SC2 Maps: Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana (all ladder).
BW/SC2 Mix
Sets 1-3 will be a Bo3 of BW, Sets 4-6 a Bo3 of SC2, Bo1 Ace Match SC2 if necessary
Teams will submit their players for each Bo3 beforehand.
Players must alternate between BW and SC2. Ace matches do not count for this.
If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing BW/SC2.
Miscellanea
Different races for SC2: Calm (Z->T), FireBatHero (T->P), Great (Z->T), Chavi (Z->P), Rush (T->Z)
Players can be different races for BW and SC2, and can change their declarations monthly.
Games Sat/Sun at 12:00 KST, Mon/Tue at 15:00 KST.
Vague mentions of foreign league cooperation, but nothing specific.
Live Report via PGR21.com
We would like to thank kimbilly of PGR21.com for allowing us to translate his live text coverage of the SK Planet Proleague Season 2 Media day. Original Korean thread.
03:14 GMT (+00:00): And we're done, with the final set of Q&A questions. Thanks for tuning in! Thanks kimbilly, you can follow him @kimbillly (three L's).
One final note from kimbillly: There won't be global broadcasts ready for opening day, but they'll start soon after!
Q: You changed your race for SC2, why? Clam: Before I started I was thinking about which race to play, and I thought it would be more fun if I played a different race. I also thought that it would be interesting for viewers, so I switched.
Q: Could you talk about any other famous players who changed races? Park Yong Woon (T1): In the end, no one. One player did attempt it, however. Kim Ga Eul (Khan): Jangbi tried to achieve his dream and switch to Terran, but he couldn't give up his hope for Protoss and he returned to it. Lee Ji Hoon (Rolster): Flash also said he wanted to play Protoss. Right now we're in the hybrid SC1/2 phase, so I dont' think playing different races will be good. When it changes to SC2 for good, he could consider it. Kim Dong Woo (Entus): Leta said he would try Protoss, but he changed to Terran. Rush is Terran in SC1, but he's Zerg in SC2. I'll have to see more to know if he's good. Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Light suffered a lot at the hands of Protoss in SC1, so he tried Protoss at first, but after three days of excruciating practice, he changed back to Terran. No player in particular has switched races. A Zerg player has said he'd try out Terran, but it turned out he needed a lot of practice. Kim Eun Dong (Soul): For us, Calm. Han Sang Yong (Eight): Some tried at first, but they ran into tough match-ups so they reverted. Zerg players are having a hard time, so they are considering changing. Song Dong Gyun (ACE): It seems that we're doing a lot of race changing. FireBatHero is playing Protoss, and you'll see him show sound fundamentals in his games. Great is playing Terran, and Chavi is playing Protoss.
Q: What do you think of the balance in SC2? S2: I'm not at the skill level to talk balance, but all the races seem good except Zerg. Light: I think Zerg looks the weakest, and Terran is a race that looks strong when played well. However, I haven't reached that level yet, and TvP is a bit hard.
Q: The proleague will be played from Saturday to Tuesday. When you think of foreign tournament schedules, how will you adjust? A: We'll focus on stable operation of the Proleague first, and reach an agreement between association and teams to figure out what to do. We're not sure if there should be a new league altogether, or if we should participate in an existing league. We will think about it after we have increased the value of the current Proleague.
02:57 GMT (+00:00): Q&A with players and coaches!
Q: You said that you think this season is good for your team, could you elaborate? Jaehoon: We've been preparing for SC2 before other teams, and I think we try harder. Also, we're receiving some help as we practice. I can't tell you what it is, but it gives us an advantage.
Q: This new discipline of SC2 will be difficult. Are there any teams practicing with the existing SC2 teams? Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): If I may speak as a representative for everyone, a lot of us know the current SC2 team head coaches. We don't practice with them officially or unofficially, but we receive their advice. Things like how to run the team at first, computer specs, etc are things I've talked about over a drink and thought about. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any practice between the KeSPA teams so far, for fear of leaking strategies.
Q: The ace match is Starcraft 2, so SC1 might become neglected. What kind of weight will you put on each game? Park Yong Woon (T1): Looking at the stats, and the fact that SC2 is the latter half of the series and the Ace match, we're looking at a 6 : 3 ratio of SC2 to SC1. The reason is the maps for SC1 haven't changed, and I don't think player results will be that different. The deciding factor is SC2, and I will have to do a lot of research about how to use players in SC2. Song Dong Gyun (ACE): During the off-season, we've focused on SC2. We don't have the advantage in SC1, so I think we'll go 50:50 once the season starts.
Q: When we ask GSL players, they say SC1 players will be good at SC2. What kind of skill level do you think you're capable of? Stork: SC1 and 2 have different characteristics, and whatever the GSL players say, I don't think I'm at the level to agree with them on that point. The key is how fast one can adapt to a new style of game. I know that players practice a lot on ladder, and though I might occasionally meet a SC2 player there, I feel like I'm lacking a lot compared to them. Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years.
