If you derail this thread to argue about SC2 vs BW in any context other than that of the interview (e.g. saying things like "colosi suck" or "all BW fans are elitist jerks!"), I will ban you for at least a week, if not more. This is your only warning. I added this page 17
After achieving 100 wins in the OGN Starleague, Stork vented some grievances he has been harbouring. Stork made some strident remarks about Kespa's indifference towards BW after they diverted their attention towards SC2.
On 22nd May, Stork defeated CJ Entus' Horang2 in the Tving Starleague 2012 Ro16 Day 3 held at iParkmall in Yongsan, to achieve the record of 100 wins in an OGN individual league. Stork joined the company of Boxer and Yellow as the third player to achieve 100 wins.
After giving his thoughts on achieving that record, Stork expressed his opinion about the new BW-SC2 Proleague. He stressed, "I'm not sure what other players think but Boxer hyung once emphasized that a players council [like a players union] should be formed. Honestly, there are many unsatisfactory things about Kespa. When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening."
"Ever since Kespa started running SC2 side by side, they couldn't care less about BW. The final versions of the Starleague maps were not much different from the beta versions. Actually, when progamers compete, they are putting a lot on the line. There is no avenue for players to talk about these things. There is no place to give or receive feedback."
Because of the new Proleague format, Stork is going through a lot of distress. During the interview in the reporters' room, tears were welling up in his eyes.
"While Boxer hyung was once our leader, right now there is no one else other than myself to express the players' grievances on their behalf. It would be good if Kespa can take into account the opinions of the players. Although corporations play a role in forming esports leagues, without the fans, these leagues would not exist. I hope Kespa can be more considerate of the position the players are in", Stork emphasized.
To conclude his interview, Stork voiced the following comments: "This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them. So it would be good if there is an institution for the players. Although Kespa has engaged in communication with fans, there needs to be an avenue for communication between the players and Kespa."
I'm very thankful to Stork for speaking up so that more people are aware of how difficult this period is for the players. I hope people will be more sensitive to the hardships that they're going through. Stork is a true leader.
So glad he is speaking up about the problems, sadly it just seems like kespa dont care and wants to kill off BW as fast as posible without regards for the players -_-
Around the time when Jaedong was getting royally screwed on his free agency, I remember thinking, "Man, they really need a players association". It's nice to see someone piping up about this.
Poor stork
Honestly, this Proleague should have been delayed so players could have had proper time to prepare for SC2 pure. The hybrid format is just a mess.
Kespa needs to listen to their players. I could feel their frustration just from watching the games, although that might have been more of my frustrations then theirs. Anyways, this players council has to be formed. This is getting ridiculous.
On May 23 2012 07:05 2Pacalypse- wrote: Finally someone to speak up his mind and not the usual "it is what it is" bullshit interview answers we've been getting lately.
I knew Stork is my second favorite progamer for a reason <3 (Sorry, no one can beat Reach for #1 spot!).
Most players are either too PC, too afraid of the consequences or too young to speak up. Stork is none of these.
Kespa seems to be in a "nice" mode lately, so hopefully after such public statements by one of the greatest currently active players, they'd listen to his words and assist the players through some kind of representative body.
It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
On May 23 2012 07:17 koreasilver wrote: It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
Stork is so beautiful. I hope they can do something about it. Was this interview taken during the opening day? Is it about SC2 switch or only about bw maps? I hope he is not distresed about the whole decision.
My respect, I didn't expect anyone to step up for a moment to say something like this. But I guess, it was just too much. Would be really nice if someone could go the way of Boxer. The players really do need it.
really need something like that ridiculous of kespa to make players play both games
can see the deterioration of the hybrid league (kt getting rookies to play for sc2 and then being rubbish at bw, e.g. lizzy). not saying that it's bad that they're doing it, they are doing what it takes to win and i don't know how kespa thought this was going to turn out
i feel for the players who are playing in the osl the most though ;\
On May 23 2012 07:17 koreasilver wrote: It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
Yes I remember that as well. I didn't want to include it in the op because I wanted people to focus on Stork's message rather than talk about Savior. But you're right, it is quite sad, that conversation between Boxer and Savior and Savior's response was quite telling, for me anyway.
On May 23 2012 07:17 koreasilver wrote: It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
On May 23 2012 06:56 SlowBullets wrote: Stork, this is why you're my favorite player to ever play the game.
Was gonna say that as well.
same. Who else is candid in the pro scene these days? Only Stork would talk about getting drunk and passing out in the bathroom during an interview He's the only one with balls to step up and tell it like it is. Thank God it was someone from TBLS so hopefully it doesn't get brushed under the rug
People like to argue KESPA built Korean BW success. But they can't have success if they steam roll the player they rely on for the actual talent and star power. Players needed their own voice in the past and they need it now. Fight the man Stork
So they weren't all ok with switching to SC2. I wonder if at some point pro gamers will make some sort of united stance and say we want to play BW, instead of just retiring like brave.
On May 23 2012 07:37 GoTuNk! wrote: So they weren't all ok with switching to SC2. I wonder if at some point pro gamers will make some sort of united stance and say we want to play BW, instead of just retiring like brave.
Thank you Stork. Massive middle finger to you KeSpa and Blizz, for negotiating a bullshit deal for your own selfish ends, not even considering for one second the effect it would have on others.
I think this isn't just about the switch to SC2, it's also a lot about the way Kespa treats the players in general. As far as I understand it, Kespa can force the players to do what they want and will face no opposition because the players that oppose Kespa won't stay for long. The players have far too little control over what they do. All other sports where such a powerful organisation exists has a player/ team council to counter the weight of said organization. It's about time something like that is implemented into BW (and other games as well - there was actually a huge discussion in the SCII forum about the need for a players council a few months ago).
I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. He's saying this just now that the transition to sc2 is happening. What about all the years before? Boxer have retired a few years ago, not now. It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene. I'm just trying to think what he said, don't summon a shitstorm over me.
I think almost everyone is against the hybrid format at this point except KeSPA itself. I can see their reasoning behind it (keep the BW fans interested while introducing them to SC2), but they completely disregarded the players in the process.
As sad as it is, at this point I think the best course of action for the players is to just focus purely on SC2 and try to catch up to GSL level players as quickly as possible. Practicing both games is causing overall quality to suffer and I doubt KeSPA will be willing to undo the format or revert back to BW (one can dream, though). It's stupid to handicap players at both games when their careers are dependent on being the best of the best.
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. He's saying this just now that the transition to sc2 is happening. What about all the years before? Boxer have retired a few years ago, not now. It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene. I'm just trying to think what he said, don't summon a shitstorm over me.
How can you be good at something when you can't even bring yourself to take fondness in it.
And oh as a Stork fan, I will be lenient about this post. But if issue start to exacerbate, prepare for it.
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. He's saying this just now that the transition to sc2 is happening. What about all the years before? Boxer have retired a few years ago, not now. It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene. I'm just trying to think what he said, don't summon a shitstorm over me.
Why would he say that because of himself, he has a golden hand along with Boxer and Yellow, He has been in every starleague but two since 2006(or before?), he won one OSL one PL, the only thing he hasn't won are two other OSLs, well and most OSL wins. He hasn't any reason to worry, he is one of the most successful players ever. EDIT: I will be a gentleman just cause it is a Stork thread.
someone had to say it. thats why I like Stork so much, hes very expressive (winning or losing / in a positive or negative emotional state) and outspoken.
Finally, I can't believe how long it took for a player to say something like this. Even if some are fine with the transition, its undoubtable many are pissed off.
On May 23 2012 08:11 sheaRZerg wrote: Finally, I can't believe how long it took for a player to say something like this. Even if some are fine with the transition, its undoubtable many are pissed off.
As I said, the WAY the transition is going is the real problem, as it's incredibly hard and unforgiving for the players
YES! Karking yes! This is what I've been saying ever since this format was announced (and a long time before). Kespa is once again screwing over their players (who are the real reason the BW scene succeeded and continues to succeed) just so they can wring out a few more bucks and protect themselves from actually having to take a karking risk. Players are suffering with this transition, which Kespa is handling with all eyes on the bottom line and no eyes on the players--and finally, someone has actually spoken out about it.
This is the reason I have never liked Kespa; their nasty, exploitative attitude towards the players. These players simply NEED a union, they NEED a voice in the way the esports scene is run, and there could be no one better for the role than Syong Byong Goo himself. He's extremely popular with the fans, he's well-established, he probably has the widest social circle in the BW scene at the moment, is on good terms with many players from many teams, and he's also not afraid to speak his mind. I seriously hope Stork actually makes this happen, and hopefully the fans can apply some pressure to Kespa to see that it bears fruit.
In other news, this is also confirmation, if I needed it (I didn't), that Stork is and always will be my favorite player. SYONG BYONG GOO!
Though I can't claim to really know anything at all about the scene, my two years of following and reading up on brood war have really made me feel for this game. I honestly thought this shit would last forever...
Never really thought much about stork, besides his absurdly good PvT. But to see a veteran like him standing up for the players of the game I love- for the game TL loves--- +1 fan Stork.
Glad to see someone finally speak out, but angered at the same time that he's the only one, and that it took so looong. Kespa has been screwing over the players for a loooooong time now, nobody is going to do anything about it. Kespa's abuse has been going on for a long time. Basically, what those guys said :+ Show Spoiler +
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. He's saying this just now that the transition to sc2 is happening. What about all the years before? Boxer have retired a few years ago, not now.
On May 23 2012 07:54 RageCommodore wrote: I think this isn't just about the switch to SC2, it's also a lot about the way Kespa treats the players in general. As far as I understand it, Kespa can force the players to do what they want and will face no opposition because the players that oppose Kespa won't stay for long. The players have far too little control over what they do. All other sports where such a powerful organisation exists has a player/ team council to counter the weight of said organization. It's about time something like that is implemented into BW (and other games as well - there was actually a huge discussion in the SCII forum about the need for a players council a few months ago).
it is explained in the interview that he had no avenue to express his thoughts on the matter until now. he used the avenue of becoming only the 3rd player to reach 100 single player wins in osl as the platform to voice his concerns, why are people so concerned about the timing? it seems rather logical to me
On May 23 2012 07:17 koreasilver wrote: It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
On May 23 2012 07:17 koreasilver wrote: It's funny, because the interview where Boxer talked about what Stork is referring to is something I remember really vividly. It was an interview where Boxer and Savior got together, and Boxer was hoping that Savior would become a kind of lead figure after him.
It's quite sad if you look back at it with the knowledge and experience of what everyone knows that has happened since then.
Wow...you can just taste the moral dilemma in some of Saviors comments regarding life after being on top.
I dont really see what you are referring to, however. Nothing Boxer talks about is as specific and practical as what Stork is talking about.
-(Boxer to Savior) I ask you to do me a favor. I tried to do this before I went to army but I think it is late for me to do it now. I hope you can create a player union type of thing where influential players gather to create a better environment for less known player base.
▲ Savior= It is impossible to even imagine players from different teams to gather. Too much team based... ▲ Boxer= But if no action is taken, it will only get worse. Even after I returned from army, I thought that it was very unfair for players.
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene.
Is that so wrong? Kespa teams and competitions owe their popularity to these players, and it would be very inappropriate to completely discard or ignore them after basically cutting their careers and everything they worked for by switching to a different game.
I imagine most of the more experienced players are in a similar position. I certainly don't see the rest of TBLS faring a lot better competitively, especially in the long run. They've been burning themselves out on Brood War for the last 5+ years to reach an A/S class status, it's incredibly unlikely that they can keep the enthusiasm and motivation to work as hard while having to start from scratch.
There's just so many physical and mental barriers to this transition that I'll be genuinely impressed if too many of the current A/S Class players cross over smoothly. I've been a Bisu fan for as long as I've watched BW, yet I am almost certain that Sun will be more valuable to T1's proleague roster (as far as SC2 is concerned - so if not this season, then certainly the next). I certainly can't see Jaedong doing well either.
You have a certain responsibility not to squander the team/salary/sponsor system built by the toil of your predecessors. I don't think this is KeSPA's finest moment. I think there are better ways to adopt or fully transition to SC2, even though I would prefer it never happened. PL has been the most important league for a while and it stands to reason some guys are going to be burned to focus on the team's chances, and it mainly has to do with the new rules about being forced to alternate sets and the ace matches always being SC2.
This should be a glorious time of KeSPA players becoming the best anyone's ever been at these games. But there might be no way to stop people from tripping over themselves in both games so long as PL is a hybrid league in this format.
"Ever since Kespa started running SC2 side by side, they couldn't care less about BW. The final versions of the Starleague maps were not much different from the beta versions. Actually, when progamers compete, they are putting a lot on the line. There is no avenue for players to talk about these things. There is no place to give or receive feedback."
Song byung goo the true hero of broodwar ......... Looks like not all the pro gamers can keep up with the façade of everything is going fine and I like sc 2 .
I concur with the prior feeling that it's great that finally someone didn't say, "Well, it is what it is." But the whole situation seems dangerous. Kespa wants to burn out the players so they'll get so frustrated practicing for two games that most of the players will just say, "Let's just play SC2 only," which is exactly what Kespa wants, as soon as possible. I know it's already planned, but the sooner the better, Kespa believes, especially if you can break the will of the players. I believe this will backfire at some point.
Also, it can't be too surprising that we'd find at least one player who probably doesn't enjoy SC2 at all. We don't know if that's Stork's beef, but you could tell in certain interviews (Ex: Shine's OSL interview) that some players are really trying to hint that they don't like SC2, at least yet.
Stork is right about a union. The workload is ridiculous, alternating between different games seems absurd, and only diminishes the final product presented to the fans.
My hope is that a lot of people just start "retiring"... by which I mean quitting their teams. If they want to pick up SC2 with TSL or EG or something, more power to them. Maybe their salaries would fall (for some), but at least you won't be burning yourself out (and some teams have very "liberal practice schedules). Hell, maybe a lot of these guys will learn a trade or finish school, and find a new career.
I think Killer got out of dodge, and Jaedong based on certain blurbs he's made seems very unhappy.
On May 23 2012 08:47 RamenStyle wrote: God damn it, let there be a council! I might be just happy wishing, but if it happens, maybe it means that BW could live a little longer?
Next season will most likely be purely SC2. I doubt anything can change that.
On May 23 2012 08:32 ppshchik wrote: Stork is kind of like IdrA, they are both somewhat dicks but very sincere in voicing their opinions.
How the fuck is Stork like IdrA? Stork is the Commander in Chief, he speaks for troops. He has enough balls to speak up against Kespa. IdrA is just a raging noob behind a computer.
Would a massive strike be possible from all the players? That would certainly alarm Kespa to the point they would do something about it. The only question is, how many of the players are willing to go on a strike?
For those who feel like this "doesn't change anything," the issue has to be brought up before any change can implement. If everyone just tolls the company line(see Jaedong, Bisu interviews in the new section), then fans won't realize the problems many players go through. The whole Kespa ramming SC2 down gamers throats is disgusting, and they don't care about the damage they do.
So props to Stork for bringing the issue to light. At the very least, he manages to speak for countless B-teamers, practice partners that are royally getting screwed with the switch and could not get their feelings known.
On May 23 2012 08:32 ppshchik wrote: Stork is kind of like IdrA, they are both somewhat dicks but very sincere in voicing their opinions.
This is the most god awful comparison between two progamers I have ever seen.
God I like Stork. He's just so honest, and it's just crazy to think that he gets this time in the spotlight during what has to be one of his biggest personal accomplishments of his life... and he spends at least part of it defending his fellow BW players and calling out the faults of an association which still has a *ton* of control over his career. Balls of goddamn steel. Attaboy storku
I really wouldn't have expected Stork to be the one to speak up. He's always personable and "doesn't care who knows", but he's never seemed to me to have much of a serious side. If anything, I would have expected some passive-aggressive comments from Bisu, or maybe even something from Coach Park depending what his players were thinking/their results.
On the issue at hand, I'm not sure. BW has been fading for a couple years, though - but then, not because of SC2 directly. KeSPA's railroading SC2, that's clear; Blizzard is probably pushing them hard as well. But KeSPA has never been about making concessions, while Blizzard exists by doing business, so is working mainly with what is there.
I could see this as an opportunity, in some ways - if the sentiment is widespread - for GOM and OGN to reach an agreement with the teams and cut KeSPA out entirely. But that would demand some sort of settlement with the BW players, otherwise it's just the same problem and they'll stick with the devil they know. Also I don't know Korean intricacies, so that might be impossible - but I could see, say, Team 8 or STX "disbanding" and reforming under the GSL umbrella if some arrangement were proposed.
I feel like a stable team league is necessary for Starcraft to continue in popularity, and my impression is that the KeSPA Proleague is the closest thing there is: GSTL and IPL neither of them have a stable lineup of teams (though they do have a pool to draw from) or anything like a professional "season".
Ok. I have been Jaedong fan for 3 years now. But i think i just became a Stork fan for life. brb changing OZ icon to Khan. Jaedong and Bisu defeatist attitude is shit.
I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
On May 23 2012 09:34 Release wrote: Ok. I have been Jaedong fan for 3 years now. But i think i just became a Stork fan for life. brb changing OZ icon to Khan. Jaedong and Bisu defeatist attitude is shit.
Their personalities are different. Jaedong is very PC and Bisu is introverted and not very eloquent. I don't blame them.
Thank you Stork. This is pretty much the reason why I refuse to watch Proleague or OSL. The games are just trash, the players are playing like trash, and the fans have to be cowed into this new game.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
On May 23 2012 09:39 Gamegene wrote: Thank you Stork. This is pretty much the reason why I refuse to watch Proleague or OSL. The games are just trash, the players are playing like trash, and the fans have to be cowed into this new game.
AFAI have seen, Fantasy isn't playing like trash (yet). but most definitely have.
Always considered stork as one of the more superior protoss in PvT,PvP maybe not so much in PvZ but his play is really inspiring . Seriously nothing gets me more hype than dragoons killing siege tanks line and only stork is capable of making this happen because in the hands of the commander dragoons become immortal and become the imbalance for the siege tank. Probably retiring of brave pushed stork in to this position or he had enough of the pushing kespa has been doing to them .
Previously bw pro gamers were only needed to play bw only and they were able to deliver jaw dropping action and quality games for the fans all over the world and now they have to play in this frankenstein league where players have to divide their attention span to two games . Sure some players may have that " I will make out of this I don't give a **** I will survive this BS".However not all of them can accept that the level of play is going to be reset to the point there is nothing to differentiate them from other players .
