EPTSuch an idea won't really work, but if the go with it, the SC2 thread MUST indicate in bold bold letters what happened in the BW half, otherwise they would not know whether or not an ACE match would be played if so-and-so won, or WHY an ace match is being played. The whole thing seems messy. Also, the "pointless" arguing of BW vs SC2 shouldn't be outright banned. People should be punished for saying stupid things, yes, and they will, but I've read on here numerous and valid comparisons between the two games, both in favor of BW and of SC2. I mean this is SC1 AND SC2: seems like the most logical time to make a comparison between two games, right? Halo 1 vs Halo 2, Ocarina of Time vs Majora's Mask, that kind of shit.
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10341 Posts
Such an idea won't really work, but if the go with it, the SC2 thread MUST indicate in bold bold letters what happened in the BW half, otherwise they would not know whether or not an ACE match would be played if so-and-so won, or WHY an ace match is being played. The whole thing seems messy. Also, the "pointless" arguing of BW vs SC2 shouldn't be outright banned. People should be punished for saying stupid things, yes, and they will, but I've read on here numerous and valid comparisons between the two games, both in favor of BW and of SC2. I mean this is SC1 AND SC2: seems like the most logical time to make a comparison between two games, right? Halo 1 vs Halo 2, Ocarina of Time vs Majora's Mask, that kind of shit. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
If they can get rid of the deathball issue, BW players will be at least a little more comfortable with SC2. But Dustin stated it many times (korean interview, GDC2011, Blizzcon2011) that they are not gonna change the deathball, because pathing in SC2 is good, awesome, and perfect. Dustin simple doesn't understand that you can have good pathing and no deathball at the same time. Sign. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On May 11 2012 12:03 densha wrote: I'm sure you're right, but that's just not been my experience. I also understand that BW is physically more difficult to play, but there comes a time where you can't blame every mistake on that sort of thing. If I have to keep reminding myself of 12-unit control groups every second in order to be impressed with the game, then that's not necessarily a good viewing experience for me. The argument can be turned around a bit, too. For example, if SC2 can let you be lazy with control groups and whatnot, it's really impressive when someone like MarineKing ('who's bio control is a tier above anyone else's right now) puts in so much effort to meticulously control his units. He shows that micro can be rewarded handsomely in SC2. He's also been so consistently GREAT for two years that he shows, along with MVP, MC, and some others, that SC2 rewards skill and is not some dice-roll like some believe. Anyway, I'm sort of going off topic. I guess it comes down to just enjoying whatever game you started out with and understand most deeply. I still don't see one being objectively better than the other. It's one way to say that the game sucks because it has 12 unit control I guess. For me, the very sight of an army moving across the map smoothly raises excitement because I know how freaking hard it actually is. I can look at BW pros and say "How the fuck does he do that all that" a lot. In SC2 only select players like MKP give out that feeling, and it's not nearly as often. Also, while MKP's mechanics seem great, but he was absolutely nobody in BW. I remember watching that infamous game at the GSTL finals, he was dodging storms like a boss but his money still went up to 1k+. MVP, a A-teamer, dominated MKP thoroughly in SC2 for a reason. None of them were as consistently great, MKP looked half dead during the second half of 2011, and MVP went down to code A. EDIT: That's not to say they suck or that SC2 requires no skill. The level of play is rising and I'm still interested. I still play it too. It's just that BW has more going for it IMO. The day after the GSTL finals, I watched the Proleague finals vods, and I can't even remember why I ever bothered to watch GSTL last night instead. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc? It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites. | ||
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ArcTimes
Peru269 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:15 Gosi wrote: Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW. I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc? It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites. lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
You really have to play it to understand it. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 11 2012 12:47 larse wrote: If they can get rid of the deathball issue, BW players will be at least a little more comfortable with SC2. But Dustin stated it many times (korean interview, GDC2011, Blizzcon2011) that they are not gonna change the deathball, because pathing in SC2 is good, awesome, and perfect. Dustin simple doesn't understand that you can have good pathing and no deathball at the same time. Sign. This is a flat-out lie. One of the main goals of HotS was to get rid of it. The stated rationale of units like the oracle and the (now cut) shredder is to use up supply in units that aren't useful in a battle, thus replacing big deathballs with smaller engagements with smaller armies, where micro will matter more. He does refuse to break the pathfinding, but he does understand you can have pathfinding and no deathballs, because he's actively trying. (This is the infamous "If you like BW, play BW" interview. Skip to 11 for the deathball question) Browder: We are looking to pull food out of those balls, as much as possible, which is the motivation for the shredder in the first place. We're trying to pull some of the food out of those balls, and create some more different small-scale tactics that happen across the map even in the endgame. We get some of that with Terran drops now, which is really nice. But, we'd love to pull some of that food out. The oracle's probably going to pull some of that food out. [...] So, if we find a solution, and if we can do stuff by creating units that are designed to be used elsewhere, then we'll do that. I mean, hate SC2 all you like, but be honest about it. He refused to break the pathfinding because people were explicitly asking him to do exactly that to make SC2 more like BW. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
