhill that all you are currently doing is incorrect (not saying it is, but just assume so as anyone who runs a league should do)... Now, recalculate every aspect of your league find where the peak increases were and the peak decreases. From there you can find out what you did wrong and what you did right. By that, you could end up with something like "I didn't do anything differently during this time" - Which could very well be the problem even of itself. I don't think I'm too fit to point out what went wrong exactly or what can be improved given that I haven't followed it per say, but I'm pretty sure you can come up with something on that. Given that Season 2 was far bigger than Season 1 in terms of active players, there is obviously a point where something attracted these players and a point where something drew them away again. You should ask around, but tend to ignore really fluffy answers like "Everything is great, loving it thx NIKON" and really dramatic ones such as "I hate the world, no one loves me, fu Nikon". If you can sort through the weeds of people artificially boosting their opinions either way, then you should be good.
8) Go to basics W=1 L=0
9) When the season starts, don't be totally opposed to change, if you see something that can be done better, change it then and there.
Suggestion that isn't within the 9 points itself, if you really want to make sure this league is a success, go further into managing the teams, assign leaders which are proven good leaders and closely monitor their teams. Troubleshoot right away upon an error and allow the team leaders to make league decisions in a private conversation at which point you can approve reasonable decisions (which they should be if you trust your team leaders to be legitimate).
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2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce.
Pre-submitted lineups are great for this kind of league because of the varied timezones everyone lives in. Pre-submitted lineups mean that all 10 players don't have to be available at the same time for however many hours it takes to get through a Bo5 team kill style. It'd be great if we did have players who are active enough and have time enough to do so but we don't, so pre-submitted lineups and a Bo5 which isn't allkill format works the best for a league like this.
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On September 13 2012 21:51 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce. Pre-submitted lineups are great for this kind of league because of the varied timezones everyone lives in. Pre-submitted lineups mean that all 10 players don't have to be available at the same time for however many hours it takes to get through a Bo5 team kill style. It'd be great if we did have players who are active enough and have time enough to do so but we don't, so pre-submitted lineups and a Bo5 which isn't allkill format works the best for a league like this.
In top foreign leagues, the time zone distribution is the same and everyone can make it for 17CET.
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On September 13 2012 21:52 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 21:51 Birdie wrote:2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce. Pre-submitted lineups are great for this kind of league because of the varied timezones everyone lives in. Pre-submitted lineups mean that all 10 players don't have to be available at the same time for however many hours it takes to get through a Bo5 team kill style. It'd be great if we did have players who are active enough and have time enough to do so but we don't, so pre-submitted lineups and a Bo5 which isn't allkill format works the best for a league like this. In top foreign leagues, the time zone distribution is the same and everyone can make it for 17CET.
"Top foreign leagues" is the key phrase there. This is a pretty casual league, and it will only lose more players if you are required to be there at a time when you can't make it. I know I can't make it at CET 17.00, and there have been quite a lot of postponements in season 3 which would have just been walkovers if it weren't for pre-submitted lineups.
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On September 13 2012 21:55 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 21:52 Eywa- wrote:On September 13 2012 21:51 Birdie wrote:2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce. Pre-submitted lineups are great for this kind of league because of the varied timezones everyone lives in. Pre-submitted lineups mean that all 10 players don't have to be available at the same time for however many hours it takes to get through a Bo5 team kill style. It'd be great if we did have players who are active enough and have time enough to do so but we don't, so pre-submitted lineups and a Bo5 which isn't allkill format works the best for a league like this. In top foreign leagues, the time zone distribution is the same and everyone can make it for 17CET. "Top foreign leagues" is the key phrase there. This is a pretty casual league, and it will only lose more players if you are required to be there at a time when you can't make it. I know I can't make it at CET 17.00, and there have been quite a lot of postponements in season 3 which would have just been walkovers if it weren't for pre-submitted lineups.
You guys keep throwing away the term "casual" as though the league is shared among a small circle of friends... And the league is losing players, perhaps think of your current conception of the league to be an issue.