This will probably won't change anything however but Stork saying this little things like " maps are bull shit for bw and kespa don't give a damn about bw " only made a fan boy for stork . He isn't all happy about the sc2 transition and the way they are forcing them to play in this way.
This is so saddening... Dammit Stork, I'm with you all the way! I wish I could cuddle and cry with you. y'know what, imma switch to khan just cuz of this
On May 23 2012 09:45 Sawamura wrote: Always considered stork as one of the more superior protoss in PvT,PvP maybe not so much in PvZ but his play is really inspiring . Seriously nothing gets me more hype than dragoons killing siege tanks line and only stork is capable of making this happen because in the hands of the commander dragoons become immortal and become the imbalance for the siege tank. Probably retiring of brave pushed stork in to this position or he had enough of the pushing kespa has been doing to them .
Previously bw pro gamers were only needed to play bw only and they were able to deliver jaw dropping action and quality games for the fans all over the world and now they have to play in this frankenstein league where players have to divide their attention span to two games . Sure some players may have that " I will make out of this I don't give a **** I will survive this BS".However not all of them can accept that the level of play is going to be reset to the point there is nothing to differentiate them from other players .
This will probably won't change anything however but Stork saying this little things like " maps are bull shit for bw and kespa don't give a damn about bw " only made a fan boy for stork . He isn't all happy about the sc2 transition and the way they are forcing them to play in this way.
On May 23 2012 09:34 Release wrote: Ok. I have been Jaedong fan for 3 years now. But i think i just became a Stork fan for life. brb changing OZ icon to Khan. Jaedong and Bisu defeatist attitude is shit.
Oh come on, you don't change your icon... once you choose the path of being sKyHighed you have to deal with it until you die.
On May 23 2012 09:34 Release wrote: Ok. I have been Jaedong fan for 3 years now. But i think i just became a Stork fan for life. brb changing OZ icon to Khan. Jaedong and Bisu defeatist attitude is shit.
Oh come on, you don't change your icon... once you choose the path of being sKyHighed you have to deal with it until you die.
back to OZ but for some reason, i enjoyed watching "The sky also rises" a little bit more.
i love stork a lot, he is so honest and passionate, he is the yellow of his generation but he has been playing since 2005, and one of the longest careers in bw, he is experienced and he would make a good leader this won't make a difference but i'm glad players like stork can voice their opinions like this and take initiative and have courage
Stork lives up to his name, The Commander-in-Chief. Reading about the increase in workload ever since the hybrid league and all the players retiring in the last 6 months, he is right. Bisu, JD and Flash are all your typical yes-man type youths and JD is almost saintlike in enduring his problems without blaming anyone other than himself.
I'm so happy a player is speaking out against this crap. One of the main reasons I'm against "merging" BW and SC2 is not my entertaintment but the fact that it's a huge fuck you to the players.
"if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Exactly, there is no merging in sight. The only possible outcome of this clusterfuck is that most of the BW players are just gonna quit. They don't need this shit. It's sad that in their frenzied money grab Blizzard doesn't realize that the players are everything. It's even sadder that they may not realize it themselves until it's too late.
But mad props to Stork anyway. I'm not gonna laugh at those rage comics with him and the hydras anymore. Well, not very often...
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
I gotta comment one more time, because you guys make it sound like Stork said SC2 is bullshit and that the current problems are SC2's fault. It's not, the transition would have happend sooner or later anyways. The problem is that Kespa is FREAKING SCREWING UP in the way they are handling this (which is what Stork was talking about, not his stance towards SC2). Don't blame SC2, as this is just sort of a valve to show the way Kespa ALWAYS WAS. All I want is more focus on Kespa's mistakes over SC2 in general.
I respect Stork for speaking his mind, as very few pro gamers actually do. I was actaully thinking that everyone in the pro BW scene was going to silently accept the forced change or quit, I'm glad Stork spoke up.
You guys getting excited and are reading a little bit much into this. The players union thing was something boxer went on and on about in several interviews and kespa having little regard for the players opinions is a persisting issue. Old news. About the SCII thing, I don't know if this is just an excerpt (?) but I'm sure stork understands that there were few options left when teams and leagues literally could not find a sponsor.
On May 23 2012 10:12 blahblahblahwhatever wrote: I'm so happy a player is speaking out against this crap. One of the main reasons I'm against "merging" BW and SC2 is not my entertaintment but the fact that it's a huge fuck you to the players.
"if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Exactly, there is no merging in sight. The only possible outcome of this clusterfuck is that most of the BW players are just gonna quit. They don't need this shit. It's sad that in their frenzied money grab Blizzard doesn't realize that the players are everything. It's even sadder that they may not realize it themselves until it's too late.
But mad props to Stork anyway. I'm not gonna laugh at those rage comics with him and the hydras anymore. Well, not very often...
Why are you talking about Blizzard...? The issue lies with Kespa, and has been for a long time even before SC2 was mentioned.
Props to Stork and any player who stands up for their beliefs indeed, but don't turn this into some stupid hatefest.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
A player's union isn't going to save Brood War. Maybe if it was formed a year ago it could have made the transition a little better for the players. What Stork says is true, if players don't learn Sc2 fast their careers are over. I don't want that to be true but there's no reason to expect anything different.
It might be too late for BW, but I'm glad someone spoke up about this (and it being someone I'm a fan of is just icing on the cake). There were hints in the coaches interview (one of January's comments) that the players/coaches were not consulted with regarding the specifics of the transition, (or possibly even the transition itself), and it's nice to see confirmation. Putting aside the whole BW vs. SC2 thing, it's outrageous that a change as big as this was just handed down to those who are primarily involved instead of coming up with the best possible situation with input from all sides.
I can't imagine the stress they're all going through with having to practice for 2 different games. The continuation of all the hard work they put in for the past how many years now depends on how fast they can transition to a new game in a few months, which would be fine normally I guess, except they can't even put 100% into the transition and practice because of the format. Or they could put 100% in at the expense of the quality of the BW games they show their fans, and which they played with so high quality before. It all must be very frustrating.
Thinking about it, it's pretty scary how little Kespa cares for its most important assets. I mean, what separates Kespa from current SC2 teams and associations? It's their collection of what most believe to be the best collection of RTS talent in the entire world. So you'd think that Kespa would want their talented players to want to stay around after the SC2 transition, to have them happily slave away for 10+hrs/day on the computer practicing. But instead they've managed to make every single player become depressed. Most of the post-game interviews have been about how players are struggling mentally and physically. How do you expect to compete with the current SC2 industry if your players are all nervous wrecks?
Fostering communication and care between company and workers is always important for the health of everyone involved. And in this aspect Kespa could prove to be a huge failure, if current BW progamers fail to play up to their potential due to this fucked up transition.
Maybe Stork (or someone following in his footsteps?) can be the Curt Flood in Kespa's side? A shame players still have to deal with having their concerns be completely ignored in an entertainment business that depends on them as much as this.
I don't know why crying to reporters at this point is somehow worthy of praise. As a player who was on top of the game he kept quiet when others got stepped on. Now that he sees that even people at the top are disposable he starts crying.
There is no more professional BW league left, what you're hearing is the wallowing of a dying man.
Maybe it is unjust, maybe he was more fortunate than he could reasonably expect. All I know is that I rather had heard from him that he would conquer SC2 or retire to find some other occupation.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
imagine the organization you entrusted to for many years one day suddenly changed their method of dealing with things and started withdrawing liberty from you and your much younger junior colleagues. the youngsters suck it up by mindless following the instruction in fearing for consequences. then some of them just can't take the treatment any longer and decided to call it a quit. you, as an hyung (older brother) feels remorse that you can't possibly alter the outcomes even if you laid your hands out. now past bitter memories conjures up in your mind, rage burning but mostly at the fact that the perception of that organization is merely an illusion. yeah, that would bring the morale of many down.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
Put yourself in his position stork is an amazing talented person if he didn't played bw he would have studied electrical engineering according to one of his interview he likes to tinker with electronic devices .Also you don't know the stress he is going through when you have to put your soul in to two games and expect to be good at both of them . Some will falter, Some will adapt, some will just immediately say screw this I am better working as a muscleman and carry heavy goods for hard labour.
The inception of player union will probably stop kespa from pushing our players from getting screwed all over just because business suit man one says "hmmm foreign scene has sc2 maybe we can try doing this to get more cash ? ". If what stork said is true and they didn't even bother to take into account pro gamers opinion and just force this idea of "hold the line for sc2 " than this is a total bull shit than any long standing proleague fan shouldn't be supporting it's movement.
On May 23 2012 11:54 Jaevlaterran wrote: Thank you stork. Create a players union, initiate a strike until the old format with bw only is back and then win all of it.
And then Team 8, who still doesn't have a sponsor, folds. Proleague is now down to seven teams and more players have to retire.
KESPA needed a change, but this hybrid format is awful. The splitting is only going to give the BW diehard fans bad Brood War games and give the SC2 international fans that the KESPA players are five levels below the players they've seen in the GSL for the past two years.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
I think he was at the meantime very happy for his 100th OSL victory. He already had tears in his eyes when doing the handprint, we could see he was very touched. Then the interview translated in OP was right after the hand print if I remember correctly, so....
Anyway, still huge respect for talking about that issue, now that all the old timers are gone, Stork is the dean !
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
I don't think all SC2 players only play for the money. There are a lot of middle to low tier players that could go to other places and earn much more money. There are also high-tier players that play for the love of the game as well.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
I thought Kespa was supposed to help out players more than anything? I mean, whats the point of even having a Kespa if it isn't doing it's job. Why are players untouchable within Kespa, but don't get the best treatment? maybe someone could clarify but yeah I think this is BS and stork is doing a good thing here.
On May 23 2012 13:02 emc wrote: I thought Kespa was supposed to help out players more than anything? I mean, whats the point of even having a Kespa if it isn't doing it's job. Why are players untouchable within Kespa, but don't get the best treatment? maybe someone could clarify but yeah I think this is BS and stork is doing a good thing here.
Kespa = Korean E-Sport Association. It is a organization that focus completely on the managing of the scene and the interest of the partnership. Honestly after Kespa have been created, gamers have become less and less vocal. Remember Reach being forced to wear makeups? And more recently JangBi can't even wear his favorite clothing. That's is atrocious.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
I think Koreans just tend to be a bit more melodramatic.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
I think Koreans just tend to be a bit more melodramatic.
I don't know lance armstrong was crying too when he failed to finish it top in the racing tournament . Maybe foreigners are just melodramatic too.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
I think Koreans just tend to be a bit more melodramatic.
I don't know man, this is a game that these progamers poured hard work and passion to get to where they are now. And now for that to be taken away to transition into another game that does not guarantee the security of their jobs kinda blows. And it plain sucks.
It's like going to college and studying for 2 years as a musician because you love music so much then out of the blue your parents are like NO YOU CANT BE A MUSICIAN, YOU BECOME DOCTOR NOW and make you change your major to Medicine. That's bullshit.
Yeah I wouldn't be upset either if my boss came up to one day and told me I had to drop the current career (which I loved) I'd been pursuing for the past 1/3 of my life in favor of a completely new one that I had no idea about, and that if I didn't I would lose my job.
It also wouldn't help either if he mentioned that I had to still simultaneously practice my old career, and that everyone expected me to be perfect at both of them.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
They probably take the risk of not getting a salary and practicing to win massive foreign tournaments that are held both at online & offline events. It's like bounty hunters, easy money though when vs foreigners. It can't be that bad when the opportunity to win money is so frequent (I swear, GSL like every month compared to OSL every three months, same thing with MLG, IPL, etc..WAAAAY too many events).
Trust me, the early days of Starcraft was way worse than it is now. --;
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
Haha I can't take someone who cares about how many post he has seriously. I don't think you should take me seriously neither, but there are a lot of examples of what I said, there's no need to argue about that since the post above this one resumes what I was trying to say.
On May 23 2012 13:49 SlowBullets wrote: They probably take the risk of not getting a salary and practicing to win massive foreign tournaments that are held both at online & offline events. It's like bounty hunters, easy money though when vs foreigners. It can't be that bad when the opportunity to win money is so frequent (I swear, GSL like every month compared to OSL every three months, same thing with MLG, IPL, etc..WAAAAY too many events).
Trust me, the early days of Starcraft was way worse than it is now. --;
GSL seasons last 2-3 months this year, I agree there were too many last year. Winning a title this year is far more prestigious.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
I think Koreans just tend to be a bit more melodramatic.
I don't know man, this is a game that these progamers poured hard work and passion to get to where they are now. And now for that to be taken away to transition into another game that does not guarantee the security of their jobs kinda blows. And it plain sucks.
It's like going to college and studying for 2 years as a musician because you love music so much then out of the blue your parents are like NO YOU CANT BE A MUSICIAN, YOU BECOME DOCTOR NOW and make you change your major to Medicine. That's bullshit.
Stork is one of the more emotional guys, for sure. But as someone said earlier, his tears were mostly due to having won 100 games in the OSL and got his hand printed. So he was riding an emotional high going into the interview.
Also, he probably had a lot of frustrations that he couldn't voice until now. Remember, the switch happened in the offseason. Since then, Jangbi was interviewed for the PL match. And Stork lost his first OSL game. This was his interview since the switch, and first time he could finally voice his feelings to the public.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
Haha I can't take someone who cares about how many post he has seriously. I don't think you should take me seriously neither, but there are a lot of examples of what I said, there's no need to argue about that since the post above this one resumes what I was trying to say.
Good job ignoring what I actually said and instead focusing on my unnecessary post count comment. And yes, I see a need to argue with what you said, because you seemingly didn't spend a second thinking about what you were writing. You could have said what you wanted to say without disrespecting SC2 players in the meanest way possible.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
Possibly. Brave and Killer just quit gaming. Brave in particular had a decent record last season. Stork would know the real reasons why they left, especially since Brave is his teammate and junior. Stork also mentions that he's the only one left who can express the grievances on behalf of the players so perhaps some of his juniors approached him about their difficulties.
On May 23 2012 11:49 ellerina wrote: It might be too late for BW, but I'm glad someone spoke up about this (and it being someone I'm a fan of is just icing on the cake). There were hints in the coaches interview (one of January's comments) that the players/coaches were not consulted with regarding the specifics of the transition, (or possibly even the transition itself), and it's nice to see confirmation. Putting aside the whole BW vs. SC2 thing, it's outrageous that a change as big as this was just handed down to those who are primarily involved instead of coming up with the best possible situation with input from all sides.
I can't imagine the stress they're all going through with having to practice for 2 different games. The continuation of all the hard work they put in for the past how many years now depends on how fast they can transition to a new game in a few months, which would be fine normally I guess, except they can't even put 100% into the transition and practice because of the format. Or they could put 100% in at the expense of the quality of the BW games they show their fans, and which they played with so high quality before. It all must be very frustrating.
I love Stork so much for speaking out like this. Most of the reason games have been so lackluster lately is because of these awful maps being used. It was bad enough to see them played for one season, but to have them repeated was just lazy and negligent. Possible last ever BW season and we get scraps like these?
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
I am no way playing down the difficulty about the sc2 players who are facing right now but if I compared to the days when broodwar pro gamers started appearing on the scene the professional environment for teams was really bad that all you had in you was your passion to play the game even if it means sleeping under the table of the cybercafe after your long 14 hours practice of broodwar.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
I've read the fe (which is really, really good). No, it isn't as bad (although some players donate a part of their price money to their teams because they have no sponsors), but that was never my point. I was just extremely upset about his generalizing of player intentions which you can hopefully understand.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 14:03 Sawamura wrote:
On May 23 2012 13:47 RageCommodore wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:55 empty.bottle wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
I am no way playing down the difficulty about the sc2 players who are facing right now but if I compared to the days when broodwar pro gamers started appearing on the scene the professional environment for teams was really bad that all you had in you was your passion to play the game even if it means sleeping under the table of the cybercafe after your long 14 hours practice of broodwar.
If you're going to carry on an argument using the situation of how BW was when it started, then we might as well say that Stork and his current BW colleagues have no right to complain either because they aren't eating ramen once a day and fainting on stage.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 14:03 Sawamura wrote:
On May 23 2012 13:47 RageCommodore wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:55 empty.bottle wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
I am no way playing down the difficulty about the sc2 players who are facing right now but if I compared to the days when broodwar pro gamers started appearing on the scene the professional environment for teams was really bad that all you had in you was your passion to play the game even if it means sleeping under the table of the cybercafe after your long 14 hours practice of broodwar.
And there were times when ppl used stones and sticks... And there were times when there were no PC's and nobody really cared.. And there are still countries where ppl starve to death, so what do these progamers moan about? This is what your logic looks like. Moreover since you are not progamer, I guess you are in no position to make this kind of judgements.
I hope the Korean legislation concerning underage labor will be reworked. At this level, they need a professional union and not only for SC.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
I also find it interesting how Stork is the only one (so far) to complain about the death of BW. So far most players have either said its kinda hard or that its hard switching from sc2 to bw, but not the other way round. Others have said its okay / they treat them as completely different games... Even Jaedong said "time is time" or something like that.. Essentially that they have no control over it and must do what they must. I was expecting a little more grief over the situation from the players themselves. I'm sure a majority of the players feel this way but their teams / PR (coughkespacough) have told them what to say.. Really gives an insight to Korean culture.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
Killer and Brave.
They are already pro though. and who will compete with them? some lower than b-team players?
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
Killer and Brave.
They are already pro though. and who will compete with them? some lower than b-team players?
There are still the draft AFAIK and the High School Amateur League. Courage Tournament were supposed to get some fresh players
Right now all we hearing is what corporations says. Granted they have the money but I'd love to hear more on what the players think/want for the future of Starcraft.
Although I love the idea that they are all switching to SC2 but they way this is being done with the proleague format and all just seems wrong. It really feels like they are being "forced" to rather than choosing to make the switch now.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 14:03 Sawamura wrote:
On May 23 2012 13:47 RageCommodore wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:55 empty.bottle wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
I am no way playing down the difficulty about the sc2 players who are facing right now but if I compared to the days when broodwar pro gamers started appearing on the scene the professional environment for teams was really bad that all you had in you was your passion to play the game even if it means sleeping under the table of the cybercafe after your long 14 hours practice of broodwar.