Of course encouraging smaller engagements in general with fewer units helps a lot, too, and that's what HOTS and FRB are going towards, in theory. I think mostly Blizzard is just slow at doing things, and might be afraid of making drastic changes to the game. Anyways, I guess I might watch some of these matches. I'm curious, anyway, how good the players are at SC2. I enjoyed watching ForGG and Hyun play post-switch a fair bit, it's kind of refreshing and interesting. But generally the game-quality will probably be pretty bad. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
And the beauty with watching BW or just any professional sport is seeing those guys doing things you could only dream about doing yourself. In SC2 there is no hype at all when someone is spamming storms and the casters goes "OMG SICK STOOORMS!!!!!!" when everyone that watches that game could land the exact same storms because of smartcasting. The same thing with "BEAUTIFUL FORCE FIELDS!!!" and "BEAUTIFUL FUNGALS!!" that everyone can do by just pressing one button and spam mouse 1. The last 2 spells are also lame as fuck because they shut down micro in a way it shouldn't in Starcraft or RTS in general. ~_~ | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:25 Ribbon wrote: This is a flat-out lie. One of the main goals of HotS was to get rid of it. The stated rationale of units like the oracle and the (now cut) shredder is to use up supply in units that aren't useful in a battle, thus replacing big deathballs with smaller engagements with smaller armies, where micro will matter more. He does refuse to break the pathfinding, but he does understand you can have pathfinding and no deathballs, because he's actively trying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWUdMJVMvkY (This is the infamous "If you like BW, play BW" interview. Skip to 11 for the deathball question) Browder: We are looking to pull food out of those balls, as much as possible, which is the motivation for the shredder in the first place. We're trying to pull some of the food out of those balls, and create some more different small-scale tactics that happen across the map even in the endgame. We get some of that with Terran drops now, which is really nice. But, we'd love to pull some of that food out. The oracle's probably going to pull some of that food out. [...] So, if we find a solution, and if we can do stuff by creating units that are designed to be used elsewhere, then we'll do that. I mean, hate SC2 all you like, but be honest about it. He refused to break the pathfinding because people were explicitly asking him to do exactly that to make SC2 more like BW. I know most of the new HOTS units are designed to address the deathball issue. But whether they will work as Dustin intended is something to be seen in the future. I am a little pessimistic about those new units' ability to reduce deathball phenomena. Shredder is cut. And now do you think we can rely on just two units (oracle and viper) to fulfill the overwhelmingly difficult task of reducing the deathball phenomena? I can't be very optimistic about this. In today's matchup, storm is strong enough to make terran players call protoss OP late-game. Even though, terran is still going MMM deathball against the powerful storm. The pathing mechanic to produce deathball is just too fundamental that in the unit level you can't easily change it. More fundamentally, there are still some other ways to address the deathball issue without breaking the pathing system. For example, (1) increasing the collision radius of some units. Just some units not all. Or, (2) keeping unit's original formation when moving (actually, in SC2, if you select less than 13 units, they will stay in the original formation when moving to locations outside their group area.) In this way, units will still clump up when there are narrow chokes, but in the wide open field they will be a little bit more spreadout. The differences are in fact small, so people don't need to worry about new balance issues like "fxxx, AOE will not work anymore". But I don't see these changes coming because as I said Dustin will not understand and consider these two options to address the deathball issue. At the end BW players will suffer from that, at least for the moment. On May 11 2012 14:00 Gosi wrote: It's not just the deathball and pathing thing that is the problem for me. It's reactors, larva injects and warpgate+chronoboost that makes the gameplay so fast paced that it doesn't allow comebacks. It also leads to way to much "army dancing" back and forth because if you lose the fight you may not be able to re-produce fast enough and just lose. And some dumb unit designs that doesn't offer any micro at all. And the lack of zone control and defenders advantage is a big problem too. Blizzard are trying to fix that to HotS I think, but the units they have come up with are so dumb. To proud to even port a BW lurker so they make their own wannabe-lurker that is like the lamest thing I've seen. And the beauty with watching BW or just any professional sport is seeing those guys doing things you could only dream about doing yourself. In SC2 there is no hype at all when someone is spamming storms and the casters goes "OMG SICK STOOORMS!!!!!!" when everyone that watches that game could land the exact same storms because of smartcasting. The same thing with "BEAUTIFUL FORCE FIELDS!!!" and "BEAUTIFUL FUNGALS!!" that everyone can do by just pressing one button and spam mouse 1. The last 2 spells are also lame as fuck because they shut down micro in a way it shouldn't in Starcraft or RTS in general. ~_~ This is a very good point. I also feel the same that comeback is more likely in SC1 and the progress for victory is slower in BW. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:22 Doodsmack wrote: I have a strong feeling, especially after reading flash and storks comments, that there won't be domination by BW pros. It will be all about how much you've practiced SC2. Can't wait to say I told you so to the SC2 haters  .If you had any common sense you would notice they are practicing two games at once lol. | ||
