EPTThe coaches point is that graphics may be a necessary upgrade, but they don't automatically make a good esport. For that, you need the fundamental elements, which SC2 still falls short on as of now.
[Interview] KTF Coach Jung Soo Yeong - Page 12
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
The coaches point is that graphics may be a necessary upgrade, but they don't automatically make a good esport. For that, you need the fundamental elements, which SC2 still falls short on as of now. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On May 31 2012 22:39 ShadeR wrote: Games are tied to technology but sports are not. They should stop calling it eSports if they think that way, it's just misguided. Because its not sport, its commercial product forced into competitive frame. Well it still makes it sport in sense of competition but you get the idea. When the times will come when publishers will stop relying on copies sold as some indicator of success but rather focus on user-base. Activision in their current mindset will never release an Esport game in full meaning of the word. . Give a product for 5 cent make people play it for 20 years, disregard developer/publisher ambitions and start evolving the term of computer gaming and we will see. Look at Riot they only scratched the idea of this yet so many SC2 fans is screaming how its possible that LoL has so many stream viewers. Riot will never win any award for most innovative game nor will they bank their investment ASAP (sales sales! how many boxes! marketing). But those types of investment build legacy of "Esports" Valve was eaten because they tried to monetize it with CS Source, now we will see how Blizzard will fare, still they have 2 boxes to sale until we can judge so they already succeded aye? | ||
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.vid
Croatia227 Posts
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy. But you seem to forget that BW passed the test of time. It actually became a real sport in one nation, because people didn't care about the technology behind the game (i.e. graphics engine, modern ai that does everything for you, etc) or about maximally monetizing it. I think of all the competitive games out there, BW and Quake are the games whose skill cap mostly depends on humans, not the technology behind it. Every now and then you get some prodigy of a player that seems to push the boundaries of what was thought to be possible to a whole new level. Sure, the AI in SC2 might be miles ahead of BW, sure the graphics are sweet, sure the game is designed to have as little as possible of the "useless" micro (how SC2 crowd tend to call it). At the same time, it reduced the amount of what actual players have to do in order to surpass every obstacle ahead of them and in my opinion, the skill cap now solely depends on future Blizzard balance patches. My final thoughts would be, even though eSport exists it will never again transcend the boundaries of the virtual world, like BW did, specially not on foreign scene. Why? Well, because foreign corporations that stand behind those tournaments, etc, do not really care about anything else then marketing their products, and i.e. Intel (or a similar company) can not market their latest products on old games. That's why we have every 1-2years a new eSports flagship. BW was a thing that happened in right time and right place, and it exploded and created legendary players and stories, heroes and villains, and that's why I love it. Don't be fooled, SC2 foreign scene will last for 2-3 more years and then the corporations will turn to a new game that they can use best to promote their graphic chips, processors, etc. eSport (or should I say competitive gaming, that would be a much more better term) won't fade away anytime soon, but your favorite games behind it will, and you'll feel then just like we (BW crowd) feel now. All there is left to hope for is that a new BW disturbance in the force occurs. Unfortunately, I think that we will have to wait too long for another game to create such a mass effect and transcends the boundaries of eSport and becomes a real sport, like BW did. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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.vid
Croatia227 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Yurie
11819 Posts
On June 01 2012 02:25 Garmer wrote: but the expansion make SC2 in somw way, a new game....but it's true that a decline in the community is possible, even with the expansions Hasn't there already been a large decline in the community? Most likely an upswing will happen with each add-on, yet I personally think each time it will fall a bit further until we end with a scene like foreign BW or AoE 2. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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BreakerD
United States159 Posts
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy. Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea. Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness) Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself. IMO your definition of how technology is tied to esport is mostly wrong and partially right. Key word "Sport." When you think of sports you think of the people aka the fans. If there arent that much fans you as an sport lose. Remember legacy arent suppose to be passed down, people are suppose to create legacy for the game. The coach's thought of BW and esport as synonymous is more than highly true, because when koreans think of esport the first thing that pops in their mind will always be BW. Korea will always be the Mecca of Esports as long as they produce and obtain the strongest players. Just cuz they fight doesnt mean jack squat. | ||
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hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 01 2012 02:21 .vid wrote: what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games. Counter Strike 1.6 would prove you wrong. | ||
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.vid
Croatia227 Posts
cs1.6 have their own private millionaire called arbalet behind them. :> | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