And there were times when ppl used stones and sticks... And there were times when there were no PC's and nobody really cared.. And there are still countries where ppl starve to death, so what do these progamers moan about? This is what your logic looks like. Moreover since you are not progamer, I guess you are in no position to make this kind of judgements.
I hope the Korean legislation concerning underage labor will be reworked. At this level, they need a professional union and not only for SC.
Funny thing is in china child labour is still at large if you want to talk fairness on a global perspective you must be some kind of some of a saint than.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
This has nothing to do with BW to SC2 transition.
The problem is Kespa hasn't given a shit about its players since its inception, and not showing the maps and the mixed format was the straw that broke the camels back for Stork. Players have no say in what happens in the leagues or the maps that make it into the pool, and have their hands tied by the stupid kespa progamer licenses. Kespa nearly killed BW when it conjured the "license to broadcast starcraft" from thin air, and then sold it back to OGN for a sum that nearly made them go broke.
Kespa simply controls everything that happens without any player input, and any smallfry who talk back fear that they get their license revoked, which is why nobody has complained. Because Stork is such a high profile player, he used his 100 wins achievement to segway into making light of an issue that most progamers had feared to speak up about.
read the article again.
When we were only playing BW, Kespa would first initiate a map test but for this Starleague, the players were only given the final version of the maps the day before the opening.
stork talks about kespa stop giving a shit about bw matters in this case releasing of maps is the example.
This season's BW maps are an example, if you look at the vast majority of the things Kespa has done, the players' opinions have not once been taken into account. It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
stork talks about kespa forcing sc2 onto them without getting their opinions.
it is unfortunate but the context is bw to sc2 transition.
Hypothetically, if KesPa did not decide to switch to SC2 and still could not find an external sponsor for BW leagues, then the BW scene could collapse as a whole, which would mean that all players would lose their job. I would say that would be more damaging than transitioning.
The problem is that how KesPa handles the transition is just bad. They could call up a conference and explain/discuss the need of transition with the players, delay the Proleague until OSL completes and give them more time to practice the new game without having to play two games at the same time. That would make life a lot easier for Progamers.
I don't argue the need of the player union, though. Players should have some saying in how them are going to be treated.
On May 23 2012 14:03 Sawamura wrote:
On May 23 2012 13:47 RageCommodore wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:55 empty.bottle wrote:
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Seriously, this is fucking retarded bullshit. Many players on korean sc2 teams don't even get a salary. Hundreds of people are attending the code A qualifiers because they dream to one day win a GSL, to go down into history. By saying that they "only play for the money" is fucking disrespectful for the ones that give it all just to have a shot at glory. You just said "fuck you" to all the guys that are grinding their hearts out in team houses, or alone at home, just to fulfill their dream of being a progamer. There are so many people out there that don't just care for the money. Stop being freaking short sighted. Just because you hate SC2, you have no right to look down on the people that play it.
Fuck this, I can't belive I just wasted my 500th post on you.
I don't think gsl success will ever move me the way Hotforever did for his team sacrificing his winnings for his team so they do not starve for few months and only surviving on instant noodles . If you compared back than and the current pro gaming life. It is in a much better environment than it is previously . Seriously go read the tlfe titled piano man.
Shortly after the tournament, H.O.T was a genuine superstar. A film crew for a TV station decided to visit the SM team house to film a documentary about progame teams. The team was so poor, they had no food. With embarrassment written all over him, Coach Jae Kyun began to try and boil some ramen to eat while the TV crew filmed it for all of the world to see. This was the kind of life a professional game team offered.
If you tell me currently the pro gaming teams are in this kind of situation I would be rolling on the floor laughing.
It's not that bad but many players in Korea still donate prize money to the team to help them out. Many have to come up with a new business model in order to stay alive (ex. Prime open a cloth shop with their players as models). oGs, which was just disbanded, pretty much relied on some of the prize money that their players win at the beginning.
So yeah, it's not that bad but it's still difficult for SC2 team in Korea right now, and that's why many Korean players try to find a foreign team.
I am no way playing down the difficulty about the sc2 players who are facing right now but if I compared to the days when broodwar pro gamers started appearing on the scene the professional environment for teams was really bad that all you had in you was your passion to play the game even if it means sleeping under the table of the cybercafe after your long 14 hours practice of broodwar.
If you're going to carry on an argument using the situation of how BW was when it started, then we might as well say that Stork and his current BW colleagues have no right to complain either because they aren't eating ramen once a day and fainting on stage.
Sure these days we have better times but that doesn't mean we should have a union that protect the players right which will look after them.
On May 23 2012 15:58 koreasilver wrote: You either have some severe cognitive dissonance or you suffer from some pretty severe amnesia.
It's basically my perspective that back than it was harder and probably a short sighted one because in the end I am probably biased of the whole situation when it comes to bw . That's was my response to ragecommoder about times of difficulty that pro gamers have to go through back than . So what's the point of calling me being mentally impaired and yet at the same time senile ?
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
Killer and Brave.
They are already pro though. and who will compete with them? some lower than b-team players?
I don't understand your point. You don't become a star player overnight. Players take time to develop and this is the same for any game. If there wasn't talent out there, players like Mini wouldn't be coming through the ranks. He's was only drafted in 2010 and is still quite young.
On May 23 2012 09:35 Ribbon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what Stork's grievance is. Does he want to go back to BW, skip this hybrid business and go straight to SC2, or just set up some kind of system for players who get lost in the transition? Is the transition the issue, the way the transition is happening, or just progamer life in general under KeSPA being pushed to a breaking point?
What exactly does he want this players association to do?
Players have little to no control about the decisions of the corporate and are basically forced into what ever tasks presented to them. Stork says "enough is enough, let's take back what is ours."
and we go "Hell, its about time!"
About time for what, exactly? You can't stay on BW without cutting players because the scene is smaller. That is simply a fact. 2007 is not coming back. I'd love to hear a realistic proposal of what's actually the best thing for the players. The options are
1. Stay in BW, but go smaller
2. Switch to SC2 and pray for the best (Current plan)
3. Keep the hybrid proleague, but alternate ace match between BW and SC2, and remove the requirement for players to alternate (in effect, having a half-size BW league glued awkwardly to an SC2 league forever). That's really the only middle ground on the switch front
Or is he talking about something tangentially related, like having a program to get BW players who wash out of the SC2 league a chance to go back to school and not be janitors for the rest of their lives?
I'm just not sure he's talking about the switch itself, but that the switch hurts a lot of players and no one seems to care.
The way you say things are very disrespectful but I do agree with you. BW is no longer in its prime and trying to get it back to that point would not only shrink both the BW and SC2 scene, but will promote other games in its place that have less tension (LoL, DotA, etc..)
Not trying to disrespectful to any BW fans myself in the least bit but after the current BW players are done and retire, then whos next? I dont see anymore up and coming BW players (not saying that there arent any around). On the other hand, there are tons of undiscovered sc2 players out there with potential. BW was nice but its been what 12 years?
Back on subject though. These companies that sponser these teams and run the tournaments dont care about the players, as long as they get money. Thats how its always been in all sports. Thats how it always has been in life. Money. The players can complain and even go on strike if they wanted but I wouldnt expect much to change at all.
Killer and Brave.
They are already pro though. and who will compete with them? some lower than b-team players?
I don't understand your point. You don't become a star player overnight. Players take time to develop and this is the same for any game. If there wasn't talent out there, players like Mini wouldn't be coming through the ranks. He's was only drafted in 2010 and is still quite young.
Yes I feel very sad for mini, he was drafted in 2010, worked his ass of, is finally getting good results, and in a few months there won't be any more BW competition. It sounds so unfair
Yeah, I'd feel incredibly shafted if I had been drafted in as a rookie only a few months/a year ago, and now this.. Giving up so much to do what you dream, and then to have it ruined.
Sawamura, it is not fairness I'm talking about, it is ordinary compassion and respect to the hard work these boys indulge themselves into, to become the best, yes, to make money, yes, to achieve something. The way it is done in Korea looks more than harsh by our standards, of course not by Asian ones, as you've already mentioned. But that does not mean they have not earned to have their rights well protected.
They work full-time as myself, God damn it. And I am protected by the labor union, I have social benefits and guarantees they didn't and probably will never have.
This is what this all about. And it's only Stork who complained about Kespa for the first time so far, after 12 or so years of hard work, only Stork mentioned that, maybe, they should ask players too. We all can look back and say, they had much less that very time, earned much less etc. But it is in no way an argument to wield here, when a veteran player tries his best at holding his tears back
It will be sad if bw pros, who won't achieve any good results in sc2, will be thrown out of teams T_T Huge responsibility is on their shoulders now. But I hope kespa players will rock as coach Park said
I agree, and think there should be things like this in the SC2-scene as well, so that players have more of a say in decisions thanks to their united power.
Will it work? I don't know, but if you look at almost any professional sport, it's got a player union. Why should it be different for e-Sports?
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
WTF!? SC2 players don't even get salary and you say they play for money only? All progamer has money as one of the goals in their career but it's not everything.
The foreign SC2 scene killed korean BW, because without their success, the korean sponsors wouldn't have had any issues with continuing sponsoring BW. In all the interviews about the switch, they are always talking about the american scene. Korea rejected SC2, because they were very knowledgeable about BW, and knew that it was superior.
What I wish that Kespa would have done is to back BW to 100%. If they would have told the potential sponsors that they would never go through with a full switch, then maybe BW would have survived, but at a smaller scale. This switch have been going on for a year, and it explains a lot of things. It explains the lackluster games and high cheese frequency overall. It explains T8's performance. All the other teams have good leadership and decent job security, but T8 had nothing. Not only was the future of their team uncertain, but also they knew that the game they were playing would be dropped in a year.
To sum up this year though, I have to give a lot of credit to Fantasy, Flash, Mini and Last. Flash and Fantasy showed great performance until the end, which tells that they always put BW first during this period, and mini + Last, who hadn't shown much before, but who showed a unexpected dedication to BW. Thanks for sticking to BW until the end.
Perhaps there's something fishy about Brave's retirement that made Stork reacted this way? I mean. his retirement come out of nowhere (at least on TL) and judging by his recent play, Brave was doing pretty good in PL.
On May 23 2012 06:57 HawaiianPig wrote: Around the time when Jaedong was getting royally screwed on his free agency, I remember thinking, "Man, they really need a players association". It's nice to see someone piping up about this.
Poor stork
Honestly, this Proleague should have been delayed so players could have had proper time to prepare for SC2 pure. The hybrid format is just a mess.
I like your thoughts on this.. but look at Stork speaking out. I really like this guy!
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Right...
BW players also play for the money, but with ANY sport that has a lasting influence and niche audience / membership the players do develop personal sentimental attachment to the game. See the aftermath of MBCGame and the casters / players' reaction to it. They weren't just upset because they lost a job / income source, they were also upset because it was something they had a personal passion in. So would SC2 players years down the line and it obviously varies from player to player. It's illogical to call out extremes like one group exclusively do one thing because you can always find outliers to the contrary give a large enough sample size. But it is public conception and phenomenon at least right now that BW, being the older and more nostalgic game has more sentimental attachment rather than just the monetary when compared to SC2.
On May 23 2012 12:44 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Huh. I wonder what made him so stressed he was crying? Sure, the stuff he outlined was very bad, but I don't think it's bad enough to bring tears to his eyes, especially in an interview that was going to the public. Maybe there's a bit more than just issues with player feedback.
LOL, that's cause you don't understand what BW means to them, how could you? How could I?
But this I know, Sc2 players play for the money. BW players play because they love what they do.
Right...
BW players also play for the money, but with ANY sport that has a lasting influence and niche audience / membership the players do develop personal sentimental attachment to the game. See the aftermath of MBCGame and the casters / players' reaction to it. They weren't just upset because they lost a job / income source, they were also upset because it was something they had a personal passion in. So would SC2 players years down the line and it obviously varies from player to player. It's illogical to call out extremes like one group exclusively do one thing because you can always find outliers to the contrary give a large enough sample size. But it is public conception and phenomenon at least right now that BW, being the older and more nostalgic game has more sentimental attachment rather than just the monetary when compared to SC2.
So if i would have been a Warcraft 2 pro, i would have the right to call every BW player going for money only? You cannot agree with him calling EVERYONE who plays Sc2 at pro level playing for money. This is just not right
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. He's saying this just now that the transition to sc2 is happening. What about all the years before? Boxer have retired a few years ago, not now. It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene. I'm just trying to think what he said, don't summon a shitstorm over me.
But of course he has problems! And he is defending himself AND the many others in his position - who aren't brave enough to speak up.
I think you misunderstood the reason to respect Stork - he's not the white knight who isn't in trouble himself but just saving the poor kids; no, he's one of those in trouble, but he's courageous enough to do something about it and help others too.
I said something similar in a thread awhile back - about building organizations, and that perhaps SC2 would benefit from a "bottom up" approach by the players getting together and forming an organization to look out for the players. Teams are great, but they do not always look out for the players. The team should be focused on, well, the team. Leagues aren't going to look out for the players (coughcoughMLGcough) because they are rightly focused on league issues. The only people that know what problems are for players, what the most pressing concerns are for players, is going to be the players. And only the players can build an organization that pretty much will be able to influence all leagues and teams - because teams and leagues can't exist without the players. Sure, I like some teams more than others, but when it comes down to it... I watch matches for the players. If Stephano is in Millenium, or if he's in EG (troll), or if he's on Team Grubby, I'm going to watch him because it's Stephano. If MKP were to suddenly decide he wants to be LMK (Liquid'MarineKing, and yes I would die happy) I'm going to watch it because of the player. The team affiliation is just a little cherry on top.
There really should be a players organization, and a team organization, which could work together on making sure that tournament organizers have some kind of standards with regards to rules, quality of venue, etc. (Think the difference between an MLG and that "event" in India.) Ultimately, players are the ones with all of the power, but they don't have a way of focusing that clout in a meaningful way when it comes to trying to protect their interests as a group; teams do amazing things for players most of the time, but not all teams are equal. (I'm lookin' at you Eclypsia.)
I'm glad that a major BW pro like Stork feels like this is a good time to try and push against the monolith that is KeSPA. Even the kinder gentler KeSPA could benefit from a strong players organization, and it can help to put a stop to attempts to divide and conquer the market. (I'm lookin' at you Sundance.)
Would have to be a global organization, though, and not limit itself to only KeSPA or GOM or Foreigner players. Stork, you're a hero.
Hmmmm, so he seems to be greived at the lack of preperation for the BW side of this years (last) pro league season? When you can understand the annoyance it must be when you are faced with lack of preperation for your upcoming matches, BUT that said you can't really blame KESPA to much? There main focus would of been on getting the SC2 side completely right so there would be no problems? You could understand there mistake made on not releasing the BW maps until the day before by accident?
That being said totally agree that SC2 players uninion would be perfect ie, Korean SC2 Players Association - EU SC2 Players Association - North American SC2 Players Association. And so on, would be a perfect way for this sport to go to be more professional. Then they can voice concerns to tournament directors at a starting block, then eventually there might be a general governing body formed by the likes of KESPA and others who want to take up a role of trying to govern the whole institute. But this is another topic!
Stork is right in a sense, but you cant blame KESPA for overlooking a bit of BW stuff when its the first time they have gone into SC2, and going into the transition. And yes like others have said, its easy to jump ship in SC2, if you don't like it come and join another team!
On May 23 2012 18:55 Pandemona wrote: Hmmmm, so he seems to be greived at the lack of preperation for the BW side of this years (last) pro league season? When you can understand the annoyance it must be when you are faced with lack of preperation for your upcoming matches, BUT that said you can't really blame KESPA to much? There main focus would of been on getting the SC2 side completely right so there would be no problems? You could understand there mistake made on not releasing the BW maps until the day before by accident?
That being said totally agree that SC2 players uninion would be perfect ie, Korean SC2 Players Association - EU SC2 Players Association - North American SC2 Players Association. And so on, would be a perfect way for this sport to go to be more professional. Then they can voice concerns to tournament directors at a starting block, then eventually there might be a general governing body formed by the likes of KESPA and others who want to take up a role of trying to govern the whole institute. But this is another topic!
Stork is right in a sense, but you cant blame KESPA for overlooking a bit of BW stuff when its the first time they have gone into SC2, and going into the transition. And yes like others have said, its easy to jump ship in SC2, if you don't like it come and join another team!
The purpose of this league is to actually ween the current BW fanbase off BW and onto SC2. It's quite disgusting really (and it's not working HAH!)
On May 23 2012 18:55 Pandemona wrote: Hmmmm, so he seems to be greived at the lack of preperation for the BW side of this years (last) pro league season? When you can understand the annoyance it must be when you are faced with lack of preperation for your upcoming matches, BUT that said you can't really blame KESPA to much? There main focus would of been on getting the SC2 side completely right so there would be no problems? You could understand there mistake made on not releasing the BW maps until the day before by accident?
That being said totally agree that SC2 players uninion would be perfect ie, Korean SC2 Players Association - EU SC2 Players Association - North American SC2 Players Association. And so on, would be a perfect way for this sport to go to be more professional. Then they can voice concerns to tournament directors at a starting block, then eventually there might be a general governing body formed by the likes of KESPA and others who want to take up a role of trying to govern the whole institute. But this is another topic!
Stork is right in a sense, but you cant blame KESPA for overlooking a bit of BW stuff when its the first time they have gone into SC2, and going into the transition. And yes like others have said, its easy to jump ship in SC2, if you don't like it come and join another team!
The purpose of this league is to actually ween the current BW fanbase off BW and onto SC2. It's quite disgusting really (and it's not working HAH!)
If not for the game, stay for the players.
I'll support the likes of TBLS until the day the retire.
Well i remember Stork saying he'd rather switch to LoL than to Sc2. I guess he doesn't really want to play it.
That said, he's got the rights to say what he feels and it's nice that he does so. But it won't change much if anything. Except that he gained some more fans maybe, but i always liked him.
Ah, The french with whome ive been living for the past 20 years have a very easy answer to these problems... its called going on strike.
The national french football team actually went on strike during the South african world cup (gotta admit, a hilarious moment for us irish expats, especially after the thierry henry hand goal....). Thats a bit extreme, i gotta admit, but really, that is a solution that often forces negociations.
On May 23 2012 19:14 Douillos wrote: Ah, The french with whome ive been living for the past 20 years have a very easy answer to these problems... its called going on strike.