02:50 GMT (+00:00): Player comments!
S2 (T1): We're adapting quickly to the change, and practicing harder than we were for SC1. We will be able to show good results.
Stork (Khan): There's a lot of SC2 in the new format so we're putting in a lot of tough practice for SC2. But I don't think good results will come from just SC2. We'll play both games well and go to the finals this season.
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
Leta (Entus): I've played in a lot of seasons up to now, but I've never felt better. Our players are practicing hard, and we'll show it to you with good results.
Light (Stars): Because of hybrid sc1/2 it will be a tough season, but if we will all try hard and achieve good results. There won't be any missing out on the post-season because of points.
Calm (Soul): This season is an opportunity. We'll all try hard to get good results. Personally I've picked Terran for SC2, and I'll do my best not to get embarrassed.
Jaehoon (Eight): I apologize for not being able to get play well after the team was founded. The tournament format has changed a lot, but I think it will be good for our team. We'll repay our fans with good results.
Piano (ACE): We've always been in last place, but that's the Air Force ACE of the past. We'll show you that the new Air Force team is different. Our goal is reaching the post season.
02:45 GMT (+00:00): Coach comments!
Song Dong Gyun (ACE): We will prepare for the season as we always did. If there's anything different, the players are more self-motivated and active. This will definitely show up as good results in the season. I think it's time for us to put up noticable results. We will think of this season as our last chance, and give it our all in the matches. As head coach, I will do my best to make the optimal environment for practice.
Han Sang Yong (Eight): There were some coaching staff and player roster changes this season, but we are not shaken, and we will put up the opposite results from last season.
Kim Eun Dong (Soul): Every season, it seems my turn to speak comes sooner. I hope I can change our ranking [and turn to speak] next season. We've practiced a lot of SC2 and been told that we're good, but I don't know yet. I'll have to wait and see until the opening match on the 20th. We're preparing a lot, so we have expectations.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
Kim Dong Woo (Entus): Playing SC1 so long, the time of greatest change has come. All the teams seem to have done their own preparation, and we've worked to give our team its own unique characteristics. The coaching staff have prepared a lot in and outside of the game. Expect big things.
Lee Jee Hoon (Rolster): We thought may-june would be an important period, and it's been a hectic year for everyone. It's a fresh feeling starting a new season. Because of finals preparation, we were late in preparing for SC2, but our average age is low so we are fast at understanding and getting used to games. We will be humble and prepare hard for each game. We were 2nd place last season, so we will be 1st this season.
Kim Ga Eul (Khan): There's never been a more unpredictable season. We'll have to wait until the first round has passed to know, but we'll do our best in the given situation.
Park Yong Woon (T1): This season, a new format and game has been introduced. We'll forget existing statistics or confidence, and approach this season with a humble attitude. Many teams desire to change their rank, but we will prevent that and prove that class is forever. We will win.
02:40 GMT (+00:00): Interviews with players and coaches coming up.
02:35 GMT (+00:00): Schedule!
Round 1: May 20th - June 19th. Round 2: June 23rd - July 22nd. Round 3: July 23rd - August 26th.
15 weeks, 84 games.
Post season: September 1st - Sept 22nd. Pre playoff: Sept 1st, 2nd, 4th. Playoffs: Sept 8th, 9th, 11th. Finals: Sept 22nd.
02:35 GMT (+00:00):
Q: Will there be a winners league or all star game? A: We will do those after the end of the season. During the season, we will be busy just running this kind of tournament. There may be cooperation with international leagues.
Q: Will you be using the English client of SC2? A: We thought about it as we considered the global audience, but for now we've decided on the Korean client.
Q: Will you have separate casters for SC1 and 2? A: The casters will be the same, but we will try new combinations. We will make an announcement on the 15th. Btw, we're using the same four casters.
02:32 GMT (+00:00):
Q: Starcraft II requires an internet connection to play. There might be a lot more technical problems than BW? A: We will proceed accordingly. We have knowhow from GSL and foreign tournaments, and Blizzard will help us out so we don't expect major problems.
Q: How will players switch races? Do they declare a race each round? A: Rosters are submitted once a month, and races can be changed then. Players must declare races for both SC1 and SC2.
Q: SC2 is under the curfew policy (players of a certain age cannot play after a certain time). How will you prepare for this? A: It's something we'll have to prepare for. There are no players under the age of 16 that we know of. If such players appear, we will take care of the problem.
Q: Are you using special versions of the SC2 maps? A: We are using ladder versions. The reason is because players have just started adjusting, and we also want to use maps that new Starcraft II viewers will be used to.
02:26 GMT (+00:00): Q & A time!