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you're losing players not because of disorganization, but because of too much organization and tediousness
i dont feel like signing up on another website just to play in a league personally
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Croatia9500 Posts
DRTL is very dear to me and I think it's very important thing to have in our scene as an incentive for players in lower ranks to keep playing and practicing. With that being said, I must criticize you for practically abandoning your league mid-season, but I can see how one might get discouraged when he sees a lot of postponed games and walk overs. But still, the most important thing is to keep your organization as professional as it can be, mainly keep your main thread and Liquipedia page updated and be active in your threads discussion. However, I know this can be a lot of one person so maybe you should try to find someone to help you with managing the league.
With that being said, here are my suggestions. They are in no way perfect, but at least we can have some discussion about it:
1) Game schedule
I think there should be more flexibility for playing games. Having a fixed time each week is hard because teams aren't that deep to always have available players. Some teams have 7-8 members and they need 5 of them to play a clan war which sometimes can be hard.
There should either be a mandatory 10 players a team policy which might be hard getting that many players, or teams can work out the time they want to play between them if the default time doesn't suit them, as long as it's in the same week.
2) Pre-submitted lineups
I'm sorry, but this is a really bad idea for a league that is shaky as this one. I don't remember any clan league having this in foreign scene. Captains of the team always formed their line-up at the time of the clan war, because they can see who showed up then.
Just have captains of the team write their line-up in channel at the same time before clan war starts.
3) Match format
I think this should be changed from previous seasons (although that is only my opinion, people who actually play in the league will have a better opinion I'm sure).
I think you should go with old school format that was used in mostly all team leagues (WGT, ICCup). Format was as following:
- Four bo3 1v1s games
- One bo3 2v2 game (2v2 game can be played by same players who played 1v1)
Pretty simple concept and yet provides good competition. You can use only 4 players or if you have a team that's specifically practicing 2v2s, you can use them to edge out your opponent. I think 2v2 is pretty fun and it provides a component of team work.
4) Maps
If you do the format I mentioned above, I think having a map pool with 1st map being set (although different each week) and then loser pick next map from the given map pool, is the best option.
5) Player eligibility
Yeah, this is a pretty tough one. Birdie's solution seems to be good.
6) Player number
Expanding it to low C- rank players doesn't seem like an ideal option, especially it's hard to determine that. I definitely think you should promote it more, either in SC2 forums or in sGs. clan, so that the players who just started playing BW can join a team and be a part of the competition. Even if they're not used in clan wars line-up, having that feeling of competing together with your team mates can be exhilarating.
7) Managing the league itself
I think each team should have a captain or a person in charge of those things (sending in results, replays). That would actually make everything easier. Organizing a team, setting up clan wars etc...
8) Score keeping
I'm actually not sure how you keep scores so far, but you can always borrow systems from Proleague, ICCup clan league etc...
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On September 13 2012 21:45 Eywa- wrote:
7) BWCL really adds nothing to the league, it's basically added publicity to a site that doesn't really have a BW crowd... Notice not all top teams are even in BWCL. Otherwise, consider that if something is going downhill that all you are currently doing is incorrect (not saying it is, but just assume so as anyone who runs a league should do)... Now, recalculate every aspect of your league find where the peak increases were and the peak decreases. From there you can find out what you did wrong and what you did right. By that, you could end up with something like "I didn't do anything differently during this time" - Which could very well be the problem even of itself. I don't think I'm too fit to point out what went wrong exactly or what can be improved given that I haven't followed it per say, but I'm pretty sure you can come up with something on that. Given that Season 2 was far bigger than Season 1 in terms of active players, there is obviously a point where something attracted these players and a point where something drew them away again. You should ask around, but tend to ignore really fluffy answers like "Everything is great, loving it thx NIKON" and really dramatic ones such as "I hate the world, no one loves me, fu Nikon". If you can sort through the weeds of people artificially boosting their opinions either way, then you should be good.
BWCL does have advantages. Nikon mentioned before that he has a hard time to organize everything on TL.net, which is basically due to TL.net being a forum and has little helps to run a league on it. Any "bigger" league with an automated system makes life easier for the organizator, so his decision to give it a try was only reasonable.
Plus, since BWCL does have other non-D-Rank Teams and a higher division could've very well enabled a few new options, as in: if players get "too good" to be D-Ranked only anymore, they could be promoted into a higher division and/or teams that are "too bad" for the higher leagues to get demoted back. You have to admit that BWCL is quite easy to handle and not so much more work. The only people that really need to visit this page are the leaders and only one time a week.