The national french football team actually went on strike during the South african world cup (gotta admit, a hilarious moment for us irish expats, especially after the thierry henry hand goal....). Thats a bit extreme, i gotta admit, but really, that is a solution that often forces negociations.
Chances are the players can't strike without punitive action being taken and any action an individual takes effects the whole team. I really do wish players had the agency they deserved though, I can only hope someday they get it
With regards to the whole playing sc2 purely for money thing. There are certainly players in sc2 like stephano who care more about money than the game. He's more of a realist with intentions to go into medicine when decides to retire because he doesn't see sc2 as a real career option for himself. Then you have players like MKP for whom the game is clearly everything and each win and loss is a lot more to him than just potential money gained.
I'm not going to play the who is nobler game because that's dumb but there is undoubtedly an mixture of players in sc2 who do it for the money and those who do it because they love pro-gaming.
It's sad to see Stork in such position... at the same time it is strong indicator, that some players' organization have to be formed. Don't know how or when, but it can't be that any governing corporation disregards players' who are obviously the core of the profit in the 'esports' part.
The MLG-Kespa partnership and MLG being basically the international agent for all KESPA's players could also reinforce those problems. In Bisu's interview, he say he didn't even knew he had to play a sc2 tournament at the next MLG >< It shocked me, but perhaps I misunderstood.
On May 23 2012 19:59 MrCon wrote: The MLG-Kespa partnership and MLG being basically the international agent for all KESPA's players could also reinforce those problems. In Bisu's interview, he say he didn't even knew he had to play a sc2 tournament at the next MLG >< It shocked me, but perhaps I misunderstood.
I completely forgot about that but yeah I read that interview. God the last thing these guys need right now is to be paraded around as fucking show pieces whenever mlg wants them or a foreign tournament talks mlg/kespa into it. As much as several players have expressed an interest in getting to travel and enjoy new fans it really need to be on their terms and when they are comfortable with it. God this is possibly going to suck even harder than it already does.
If Stork is calling for a players committee, he can't be the only one that feels the way he feels. Hopefully more players are given the opportunity to express their opinions, even if they don't have 100 individual league wins.
On May 23 2012 13:02 emc wrote: I thought Kespa was supposed to help out players more than anything? I mean, whats the point of even having a Kespa if it isn't doing it's job. Why are players untouchable within Kespa, but don't get the best treatment? maybe someone could clarify but yeah I think this is BS and stork is doing a good thing here.
Hasn't KeSPA always been kind of infamous for bad player conditions?
On May 23 2012 17:36 letian wrote:They work full-time as myself, God damn it. And I am protected by the labor union, I have social benefits and guarantees they didn't and probably will never have.
I'm fairly sure they work a lot more full-time than any of us (hopefully). Everyone marvels at Flash's 14-hour training schedules, but that's messed up. A lot of BW players are going to be physical wrecks when they get older. Flash was literally hospitalized for BW-related injuries, That should not be happening. Boxer's already too messed up to play SC2 any more.
I'm really worried that we'll start seeing stories in a few years that the first generation of BW is suffering massive health problems.
I'm of the opinion that progamers concerns should be at the forefront in a lot of situations, even above fans concerns because in the end, it is the progamers who spend countless hours practicing Starcraft.
This somehow has made my intense dislike for the MLG-Kespa partnership on levels where I am willing to not watch MLG because I think it is severely detrimental for the 'health' and growth of E-Sports.
13 pages of attention already, I'm glad you brought this to our attention. So thanks for translating Ryo! Stork telling them like it is, so proud of my hero.
Kespa has always been awful towards the players and awful in general. Just typical corporate world assery ruining the gaming world like it has done in so SO many other areas of the industry.
Blizzard isn't the company it was when it made SC1, that's for goddamned sure.
And Stork is the reason I started watching pro SC at all
As for people saying, hes worried to lose his job / worried about other programers losing their jobs.
Remember that it is well known fact that Kespa couldn't find sponsor for BW tournaments. Be it Blizzard, Sc2, Savior or the first World War, they would have lost their job anyway. Some saying, there should be a smaller BW tournament. But probably smaller BW tournament even has less chance to find sponsor -> teams has to disband -> more players lose their job.
This way atleast they got a chance to keep being pro gamers and everyone got a fresh start. There was a comment before, that Stork said he likes LoL more than Sc2. Then go and play LoL. Noone holds him, forces him to play against his own will. Ofc hes worried about his future, who wouldn't be. But saying, this is the end of everything need to remember that Kespa couldn't get sponsor for T8, for tournaments. Either everyone lose their game or some loses it, some able to keep playing as pro gamer. I hardly doubt much of the current pro gamers could fine a decent job outside of gaming.
I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
It does seem like everything has been for the benefit of the fan, or rather trying to convert them to SC2, regardless of the pressure it puts on the players
I can understand Stork very well. I'd kill myself if I was forced to practice a game or on map I hated. This new proleague really killed BW for me. Hopefully it can go back to normal where players get more input.
The players have needed a "union" for ages- glad someone with as big an impact as Stork is speaking up on this. The PP incident and Jaedongs FA come to mind... Don't know who can make this happen though. Kespa sure wont part with their power willingly. Maybe Blizzard, but I'm somewhat doubtful about their motivation to create another power in the business.
The irony is that I always thought KeSPA should stand for Korean eSports Players Association. I think their actual official title is Korea eSports Association. Blehhh
I am really happy to see the BW pros taking on SC2 but Stork is more than right. I watch and follow Brood War since i don't even remember and i just feel that they are forced to play SC2 or die.
I don't want to see Brood War end... and surely not like that.
Stork is more than right (yeah i already said that).
Woah, good on Stork to put his neck out like this. Frankly, i didn't even know that there wasn't a players organisation. I really hope they can arrange something, Kespa basically relies on the big players and the storylines or else they wouldn't exist. I think it's only fair that the players also have a say in how things are being done.
On May 24 2012 01:35 itsdaniel wrote: to be honest, this is the reason why I am such a stork fan for so many years - this guy is making a difference....
I will never stop supporting him and every single fan of him is a personal friend of mine!
Stork is bringing to light something very important for many players. A good number of the 'middling' bw players are looking at losing their solid revenue stream and having to retire as a result. The b teamers are already getting little to nothing so they have an incentive to prove themselves in SC2. The big names (flash, jaedong, bisu, a few others) will probably stick around so they can get a bit of that sweet foreigner prize money. A good bunch in the middle will be stuck between trying their hand at a new game all over again or retirement/doing their military commitment.
Stork is a true leader if he is trying to bring this issue to the forefront to help out his fellow progamers. I really hope they can do a korean players organization before getting really deep into sc2.
Go Stork. Fuck this new PL season, really, as well as the SC2 transformation in general. Sorry. SC2 can have its leagues, let BW have its own or die out. That way people would have the choice of switching or not more directly.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
On May 24 2012 00:02 Monsen wrote: The players have needed a "union" for ages- glad someone with as big an impact as Stork is speaking up on this. The PP incident and Jaedongs FA come to mind... Don't know who can make this happen though. Kespa sure wont part with their power willingly. Maybe Blizzard, but I'm somewhat doubtful about their motivation to create another power in the business.
The best way is to just have a meeting with all the teams on their own initiative and then choose players out of their own teams to represent them to Kespa. And then they can make some demands or go to extreme measures like a strike it's not like Kespa would hand this body any power willingly anyway.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
The irony is that he seem to be arguing in side of BW, unless he is deliberately trying to provoke SC2 players into starting flame war.
Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
The way he responded is nothing but pure elitism, if you want to lecture someone, do it on a way he wont be offended, not like you are from a glorius master race
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
I maybe a fucking hater but stopping people because they hate stupid post is just fucking stupid. Why would people ignore stupid people? They have to be rooted out! They infest the very sanctity of the whole point of good discussion of these forums.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
The way he responded is nothing but pure elitism, if you want to lecture someone, do it on a way he wont be offended, not like you are from a glorius master race
Now, isn't this the pot calling the kettle 'black'. Puhhleeasseee, spare us your noble ways.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
I maybe a fucking hater but stopping people because they hate stupid post is just fucking stupid. Why would people ignore stupid people? They have to be rooted out! They infest the very sanctity of the whole point of good discussion of these forums.
If you ignore stupid people, they will realise it and leave, theres a phrase, dont feed the troll, works just as good on idiots aswell.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
Umm.... wouldn't this require you to follow your own advice and not reply with a post calling this guy an idiot and this forum a shithole?
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
Umm.... wouldn't this require you to follow your own advice and not reply with a post calling this guy an idiot and this forum a shithole?
If you bashing him, call him retard/stupid/idiot then you yourself will be on his same level. If you explain to him in a civil manner, no i dont think so. As for ignoring him, thats the best, since people tend not to listen on the internet
On May 24 2012 02:34 Mattacate wrote: So, I'm curious. Why do people put up with kespa? I've never seen a single good thing written about them.
Because no matter how much everyone hates them, they're the only reason the Korean BW scene flourished and held together for more than a decade. They organized sponsorships, tournaments, set the rules down, coordinated events and map testing and stuff like that, and so on. In other words, without KeSPA, there wouldn't have been a legitimate eSports scene in Korea - instead, it would have remained a niche activity and would never have had its own dedicated channels.
On May 24 2012 02:34 Mattacate wrote: So, I'm curious. Why do people put up with kespa? I've never seen a single good thing written about them.
The situation is not black and white. They have done some good work in the past. An organization like Kespa is needed but at the same time, it could be much better managed.
i feel like stork's comments are too little, too late. we needed this months ago before they even thought of this transition, if not years ago. (thanks savior!)
i haven't been watching any of PL this season, but if the games aren't even GSL quality and the plans to switch to SC2 completely are already finalized, the players have no more power and there would be no reason to listen to the committee. if they all strike/quit, what's to stop the teams from picking up the new crop of SC2 players who give better quality games anyway?
On May 24 2012 02:34 Mattacate wrote: So, I'm curious. Why do people put up with kespa? I've never seen a single good thing written about them.
because they do everything that allows pro starcraft to exist. these events, tv deals, etc. don't just pop up from anywhere. for that matter, you never hear anything good about any owners association for any professional sports.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
I maybe a fucking hater but stopping people because they hate stupid post is just fucking stupid. Why would people ignore stupid people? They have to be rooted out! They infest the very sanctity of the whole point of good discussion of these forums.
If you ignore stupid people, they will realise it and leave, theres a phrase, dont feed the troll, works just as good on idiots aswell.
Don't argue with him. I've made that mistake too often. He's just a fucking hate machine that contributes nothing to his "beloved" forum at all.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
Hey, this is the Brood War forum. If you guys want to bash BW then go do it in the SC2 forums.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, fuck off my turf.
Also, kind of sickening to see so much ignorance and baseless assumptions.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
Stop with the ignorance please, this is getting boring. If you see a brainless sc2 post, instead of commenting on it and calling every sc2 fan retarded, count till then 10 and move on. You and the likes of you makes this forums shithole as much as idiot sc2 fans
Umm.... wouldn't this require you to follow your own advice and not reply with a post calling this guy an idiot and this forum a shithole?
If you bashing him, call him retard/stupid/idiot then you yourself will be on his same level. If you explain to him in a civil manner, no i dont think so. As for ignoring him, thats the best, since people tend not to listen on the internet
By the way, where in my post do I say SC2 fans are retarded? As previously stated, he's spewing false facts and acting like he supports BW (come on, you like BW yet you don't even know control groups have 12 units?), when in reality he probably doesn't even care.
And stop playing the holier-than-thou card please, it's getting pretty fucking ridiculous now.
what I don't get is why everyone thinks because Stork has spoken out like this that it's really a sign that ALL of the BW pros must secretly feel like this too but just won't admit it because of backlash or other political correct bullshit. I'm sure none of the pros enjoy seeing BW be killed off but I'm sure they're not all as forcefully against SC2 as Stork. Just like if BW fans here on TL can be split over liking/hating SC2 then why can't the pros? I'm sure some are actually pretty pumped.
Either way though it is sad that there's no player organization. Someone really needs to get on that.
On May 23 2012 22:03 OpticalShot wrote: 13 pages of attention already, I'm glad you brought this to our attention. So thanks for translating Ryo! Stork telling them like it is, so proud of my hero.
Thanks
Stork is indeed great!
On May 23 2012 19:59 MrCon wrote: The MLG-Kespa partnership and MLG being basically the international agent for all KESPA's players could also reinforce those problems. In Bisu's interview, he say he didn't even knew he had to play a sc2 tournament at the next MLG >< It shocked me, but perhaps I misunderstood.
Yeah, a rather unfortunate decision made at the expense of player welfare.
I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see a real solution to the problems Stork talks about. Forminga player's union isn't that easy to begin with, and even if that happens, I don't know if Kespa would even consider to work with them. The power base from which the players are starting is just too damn low. Just look at F1: last year, there was a big debate between the FIA (which is equivalent in power to Kespa) and the F1 teams over changes in the rules (and the usage of different engines, I believe). Because the FIA wasn't listening, they founded the FOTA team association to finally come to a compromise. What I want to say that even with their much better position than what the BW pros are in right now, the F1 teams had to struggle for a very long time and didn't even reach it's main goals. The chance that Kespa doesn't just pull sponsorship on all teams that participate / ban them from kespa-ruled progaming is not that big in my eyes Really, Kespa never seemed like they were willing to do compromises at all if they weren't forced to do so by bigger powers. If anybody has a good idea how the overall problem could be solved once a players union is established, please let me know the dimensions of the Kespa problem are really depressing to me.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
.............
what the fuck did I just read?
This post is the perfect example as an example of what I stated last page. Thanks for confirming what I see.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
he said that the guy was a post because he said that the other guy loved BW and couldn't such a basic thing as 12 units in one control group.but nowhere from that post i see something as'i love BW'he just said he thought the game was fairly good,how can that not be bashing?
On May 24 2012 03:09 RageCommodore wrote: I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see a real solution to the problems Stork talks about. Forminga player's union isn't that easy to begin with, and even if that happens, I don't know if Kespa would even consider to work with them. The power base from which the players are starting is just too damn low. Just look at F1: last year, there was a big debate between the FIA (which is equivalent in power to Kespa) and the F1 teams over changes in the rules (and the usage of different engines, I believe). Because the FIA wasn't listening, they founded the FOTA team association to finally come to a compromise. What I want to say that even with their much better position than what the BW pros are in right now, the F1 teams had to struggle for a very long time and didn't even reach it's main goals. The chance that Kespa doesn't just pull sponsorship on all teams that participate / ban them from kespa-ruled progaming is not that big in my eyes Really, Kespa never seemed like they were willing to do compromises at all if they weren't forced to do so by bigger powers. If anybody has a good idea how the overall problem could be solved once a players union is established, please let me know the dimensions of the Kespa problem are really depressing to me.
Then you failed to see why this is a very important/brave thing that Stork did.
He did it to voice out that if Kespa continues to belittle it's players and not hearing them out, current players will ultimately leave and Kespa won't have leagues to show because they don't have fucking players.
this is not about player association, this is about trying to be heard.
Why did Stork wait to have the 100th win in the OSL to express this feelings? He knew he will have a big-deal of an interview from OGN. He knew people will like to hear what he had to say for himself. His timing was impeccable.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
.............
what the fuck did I just read?
This post is the perfect example as an example of what I stated last page. Thanks for confirming what I see.
He's obviously just kidding... I thought it became painfully clear when he said control groups of 6 in response to a quote explaining that they were 12..
Its sad that this is the last time we will see BW in this hybrid league and the maps arent even good. I still cannot believe its the end for progaming in BW. I doubt Stork enjoys SC2, I'm worried about his future.
On May 24 2012 03:09 RageCommodore wrote: I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see a real solution to the problems Stork talks about. Forminga player's union isn't that easy to begin with, and even if that happens, I don't know if Kespa would even consider to work with them. The power base from which the players are starting is just too damn low. Just look at F1: last year, there was a big debate between the FIA (which is equivalent in power to Kespa) and the F1 teams over changes in the rules (and the usage of different engines, I believe). Because the FIA wasn't listening, they founded the FOTA team association to finally come to a compromise. What I want to say that even with their much better position than what the BW pros are in right now, the F1 teams had to struggle for a very long time and didn't even reach it's main goals. The chance that Kespa doesn't just pull sponsorship on all teams that participate / ban them from kespa-ruled progaming is not that big in my eyes Really, Kespa never seemed like they were willing to do compromises at all if they weren't forced to do so by bigger powers. If anybody has a good idea how the overall problem could be solved once a players union is established, please let me know the dimensions of the Kespa problem are really depressing to me.
Then you failed to see why this is a very important/brave thing that Stork did.
He did it to voice out that if Kespa continues to belittle it's players and not hearing them out, current players will ultimately leave and Kespa won't have leagues to show because they don't have fucking players.
Do you really think that there aren't tons of rookies that would happily replace the current pros under much worse playing/ right conditions? The whole thing only works if all players work together. If only a small group of players doesn't work together with the player union, they have the potential to fail and lose everything. I understand that it was a great and brave thing to do by Stork (that had be done for a very long time), but I'm not sure that Kespa wouldn just go "well. fuck it, those guys are making too much trouble, we're outta here" and leave BW to move to other eSports like LoL? I can think of other solutions to the problem, but none of those seem satisfying to any party.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
The irony is that he seem to be arguing in side of BW, unless he is deliberately trying to provoke SC2 players into starting flame war.
The irony is that we now see SC2 people posting anything remotely positive about BW and we see it as "siding with the game" when they say things like "BW is a pretty good game" and then listing things that make SC2 "better" than BW as a reason why an entire industry is forced to jump ship. I have nothing personal against Deluxe, but when the players (and top-notch TBLS players) state things like what Stork has stated, it's painfully obvious that SC2 killed BW prematurely. If there was no SC2, ever, BW MIGHT die an eventual slow death. However, it would not have been fueled by sponsors trying to be the names behind the next new thing and greedy suits trying to make some pocket money off of an international franchise that will die when SC3 comes out or enough people realize that foreigners will never live up to the Korean standard without practicing nearly as much as they do. It seems so many people in SC2 are like the people in BW's early days - support the white people who can challenge the Koreans while the game isn't figured out yet! Oh wait, the game just got real now that the top 50 gamers are all Korean and everyone who cared about foreigners and not the game jump ship. Thanks to Brood War, and in an ironic way the PL switch to SC2 favoritism, that point is going to come much sooner than it did in BW circa 2003/2004 (5 years as opposed to... I'm going to guess 3 more for SC2 artificially enhanced by double expansion packs, and then it's GG).
