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Tornado Terran's newfound weakness

Forum Index > BW General
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jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 03 2006 09:00 GMT
#1
Every NaDa fan knows that NaDa plays somewhat conservative in the beginning with harass while builds up to overrun the enemy.

After watching both the Mania vs sea.s2 replay and watching the boxer vs nada sky proleague vod i think the pro gamers have found a way to counter nada.

contain him and he will choke.

any thoughts?


reach did a gutsy thing on nada at blizzcon proxying INSIDE his base but unseen
Do your best, God will do the rest.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
January 03 2006 09:23 GMT
#2
he got damaged bad early by the drops so he couldnt do much against the contain for a while. its one online game vs someone who i dont think is even semi pro under extenuating circumstances. containing nada is much easier said than done.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
inkblot
Profile Joined December 2004
United States1250 Posts
January 03 2006 09:24 GMT
#3
Tornado terran is a TvP only build. Basically, expand, turtle, build a bunch of facts, move out when you have alot of units. It usually means sieging all your tanks at once instead of slowly moving tanks forward too, as this is much faster and lets you put the pressure on toss immediately. So, neither Mania v Nada or Boxer v Nada has any relevance to Tornado Terran play.
exalted
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States3612 Posts
January 03 2006 09:31 GMT
#4
Ok, whew, I thought I would have to respond to this post.

I just watched the Mania vs Nada, incredible defiler control AND science vessel control, really was amazing everytime Nada tried to engage the darkswarms went down, and then when he ran a plague smacked his ass.

Plus, I'm going to use Nydus canals a lot more in the future, there is only so much Sunkens can do once the Terran has 3/3 rines.
too easy
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
January 03 2006 09:39 GMT
#5
On January 03 2006 18:24 inkblot wrote:
Tornado terran is a TvP only build. Basically, expand, turtle, build a bunch of facts, move out when you have alot of units. It usually means sieging all your tanks at once instead of slowly moving tanks forward too, as this is much faster and lets you put the pressure on toss immediately. So, neither Mania v Nada or Boxer v Nada has any relevance to Tornado Terran play.
nada ORIGINALLY got the nick tornado terran for building a lot of tanks in tvz with fast siege/unsiege advancing, only later did it become a synonym for a tvp style
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 03 2006 09:52 GMT
#6
oh

POONED
Do your best, God will do the rest.
TeRRan`UseR
Profile Joined December 2004
Canada692 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-01-03 10:19:59
January 03 2006 10:18 GMT
#7
I remember the Nada vrs OOv series a year ago where OOv beat NaDa badly. It was worth 5 liquibet points and a lot of people were unhappy. Each game was pretty much the same; Oov contained NaDa with a large blockade. Nada was forced to go mass drops but did little or no damage and was constantly attacked by OOv's small wraith armies.
AKAs FreeloSS @USwest Freel0ss @Europe
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
January 03 2006 10:23 GMT
#8
yeah beating somebody like nada is certainly that simple

gee whillikers why didnt anyone else think of that you must be a GENIUS
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Larva
Profile Joined November 2005
United States363 Posts
January 03 2006 10:25 GMT
#9
Uh, won't most people technically "choke" when they are contained? That gives the person who is containing a huge advantage in the game, and that puts his/her opponent in a big predicament that is pretty hard to get out if the person containing is very good at it. Even if a person did break a good containment, the opponent would probably have much of the map, obviously giving the person a big advantage. If you compare two newcomers in SC, and one contains, the person contained will do something to get out of it, such as drops or massing units until maxed (battlecruisers, carriers, etc.). So, even if he did break his containment, his opponent will probably have more units to kill his/her opponent, even if his/her containment was broken.

Point is, I even "choke" at containments anyway. I try to get a fast hive, so I can tech to defiler faster. For me, dark swarm and plague help so much in breaking ZvT containments. They say it's some cheap shit I do, but who cares, if I win by four pool or massing guardians, a win is still a win.
LOL AT THIS GUY ABOVE ME.
HappyManRun
Profile Joined November 2005
1111 Posts
January 03 2006 10:41 GMT
#10
Haha Larva I found your statement most amusing...