The real Counter Strikes (not CSS) development is very much like Brood Wars imo. The games are very similar in the sens that they conquered the scene by them selves, they were not hyped up by companies and they became more than just a niche interest for gamers (at least that was the case for Counter Strike here in Sweden and Starcraft in Korea). | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: Nice article, these types of things should continue to be done to bridge the gap as things move from BW to SC2. If it must be done then at least never forget where it all came from and how it al started and who was there to build it. On the subject of SC2 being less fun to watch than BW, its ridiculous to argue, because no one will ever change their mind. There are hundreds of easy ways to convince yourself one or the other is true before youd have to actually do any thinking instead of purely feeling your preference. But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately. This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion. Thanks for that minor rant, I think it's totally spot on and many people should read it. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV The thing about expansions is that in the competitive sense, they will not be "expansions", they will essentially be new games. So while the title "Starcraft 2" will technically last longer than 2-3 years, each new expansion will be a hard reset on design, balance, overall features, everything. You won't have one game lasting 9-10 years, you will have 3 games lasting 3 years at best. In order for the game to truly develop, and players to show high level of play, the game needs to remain virtually the same for a long period of time (the constant patching alone is problematic, let alone the drastic changes in expansions). Expansions will not help competitive SC2 last longer, if anything they'll hurt it. Blizzard is pretty much the only party that will benefit from SC2 expansions. | ||
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV Yes, which is called artifical longevity. If it weren't for HotS coming out so soon then SC2 would dwindle very fast. Good thing the beta is only a few weeks away. As for the other guy talking about technology. The reason why a lot of games are still prevalent today is because of their gameplay first and foremost. The biggest problem Blizzard faces right now is the fact they have one too many hands in the cookie jar. | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: Right now I find SC2 fun but not as fun as BW. For SC2. I thought the game would be easy but it's not. The concept of micro, macro, and mindgame is all still there....even at a lower skill ceiling. BW was a lucky accident that has much more depth and flair because the units are designed to be more exciting and powerful. I prefer BW because it's a superior game. SC2 disappoints me because the units in the game are uncreative compared to BW. Why the fuck would they remove exciting units like reaver and vulture? Why would they remove mutalisk stacking/micro? Why did they make hydra that can shoot ground only and call it roach? Why in the world would they make a marine2 and call it marauder????? Units like reavers and vultures are what made BW so fun to watch and they remove it for no apparent reason. stupid idiots. I think they asked 100 people in the company to make sc2. They couldn't decide on the design for most if not all units so they just "average" out everyone's idea and so as a result we get nothing but bland units because it's the only way that they can get people to agree with it. It's a safe way to design a video game. I'm sure someone at blizzard right now would make sc2 as good as bw but his opinion is probably not getting through simply because there is a committee. BW was clearly made by a group of genius so they don't have to cave to other people's approval. I know many game designers IRL and most of them are fucking retarded when it come to video game designs itself. Yes, they are good at the technical part but that's about it. Most of these people are not what we call "gamers" they are nerds that happen to play video games. I look at HOTS units and I think they are even more retardedly designed than the units in sc2. Hell, they are even removing units from sc2 to make room for some units in HOTS. what the fuck? don't get me wrong, sc2 is still a pretty good game for today's standard(modern warfare 2.5 anyone?). But comparing sc2 to bw is like comparing mainstream music from today to the 60s or 70s. P.S. I'm still glad that SC2 is a go-to-game sport for nerds. but just like sport fans in real life, the fans usually don't understand what the fuck is really going on in the game. So honestly it doesn't matter if the game is boring or not because the viewers can't tell what is good or bad. For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad? I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused  | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On June 02 2012 00:39 kemoryan wrote: I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused I had trouble admitting it, but he has a very good point. | ||
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MicrowaveMess
United States42 Posts
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad? Epic post king dt you are right on the money. I like to call that the "Dane Cook" effect. I have young reletives who never saw stand up comedy until they saw Dane Cook. Having no one to compare to they thought he was the funniest comedian ever. When I tried to show them Eddie Murphy Raw they refused to watch it because it was "too old" and "he looks stupid in a purple suit" | ||
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AsymptoticClimax
United Kingdom249 Posts
He raises a fair point about SC2 not being up to standard of BW and fair enough. I think Blizzard are going to have to make some risks and drastic changes to sc2 in the up and coming 2 expansions to make it at the same level BW is in terms of aesthetics. and remember bw has been out what? 13 years? and arguably became an esports around 3rd year of release. (I think). Starcraft 2 is only in it's second year. give it time and let it mature I seriously hope sc2 can live up to it's predecessors name because so far it's not although it is a great game. | ||
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