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
On May 24 2012 03:20 HaXxorIzed wrote: Good on you for voicing these concerns Stork. Hopefully it results in something.
What results could be possible ? Its the last BW league and maps are already settled , and he says KeSPA is focused more on SC2 rather than BW. It's too late for BW now, if anything happens its in SC2.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TWELVE units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
I explain why the poster I refer to has no idea what he is talking about. You resort to insulting me, painting me as a "fucking dick" as a response to the fact that I pointed out his flawed argument and therefore his faulty position. I don't want misinformed people waving the flag I support. I would rather that informed opinions educate people about the situation (as Stork did) versus misinformed people saying factually incorrect things, thereby creating altercations such as the one we've just engaged in where my correcting and expressing resentment at the factual discrepancy of a person's argument leads to more SC2 groupies defending said wrong person.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TWELVE units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
its 12 units... and they are called dragoons
As a previous poster stated, welcome to Romania, you were born there correct?
GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
On May 24 2012 03:20 HaXxorIzed wrote: Good on you for voicing these concerns Stork. Hopefully it results in something.
What results could be possible ? Its the last BW league and maps are already settled , and he says KeSPA is focused more on SC2 rather than BW. It's too late for BW now, if anything happens its in SC2.
This is the saddest part for me. It's simply too late and knowing that this can be the last possible OSL (I hope not) and final hybrid PL before they move on to SC2. KeSPA definitely did fuck up in the sense that they did not really consult players or coaches regarding the switch and made a rash move. Terrible management on KeSPA's part to be honest. =/
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
its 12 units... and they are called dragoons
As a previous poster stated, welcome to Romania, you were born there correct?
Why does it matter where iam from or where i was born? rasist?
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the arguments are old, emotional and stupid, so far absolutely nothing good has come out of them other than blind hatred. You can talk all you want about how kespa should manage the two games and the hybrid league and what effects it has on players, that's fine. I don't want to see any more posts talking about how collosi suck or SC2 is horrible or bw is bad, especially the "all sc2 fans are morons" and "BW fans are all elitists" that permeated the last couple pages. Thats all.
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
its 12 units... and they are called dragoons
As a previous poster stated, welcome to Romania, you were born there correct?
Why does it matter where iam from or where i was born? rasist?
On May 24 2012 02:07 SlowBullets wrote: Yup, the general trend: too many SC2 players saying they "loved" Brood War yet lack the basic knowledge of how the game actually works. Then they say they played it when they were 10 (probably playing Bunker Wars and other UMS all day) without ever following the pro scene.
I'm sure they love the game all right.
That's how stupid people work, what did you fucking expect from them?
On May 24 2012 02:26 randoomguy wrote:
On May 24 2012 01:58 Jealous wrote:
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
So it's elitist now to hate on stupid post by stupid posters? That's a stupid idea....
Hey man what's your problem? I LOVE BW, I remember when it first came out I used to play the campaign all the time for a day, but it got pretty hard when you can only have 6 in a control group and the stalkers walk really strangely.
If you really loved BW, you would let it go.
PS: I can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
People like you and your stupidity make me really question why I come into this forum anymore. In BW, you can have TEN units in a control groups, and those units aren't called stalkers, they are called goliaths.
its 12 units... and they are called dragoons
As a previous poster stated, welcome to Romania, you were born there correct?
Why does it matter where iam from or where i was born? rasist?
On May 24 2012 03:20 HaXxorIzed wrote: Good on you for voicing these concerns Stork. Hopefully it results in something.
What results could be possible ? Its the last BW league and maps are already settled , and he says KeSPA is focused more on SC2 rather than BW. It's too late for BW now, if anything happens its in SC2.
This is the saddest part for me. It's simply too late and knowing that this can be the last possible OSL (I hope not) and final hybrid PL before they move on to SC2. KeSPA definitely did fuck up in the sense that they did not really consult players or coaches regarding the switch and made a rash move. Terrible management on KeSPA's part to be honest. =/
Considering that they are a non-profit organization that depends on the success of the players and therefore the fans' perspectives, I also agree that their move considering Korea's gaming climate was ill-advised.
~Tadashan: Old TL joke that states that Romanians can't understand sarcasm over the internet, so no I am not 'rasist' but I am TList.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
I explain why the poster I refer to has no idea what he is talking about. You resort to insulting me, painting me as a "fucking dick" as a response to the fact that I pointed out his flawed argument and therefore his faulty position. I don't want misinformed people waving the flag I support. I would rather that informed opinions educate people about the situation (as Stork did) versus misinformed people saying factually incorrect things, thereby creating altercations such as the one we've just engaged in where my correcting and expressing resentment at the factual discrepancy of a person's argument leads to more SC2 groupies defending said wrong person.
i don't wanna argue but he just said he think ´BW is a fairly good game which i agree on,(i am noob btw)he didn't say anything about balance or anything like that he just said a reason why some people don't like BW(which i agree on that many don't like it because of graphics)like i have several that don't play it for that reason.please i am sorry if i offended u but please be understanding.i have already got warned for talking about BW vs sc2 and that was not my intention,this is all i wanted to say
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the arguments are old, emotional and stupid, so far absolutely nothing good has come out of them other than blind hatred. You can talk all you want about how kespa should manage the two games and the hybrid league and what effects it has on players, that's fine. I don't want to see any more posts talking about how collosi suck or SC2 is horrible or bw is bad, especially the "all sc2 fans are morons" and "BW fans are all elitists" that permeated the last couple pages. Thats all.
Okay, I can completely understand that, but that's not SC2 vs. BW. That's SC2 fanbase vs. BW fanbase. For example I stated that "SC2 fans like this" [sic] are what makes my blood boil in reference to an ignorant post, which is something that I haven't seen TL punish in the past. Thanks for clearing it up though, because in truth that does occur way too often on these forums. It just seemed like due to your warning people would not be able to discuss SC2 vs. BW in PL and their representation and equality/lack thereof in this thread.
On May 23 2012 22:29 DeluXe1337 wrote: I do still feel that BW is a pretty good game. The balance is good and the metagame is pretty solid like going mech in a TvP. If only most of the foreigners like mself didnt care to much on the graphics and had the multitasking to use control groups of onl 8 then i think that BW would still be great. However, SC2 was marketted towards foreigners. Aslong as people like Stork stay on the BW pro scene it will still be a popular game (unless sc2 gets LAN)
Control groups are 12. Way to make it completely obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If you don't even know the most basic facts, how can you form such a solid opinion? It's SC2 fans like this that post in BW threads that really get my blood boiling. "Don't have shit to say then don't say shit." - Pase Rock
isn't the more important thing what he is saying?and also that he is supporting BW.really this is why people hate bw elitist.don't be a fucking dick just because he made a small mistake.the message is the more important thing.don't u think?
I explain why the poster I refer to has no idea what he is talking about. You resort to insulting me, painting me as a "fucking dick" as a response to the fact that I pointed out his flawed argument and therefore his faulty position. I don't want misinformed people waving the flag I support. I would rather that informed opinions educate people about the situation (as Stork did) versus misinformed people saying factually incorrect things, thereby creating altercations such as the one we've just engaged in where my correcting and expressing resentment at the factual discrepancy of a person's argument leads to more SC2 groupies defending said wrong person.
i don't wanna argue but he just said he think ´BW is a fairly good game which i agree on,(i am noob btw)he didn't say anything about balance or anything like that he just said a reason why some people don't like BW(which i agree on that many don't like it because of graphics)like i have several that don't play it for that reason.please i am sorry if i offended u but please be understanding.i have already got warned for talking about BW vs sc2 and that was not my intention,this is all i wanted to say
I see your point and I see the reasoning behind it. Thanks for the apology, I do think you crossed the line by calling me a "fucking dick" but this led to a more constructive conversation as a result.
The problem with both games is that perspectives on them are completely subjective so the vocal minorities from both sides have a certain sense of ownership to each side of the argument. You say that graphics in BW are bad; I think that graphics in SC2 are terrible because I can't see shit, but I will admit that is probably because I am used to BW. Same must be true for you in respect to BW and I can understand that. However, I also have to point out that the point is as GMarshall said, not which game is 'better' but the subject at hand which is the treatment of Kespa towards its devout players that have supported it for upwards of 8 years (in Stork's case). That is the true issue at hand, and the reason I made my post in the first place is because there are too many people who make posts that clearly display their ignorance of the situation/one of the games. Once again, no harm no foul; I appreciate your apology.
Boss move by Stork! Takes some balls to speak up, bet he is not the only one who is angry about Kespa. I suspect this happened because GSL and other tournaments exist for sc2 so kespa has less power than they used toi. treat players badly and they may just leave now!
i think they should have splitted the players in 2 groups broodwar and sc2 and let the players decide in which"team" they will play so the people have more entertaining games and the players have less stress with playing both games
I just watched the VODs from OSL Day 3... You know I fear for Stork. He looked really lifeless during the broadcast. Someone earlier asked why Stork had tears in his eyes as he gave his interview. I hope he's not contemplating retirement. That's my great fear.
On May 24 2012 03:51 Ryo wrote: I just watched the VODs from OSL Day 3... You know I fear for Stork. He looked really lifeless during the broadcast. Someone earlier asked why Stork had tears in his eyes as he gave his interview. I hope he's not contemplating retirement. That's my great fear.
Knowing Stork, he most likely is deciding whether or not to retire. But if he does retire, you'll just see him show up again six months later, pimply faced, overweight, hair disheveled, with some crazy 1 base or mass expo build that will crush all competition and take him to a glorious, glorious silver medal in the fall.
I've just scanned through the pages quickly, and I seem to get the idea that some guys are thinking Stork has problems with KeSPA in dealing with players' welfare in general, such as salary and stuff, which is not the case.
As much as Stork's appeal sounds very attractive to us, it will not work out, simply because KeSPA is supposedly made up of members from all the sponsors of the seven teams, which provides the accomodation and salaries of all their players, basically almost everything the players need financially. Even if the 'union' is indeed set up, it would just be a farce since ultimately the decisions are still made by the higher ups of the sponsors. It does seem that the players didn't really want this hybrid Proleague in the first place.
And with this coming from Stork, I just feel that a retirement is imminent at the end of this hybrid Proleague(not Stork but someone of high caliber).
On May 24 2012 03:51 Ryo wrote: I just watched the VODs from OSL Day 3... You know I fear for Stork. He looked really lifeless during the broadcast. Someone earlier asked why Stork had tears in his eyes as he gave his interview. I hope he's not contemplating retirement. That's my great fear.
Knowing Stork, he most likely is deciding whether or not to retire. But if he does retire, you'll just see him show up again six months later, pimply faced, overweight, hair disheveled, with some crazy 1 base or mass expo build that will crush all competition and take him to a glorious, glorious silver medal in the fall.
On May 24 2012 03:51 Ryo wrote: I just watched the VODs from OSL Day 3... You know I fear for Stork. He looked really lifeless during the broadcast. Someone earlier asked why Stork had tears in his eyes as he gave his interview. I hope he's not contemplating retirement. That's my great fear.
Knowing Stork, he most likely is deciding whether or not to retire. But if he does retire, you'll just see him show up again six months later, pimply faced, overweight, hair disheveled, with some crazy 1 base or mass expo build that will crush all competition and take him to a glorious, glorious silver medal in the fall.
On May 24 2012 03:51 Ryo wrote: I just watched the VODs from OSL Day 3... You know I fear for Stork. He looked really lifeless during the broadcast. Someone earlier asked why Stork had tears in his eyes as he gave his interview. I hope he's not contemplating retirement. That's my great fear.
Knowing Stork, he most likely is deciding whether or not to retire. But if he does retire, you'll just see him show up again six months later, pimply faced, overweight, hair disheveled, with some crazy 1 base or mass expo build that will crush all competition and take him to a glorious, glorious silver medal in the fall.
I see what you did there, but shouldn't he use two base builds then? Afterall.
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
I agree. But the foundation of this particular issue is SC2 vs. BW in PL. Hence my question, which was adequately answered.
Stork is brilliant, although I was under the assumption that there was/is an official means for them to communicate w/KeSPA on player concerns... but apparently not.
That's definitely an oversight, especially with the BW-SC2 proleague coming about, there was bound to be some issues. I was always curious whether the players opinions/concerns were taken into account by KeSPA, but once again, apparently not (as much anymore?).
The (pro) players certainly deserve a say in certain matters, like he said "Although corporations play a role in forming esports leagues, without the fans, these leagues would not exist. I hope Kespa can be more considerate of the position the players are in", Stork emphasized.
We'll see what happens, I hope they work something out and nothing bad comes of this.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
That's not quite true.
The KeSPA website makes it quite clear. They declare which games are official esports titles and which are not. They decide who is a professional and who is an amateur. In regards to Korea, KeSPA has been designated as the governing body over esports by the government.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
That's not quite true.
The KeSPA website makes it quite clear. They declare which games are official esports titles and which are not. They decide who is a professional and who is an amateur. In regards to Korea, KeSPA has been designated as the governing body over esports by the government.
No. It's one thing to be an official organization with loose relations to the government and it's another thing altogether to actually have any power to "at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs". It's not that simple.
The present administration doesn't really care that much about esports or gaming anyway. When MBCGame fans approached a representative working for the Ministry of Culture to step in to to prevent the demise of the channel, the politician replied that he wouldn't be taking any action and it was up to Kespa themselves.
Right... I'm gonna ignore the shitfest that plagued the previous 17 pages, instead I just wanna say that Stork is the man. Because this isn't about any game that's being played, it's about the people playing them, and doing so for a living.
Now, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that "this doesn't change anything" -- and they're probably right. I think the reason that Stork deserves a lot of respect isn't because he's trying to save BW, or whatever else we'd like think, but rather because he's doing the right thing by protesting KeSPA's behavior towards the players. Personally I've been mad at KeSPA for forcing this hybrid league on us fans, but I hadn't thought too much about what spot the players are finding themselves in. I realized that they were in a tight spot of course, but not to what extent... This format is a lot harder on them than it is on us.
Huge props to Stork for standing up for himself and his collegues.
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
I agree. But the foundation of this particular issue is SC2 vs. BW in PL. Hence my question, which was adequately answered.
I disagree. I think the foundation of this particular issue is more from even BW pros in interviews talking about "foreign teams" and their money. The issue is actually some organizations treat players as commodities, not people, and players need to form an organization that lets them correct problems. (With regards to people retiring, part of many sports players organizations includes retirement planning for the athletes - because tearing up your body can make finding another career difficult. And eSports, at the level that Koreans (both in BW and SC2) play, can seriously screw your body up. Ever notice the glasses? How many champions and top players have had wrist surgery or RSI/CT problems? Okay, it's not quite at the level of "how many concussions did I get this season" or "torn acl" and such, but courting the possibility of disabling yourself at a young age needs some kind of net.) Pro player organizations can help to correct the problems of all the tiers of pro players, but it oftentimes looks to help the unsung midlevel players (the practice partners and support system that helps boost people like MVP and Flash) who are professionals, but who might not make a salary and tournament winnings that can cover health insurance and make up for not having a "real" job. There's a LOT of business aspects to consider (I would love to see someone like FXOBoss and SirScoots address this) from all sides. The vast majority of pros across the spectrum will have not wind up as an "A" teamer, successful individual tournament goer, and if players don't stand up and make their voice heard by organizations, someone like KeSPA or MLG can get by with making arbitrary decisions that will prevent pros from making their living as pros. It's well and good to say that players play for the passion of the sport - and that is largely true. But passion doesn't let you eat, get you to see the doctor, or put a roof over your head. There are a LOT of passionate people in eSports, including fans and players. Not all of them can make their living from playing - this is why Stephano is "only in it for the money". He's French, but also a realist. Even granting an amazing 10 year pro career, what does he do when he hits 30-35 with bad eyesight from straining to see cloaked units and wrists that won't let him use a normal mouse? Since there's no way of knowing, he's playing the game as a pro, but has a different career plan to carry him through his entire life.
Is MLG, KeSPA, or teams, thinking about this with their players? Do they help players to have a "fallback" plan in the event they have to suddenly retire for some reason? Are they looking out for ALL their players, equally? What happens when a pro stops being competitive, but isn't able to sneak his way into one of the caster jobs and have devoted all their time to the game... harming their schooling and their prospects?
(Not all are smart like Nada, and set up their own business. Plus that takes a fair bit of success too.)
TL;dr - this PL season is only a signpost, built on the history of pro gaming. It is not the foundation of the issue. KeSPA has helped, but they seem to moved away from players and more to corporate sponsors.
On May 24 2012 04:38 TehRei wrote: Right... I'm gonna ignore the shitfest that plagued the previous 17 pages, instead I just wanna say that Stork is the man. Because this isn't about any game that's being played, it's about the people playing them, and doing so for a living.
Now, a lot of people seem to be of the opinion that "this doesn't change anything" -- and they're probably right. I think the reason that Stork deserves a lot of respect isn't because he's trying to save BW, or whatever else we'd like think, but rather because he's doing the right thing by protesting KeSPA's behavior towards the players. Personally I've been mad at KeSPA for forcing this hybrid league on us fans, but I hadn't thought too much about what spot the players are finding themselves in. I realized that they were in a tight spot of course, but not to what extent... This format is a lot harder on them than it is on us.
Huge props to Stork for standing up for himself and his collegues.
Yes, he did so despite knowing that there might be consequences for speaking up it.
I'm really surprised at hearing that there isn't already a players association (think NHLPA and similar) considering how long BW has been competitive in korea and the fact that this is the players' livelihood. I think it's a great idea to get something like that going. Good on Stork for raising the issue and trying to make a difference.
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
I agree. But the foundation of this particular issue is SC2 vs. BW in PL. Hence my question, which was adequately answered.