Q: Will you be using different computers for SC1 and 2, or just one? A: We're still preparing this, because we will be doing different settings for each set, there shouldn't be any problems. A2: The SC1 comps will be the ones we used before, and we will get top spec comps for SC2.
02:25 GMT (+00:00): Game times are Sat/Sun 12:00 KST, and Mon/Tues 15:00 KST. The opening day is May 20th (Sun), and all eight teams will compete.
Opening day will be an 11 hour long event, with SKT vs Team Eight, CJ vs KT, Airforce Ace vs Samsung, and STX vs Woongjin.
02:19 GMT (+00:00): Rankings are determined in order of win-rate > # of wins > set score differential.
SC1 Official maps: Neo Ground Zero, Neo Electric Circuit, Neo Jade, Shin Sniper Ridge. SC2 Official maps: Antiga Shipyard, Entombed Valley, Cloud Kingdom, Ohana (all ladder).
02:15 GMT (+00:00): How entrees work.
Teams submit their Starcraft 1 players before the first set, and then submit their Starcraft 2 players after the third or second set.
The players are revealed as they are required to play. If the SC1 or SC2 series does not need to go to a third set, the prepared player is still announced.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in their next game, and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in their next game. Players cannot play in both SC1 and SC2 on the same day (ace match exception).
Players submitted in the line-up for a particular game who were not required to play are still counted as having competed for this purpose.
02:13 GMT (+00:00): Setup time for players remains the same at 5 minutes.
Minimum team size is six players, maximum is fifteen. Players can register as different races for SC1 and SC2.
02:11 GMT (+00:00): This is the big one:
Proleague Season II match format
Regular season: Best of seven
Sets 1-3: SC1 (Best of 3) Sets 4-6: SC2 (Best of 3) ACE Match: SC2
No change for post season, or finals.
02:05 GMT (+00:00): This season will only have the Starcraft II logo (because they cannot use two logos), and the official title will be Starcraft II.
The event should start around 02:00 GMT (+00:00). Supposedly, this is where we learn about how exactly the hybrid BW/SC2 proleague will work, and a bunch of other details that were not finalized at the eSports vision announcement earlier this month.
I really hope that it isn't some super butchered combination that ruins the competition of both... somehow I feel like this is how its going to go regardless
On May 10 2012 11:02 Umi wrote: I really hope that it isn't some super butchered combination that ruins the competition of both... somehow I feel like this is how its going to go regardless
To me the most obvious move is to make it alternate between one to two rounds of BW and one to two round of SC2. It's the simplest and least draining move on the players. Given that everyone's been practicing SC2, And hold separate playoffs similar to the WL/PL split. Perhaps also making the "grand finals" BW to give it a proper sendoff.
A format that separates the time being playing BW and SC2 would be best otherwise I fear the entertainment quality for both games will be so absolutely poor it will it harm the short term growth of Proleague in SC2.
Edit: Just saw the above post: At least it isn't alternating. This doesn't look like a very good format, because I can see there might just be some teams that forgo the BW part and focus on the 4 SC2 games. Hopefully it'll work out, but I guess we'll see. I feel like there will be a lot worse quality in the BW games since it's never gonna be an ace match :/
Sets 1-3: SC1 (Best of 3) Sets 4-6: SC2 (Best of 3) ACE Match: SC2
No change for post season, or finals.
I presume this means that the finals will follow the same format as the normal season.
What does the "Best of 3" mean? If KT 3-0s in the BW half and goes 1-2 in the SC2 half, does that mean an Ace because they won BW and lost SC2? Or does it mean there are 6 bo3s, each for a point, like in some SC2 teamleagues?
Sets 1-3: SC1 (Best of 3) Sets 4-6: SC2 (Best of 3) ACE Match: SC2
No change for post season, or finals.
I presume this means that the finals will follow the same format as the normal season.
What does the "Best of 3" mean? If KT 3-0s in the BW half and goes 1-2 in the SC2 half, does that mean an Ace because they won BW and lost SC2? Or does it mean there are 6 bo3s, each for a point, like in some SC2 teamleagues?
On May 10 2012 11:17 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, so in order to win a match, you have to win both the BW bo3 and the SC2 bo3 and if 1-1, we go to ACE match which is SC2?
On May 10 2012 11:17 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, so in order to win a match, you have to win both the BW bo3 and the SC2 bo3 and if 1-1, we go to ACE match which is SC2?
On May 10 2012 11:17 amazingxkcd wrote: Hang on, so in order to win a match, you have to win both the BW bo3 and the SC2 bo3 and if 1-1, we go to ACE match which is SC2?
Sets 1-3: SC1 (Best of 3) Sets 4-6: SC2 (Best of 3) ACE Match: SC2
No change for post season, or finals.
I presume this means that the finals will follow the same format as the normal season.