Player B:
GOGO contain him!!
Player A:
OMG CONTAINED! *choke choke choke* ies of athima*

^^
I happy, thus I run.
A3iL3r0n
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States2196 Posts
January 03 2006 10:48 GMT
#11
I think the point is that Nada needs to play more like Boxer.
My psychiatrist says I have deep-seated Ragneuroses :(
yknarf
Profile Joined December 2004
United States90 Posts
January 03 2006 11:56 GMT
#12
Why did he do that crazy ebay thing at the end? he didnt even wait for them to reach boxer's base
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27172 Posts
January 03 2006 11:57 GMT
#13
Because he didnt scan boxers base like a chump. He just wanted to get by the first line of defense, and thought he would be homefree after that.
ModeratorGodfather
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 03 2006 11:57 GMT
#14
oops i meant he starts to play frantic not choke
hehe

the 7 ebays were damn frantic i think
Do your best, God will do the rest.
azndng
Profile Joined July 2004
United States344 Posts
January 03 2006 11:59 GMT
#15
On January 03 2006 19:48 A3iL3r0n wrote:
I think the point is that Nada needs to play more like Boxer.


dont' say gibberish shit like that. now the thread is gonna be about "boxer sucks.. nada >>>> boxer"
ManaBlue
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Canada10458 Posts
January 03 2006 12:15 GMT
#16
On January 03 2006 20:59 azndng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2006 19:48 A3iL3r0n wrote:
I think the point is that Nada needs to play more like Boxer.


dont' say gibberish shit like that. now the thread is gonna be about "boxer sucks.. nada >>>> boxer"


Wouldn't be surprising.
ModeratorTL VOD legends: Live2Win, hasuprotoss, Cadical, rinizim, Mani, thedeadhaji, Kennigit, SonuvBob, yakii, fw, pheer, CDRdude, pholon, Uraeus, zatic, baezzi. The contributors make this site what it is. *Props to FakeSteve for respecting the guitar gods*
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 12:35 GMT
#17
whats this ebay thing I keep hearing about
I have a suspicion
Moderator
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51574 Posts
January 03 2006 12:41 GMT
#18
why is eri up at 4am

he's probably searching porn on ebay
Commentator
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 12:45 GMT
#19
I masturbated 3 hours ago thank you
Moderator
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27172 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-01-03 12:54:30
January 03 2006 12:54 GMT
#20
NaDa was contained in the top left by Boxer all game. Boxer had such a bead on Nada's ships that he might as well have played with vis on. It was a rediculous display of BW prowess. NaDa has one last chance to break out of this containment and tries to doom drop Boxer's main. First he needs something to distract the anti air for his ships.

Sooo... Step 1: Use your minerals.

[image loading]


Step 2: FLY BABY FLY

[image loading]


Step 3: Sneak under the radar!

[image loading]


Step 4: Dont forget to scan behind the defensive line to see what awaits you... o... too late.

[image loading]


That is the Nada EBAY float that was truely spectacular in its failure, and made Boxer look all godlike. To be fair, Boxer scanned the ebays just after they lifted, so he has ample time to prepare.
ModeratorGodfather
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 12:58 GMT
#21
oh sweet

at least boxer can still amaze me =]
Moderator
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27172 Posts
January 03 2006 13:00 GMT
#22
The minimap pretty much tells you the rest of the game.
ModeratorGodfather
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
January 03 2006 13:26 GMT
#23
I bet the crowd and announcers went absolutely nuts during that. Man, I just want to see that now.
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 03 2006 14:09 GMT
#24
On January 03 2006 22:00 Manifesto7 wrote:
The minimap pretty much tells you the rest of the game.


lol the minimap said game after boxer took almost eVERY SINGLE NATURAL
Do your best, God will do the rest.
SpeaKinRiddleS
Profile Joined October 2005
United States148 Posts
January 03 2006 14:30 GMT
#25
as an enormous and long standing fan of nada's 200/200 3-3 tornado technique, I find this to be an interesting thread.

I think the clumping and splash attack nature of it makes it invincible. The surface area, if you will, allows only so many protoss units to actually attack at once. The rest are essensially just waiting in line. Therefore, even if theoretically the protoss could get 400 units instead of 200 they could never break the 3-3 200/200 tornado.

The harassment isn't even nessesary. It's just to keep the protoss on its toes so it can't build 13752735723 gateways. More expos just means more units pumping out faster. The 200/200 3-3 tornado simply renders this no longer advantageous to the protoss. Ground units simply can't beat it.