I disagree. I think the foundation of this particular issue is more from even BW pros in interviews talking about "foreign teams" and their money. The issue is actually some organizations treat players as commodities, not people, and players need to form an organization that lets them correct problems. (With regards to people retiring, part of many sports players organizations includes retirement planning for the athletes - because tearing up your body can make finding another career difficult. And eSports, at the level that Koreans (both in BW and SC2) play, can seriously screw your body up. Ever notice the glasses? How many champions and top players have had wrist surgery or RSI/CT problems? Okay, it's not quite at the level of "how many concussions did I get this season" or "torn acl" and such, but courting the possibility of disabling yourself at a young age needs some kind of net.) Pro player organizations can help to correct the problems of all the tiers of pro players, but it oftentimes looks to help the unsung midlevel players (the practice partners and support system that helps boost people like MVP and Flash) who are professionals, but who might not make a salary and tournament winnings that can cover health insurance and make up for not having a "real" job. There's a LOT of business aspects to consider (I would love to see someone like FXOBoss and SirScoots address this) from all sides. The vast majority of pros across the spectrum will have not wind up as an "A" teamer, successful individual tournament goer, and if players don't stand up and make their voice heard by organizations, someone like KeSPA or MLG can get by with making arbitrary decisions that will prevent pros from making their living as pros. It's well and good to say that players play for the passion of the sport - and that is largely true. But passion doesn't let you eat, get you to see the doctor, or put a roof over your head. There are a LOT of passionate people in eSports, including fans and players. Not all of them can make their living from playing - this is why Stephano is "only in it for the money". He's French, but also a realist. Even granting an amazing 10 year pro career, what does he do when he hits 30-35 with bad eyesight from straining to see cloaked units and wrists that won't let him use a normal mouse? Since there's no way of knowing, he's playing the game as a pro, but has a different career plan to carry him through his entire life.
Is MLG, KeSPA, or teams, thinking about this with their players? Do they help players to have a "fallback" plan in the event they have to suddenly retire for some reason? Are they looking out for ALL their players, equally? What happens when a pro stops being competitive, but isn't able to sneak his way into one of the caster jobs and have devoted all their time to the game... harming their schooling and their prospects?
(Not all are smart like Nada, and set up their own business. Plus that takes a fair bit of success too.)
TL;dr - this PL season is only a signpost, built on the history of pro gaming. It is not the foundation of the issue. KeSPA has helped, but they seem to moved away from players and more to corporate sponsors.
I have read this entire post and understood it correctly but my level of inebriation does not allow for an acceptable response, I will PM you when such a time arrives. Thanks for such a constructive response.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
If they had that power, the Blizzard lawsuit wouldn't have been a thing. Had they this power, they would've used it, and drowned SC2 at birth. KeSPA was legitimately scared BW fans would switch to SC2.
Is MLG, KeSPA, or teams, thinking about this with their players? Do they help players to have a "fallback" plan in the event they have to suddenly retire for some reason? Are they looking out for ALL their players, equally? What happens when a pro stops being competitive, but isn't able to sneak his way into one of the caster jobs and have devoted all their time to the game... harming their schooling and their prospects
The biggest difference between SC2 players and BW players is that SC2 players tend to practice few enough hours that they can go to school (NaDa, qxc, Stephano, off the top of my head. NSHoseo is a school team, so I think it's made of students, but I can't confirm that). That's actually one of the big justifications for the Elephant in the Room idea, that top BW players practice long hours while most SC2 players tend not to because they have more freedom and relaxed practice schedules. And I don't want to act like SC2 teams are a worker's paradise or anything (the average foreigner makes $400 a year, according to FXOBoss), but the BW teams always seemed a little sweatshoppy to me, and it makes me feel uncomfortable to watch Flash and think about all his practice partners who are doomed to a life of being a janitor.
It's never too late to get training and a job, of course, but I want KeSPA to provide a way out for these kids to integrate into society in a fulfilling way, and not have their lives ruined by being on a B-team for years. I want to watch KT or SKT1 and know that everyone on that bench, and all the guys they left at home, have the potential for a bright future.
On May 24 2012 04:05 Neo7 wrote: Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
The problem is that KeSPA is government affiliated. Essentially, KeSPA can at any time take over the entire SC2 scene just by deciding that it is theirs. KeSPA could tell all current players of SC2 in the GSL that in order to participate in SC2 in Korea that they must have progamming liscenses and join a KeSPA team. It is really that simple, they are the organization in Korea that runs all esports. As a part of the Sports and Tourism aspect of the Ministry of Culture, KeSPA is essentially the law. Using their power to stronghold SC2 would not benefit anyone and in the end KeSPA's goal is to further esports in Korea. The only people who can at all battle KeSPA in regards to SC2 are Blizzard who own the IP for the game and could deny them broadcasting rights.
I guess you could technically say that SC2 in Korea as it stands outside of KeSPA is not progaming at all, since to be a professional you need to go through KeSPA.
If they had that power, the Blizzard lawsuit wouldn't have been a thing. Had they this power, they would've used it, and drowned SC2 at birth. KeSPA was legitimately scared BW fans would switch to SC2.
Is MLG, KeSPA, or teams, thinking about this with their players? Do they help players to have a "fallback" plan in the event they have to suddenly retire for some reason? Are they looking out for ALL their players, equally? What happens when a pro stops being competitive, but isn't able to sneak his way into one of the caster jobs and have devoted all their time to the game... harming their schooling and their prospects
The biggest difference between SC2 players and BW players is that SC2 players tend to practice few enough hours that they can go to school (NaDa, qxc, Stephano, off the top of my head. NSHoseo is a school team, so I think it's made of students, but I can't confirm that). That's actually one of the big justifications for the Elephant in the Room idea, that top BW players practice long hours while most SC2 players tend not to because they have more freedom and relaxed practice schedules. And I don't want to act like SC2 teams are a worker's paradise or anything (the average foreigner makes $400 a year, according to FXOBoss), but the BW teams always seemed a little sweatshoppy to me, and it makes me feel uncomfortable to watch Flash and think about all his practice partners who are doomed to a life of being a janitor.
It's never too late to get training and a job, of course, but I want KeSPA to provide a way out for these kids to integrate into society in a fulfilling way, and not have their lives ruined by being on a B-team for years. I want to watch KT or SKT1 and know that everyone on that bench, and all the guys they left at home, have the potential for a bright future.
Yea. I agree with this. KeSPA doesn't do shit regarding players academic and personal development. Oh wait. Not only players but commentators as well. E-Sports is huge in Korea as we all know, not as huge as baseball is but it has presence.
That's why a Players Council is necessary, not only because of this unfair treatment players receive by KeSPA for not hearing their cries. They also need to have power in the esports business. After all, they are the engine that makes esports business work. They are as important as the viewers in my opinion. However, as we all know KeSPA runs their business with an unsuccessful bureaucracy.
This is what is happening actually with professional tennis, a clear example is what happened in the Masters in Madrid. The new blue clay they implemented in the tournament without the players consideration was slippery and was not safe for the players. Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic, both huge icons of the sport, make their complains heard. There is a Player Council in tennis, but that's another topic if we were to compare esports and this (I think tennis players council is corrupt or something).
Someone needs to take the initiative. I mean. We never ever heard a complain of a player so blant and directly like Stork did in this interview! I just hope this can change for the better not only for SC, but for eSports in general.
I remember joking about a "dear national holiday" but if BW survives and becomes the only game in PL again, i think a national holiday is due for Stork.
On May 24 2012 03:35 Jealous wrote: GMarshall can you please explain why in a thread that a BW progamer states that SC2 and Kespa's decisions regarding the SC2 vs. BW discrepancy can't have inter-game arguments? It's not about the games in the sense of which game is better; it's more about what one game's presence and Kespa's allegiance to did to the other. I haven't seen any SC2 gameplay bashing in recent posts, simply SC2 vs. BW in the context that Stork has mentioned.
Because the point Stork is making is not about which game did what to the scene. It is about the relationship that players have with KeSPA officials. KeSPA has an outstanding history of questionable and controversial decisions which alienate players from their fans and what they love in favor of bettering their position in E-Sports politics. The problem has existed well before StarCraft II was even announced by Blizzard and it being more noticeable isn't anything new. If KeSPA does not start listening to Stork's warning here, they will be in for an extremely rough future with KeSPA being eliminated from the scene being a real possibility (and the KeSPA teams becoming more like the current scene of SC2 teams that participate in GSL, GSTL, MLG, and others).
I agree. But the foundation of this particular issue is SC2 vs. BW in PL. Hence my question, which was adequately answered.
No its not. Had Stork only said: "if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at BW, it is the end for them " how does that changes the message?
His point is that players are not being treated well by KESPA, they do whatever they want without regards to the players.
this became a shitstorm because some guy came in and said SC2 not that bad, and ... yes it is... Boom
This and because an idiot said something like "Stork has subtle motives to make the claims that he did" just not that straight.
Well, to be fair(and please correct me if I am wrong) doesn't he? Hasn't it always been an issue that players that are not doing that well will struggle? My guess is that Stork only spoke about it now since an hypothetical SC2 switch endangers his good position in the current BW status Quo.
I don't mean he is a bad person, nor shady, I just do think he mentioned this now because things are probably going to change.
Well, I will shut up about this. I don't really like when threads devolve into "my game can beat up yours"
this became a shitstorm because some guy came in and said SC2 not that bad, and ... yes it is... Boom
This and because an idiot said something like "Stork has subtle motives to make the claims that he did" just not that straight.
Well, to be fair(and please correct me if I am wrong) doesn't he? Hasn't it always been an issue that players that are not doing that well will struggle? My guess is that Stork only spoke about it now since an hypothetical SC2 switch endangers his good position in the current BW status Quo.
There are two things very wrong with this line of thought.
1. Stork's argument has nothing to do with having an SC2 switch. It has to do with how it's handled, and how players had absolutely no say in it. He's not saying "No to SC2," He's saying "If you're going to make a switch, at least do it in a manner that makes it easier on the players and the fans."
2. Whether or not Stork has a motive does not change the validity of his statement. Everyone always has a motive. Perhaps Stork was speaking for himself. Perhaps on behalf of some of his teammates. Perhaps a lot of them. So what? Is he factually incorrect? If not, why does it matter? It's clear from any BW fan reading interviews over the years that most players are afraid to say anything beyond PC answers. You really need a top player like Stork to raise any sort of awareness of behind the scenes stuff.
He's basically saying listen to the players and swap fully because playing 2 games at tip top level is to stressful, as theirs no way with current system they are going to get awesome at sc2 unless 100% play or even mantain sick level bw games.
On May 24 2012 10:28 MCXD wrote: Stork is angry at Kespa, not SC2. People really shouldn't read into things which aren't there.
I agree with this. Stork is angry about the way Kespa handled SC2 'transition' not the game itself, the former of which we should all be focusing on here.
On May 23 2012 06:57 HawaiianPig wrote: Around the time when Jaedong was getting royally screwed on his free agency, I remember thinking, "Man, they really need a players association". It's nice to see someone piping up about this.
Poor stork .
100% on this.
KeSPA is management, a hypothetical players union represents labor. The players need to band together and get some negotiating going on for themselves. As I say this, I of course realize I have no idea about labor laws in Korea, but some sort of association needs to occur where players can assert themselves for some minimum terms of the competition for a defined length of time. Hearing that maps are given to them a day or two early? That's ridiculous.
The holes within Kespa show. It shows why many Starcraft 2 representatives are so cautious on forming a new union of teams and organizations. It's needed, but obviously things such as maps one day in advance or so little time to practice both games creates enormous frustrations among the mess of hybrid league.
It really is too bad the players havn't got an organ to convey their opinion, after all it is the players we pay to watch. I really really hope this totalitarian way of steering the scene wont transfer over to sc2, but I fear the worst, especially after MLG already making deals with the devil.
It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
Just this sentence irks me a little. Like he said, it's the fans that allow esports to exist, and with the declining fan base of BW they are switching to SC2 right? So if the BW players can't compete in SC2 what exactly does he expect? Kespa to support them regardless? If the players aren't good enough, that's their own problem.
Most of the players out there are plain too young and fear for consequences or their personality are just ingrained to keep on gaming. In a sense, many players are brainwashed into following every step of the management staff. But Stork is in fact, the second oldest player in the scene (first being Iris). Unlike Iris, Stork's accomplishment supersede that of the Berserker's and most importantly what differs Stork from the rest of the players is his plentiful of other participation, you may call them 'extracurriculur activities" such as leisurely watching animes, reading mangas, and managing a dating life integrated with the game. He examines materials from a grande scheme of things and not only following 'living in the moment'. Other players lack those insights and I think especially under the coaching of Samsung's January, the Khan players show much more personality than the rest of the pack.
I have a lot of respect and compassion for Stok right now, these are very hard times for all of us who love brood war, let alone those who play it for a living - and no one can be happy about the way KeSPA is throwing away brood war and everything that has been accomplished by so many players, casters and coaches...
Kespa should definitely speak/listen to the players because if the players don't play well in the mix format, it actually mess up the viewing pleasure of the audiences as well. BW pro's performance in the OSL SC2 is just not entertaining (at this time). I think that Kespa is looking at this as a business opportunity since SC2 is gaining popularity, thus they would rather have a mixed league than wait till next season to introduce SC2. Kespa needs to remember that eSports is about the athletes. Audiences won't pay for ameturish games.
the broodwars pro scene definately deserve more. they created a esports scene that cannot be compared. it's a shame KeSPA cannot provide the best custom needs to their players, which in essence shape how legendary broodwar is and will be.
On May 23 2012 07:55 Belha wrote: I do not agree with all the "hail stork" around. [...] It is rumored that Stork is not that good at Sc2 (just a rumor). If that is true, then i think stork is just worried about him and other players that indeed and sadly will get out of the scene.
*looks at sudden mod warning on the top of the page*
That wasn't there before...
Belha gets my vote for troll of the week. He turned our BW thread into an SC2 thread: Big mod warning on top and and a whole lot of rabble rabble!
this became a shitstorm because some guy came in and said SC2 not that bad, and ... yes it is... Boom
This and because an idiot said something like "Stork has subtle motives to make the claims that he did" just not that straight.
Well, to be fair(and please correct me if I am wrong) doesn't he? Hasn't it always been an issue that players that are not doing that well will struggle? My guess is that Stork only spoke about it now since an hypothetical SC2 switch endangers his good position in the current BW status Quo.
There are two things very wrong with this line of thought.
1. Stork's argument has nothing to do with having an SC2 switch. It has to do with how it's handled, and how players had absolutely no say in it. He's not saying "No to SC2," He's saying "If you're going to make a switch, at least do it in a manner that makes it easier on the players and the fans."
2. Whether or not Stork has a motive does not change the validity of his statement. Everyone always has a motive. Perhaps Stork was speaking for himself. Perhaps on behalf of some of his teammates. Perhaps a lot of them. So what? Is he factually incorrect? If not, why does it matter? It's clear from any BW fan reading interviews over the years that most players are afraid to say anything beyond PC answers. You really need a top player like Stork to raise any sort of awareness of behind the scenes stuff.
But I didn't say nor try to imply any of that. He has a good point, regardless of motives and his statement is more about KESPA treating players opnions as non important.What I was saying is that Stork probably felt the need to say this now because of the stress caused by the SC2 implementation.
But yeah I read the original post by that guy and it was a trollish comment. Dunno why people responded him
It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
Just this sentence irks me a little. Like he said, it's the fans that allow esports to exist, and with the declining fan base of BW they are switching to SC2 right? So if the BW players can't compete in SC2 what exactly does he expect? Kespa to support them regardless? If the players aren't good enough, that's their own problem.
Well if it's fan bases they are concerned about, they are switching from a relatively large Korean fanbase (if declining) for a considerably smaller Korean fanbase so I dunno why this would irk.
He is playing senior now. I like this guy. But the problem I think with scbw progamers is that they are too young to validly form a union, I mean most of then are not even high school right?
I was going to come in and say something callous about it being a little late in the game for all this talk about starting a players association. Maybe make a witty comment about switching to starcraft 2.
But damn, storks pain and guts really made me stop and think. The poor guy sees himself and his teammates who worked so hard being partially abandoned by their own league, as well as former spokesmen like boxer.
I've always been the biggest Stork fan, back when he was still zitty and awkward. He always seemed to me to be the most gentleman in the TBLS. Bisu might seem petty and distant, Jaedong overly dramatic, and Flash a bit arrogant, but Stork is always level-headed and respectful.
Stork my boy, I volunteer pro bono to represent you in this union or vs. and in your commitments and engagements to Kespa. The issue on the Players' Union has some outright obstacles. One thing is the ages of the players. There have to have a waiver of some in order to be legally represented in the court of law and on their interests. Second, the contracts have to be redrafted since I think the players contracts are drafted on the assumption that exclusivity exists between the teams/kespa and their players, and not the players as an entity separately. There are a lot more, but this is a good start.
Stork initiating this endeavor is only appropriate.
It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them.
Just this sentence irks me a little. Like he said, it's the fans that allow esports to exist, and with the declining fan base of BW they are switching to SC2 right? So if the BW players can't compete in SC2 what exactly does he expect? Kespa to support them regardless? If the players aren't good enough, that's their own problem.
Because they signed their life away to play BW. Now that Kespa is changing the game, they should at least have the consideration to consult the players on how such a huge change should be brought about. But they didn't, not once. And yet the new format creates a huge burden on the players. They've got less than 5 months to prove how good they are at SC2 but under the current circumstances, the players can't put in their full effort at preparing for SC2. If Proleague had been delayed until OSL ends in late July, then the players would have had more preparation time.
just to clarify to those who lack reading comprehension,
stork isn't saying he's anti-sc2, he's voicing his disapproval with the way KESPA is handling the transition from bw to sc2, especially with respect to KESPA's disregard for the progamers in this process.
god usually TL standards are much higher than fomos but even fomos seems to be doing better these days GOD DAMN
like many other things, i hate how kespa is handling things and kudos to stork for speaking up
playing devil's advocate though, it's as if this is kespa's line of thinking: there's nothing that can be done with bw losing popularity... we can continue with bw, but as it is, who knows how long we can keep going (problem with sponsors, both league and for team8)... to try and salvage what we can, we should take a gamble and go for sc2 asap... as for the players, it's best for their mentality to accept the change... getting upset won't do anything...
for the players, i know it's unfair because they signed up for BW and now kespa is switching to sc2... but kespa thinks though that bw is going to die anyway, they're thinking is that we'll try and keep esports going by switching to sc2, which for them is better than these players outright losing any opportunity to continue with their teams as professional gamers
still, as stork mentioned and many have pointed out... they should at least have had the courtesy to consult the players... especially with the timeline of the switch
i've made a blog before that says that i've realized that for these guys, this is nothing more than a kid's game for them... a very popular kid's game that can be a decent business... they don't treat it as seriously compared to if it's a true adult's sport... sadly it seems this really is true... for kespa, these guys are just kids who don't know what's good for them...