I agree that BWCL has huge downsides, like having a fixed system that was used before the Beta and consequently stops you from introducing stuff like the Winner League Format. Then again Winner league format is only good if you have highly organized teams, players available for longer than 90 minutes and live cast.
However, calling it a page "with no BW scene" is more than offending. They did a lot for us in the past and they still try to keep up their support. Their webmaster spent a shitload of time to fix issues just for this league and players like you. It's sad that it apparently doesn't work out, but it was very worth the try. They really tried to help and were glad that someone remembered them.
Besides, on the organizational part - a lot can be done by the players. I think Nikon is a very good organizer, since he really cares for input coming from anyone and tries his best. This topic just shows it. You gotta understand that this league is not filled with ordinary clans, but with both casual players teaming up and rookies that try to play as much as they can in order to get better. You'll have a hard time to please both sides, but should never forget that everyone tries to have fun. I like the teams that blogged their stats and tried to hype their teams, that helps out a lot. Also, if you leave BWCL, you could give Liquipedia a try. Anybody can update that, anybody can view that, you don't need new accounts etc. Leaders could add their roster for the upcomign play day. But that needs good leaders willing to spent a few more minutes. I'd help out setting up the blank page, but the updates need to come from the scene. The more people spent a few more minutes, the better this thing runs - which was the key to success for this kind of low level events in the first place imho.
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I would say give teams a week to play their games throughout a set. Maybe even make separate threads for each match so all discussion can be found publically. You could also make Skype channels. Normally its communicating with people in a effective way is what I've always found out when running my tournament. Hope this helps.
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I agree with eywa- time should be fixed, however I think that australia, and new zealand players won't be able to play at that time, there's a member in my team that can't play due to that, maybe 2000 CET? I don't know if the russians have troubles with that time, but the rest of us should be fine(on the america(not as in usa) side).
Also I think that we as players could edit liquipedia with the results.
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1.) postponements are fine, since not everyone can meet at a certain time to play. DRIT works almost entirely off players scheduling their own matches.
2.) Presubmitted lineups, because its better for the league and the players to know who they are playing, so they can practice and prepare. When lineups are submitted late, either there needs to be a penatly, OR make the team default to their previous weeks lineup.
Not to mention, if there are no presubmitted lineups, then that makes EVERYONE at the mercy of the set game-time. A time that is good for Europeans isn't necessarily for people on the US East Coast, or West Coast, or Australia. Since its pretty much universally agreed that not everyone can make a certain time, a system that allows for people to agree to a time amongst themselves is the best.
3.) Depending on team's activity, I would say Bo5 with an Ace match. If teams are more active, Bo7 with ace would be great, but this should be waited on till signups are complete.
4.) Neo Requiem
5.) Get Harem to decide on if a player is C- or not
6.) I don't like the idea of letting in C- players, and this isn't a SC2 tournament. Or, it shouldn't be an SC2 tournament.
7.) IMO there needs to be at least 2 people running the league. Replays should be required if a win is to count. If a team wins, and doesn't submit replays, just mark it down as a double loss till they do get submitted. Also, fuck BWCL, having to get everyone playing in this thing to sign up for that thing is a big annoyance.
8.) Team ranks should be determined by Match win/losses, with individual set victories used as tiebreakers.
9.) Season can start whenever, up to you
2) Pre-Submitted line ups is stupid, it's not done in any competitive league because it removes strategy... Whether it is used here or not depends if the teams want to take this league seriously or not, if the answer is no... Then the losing of players will always be happening. No one can even give the "Need to practice for a mu", because if they see they have ZvP this week, they'll practice 3 hatch hydra. In Proleague, they wouldn't show their line ups ahead of time because it would make it virtually impossible for a lesser team with a few snipers to take down a better team. In Dota, you don't get to practice vs the hero line up that was picked in the game... Quite simply, pre-announced line up makes things "easier" for certain players, but it kind of turns the league into a bit of a farce.
lol, Proleague doesn't show lineups ahead of time because of match fixing. Prior to match fixing, Proleague did exactly what this league does, presubmitted lineups so people know what to practice. Please don't make up shit and try to pass it off as fact.
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On September 13 2012 23:13 empty.bottle wrote:
Also I think that we as players could edit liquipedia with the results.