I remember downloading a skyinthesea TvP tornado replay pack like 2 years ago. All the games were on temple. The only person who could even touch NaDa's tornado technique was breeze[akuta] by using 4 shuttles to drop zealot bombs and loads of units into his main to slow him down. Although now his technique is much more fine tuned and unsusceptable to interference.
Dont let school interfere with your education
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17733 Posts
January 03 2006 14:35 GMT
#26
So if I contain Nada i can win? ^_^a no...
I think person above explained it 3-3 terran metal is incredibly difficult or impossible to break.
I seriously want to see that Boxer vs. Nada game on R-point now
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27172 Posts
January 03 2006 14:37 GMT
#27
Boxer didnt upgrade armour, only atk. I dont know the math, but i rarely see pro t's upgrade armour in tvt.
ModeratorGodfather
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 14:41 GMT
#28
yes the 3-3 part applies to tvp, armour is generally only useful for air in tvt (bc vs goliath and wraith vs valk), or vs infantery lol
Moderator
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51574 Posts
January 03 2006 14:43 GMT
#29
IIRC, Mani said in an RWA

'3-3 melts protoss like butter'
Commentator
Xeroth
Profile Joined July 2005
United States432 Posts
January 03 2006 14:48 GMT
#30
Obv.

+5 per attack on tanks is amazing, And against damage of 20, 30, 70, and 125, armor is less than stellar for toss, so most rarely get it.

The upgrade advantage in TvP definitely goes to terran.
Everyones favorite hick.
SpeaKinRiddleS
Profile Joined October 2005
United States148 Posts
January 03 2006 14:49 GMT
#31
oh yea I forgot to make fun of you.

You think simply containing somebody with pro status will make them 'choke'?

First of all I think you're seriously under estimating tank range. If a terran wants to get 2 dropships and a few vultures out of his base 3 minutes after his expansion he will.

Secondly how could you possibly assume he has never been faced with the situation of being contained before? If that's all it took to beat NaDa he'd be hard pressed to break C- on pgtour.
Dont let school interfere with your education
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
January 03 2006 14:52 GMT
#32
That is the Nada ebay float that was truely spectacular in its failure, and made Boxer look all godlike. To be fair, Boxer scanned the ebays just after they lifted, so he has ample time to prepare.

You people do know that turrets have priority for attacking dropships?-.-
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27172 Posts
January 03 2006 14:54 GMT
#33
Tell that to NaDa.
ModeratorGodfather
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
January 03 2006 14:56 GMT
#34
Hm... containing Nada in the first place isn't easy -_-;;
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
SpeaKinRiddleS
Profile Joined October 2005
United States148 Posts
January 03 2006 14:58 GMT
#35
I'm surprised boxer didn't target the dropships with his freakishly fast hands
Dont let school interfere with your education
seNsles[s]
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany26 Posts
January 03 2006 15:00 GMT
#36
On January 03 2006 23:52 Sfydjklm wrote:
Show nested quote +
That is the Nada ebay float that was truely spectacular in its failure, and made Boxer look all godlike. To be fair, Boxer scanned the ebays just after they lifted, so he has ample time to prepare.

You people do know that turrets have priority for attacking dropships?-.-


I wouldn´t be too sure about that when I used ebays to cover my dropships some time ago it worked quite nicely... Doesn´t matter if turrets have priority or not (I think they haven´t)
Nobody is perfect but I´m really fucking close...
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 15:09 GMT
#37
erm
no they don't

you need to manually target a dropship with turrets or it will fire at the first thing it can fire at until it can kill the thing it first started firing at. using engbays or barracks to draw turret fire is pretty common and EXTREMELY effective unless he has his turrets hotkeyed and ready.

really it's often a necessity against turtling terrans.

Moderator
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 15:10 GMT
#38
speakinriddles that's just what he did, that's why it was a good move.
Moderator
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 03 2006 16:33 GMT
#39
On January 03 2006 20:57 jkillashark wrote:
oops i meant he starts to play frantic not choke
hehe

the 7 ebays were damn frantic i think

On January 03 2006 23:49 SpeaKinRiddleS wrote:
oh yea I forgot to make fun of you.

You think simply containing somebody with pro status will make them 'choke'?

First of all I think you're seriously under estimating tank range. If a terran wants to get 2 dropships and a few vultures out of his base 3 minutes after his expansion he will.