** now whether kespa fucked up in the first place - through alienating fans/players (which caused bw's decline) - that is another matter altogether
On May 24 2012 19:14 hmmm... wrote: just to clarify to those who lack reading comprehension,
stork isn't saying he's anti-sc2, he's voicing his disapproval with the way KESPA is handling the transition from bw to sc2, especially with respect to KESPA's disregard for the progamers in this process.
god usually TL standards are much higher than fomos but even fomos seems to be doing better these days GOD DAMN
fyi Stork said months ago, long before the switch, that he prefers LoL to SC2...
On May 24 2012 19:14 hmmm... wrote: just to clarify to those who lack reading comprehension,
stork isn't saying he's anti-sc2, he's voicing his disapproval with the way KESPA is handling the transition from bw to sc2, especially with respect to KESPA's disregard for the progamers in this process.
god usually TL standards are much higher than fomos but even fomos seems to be doing better these days GOD DAMN
fyi Stork said months ago, long before the switch, that he prefers LoL to SC2...
Yes, but even if that was his silent motive behind his public complain, what he say does makes sense (at least to me). And the discussion here should be about the legitimacy of what he said, the problem he adresses and possible solutions, and not why he said it.
On May 24 2012 19:14 hmmm... wrote: just to clarify to those who lack reading comprehension,
stork isn't saying he's anti-sc2, he's voicing his disapproval with the way KESPA is handling the transition from bw to sc2, especially with respect to KESPA's disregard for the progamers in this process.
god usually TL standards are much higher than fomos but even fomos seems to be doing better these days GOD DAMN
fyi Stork said months ago, long before the switch, that he prefers LoL to SC2...
I will switch to LoL once Stork transition to that game just like how kamikami aka Bisu fan will switch to sc2 once bisu plays sc2.
On May 24 2012 19:40 Sawamura wrote: I believe stork has seen better days and this year it isn't one of them...
"Looking forward to a bright future and my passion"
Just compared to op picture and this one and you can see the huge difference .
"This is like I am putting up a fake smile for the camera and saying I don't know whether I will do well in sc2 and if I don't I have to retire "
There's nothing there that isn't explained by photoshop and maybe a good night's sleep. I have noticed that some players, including Jaedong, Fantasy, Stork, and sometimes Flash, tend to look like crap going into important matches. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of these guys half-kill themselves practicing for individual leagues.
On May 24 2012 19:14 hmmm... wrote: just to clarify to those who lack reading comprehension,
stork isn't saying he's anti-sc2, he's voicing his disapproval with the way KESPA is handling the transition from bw to sc2, especially with respect to KESPA's disregard for the progamers in this process.
god usually TL standards are much higher than fomos but even fomos seems to be doing better these days GOD DAMN
fyi Stork said months ago, long before the switch, that he prefers LoL to SC2...
Source? I don't think he ever said that. A few people attempted to manipulate his words on that OGN show towards their bias, similar to a few posts in this thread (hence the original quote) but he really didn't make a statement of preference. He said something like "If I start to suck I'll just switch to LoL or something" as a response to the OGN guys talking about how he plays so many other games.
I'm pretty sure Stork's point is there's just no avenue for communication with KeSPA about player's concerns, and that didn't just start when they added SC2 otherwise BoxeR wouldn't have been asking people for years to set up some sort of union like Stork is asking for here.
I think players should have some sort of a union. Things like players getting disqualified for typing pp instead of ppp and getting DQ is really harsh.
The players put in a lot of work and they should get more say in things. Map pool is one of them.
never was into broodwar but I totally can understand how the bw players feel seeing how many bw pros are retiring and some are left to continue to fight in SC2, I really hope Kespa would let them have a better way to transition.
Maybe Lol is the better way to go, a growing scene and possibly more internationally popular right now
The head of the SC2 team FXO had a big blog post on this. Thought it was worth posting, just because an owner of a Korean team, even a non-KeSPA SC2 one, has more insight than most of us do.
(I'm not endorsing his comments, which I actually have trouble understanding, I just think that a team owner's viewpoint is relavent enough to mention)
The teams in Korea who are not part of KESPA have rallied together to negotiate with KESPA about conditions for players and teams in the KESPA run tournaments.
For those of you who are not in the know, there are many reasons why. But I am going to focus on the interview with STORK.
The poor guy has felt the need to stand up and voice his feelings to the public on behalf of the other gamers who are ‘suffering’ for lack of a better word, within the KESPA organisation.
Whilst some sort of organisational control is necessary in e-sports, KESPA has been very abusive of their power.
STORK is the first person to recently voice legitimate complaints about KESPA with legitimate reasoning behind it since SC2 came out (AFAIK). During his interview he was pretty much crying, and talking about his distress dealing with the transition.
The issue that STORK has raised regarding the BW maps is the biggest concern for me. The fact map versions were not finalised well in advance is a clear indication of mis-management by KESPA and then to force people to play on those maps is just stupid. These guys practice as hard as they possibly can analyzing every single thing about a map before playing. Then to have a brand new map (even if its just a map edit) out of the blue is very hard on the emotions.
He also emphasizes on how KESPA appears to be focusing purely on sc2 and forgetting about brood war. I am not sure on the reasoning behind why KESPA would be so stupid, but its entirely up to them as its their organisation. If they are focusing purely on SC2 they should have just made it all SC2, instead of damaging the players emotionally. Also if they did that I am sure they would have seen far better games than were shown in SC2 so far.
Regardless of the past, STORK has shown us that KESPA is a company full of abuse of power. Which is something the current sc2 pro teams have tried to emphasize to the community via the association.
But there is another side to the story. I was going to blog about this yesterday, but today seems to be a better opportunity.
Considering what STAR players in brood war are being paid, some form of power is inevitable. Its the same in any sport, and even finance. I am going to compare things to finance, as thats pretty much all I know.
When you finish school and enter the work force, you are given two choices in the world of finance. You can settle on a small wage and live your life as average Joe for the rest of your life. Or you can take a risk and aim for the riches.
There are two types of wealthy finance people. There are the ones who went to harvard, and basically kissed their dads friends ass to get a job which they are not very good at OR there are those who enter the work force and take a job unpaid for a year then work on a commission/bonus only basis and work their ass off and make good money. The former, are the ones everyone aspires to be, as they never get treated badly, they do almost nothing and in the end they make good scratch. The others, they are the ones who get whipped so badly they go home and cry at night, they starve themselves as they cant afford food, they sleep on a friends couch and they basically go through hell just to achieve their goal. In e-sports we are now slowly starting to separate the two groups, slowly. There are players who just got in because they are in. And there are players who have worked their ass off to get where they are. There is also a 3rd category of naturally talented people however there aren’t that many of them so I will just push that category aside.
The Korean scene right now is starting to separate also. Those who want to be the best, vs those who want to sit back relax and have people fan them with Palm leaves. Its understandable, when you see someone who does virtually nothing get more money and fame than you and at the same time you beat them 3-0 all the time, you are bound to start to get a bit emotional and even mad at how things work out. Then you will start to hunt for what they have. Right, makes sense.
Now let me go back to our two categories before in finance. Those rich, comfortable, lazy guys, do you know their name? I mean, we all know of them that they exist, and thats what we want to be. But do you know their name?
Hows about, I don’t know….. Warren Buffett, do you know his name? Well, he didn’t exactly cry at night, but he wasn’t handed his wealth on a platter. And guess what? He kicks the ass of every lazy rich finance person out there.
George Soros? How about him?
He was part of the holocaust. I don’t really need to go on about anything else with him, other than he bankrupted the bank of England.
Now to Starcraft.
Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).
Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.
These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.
Whilst I don’t agree with what KESPA does entirely, there is a reason it is done. The same reason that I control my staff, and the CEO of any company controls their staff. Because you believe you know whats best to get people to their full potential.
Truth be known, giving someone everything is counter-productive and prevents proper growth. Rewarding them for hard work is generally the way to go. $300k a yr is not a bad reward (re:flash).
My respect goes out to all the gamers out there who struggle to get to their goal but regardless of their struggle they keep trying.
<fine print> I am not a writer. You are welcome to criticize my writing however, I do not have time to go to writing classes. Perhaps when I do have time I will go to those classes.
I hope your day is full of rainbows and butterflies.
Fxboss Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).
Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.
These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.
If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .
He didn't went through hell because of kespa, he suck it up because it's how the pro scene used to be there is no luxury and easy life style when it comes to pro gaming . You work harder you perform better it's simple as that . I don't know about this but fxboss tend to put his own personal perspective in the situation he comments the most and using the appropriate timing like this just to bash kespa without even having the knowledge of the scene at all.
The Korean scene right now is starting to separate also. Those who want to be the best, vs those who want to sit back relax and have people fan them with Palm leaves. Its understandable, when you see someone who does virtually nothing get more money and fame than you and at the same time you beat them 3-0 all the time, you are bound to start to get a bit emotional and even mad at how things work out. Then you will start to hunt for what they have. Right, makes sense.
Okay I am face palming right now .... Seriously don't comment about the korean scene if you don't know about it deeply .This is like saying the whole time Action who was on estro dedicated his whole life to broodwar and is having hard time winning in sc2 is considered to be a player who is " Relaxing and want to fan themselves with Palm Leaves " . Really ? I don't know about making general statement like this but if you are going to do it it's better if you put yourself in to the player shoes and think about what they are facing right now . I played f*cking bw for 10 years my whole life and now I am being pushed to the limit and if I don't make it in sc2 my whole career is over ?
Now since this whole skill level is reset how am I going to compete with the new guys who are much younger than me . Can I micro the way I did in broodwar for zerg in sc2 ? No I can't because muta's cant be microed in sc2 . So what makes me different from the other player that is playing sc2 ?. Of course I am going to be flipping out when it comes to competing with no namers since the time I invested in broodwar was for nothing .
Fxboss Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).
Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.
These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.
If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .
I think he means when Flash first started playing BW at all, like, when he was 8 or whatever.
By FXO boss' logic, MVP would be a failure in progaming. Because MVP said in an earlier interview that he would not be able to stand the stress of a hybrid league. Perhaps FXO boss needs to have his players play BW several hours a day so they can be better players in the future.
Rofl I don't understand what he is saying at all, not about the finance sector or anything else...
Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote: I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.
Fxboss Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).
Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.
These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.
If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .
I think he means when Flash first started playing BW at all, like, when he was 8 or whatever.
I remember a Reach interview where it said he had played bw like 2 and half year only, given just before his OSL breakthrough. No doubt he had to work a lot to get to the top, but anyone that remembers his child labor teran day knows what too much pressure can do to such a talented guy.
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote: I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.
Absolutely agreed.
He says a lot of words but they got little sense in them. Well, they got sense but it's not quite related to what Stork said or to KESPA at all.
To sum it up: "I don't agree with KESPA on everything, but I will not agree with Stork".
And I really like how he implies that BW pros got everything while doing nothing. Really, really nice, FXOteam.
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote: I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.
Absolutely agreed.
He says a lot of words but they got little sense in them. Well, they got sense but it's not quite related to what Stork said or to KESPA at all.
To sum it up: "I don't agree with KESPA on everything, but I will not agree with Stork".
And I really like how he implies that BW pros got everything while doing nothing. Really, really nice, FXOteam.
I....think that he's calling Stork a whiner? Saying that KeSPA's sweatshop conditions are the reason their players are so good and expected to eclispe current SC2 players shortly, and he should suck it up? I think? The "people with rich daddies" in his metaphor are current SC2 pros, with their two-year head start?
I'm honestly not sure.
On May 25 2012 00:11 wassbix wrote: is FXO some sc2 guy? Cause he has no idea what he's talking about (neither do I after re-reading that wall of text oO)
FXO is one of the largest SC2 teams, and the only foreign-owned Korean team. FXOBoss bought fOu, a low-tier SC2 team, and turned it around and made it a successful team with allegedly high morale, which is why I considered the blog noteworthy enough to post despite it possibly being written by a drunk guy. FXO, incidentally, dropped out of the SC2 player's union (SC2Con) when they tried to fine them for something, effectively killing it, though it hadn't exactly been a major force to begin with and was supposedly biased and corrupt.
He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.
The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Why don't the players just DO it... form their own advisory council, get all the prominent players to join up, both Korean and Foreign, and make their conditions known. And if Kespa wont get on board, you DON'T PLAY, and be absolutely firm in that. THAT is the risk (and it is certainly a risk) that needs to be taken and held fast to for change to take place. There is no Proleague/GSL/MLG/IPL/etc/etc without the PLAYERS. And not just any players... without the best players no one will watch. We have all proven that...
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote: I think his point is very simple.
He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.
The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote: I think his point is very simple.
He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.
The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.
What? Where did I say KesPa does not train their players? I wrote that "... how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc)". That's mean one thing that KesPa abuses their players is how they make them train too hard without considering their physical and mental health. If you are going to say that "KesPa doesn't involve in players' trainings" then that's understandable that I don't know about it.
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote: I think his point is very simple.
He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.
The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.
What? Where did I say KesPa does not train their players? I wrote that "... how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc)". That's mean one thing that KesPa abuses their players is how they make them train too hard without considering their physical and mental health. If you are going to say that "KesPa doesn't involve in players' trainings" then that's understandable that I don't know about it.
Hmm you shouldn't be blaming kespa rather it is the way system works for players who just started to join the B team for example in Action case according to him “I couldn’t eat meals properly. Because, I was a practice partner without a salary. I think some days I ate ramen the entire day. But I did not struggle because of food. Because during time, playing the game was so enjoyable” . Some times becoming a pro gamer isn't about the money rather it's the passion inside you that drives you to play the game . B teamers are usually not treated as well as A teamers and that's why most of them want to break out from that environment to play on tv .
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote: I think his point is very simple.
He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.
The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.
What? Where did I say KesPa does not train their players? I wrote that "... how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc)". That's mean one thing that KesPa abuses their players is how they make them train too hard without considering their physical and mental health. If you are going to say that "KesPa doesn't involve in players' trainings" then that's understandable that I don't know about it.
Hmm you shouldn't be blaming kespa rather it is the way system works for players who just started to join the B team for example in Action case according to him “I couldn’t eat meals properly. Because, I was a practice partner without a salary. I think some days I ate ramen the entire day. But I did not struggle because of food. Because during time, playing the game was so enjoyable” . Some times becoming a pro gamer isn't about the money rather it's the passion inside you that drives you to play the game . B teamers are usually not treated as well as A teamers and that's why most of them want to break out from that environment to play on tv .
I don't care if he enjoyed it, those are abusive and unfair conditions. Players like Flash make 6 figures. The practice partners should be able to eat food
On May 25 2012 00:53 blamous wrote: Why don't the players just DO it... form their own advisory council, get all the prominent players to join up, both Korean and Foreign, and make their conditions known. And if Kespa wont get on board, you DON'T PLAY, and be absolutely firm in that. THAT is the risk (and it is certainly a risk) that needs to be taken and held fast to for change to take place. There is no Proleague/GSL/MLG/IPL/etc/etc without the PLAYERS. And not just any players... without the best players no one will watch. We have all proven that...
There's no shortage of practice partners eating Ramen looking to replace Stats and Action, and players like Flash are treated well. The switch gives good players the chance to threaten going to a GOM team, but the only players who'd be missed are the ones who have the least reason to complain.
The treatment of players varies greatly across the teams. The terms in their contracts are also different. Some teams take a cut of the prize money, others don't. Hwaseung didn't take a cut of their players' prize money but their practice schedule was tough under Coach Cho, although this changed under Coach Han.
On May 25 2012 01:18 xsnac wrote: what a monster is kespa .. only care about money .... poor players ..
AND DONT QUOTE ME SAYING EVERY BIG COMPANY IS ALL ABOUT MONEY !
Oddly enough, it's actually the opposite. IF Kespa truly cared about money, they'd think a bit more about the players. We're not talking about Foxconn or some other 3rd world factories where workers are dime a dozen. These are players being put on TV and selling them to an audience. And Kespa's existence depends on these players looking like stars in front of said audiences.
Even huge faceless corporations give employees benefits and other things to keep up morale so they become more productive. If anything, worker productivity has always been key in company success. This is even more important if the company tries to sell its employees as products. So why won't Kespa consult the most important assets they have?
To me, this smells like failed management rather than greedy corporations. The situation needs to be win-win. The players make the smoothest, transition, happy to play the new game, and start pwning in SC2 and make Kespa lots and lots of money. If the players all get depressed and start retiring, then Kespa is not going to be able to compete against the current SC2 scene and hoarde the foreign money they so desperately seek.
On May 25 2012 01:18 xsnac wrote: what a monster is kespa .. only care about money .... poor players ..
AND DONT QUOTE ME SAYING EVERY BIG COMPANY IS ALL ABOUT MONEY !
Oddly enough, it's actually the opposite. IF Kespa truly cared about money, they'd think a bit more about the players. We're not talking about Foxconn or some other 3rd world factories where workers are dime a dozen. These are players being put on TV and selling them to an audience. And Kespa's existence depends on these players looking like stars in front of said audiences.
Even huge faceless corporations give employees benefits and other things to keep up morale so they become more productive. If anything, worker productivity has always been key in company success. This is even more important if the company tries to sell its employees as products. So why won't Kespa consult the most important assets they have?
To me, this smells like failed management rather than greedy corporations. The situation needs to be win-win. The players make the smoothest, transition, happy to play the new game, and start pwning in SC2 and make Kespa lots and lots of money. If the players all get depressed and start retiring, then Kespa is not going to be able to compete against the current SC2 scene and hoarde the foreign money they so desperately seek.
Yup, at the end of the day, it's just incompetence.
the comments from FXO are wildly unrelated and therefore, stupid. all Stork was talking about was having a players committee to express grievances. there was nothing where he mentioned sweatshop conditions or that he was whining because he didn't get what he wanted.
even the financial analogy was stupid. as far as i know most of the current rich top finance people bust their ass so much that they don't even have time to enjoy their money because they're always working.
owners should have complete control because they know what's best? give me a break. what is this, the 1900's?
and the evil head of kespa rears it's head again. i hope something can be worked out, i love the bw pros as much as i love my sc2 pros, and i don't want them to be mistreated or neglected because kespa is doing a terrible job.
much love to stork for taking up the mantle of standing up for players when boxer took his expertise to sc2.