I think Liquipedia, this forum, or any venue where players can edit/update their results commonly is good (assuming accountability/verifiability) in case designated Captains go MIA or anything like that.
One key point I'd like to point out is that everyone following or participating in an event wants to see both lineups and results updated regularly. An event loses a lot of hype and interest when you go to the OP for weeks and it appears as if nothing has actually happened. I don't know what the best way is, but having an accessible, updated display of "What matches are coming for this week?" and "What matches have been played/how did they go/here's where to watch them." at the very least should be high on the goal list. Nikon did a great job with this in Season 2 where every week we would see new lineups, new results, and new replay packs posted to the OP.
1 & 2.) Rescheduling and lineups seem essential to me. Even outside of America/Australia there should be East Asia to consider. Plus in addition to time zones there are jobs and schools and other obligations that regularly interrupt dedicated players from attending any sort of fixed time.
To find the best implementation I think we'll need input from everyone in light of their own team/organizational situations. I think my team liked Season 2's system, but that might not be workable for every team.
3.) I liked 2pac's format suggestion. Maybe even have Ace match with it. With the current player pool I think supporting bo7's may be difficult. On 2v2's: some players may not like it, but there are also players on iCCup who'd rather just 2v2 than 1v1. I, for instance, have only ever attained D+ in 2v2 playing with friends. I feel like it *could* be a way to attract players if advertised.
4.) Maps have seemed fine so far. I personally feel like there is some pro-Protoss bias in both DRTL and DRIT map pools (especially P>T with the excess of reverse ramps and Outsider) but a.) this is low level play so it's less relevant, and b.) there has been nothing completely broken/bad like Battle Royale, DMZ, Demon's Forest, etc.
5.) I don't know what the best solution for this would be.
6.) Players who've brushed C- but have D+ skill level already sign up. I think for player interest we just need good promotion, updates, and communication to communities outside BW forum and outside TL. As I said earlier, updates are very important to maintaining player interest, so that after every week players can look back and think "Ok this is what me and my team have done. This is where we're going. My team hwaitingggg!!"
Of course there are other factors we can't control such as school/university starting and mobas becoming more popular, both sapping from the casual BW player pool.
7.) As Nikon pointed out here: Captains or other organizational representatives of teams need to be on the ball, active and communicating everything every week.
I personally feel BWCL isn't very effective as an organizational nexus in Season 3. Compared to posting/emailing something in plain text, managing lineups and posting results on BWCL is less intuitive (Captains had to discover this for themselves partway through the Season.) As far as I know it doesn't allow for a double blind lineup submission either. In essentially every match I've had in Season 3, I've organized personally with another Captain via PM or TL posts since they're simply easier and more transparent.
8 & 9.) I don't have anything to say for these.
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Polls Polls Polls  If you vote no on any one of these please do leave a comment why, or your suggestion.
1) Game schedule
My opinion: I think pp is a must. If the world was still flat, it wouldn't be needed as much but since were short on players and don't have the luxury of ignoring some parts of the world we need to have this. Also the best way to allow pp is to have a presubmited lineup, but more on that later. The current schedule in theory is nice coupled with pp and lineups; we all just need to be a little more active in updating the thread saying if we can make it or not a day or two prior to the arranged time.
Two game days a week might end up being a little more confusing than we think.
Poll: Keep one main time, allow PPYes (11) 85% Change up (2) 15% 13 total votes Your vote: Keep one main time, allow PP (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Change up
My vote: Keep with pp - Most flexible. Allows players to know who theyre going to play ahead of time and schedule when also.
2) Presubmitted lineups
Pretty straight forward, I think its mainly needed cause people can't show up on time. This would allow for easy pp and the league to run smoothly; preparation would help too. I don't see the point of lineups w/o penalties but to each is their own.. vote away!
Poll: Presubmitted lineups Yes; yes penalty (11) 79% No (3) 21% Yes; no penalty (0) 0% 14 total votes Your vote: Presubmitted lineups (Vote): Yes; no penalty
(Vote): Yes; yes penalty
(Vote): No
My vote: Yes, have a penalty, enforce it, if they don't post theirs they get stuck with the last weeks lineup too. The last week part shouldnt be too big of an issue cause most players stick to the same map week after week.