Secondly how could you possibly assume he has never been faced with the situation of being contained before? If that's all it took to beat NaDa he'd be hard pressed to break C- on pgtour.


i already said i didn't mean choke, i meant he can get frantic because progamers are starting to prey on his early conservativness by containing him and recently he has not been boding well in being contained. eg games against oov, mania, and recently just boxer. i was merely stating a pattern and not blasting his progamer status. if it hurts your feelings i'm sorry i made you cry.

first: he did get them out, if you watched the game, he gets out a large groups of tanks and gols.

second: yes he's probably faced it before but the degree of progamer containing him was pretty darn good (boxer, chae yunsung). even against mania he couldn't break out of the containment very well. he exhausted his resources and his army died of starvation. his desperate ebay move was because he knew he was going to economically die if he didn't break out of the darn containment (which he couldn't) or go directly for the heart of boxer (which he failed)

just like julyzerg's style was analyzed and getting countered with defensive play
Do your best, God will do the rest.
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
January 03 2006 17:24 GMT
#40
lame i've always loved nada and i think boxers a cheap ass XDDDd ah oh well. hm btw boxer's not called chae yunsung? or were you referring to iloveoov..
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28783 Posts
January 03 2006 18:02 GMT
#41
erm containing the opponent is usually the way to win tvt against any player not just nada lol.. so when he loses it's pretty natural for him to lose the most common way to lose tvt. that's like saying a zerg is weak against fast expand terran cause he lost against it a couple of times, or that a particular protoss is weak pvz against ultraling or something..

Moderator
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
January 03 2006 19:47 GMT
#42
Nada is a dirty hacker and he crumbles under the contain. When do you think he'll give his retirement announcement?
ToT)MidiaN(
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
England2183 Posts
January 03 2006 20:37 GMT
#43
He didn't lose vs mania because of containment anyway, the only reason mania won was because his early drops had so much success. Without that early advantage mania would've had no hope of winning.
Nothing worth doing is devoid of risk
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13365 Posts
January 03 2006 20:50 GMT
#44
Yep. I'm surprised Nada came so close to winning in that game.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
k3fka
Profile Joined November 2004
Argentina1267 Posts
January 03 2006 20:54 GMT
#45
this rep is like the only rep where nada had more than 5 vessels and lost t vs z :D
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
January 04 2006 00:57 GMT
#46
NaDa needs a style revamp. He plays with the same passive style every game. Modern day macro whores take risks to grow bigger (think Oov, Pusan, etc). NaDa still plays it safe and it's a miracle that he can keep up as well as he does. He needs to learn to be less predictable, able to macro whore, play his usual or get aggressive at a whim.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-01-04 01:39:10
January 04 2006 01:39 GMT
#47
On January 04 2006 05:54 k3fka wrote:
this rep is like the only rep where nada had more than 5 vessels and lost t vs z :D

haha:D

Yeah...He's a god with mass-micro or whatevr to call it.
Enter a Uh
jkillashark
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States5262 Posts
January 04 2006 06:46 GMT
#48
On January 04 2006 09:57 Mortality wrote:
NaDa needs a style revamp. He plays with the same passive style every game. Modern day macro whores take risks to grow bigger (think Oov, Pusan, etc). NaDa still plays it safe and it's a miracle that he can keep up as well as he does. He needs to learn to be less predictable, able to macro whore, play his usual or get aggressive at a whim.


i totally agree. when july's style was analyzed he changed it up against iris. i think nada needs to change it up and not just play pockets and premiums such as minimum aq
Do your best, God will do the rest.
HeavenS
Profile Joined August 2004
Colombia2259 Posts
January 04 2006 07:28 GMT
#49
On January 03 2006 21:54 Manifesto7 wrote:
NaDa was contained in the top left by Boxer all game. Boxer had such a bead on Nada's ships that he might as well have played with vis on. It was a rediculous display of BW prowess. NaDa has one last chance to break out of this containment and tries to doom drop Boxer's main. First he needs something to distract the anti air for his ships.

Sooo... Step 1: Use your minerals.

[image loading]


Step 2: FLY BABY FLY

[image loading]


Step 3: Sneak under the radar!

[image loading]


Step 4: Dont forget to scan behind the defensive line to see what awaits you... o... too late.

[image loading]


That is the Nada EBAY float that was truely spectacular in its failure, and made Boxer look all godlike. To be fair, Boxer scanned the ebays just after they lifted, so he has ample time to prepare.

wow...boxer owns.
Im cooler than the other side of the pillow.
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