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:21 ArcTimes wrote: lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14649339 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14649352 There are just some minority from both sides(like this SC2 guy and the so called "BW elitists" he is referring to). A single LR thread won't definitely work anytime soon so we really have to split them. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Surprising no one, KeSPA and MLG have signed a multi-year partnership. BW pros will be coming to California to play an exhibition tournament in SC2. So, if you want some autographs, and you live near Anaheim, you might as well. Or if you want to do some kind of pro-BW protest. | ||
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Wedge
Canada580 Posts
Quality of games of both will not neccessarily be that high, though of course, the cynic in me feels that the vast majority of training time will be devoted to SC2 (Its obviously going to be the future, for better or worse), and much of the BW stuff is going to be pale in comparison to what it used to be, though we can already sorta see the signs. Ugh, not the most ideal way to close things off. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On May 11 2012 13:21 ArcTimes wrote: lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect. Practically every thread these days is dominated by these types of people. Its really the majority of sc2 people that do this. They can't even tell when coaches and players are simply saying these things for PR. All these positive statements are complete 180s from what they were saying just weeks earlier. On another point, I think that the only way BW people are going to feel like sc2 has any skill to it is if they redesign how the "auto-pilot" units work so you have to actually multi-task them and to encourage unit compositions and tech paths that pretty much FORCE you to manage multiple engagements that all require specific micro that makes a huge difference in if you win that engagement or not. More engagements, more micro, smaller numbers of units in each engagement. That's how you reward multi-tasking skill which is what they claim they're going for. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
On May 11 2012 15:12 Ribbon wrote: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-kespa-announce-exclusive-multi-year-partnership Surprising no one, KeSPA and MLG have signed a multi-year partnership. BW pros will be coming to California to play an exhibition tournament in SC2. So, if you want some autographs, and you live near Anaheim, you might as well. Or if you want to do some kind of pro-BW protest. if A teamers keep flying out to MLGs and shit, then B teamers will get to play in PL.....The bad news the quality of games will still be bad in PL. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 11 2012 15:20 sCCrooked wrote: Practically every thread these days is dominated by these types of people. Its really the majority of sc2 people that do this. They can't even tell when coaches and players are simply saying these things for PR. All these positive statements are complete 180s from what they were saying just weeks earlier. I don't think you can trust what they're saying now OR what they were saying then. On another point, I think that the only way BW people are going to feel like sc2 has any skill to it is if they redesign how the "auto-pilot" units work so you have to actually multi-task them and to encourage unit compositions and tech paths that pretty much FORCE you to manage multiple engagements that all require specific micro that makes a huge difference in if you win that engagement or not. More engagements, more micro, smaller numbers of units in each engagement. That's how you reward multi-tasking skill which is what they claim they're going for. There's a Terran named Gumiho who plays TvZ by dropping about three more places at once then he can manage (literally flying dropships into spores, sometimes), on the theory that if he botches a drop, he loses the drop, and if the Zerg botches a drop defense, he loses a hatch. It's a pretty neat style, because it has action all over the map all game. I wish SC2 had more of that. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On May 11 2012 15:32 BLinD-RawR wrote: if A teamers keep flying out to MLGs and shit, then B teamers will get to play in PL.....The bad news the quality of games will still be bad in PL. Maybe this partnership would mean better scheduling between MLG and KeSPA events, possibly avoiding the biggest conflicts. And there is that vague wording about "exclusivity" which may or may not mean something. Plus, maybe Koreans will still focus on Korean tournaments first. FXOBoSs relased a blog a few months back where he talked about how he would have to heavily cut down on his team's participation in foreign events once the GOM teams enter Proleague and have to deal with its busy schedule, not to mention the possible SC2 individual league that OGN is planning on having soon after OSL. | ||
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