3) Match format
Straight forward as well, check out what -2pacalypse suggested.
Poll: Match FormatKeep (7) 54% 2pac (4) 31% Change up (2) 15% 13 total votes Your vote: Match Format (Vote): Keep
(Vote): 2pac
(Vote): Change up
My vote: Keep - this one is the simplest. I'm iffy on it cause I don't know whats right. But I think its more prudent we get it running smoothly with the current system, then try to fancy it up in the future once we have a solid league going.
4) Maps
No poll needed, I'm not too picky.
5) Player eligibility
Poll: Grandfather in good returning playersCase by Case (5) 56% Yes (4) 44% No (0) 0% 9 total votes Your vote: Grandfather in good returning players (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Case by Case
My vote: Oohhh yeah let em all in More gg more skill! If they can get better so can we. Its fun to play someone a little better - makes you better if you don't choke.
6) Player numbers
Don't exactly understand what you mean here.. Do you want to incorporate a hybrid league? (uuuh no thanks personally lol)
Do you want to go spam posting the sc2 forum? Cause this might just get us flamed for being bw elitists and eventually banned.. I can agree we need a solution though.. Just no idea what. No poll needed, but thoughts would be awesome
7) Managing the league itself
Poll: BWCL?Leave (14) 100% Stay (0) 0% 14 total votes Your vote: BWCL? (Vote): Leave
(Vote): Stay
My vote: Leave - I like it a lot, but its just too much of a hassle and isn't worth all the trouble. Clearly didn't work already so it should go. Don't see why we just cant track all this on a google doc that everyone can edit -_______-
Captains have to be on top of their shit for replays, or at least being in touch with the league admins. Also please have more than one admin. I'm willing to help in anyway needed.
8) Score keeping
Poll: Score system Proleague (9) 82% Keep (2) 18% Other (0) 0% 11 total votes Your vote: Score system (Vote): Keep
(Vote): Proleague
(Vote): Other
My vote: proleague - idc really.. Proleague seems the best cause it works forsure and I don't really have a problem with it. Although we need to account for w.o or both sides w.o ing. A problem proleague does not have.
9) Season's start
After current season and we figure out all of the above should be good
I think the most important thing is to have two or more admins and have the captains on top of their shit. Also skype accounts for all captains and admins should be a must so they can stay in touch easy and have a set place to ping eachother to schedule stuff. 2 reps from each team might also be an option.
Edit: added my vote, and why
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Oops, I misvoted on the BWCL poll. I meant to vote yes, leave BWCL next season and not use it.
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Oh my bad.. I'll make a clearer poll
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Canada4481 Posts
1. I think having a default time at one time during the week, and allowing PP for games to be played out during the entire week up to a certain date to allow for timezones/scheduling etc.
In top foreign leagues, the time zone distribution is the same and everyone can make it for 17CET.
This isn't a top foreign league, nor should it aim to be. It is a recreational/casual league where people without a ton of time on their hands, play some BW with others for some minor competitive fun. If you want a more competitive/top league to play in, there's YSL/ASL/etc.
2. This.Presubmitted lineups, because its better for the league and the players to know who they are playing, so they can practice and prepare. When lineups are submitted late, either there needs to be a penatly, OR make the team default to their previous weeks lineup.
Not to mention, if there are no presubmitted lineups, then that makes EVERYONE at the mercy of the set game-time. A time that is good for Europeans isn't necessarily for people on the US East Coast, or West Coast, or Australia. Since its pretty much universally agreed that not everyone can make a certain time, a system that allows for people to agree to a time amongst themselves is the best.
Proleague doesn't show lineups ahead of time because of match fixing. Prior to match fixing, Proleague did exactly what this league does, presubmitted lineups so people know what to practice. Please don't make up shit and try to pass it off as fact.
3. I'm leaning towards Bo5 (can be ace/no ace) just because of low numbers. It was fine during season 2 for a Bo7+Ace because there were more active teams/players.
4. I think maps are being handled fine atm.
5. I'm for keeping players if they've played in previous DRITs/DRTLs. I like Nazza's idea of having the player play 10-30 recent games on iCCup, and you have them link their match history before they can join. That and have harem sift through them quickly. He's been pretty good at finding out if people have been smurfing.