On May 25 2012 03:16 kainzero wrote: the comments from FXO are wildly unrelated and therefore, stupid. all Stork was talking about was having a players committee to express grievances. there was nothing where he mentioned sweatshop conditions or that he was whining because he didn't get what he wanted.
even the financial analogy was stupid. as far as i know most of the current rich top finance people bust their ass so much that they don't even have time to enjoy their money because they're always working.
owners should have complete control because they know what's best? give me a break. what is this, the 1900's?
Considering that he own FXOpen (http://www.fxopen.com) or at least is a higher up in management, I would say he has a lot experience in finance
But yeah, it's not totally related to the interview. I guess he just wanted to use the interview to demonstrate his point (not ok with how KesPa treat their players in general but understand why sometimes they chose to do what they do).
At least you get to meet him, tell how much you appreciate his work and cheer him on whether what he decides to do in a future? Or isn't a good news for a fan to meet his idol?
On May 25 2012 03:16 kainzero wrote: the comments from FXO are wildly unrelated and therefore, stupid. all Stork was talking about was having a players committee to express grievances. there was nothing where he mentioned sweatshop conditions or that he was whining because he didn't get what he wanted.
even the financial analogy was stupid. as far as i know most of the current rich top finance people bust their ass so much that they don't even have time to enjoy their money because they're always working.
owners should have complete control because they know what's best? give me a break. what is this, the 1900's?
Didn't bisu say he didn't even have time for a gf in an interview? That's pretty sad really when you work so much you can't even get a gf....
It makes me sad. Bisu said since all other older players are gone, that there's no longer a nostalgia factor... Stork is one of the few living relics of BW... and it's terrible that such responsibility has been collectively shirked.
I hope and pray something good will come of this discussion, rather than outright abandonment of the players we love.
On May 25 2012 03:16 kainzero wrote: the comments from FXO are wildly unrelated and therefore, stupid. all Stork was talking about was having a players committee to express grievances. there was nothing where he mentioned sweatshop conditions or that he was whining because he didn't get what he wanted.
even the financial analogy was stupid. as far as i know most of the current rich top finance people bust their ass so much that they don't even have time to enjoy their money because they're always working.
owners should have complete control because they know what's best? give me a break. what is this, the 1900's?
Didn't bisu say he didn't even have time for a gf in an interview? That's pretty sad really when you work so much you can't even get a gf....
In a different interview he said that he doesn't have a girlfriend but he likes to see different women occasionally. They DO have free time. It's just that many of them opt to practice more, especially those at the top.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
At least you get to meet him, tell how much you appreciate his work and cheer him on whether what he decides to do in a future? Or isn't a good news for a fan to meet his idol?
Given that he's still in OSL and has to practice 2 games for PL too, it's probably not very good for Stork to have to take a long flight to the US and then back to Korea again in 3 days. Also, this means he won't be playing in Khan's Proleague match on the 9th of June.
At least you get to meet him, tell how much you appreciate his work and cheer him on whether what he decides to do in a future? Or isn't a good news for a fan to meet his idol?
Given that he's still in OSL and has to practice 2 games for PL too, it's probably not very good for Stork to have to take a long flight to the US and then back to Korea again in 3 days. Also, this means he won't be playing in Khan's Proleague match on the 9th of June.
That's true. I just hope that MLG fly them to the US in advance (like 2-3 days prior to the MLG Anaheim). MLG has a good reputation of taking care the players so I think that should be possible for them to do.
At least you get to meet him, tell how much you appreciate his work and cheer him on whether what he decides to do in a future? Or isn't a good news for a fan to meet his idol?
Given that he's still in OSL and has to practice 2 games for PL too, it's probably not very good for Stork to have to take a long flight to the US and then back to Korea again in 3 days. Also, this means he won't be playing in Khan's Proleague match on the 9th of June.
I would Lawl if you just played the match with inter-continental lag and they zoomed in on the empty booth.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Err, when did Boxer give him the name Stork? He came up with it on his own because he thought it sounded cool.
Yeah, he saw the word in a reading list for his English lang class or something like that.
I think players, and teams, and even leagues will eventually need to meet at a round table to disscuss issues. But esports has to get much bigger, maybe in 3-5 years?
On May 25 2012 07:33 Antisocialmunky wrote: I would Lawl if you just played the match with inter-continental lag and they zoomed in on the empty booth.
wasn't there an incident in the early days of BW where someone stayed up practicing all night and they actually fell asleep before the match started and they had trouble waking him up?
On May 25 2012 07:33 Antisocialmunky wrote: I would Lawl if you just played the match with inter-continental lag and they zoomed in on the empty booth.
wasn't there an incident in the early days of BW where someone stayed up practicing all night and they actually fell asleep before the match started and they had trouble waking him up?
I think you mean he fainted. That would be silent_control
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
I remember Seas mass factory game, that was so awesome. his macro is so good, (he had like 20 or so factories with the lab, and pumped out tanks)
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
Boxer also when asked to name a Player like himself who could continue being a progamer into their 30's names Stork.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
Boxer also when asked to name a Player like himself who could continue being a progamer into their 30's names Stork.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
Only in the single leagues, though! Sea has always been a beast in teamleagues! At least as far as I can remember.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
Only in the single leagues, though! Sea has always been a beast in teamleagues! At least as far as I can remember.
As I recall, Sea was a pretty sick player in the proleagues, and showed up in OSLs a lot as a serious prospect. He was a very good player, just not a legend.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Boxer mentioned a young and upcoming player for each race. Stork as protoss, Sea as terran, and Savior as zerg. Stork and Savior succeeded. Sea failed.
Boxer also when asked to name a Player like himself who could continue being a progamer into their 30's names Stork.
Sea was one of the most consistent players in proleague for many many years, almost like a safe bet. And then he will always make it out of the qualifiers and reach the starleagues only to choke big time. The question was: will his proleague performance translate to starleague wins one day, or will it happen the other way. By now we all know the answer.
"It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
You don't know what they sacrificed for BW, and how the Korean Education System works.
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
You don't know what they sacrificed for BW, and how the Korean Education System works.
Why would you sacrifice so much for something that will only gives you so little. Lots of parents are VERY un-supportive of their children leaving school to become or attempt to become pro-gamers... sounds like some people made some questionable decisions.
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
You don't know what they sacrificed for BW, and how the Korean Education System works.
And go read Bisu's interview by TL. He specifically mentioned that he was totally set to play Brood War until the appropriate retirement age.
On May 25 2012 22:13 RamenStyle wrote: Sea was one of the most consistent players in proleague for many many years, almost like a safe bet. And then he will always make it out of the qualifiers and reach the starleagues only to choke big time. The question was: will his proleague performance translate to starleague wins one day, or will it happen the other way. By now we all know the answer.
In terms of raw talent, Sea was very highly thought of both by coaches and players during the early years of his career. In Proleague that talent did manifest itself but a combination of inadequate preparation and mental weakness led to comparatively poor results in individual leagues.
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
"Every other person alive" went to high school. Many of them went to college.
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
Imagine being with a company for 5 years and one day they tell you that you'll be forced to switch to a new position. You have little to now experience with the new position and yet everyone expects you to be the best at it. If you don't do a great in your new position you'll be release from the company all together. Oh and did I mention that you will continue to work both positions at the same time.
That is what these guys are going through. I can't imagine the amount of stress and uncertainty they feel for their futures. On top of that they are getting paraded around like a circus act for MLG! I won't get into that. If I were in their shoes I would do a worker rush everytime they sent me out to play.
I would say that Boxer was wrong in his picks. Savior failed massively after succeeding massively, Sea is a great player but stuck in OSL limbo, and Stork took after his Yellow protege than him.
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
You don't know what they sacrificed for BW, and how the Korean Education System works.
And go read Bisu's interview by TL. He specifically mentioned that he was totally set to play Brood War until the appropriate retirement age.
In general sports players have trouble transitioning out of their career. This is the same whether you're talking about B-teamers in BW or multi-millionaires playing in the NBA. This is because their identity and existence was set at a very young age. Whereas most "normal" people go through the process of high school/college to find their calling in life. It's different when your career's set since age of 12, rather than starting to look for a job at 22.
On May 25 2012 06:48 firehand101 wrote: He puts boxer in the highest regards, and i respect him for that
Well Stork IS a name given to him by BoxeR. Not to mention the fact that before Stork had broken out into the high level scene BoxeR dubbed him the NEXT BIG THING.
Generally people who've been named by/under the tutelage of BoxeR have turn out to be something of Demi-Gods. Stork was no different, makes sense he respects him so much.
Sea was the one dubbed by Boxer to be the next big thing ;_;
Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
On May 26 2012 08:17 -stOpSKY- wrote: "It might not matter to players who earn a lot of money but as a whole, if the top players and middle ranking players don't do well at SC2, it is the end for them."
Ok? Then they can get a normal job or find something else they like doing for a career, just like every other person alive. Did they expect this game to live on forever and they would continue to play SC:BW professionally for the rest of their lives? lol
very classy to talk like this to people who took on a job instead of getting an education before they were even 20. their options are severely limited by their entrance into progaming and kespa et al. have shown no interest in taking care of them
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
This. I can't see how Sea is "undeniably" the best terran to never win a title when you have players like freaking midas and iris!!!
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
This. I can't see how Sea is "undeniably" the best terran to never win a title when you have players like freaking midas and iris!!!
TL.net's opinion of Sea has been quite biased ever since his TL Attack. So take any Sea fanboydom with a grain of salt. That said, Sea may be the greatest terran to not reach a SL finals. I think his only opponent in this regard is Leta.
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
This. I can't see how Sea is "undeniably" the best terran to never win a title when you have players like freaking midas and iris!!!
TL.net's opinion of Sea has been quite biased ever since his TL Attack. So take any Sea fanboydom with a grain of salt. That said, Sea may be the greatest terran to not reach a SL finals. I think his only opponent in this regard is Leta.
Well it depends what we're talking about here by greatest terran not to reach a SL finals. There are contenders for most skilled player ever like Leta, Sea, Really, Baby, or Light, then there are great team contributors like firebathero, Hiya, skyhigh, and Canata, or just tough presences like Midas, Iris, Hwasin. But if you are talking about respective to eras, it might be prudent to talk about ChRh or Themarine, and the entire aptness of this question of the best player never to win a title or get to a finals is brought into question by the fact that even Casy has a Starleague win. It's just kind of a nice thought that there's one player we can point to as sort of epitomizing the plight of people who never attain individual league glory but nonetheless have stuck with their team for the long haul and given it their best, and Sea is a cool guy so why not him?
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
This. I can't see how Sea is "undeniably" the best terran to never win a title when you have players like freaking midas and iris!!!
TL.net's opinion of Sea has been quite biased ever since his TL Attack. So take any Sea fanboydom with a grain of salt. That said, Sea may be the greatest terran to not reach a SL finals. I think his only opponent in this regard is Leta.
Well it depends what we're talking about here by greatest terran not to reach a SL finals. There are contenders for most skilled player ever like Leta, Sea, Really, Baby, or Light, then there are great team contributors like firebathero, Hiya, skyhigh, and Canata, or just tough presences like Midas, Iris, Hwasin. But if you are talking about respective to eras, it might be prudent to talk about ChRh or Themarine, and the entire aptness of this question of the best player never to win a title or get to a finals is brought into question by the fact that even Casy has a Starleague win. It's just kind of a nice thought that there's one player we can point to as sort of epitomizing the plight of people who never attain individual league glory but nonetheless have stuck with their team for the long haul and given it their best, and Sea is a cool guy so why not him?
Midas fits in all three categories. I love Sea and all, he's a good player, it's undeniable. But seriously, Midas. Toe to toe with sAviOr, great innovator in TvP and TvZ, and lengthy carrier. Plus he's cute. Midas all the way.
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
This. I can't see how Sea is "undeniably" the best terran to never win a title when you have players like freaking midas and iris!!!
TL.net's opinion of Sea has been quite biased ever since his TL Attack. So take any Sea fanboydom with a grain of salt. That said, Sea may be the greatest terran to not reach a SL finals. I think his only opponent in this regard is Leta.
Well it depends what we're talking about here by greatest terran not to reach a SL finals. There are contenders for most skilled player ever like Leta, Sea, Really, Baby, or Light, then there are great team contributors like firebathero, Hiya, skyhigh, and Canata, or just tough presences like Midas, Iris, Hwasin. But if you are talking about respective to eras, it might be prudent to talk about ChRh or Themarine, and the entire aptness of this question of the best player never to win a title or get to a finals is brought into question by the fact that even Casy has a Starleague win. It's just kind of a nice thought that there's one player we can point to as sort of epitomizing the plight of people who never attain individual league glory but nonetheless have stuck with their team for the long haul and given it their best, and Sea is a cool guy so why not him?
Midas fits in all three categories. I love Sea and all, he's a good player, it's undeniable. But seriously, Midas. Toe to toe with sAviOr, great innovator in TvP and TvZ, and lengthy carrier. Plus he's cute. Midas all the way.
At least Midas has a WCG gold and an OSL bronze to show for it. Sea is 55%+ in all match ups even with his slump period taken into account, if you only count from his pre 2010 days he's 58%+ (and if you only consider his prime period, close to 60%) in all match ups with a 65% in TvP, even Midas who's an innovator in TvP only had comparable or lower to that record in his prime. Sea's not even made it to a Ro4, he should at least be the greatest terran not to reach a SL semi finals. Between different eras of fans he's either way over hyped or way under appreciated.
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Nah it's boxer who said that "Over the next two years, which terran, protoss, and zerg players will be the best?" Boxer: "...and for Terran (and this is to encourage him to make more of an effort), Yum Bo-Sung (Sea). After this game: + Show Spoiler +
Either way I don't see how a player's organization can kick off the grounds now since BW is nearing its transition, there's little incentive to form one though it should have been formed a long time ago, maybe a player's organization in SC2?
Am I the only one seeing a legend being angry and disappointed that the game he played for years, will now die? He has to learn a new game and he just doesn't like that. I understand him: he was one of the best players for years, and now he is a gold league player in a new game. Everyone in this position would react like this.
On May 28 2012 02:55 Snowbear wrote: Am I the only one seeing a legend being angry and disappointed that the game he played for years, will now die? He has to learn a new game and he just doesn't like that. I understand him: he was one of the best players for years, and now he is a gold league player in a new game. Everyone in this position would react like this.
I hope I am not offending anyone.
I think you got that interview wrong, hes complaining about how Kespa handels the transition.
I think I'm going to put Khan as my team symbol now, I am not a huge BW fan, I've watched for maybe a half year to a year now of Proleague, but this guy has said what has needed to be said since boxer left. Its time that we have some kind of a change in the system now that the system is changing.
On May 28 2012 02:55 Snowbear wrote: Am I the only one seeing a legend being angry and disappointed that the game he played for years, will now die? He has to learn a new game and he just doesn't like that. I understand him: he was one of the best players for years, and now he is a gold league player in a new game. Everyone in this position would react like this.
I hope I am not offending anyone.
I'm sure he is. TBLS are under a ton of stress, because the playing field has been reset, and everyone nevertheless expects them to dominate (witness Jaedong storming out of his booth after his PL game, and Flash's palpable irratation at not being picked as the Ace). They've also got a lot of drive to succeed, so they're likely frustrated with themselves, as well.
Right or wrong I think Stork has been enormously brave. He has put his reputation on the line at a moment when he might be about to exit the public eye -or at least diminish in status- to say something he believes is important
That alone is worthy of respect.
I happen to believe that a players union could broaden the pool of professional Starcraft players as long as it was widely supported in Korea or the U.S. but that's up for debate.
I'm also a big fan of the moderation being done here. The BW vs. SC2 thing needs to die.
Iris is easily the best Terran to have never won a title. Made it to 3 finals, 2 of them went to the 5th game. Also took savior to game 5 in the semis at Savior's prime.
On May 28 2012 02:55 Snowbear wrote: Am I the only one seeing a legend being angry and disappointed that the game he played for years, will now die? He has to learn a new game and he just doesn't like that. I understand him: he was one of the best players for years, and now he is a gold league player in a new game. Everyone in this position would react like this.
I hope I am not offending anyone.
I think you're off-base here. Stork, more than any othe BW player, relied on pure talent and is known for playing other games on the side instead of practicing BW 20 hours a day.
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
I'd rate Sea higher than Midas and Iris. Sea's maintained a high level consistency that those other two just can't quite match up to. And this is coming from a big fan of both Midas and Iris.
On May 27 2012 07:20 miercat wrote: Sea was a pretty big thing. Performed well in Proleague, but poorly in individual leages. Obviously one of the most skilled Terran users in history(Top 10 easily/conservatively).
Sea is undeniably the best terran to never win a title. I also believe it's Bisu that gave him that name. Something along the lines of " Let's run away somewhere , to the Sea "
Iris and Midas disagree.
I'd rate Sea higher than Midas and Iris. Sea's maintained a high level consistency that those other two just can't quite match up to. And this is coming from a big fan of both Midas and Iris.
Stork is the man for being honest. I'd love to see like a players union in both SC2 and maybe the remainder of Brood War. Can you imagine if there was a player strike? Imagine how much power they could potentially have to help solve their issues.
Wait a second....didn't Sundance once say that he hopes SC2 and esports would one day be big enough for a lockout?? I'd love to see Stork be the Derek Fisher for the SC2 players' union strike haha.
On May 30 2012 18:59 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Sea single handedly dragged down Team 8. I will never forgive him for that
Sea and Killer were the main underperformers, and considering they were forced to practice SC2 at the time, them slumping was understandable. Killer quit, meaning he didn't like SC2, so you could imagine how the dual-practice regime affected him, and Sea always struck me as a person who can't do things half-heartedly, so I don't think dualing games is for him. His lacking micro was the main thing that stood out, and this is a result of lack of practice, and if you're not able to practice as much as before, it's bound to affect your confidence. You could argue that it was the same for everybody, but it's not, because they are all different. Very few have the mental strength of Flash, and some players rely more on mechanics, while some rely on game sense. It's also quite probable that Sea doesn't like SC2 either, and that he's only sticking around for a while to milk out the last of his salary, or because he feels obliged to stay and support his friends until things are more stable. When this season is over, I bet that we will see a lot of players retiring.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AYw9I.jpg)
Stork is angry. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wqGrf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1470/14520379.gif)
but he has been playing since 2005, and one of the longest careers in bw, he is experienced and he would make a good leader
kespa 
![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/6tfloh.jpg)