6. What others have suggested seems okay.
7. This is the one I have the biggest gripe about. BWCL was a bad site. It's good for their format, just not for ours. They used a different format compared to what the DRTL has used previously, and tried to force their format into ours. (# of weeks/lineups at time of match).
BWCL was a different site, and required everyone to basically go to a site and sign up their teams, and have to check that site instead of the thread. People were posting results on the thread, because that's what they were used to, even though it needed to be on the BWCL site as well. It was much simpler to have the entire tournament organized and contained in the DRTL thread on TL, where all the information is there, and where links to replays should be placed.
In order for this to work, the OP needs to be ALWAYS UP TO DATE. We had something like that for the first few weeks during DRTL2, and it was great. That's what I believe to be the reason DRTL2 was so successful. If you can't/don't have the time to be constantly updating the OP, make the OP with a shared TL account like (DRTLeague) or w/e. Make one. Share the info with admins/volunteer admins that are willing to help so that it can always be up to date. I'm more than willing to help with the OP, I'm quite OCD about formatting, and things being as up to date as possible.
8. Score keeping has been trying to be too complicated. Simply, whoever has more wins = top (W=1, L=0). Tied records should look at the direct matchup between the two teams tied.
9. Start whenever you feel you're ready.
Hopefully I didn't forget anything.
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Croatia9500 Posts
On September 14 2012 00:50 Kal_rA wrote:
I think the most important thing is to have two or more admins and have the captains on top of their shit. Also skype accounts for all captains and admins should be a must so they can stay in touch easy and have a set place to ping eachother to schedule stuff. 2 reps from each team might also be an option.
I agree that this is the most important thing. As pucca said, with good communication, a lot of problems can be avoided.
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Rather than go through the list I'm just gonna talk about what should be different from this season.
I.) Dont use BWCL
We need more information displayed in the OP rather than a 3rd party site. So imo we should return to how it was in S1/S2.
II.) OP needs to be updated, allow others to help you if you dont have the time.
We need at the minimum a list of all the teams, their players, their races, their iccup and TL ids, and indicator of who the captain is, as well as an updated liquipedia page. There are people who have been trying to help you with this so if you dont have the time to do everything, use them!
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams.
IV.) Stricter rules and enforcement for late lineups/pp/match results
Maybe we need to pm all the captains to make it absolutely clear what's expected of them.
V.) No off weeks.
It's not as if they reduce W.O.s because you can't choose when you have weeks off, they only serve to lower team activity and increase confusion.
VI.) Downsize if we have to.
Better to have 6 active teams, maybe even with a bo7 ace format, than 8 teams with 2-4 inactive ones.
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On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams.
I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page.
Shot in the dark, but:
Poll: Google docsYes (9) 82% No (2) 18% 11 total votes Your vote: Google docs (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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If it were cheap I'd suggest for us to donate towards a kickstarter to increase the prizepool and more importantly buy a sponsored thread encouraging SC2 players to play DRTL.
I don't know to what extent this would actually work because I don't know much about marketing, but I don't really know where else we could expand our demographic to.
Having someone like nukethestars with a couple thousand of very casual viewers give a shout-out to the league and encourage people to download BW, Play on ICCUp and join DRTL/DRIL, but as I've said I don't know much about marketing.
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On September 14 2012 00:40 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 23:13 empty.bottle wrote:
Also I think that we as players could edit liquipedia with the results. I think Liquipedia, this forum, or any venue where players can edit/update their results commonly is good (assuming accountability/verifiability) in case designated Captains go MIA or anything like that. One key point I'd like to point out is that everyone following or participating in an event wants to see both lineups and results updated regularly. An event loses a lot of hype and interest when you go to the OP for weeks and it appears as if nothing has actually happened. I don't know what the best way is, but having an accessible, updated display of "What matches are coming for this week?" and "What matches have been played/how did they go/here's where to watch them." at the very least should be high on the goal list. Nikon did a great job with this in Season 2 where every week we would see new lineups, new results, and new replay packs posted to the OP. [...]
Another few things that come to mind:
TL.net (page) sucks ball to update it in one thread, opening a thread for each week doesn't solve the problem either but makes it a bit better. Only the OP can edit his first post obviously, hence: even if there two or three people the first post can't be updated. If the other two would just post it in a new thread / an overall thread it could take some time to get the information if you're just an ordinary player, as many people would respond and/or other threads would drown the DRTL Week X post. Any automated system / page would rock, but it seems BWCL didn't work out and there is no other platform I can think of that would offer a similar system. Assuming that there would be more than one person a few things might work:
1) the "only use TL.net system": register a new account (DRTL or something) and share it with 2-3 persons. Whoever is available updates the first post, messages the people and so on. I don't know what TL.net rules say on that, especially if you have administrators with a negative warn/ban history. I guess you'd ask politely and tell them how and why you need such an account, before you run into things you could avoid.
2) Use Liquipedia. Rules, Mappacks and so on are in the R&S thread, the results can be there too, but don't need to be. A big link on top or at the bottom links to the Liquipedia page. This will tell you the results (which any team leader can upate) and maybe link to replay packs (upload at mediafire and such). That's doable. However, that needs the players and the team's managers support. And it should be the duty of a person to update these posts, if (let's say the) winning team misses to update LP within X days, they will receive some sort of punishment.
3) Use google's spreadsheets. Multiple admins could share an email adress and update tables on their google mail. This table could be viewed by everyone, but edited by only a few. It would be linked in the R&S thread, quite similar to Option 1.
€: lol sniped by Kal_rA :x
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^i like the liquipedia option too.. everyone has access and can edit (and it might lead to you making edits on other pages too!)
Its just not as straightforward as the googledocs, but since its so closely tied to tl it could work nicely.
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On September 14 2012 01:52 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams. I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page.
It's just gonna be another 3rd party site that some will use, most won't. I don't really see what it has to do with signups anyway.
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Players wouldn't have to use it, it's more a way to help out organizers to update their scores. You can see that by clicking on it, no sign-ups necessary. Only if you actually want to update scores etc. as non-official staff, you'd need an account. So, either do it the hardcore version (like Kal_rA said), or only as support for coverage purposes in addition to TL.net threads.
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Google Docs is actually incredibly easy to use, so I endorse it.
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I voted Proleague scoring, but I don't actually know what it is. What I'd like is football-style scoring: 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss.
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Draws aren't even possible in a Bo5 or Bo7 BW series, so I don't see the point of a system that accommodates for draws.
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On September 14 2012 02:34 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 01:52 Kal_rA wrote:On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
III.) Everyone has to sign up
Captain's shouldn't be able to sign up their entire team. If a person is active, they can spare the time to sign up again.
New players/late signups should be handled by the organizers and sent to the least active teams. I'm telling you man.. Google docs are the shit. Everyone can edit (you can turn edits off for non captains if you want), everyone can see, everyone can communicate and post the lineup and maybe even the time the game is going to be played. I've used docs for both school and for work and can tell you its a lifesaver and amazing for keeping everyone on the same page. It's just gonna be another 3rd party site that some will use, most won't. I don't really see what it has to do with signups anyway.
Except.... you don't need tedious sign ups and is accessible pretty much anywhere.
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I was hoping to play next season, so there's +1 :D
Ideally I'd also do a few battle reports now and then, tiny bits of extra exposure cant hurt ^^
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United States11390 Posts
On September 14 2012 01:45 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 00:50 Kal_rA wrote:
I think the most important thing is to have two or more admins and have the captains on top of their shit. Also skype accounts for all captains and admins should be a must so they can stay in touch easy and have a set place to ping eachother to schedule stuff. 2 reps from each team might also be an option. I agree that this is the most important thing. As pucca said, with good communication, a lot of problems can be avoided.
Yeah, at the very least, should add cobaltblu as an admin for the league.
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I endorse and feel the same way about these points.
On September 14 2012 01:46 L3gendary wrote:
I.) Dont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCLDont use BWCL
II.) OP needs to be updated, allow others to help you if you dont have the time.
III.) Everyone has to sign up
On September 14 2012 02:02 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
2) Use Liquipedia. Rules, Mappacks and so on are in the R&S thread, the results can be there too, but don't need to be. A big link on top or at the bottom links to the Liquipedia page. This will tell you the results (which any team leader can upate) and maybe link to replay packs (upload at mediafire and such).
I agree with 2Pacalypse- on the match format, except i think BO1 is better than BO3:
3) Match format
- Four bo1 1v1s games
- One bo1 2v2 game (2v2 game can be played by same players who played 1v1)
Also i think the time works better as it was in season 2. Saturday because of time zones saturday is best beacuse it is in the middle of the week-end for almost everybody, and i can move the DRIT to Sunday for future seasons (if there will be future seasons)
Season 2 worked quite well imo. People individually signed up, at the start of the season a player-pick like season 2 would be nice. (i made a mistake here signing up despa, but i knew all that we where all active and was hyped)
Also, i think Nikon should reserve the right to deny team entries that in previous seasons have fallen apart. If they do want to enter, make them change names at least.
Admin(s) of the tournament must do 3 fundamental things:
- Update OP at least once a week.
- Provide regular replay packs [submitted by the captain of the winning team] for casting and player browsing
- Be the intermediary for the lineups.
- resolve issues as they come along.
In season 2 you did a great job with all of this. This season you where alone.
I don' t think any 1 person is enough to do all this. I already have trouble with 32 players, with 60+ its impossible. So you need more admins. As i stated before i am willing to help as an admin, and if you don' t want that you need at least other 2 serious people who are willing to commit time and effort to that.
And as for rules and penalties, i have to be honest, i never saw anyone enforcing them. Okay its difficult to find a balance beetwen being stricted and being more free, but not being stricted at all is no good, and not being free at all is no good.
Sometimes you gotta put your foot down. Sometimes you gotta let it be. This balance is key to being a good admin.
With these things, i think season 4 will work efficently.
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All I know is, seasons 1 and 2 were managed a lot better in terms of the league itself (season 1 had really poor team management. T1 missed playoffs with 1 win and we had more than 1 wo losses with one being we take all the played sets and we still lose because only 2 people showed up). Season 2 is the best imo, in terms of team and league management, BWCL just... I don't know. Sucks. That's all I can say about BWCL thing.
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On September 14 2012 20:22 Djagulingu wrote:
All I know is, seasons 1 and 2 were managed a lot better in terms of the league itself (season 1 had really poor team management. T1 missed playoffs with 1 win and we had more than 1 wo losses with one being we take all the played sets and we still lose because only 2 people showed up). Season 2 is the best imo, in terms of team and league management, BWCL just... I don't know. Sucks. That's all I can say about BWCL thing.
If you look at the leagues from a management point of view, while season 1 had very bad participation and was extremely spotty for most captains, it still was very well run and maintained which is kind of why there was a huge influx of players for season 2... Saying that the league which prompted the highest player increase was not the best is a flaw in terms of saving a player base.
After season 1, many top caliber coaches and players wanted to help out with DRTL because they saw it as a league of good potential, but they quickly withdrew in Season 2 for the most part as far as I can tell.
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Due to the inability to users who regularly update LP I'd say use the Google Doc have the administrator or find someone who can update LP once a week by looking at the organized Google doc whether it be a spread sheet or just a document. Also Google Docs can allow you to place notes inside to each match so if there was a w/o one can describe the reasoning instead of digging and digging in 10 pages of thread discussion. Use both is what I am saying.
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I won't comment on the whole thing and I haven't read much of the replies yet either, but I wanted to point out that managing a 5 player team vs. a 3 player team is something entirely different. If the matches were BO3s, I wouldn't be surprised if in the end, more players/games would've been played overall. If this is constantly causing teams to disband/discouraging people to play in the league, it might be worth considering a change.
I'm not saying this is the issue behind it (actually I've no idea), these are just my thoughts watching Birdie doing a great job of operating Stealth Bunnies. There's not a lot of people who have enough time/dedication and the right approach to do this, and even if there's someone like that, one lazy unreliable player can still ruin the whole thing. This is something you would see happen a lot less in a 3 player team as everyone knows each other well and interact on a daily basis anyway (ideally).
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Here's a first draft of the ELO ranks I promised: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368754
Three player teams would mean that if 60 players sign up, that's 20 teams; and 60 players is considered a relatively small number. Even if the teams total 5 players to provide for people who can't make it, if we manage 100 players next season, that's still 20 teams. 12 teams would be more doable if we don't get many but if we do get a lot, Bo5 is much better.
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Alright, I read the replies, and the general sentiment is pretty clear. I'm going to reread everything after today's games and form a general frame of operations and such.
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EPT