What does the "Best of 3" mean? If KT 3-0s in the BW half and goes 1-2 in the SC2 half, does that mean an Ace because they won BW and lost SC2? Or does it mean there are 6 bo3s, each for a point, like in some SC2 teamleagues?
I had to think about it too when I read Bo3. However I came to the same conclusion as your first one in that Games 1-3 counts in a self contained set while sets 4-6 count as a another contained set. And then goes to ace match when one loses BW and wins Sc2 or vice versa.
The reason why having every game Bo3 makes no sense is that OGN does not have time for that.
VERY interesting format they ended up with. SC2 gets the 4 games, so no team can just brute force their way through proleague with current BW skills. But at the same time, BW getting the first 3 sets means the majority of games in the season will still probably be BW.
Making ace only SC2 is a terrible, terrible decision. A single match in a game the players have no familiarity with just kills the excitement. We could be having epic Flash vs. Fantasy in BW, instead we'll simply get another mediocre game.
Ugh, inter-series game switching confirmed to be required. That's going to be a disaster. Looking forward to seeing Flash be mediocre at SC2 while somehow still being as good in BW.
Teams submit their Starcraft 1 players before the first set, and then submit their Starcraft 2 players after the third or second set.
The players are revealed as they are required to play. If the SC1 or SC2 series does not need to go to a third set, the prepared player is still announced.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
Eww, so players have to play twice in two different games? That sucks because you gotta prepare for both games at the same time and this format only allows 3 players in the spotlight. Terrible rule if what posted is correct.
Teams submit their Starcraft 1 players before the first set, and then submit their Starcraft 2 players after the third or second set. The players are revealed as they are required to play. If the SC1 or SC2 series does not need to go to a third set, the prepared player is still announced. Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So much for developing young talent. Now we are just going to see the top 3 players play both games, as far as i can tell.
My reading of that is that they can play a player like Flash in BW in consecutive matches, until he's run out of days where he's played BW first? For example, they send Flash out for BW on Tuesday, then next time its BW on a Thursday, next time they play on another Tuesday though, Flash can only play SC2?
Or is the "on the same day" thing just a weird translation thing and it's meant to be that no player can play the same game for 2 consecutive appearances?
At the very least for the SC2 maps OGN could have used some ESV maps or other maps made by the communities. And for the antigua shipyard, I hope they edit it to fix the spawn locations.
Game times are Sat/Sun 12:00 KST, and Mon/Tues 15:00 KST. The opening day is May 20th (Sun), and all eight teams will compete.
Oh wow, this is the biggest/best news in here for me... No more 18:00 KST games, 12:00 and 15:00 are both VERY doable for US audiences, especially PST.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
I don't recall them ever using MBC maps either so it's expected.
Teams submit their Starcraft 1 players before the first set, and then submit their Starcraft 2 players after the third or second set.
The players are revealed as they are required to play. If the SC1 or SC2 series does not need to go to a third set, the prepared player is still announced.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
It makes no sense wtf?
They are creating a frankenstein..
I have a feeling this means that if player A played BW and player B played SC2 on match day N, then A cannot play BW and B cannot play SC2 on match day N+1. I can't interpret it any other way and have it make sense.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
Game times are Sat/Sun 12:00 KST, and Mon/Tues 15:00 KST. The opening day is May 20th (Sun), and all eight teams will compete.
Oh wow, this is the biggest/best news in here for me... No more 18:00 KST games, 12:00 and 15:00 are both VERY doable for US audiences, especially PST.
Oh snap, I'll be able to watch Proleague live, then
Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
I think daybreak was made by GSL so it's understandable (but disappointing) that it is absent. If they actually use ladder versions of all these maps though then they're going to be shooting themselves in the foot.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Yeah they were. ESV = ICCUP map-making team, and they used that name when most people in the BW forum last paid attention to SC2.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
I think daybreak was made by GSL so it's understandable (but disappointing) that it is absent. If they actually use ladder versions of all these maps though then they're going to be shooting themselves in the foot.
"Ladder version" only really matters for Antiga, unless they allow horizontal spawns on emtombed, which I'm not sure if even the ladder version allows.
Every single BW / SC2 thread is the greatest shit storm since BP oil spill it's fucking great, not the fact that the best game of all time will never be seen again after this year ( profesionally =( ) but just the amount if rage and what not, very fun =)
Q: Are you using special versions of the SC2 maps? A: We are using ladder versions. The reason is because players have just started adjusting, and we also want to use maps that new Starcraft II viewers will be used to.
That just reeks of advertising. They should be using the tournament versions if the BW players were to play outside of korea...
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
The ICCUP map making team became the ESV map making team, so, yes, they were made by them.
edit: Beat to it. I'll just say that I agree, wish Daybreak was in.
On May 10 2012 11:35 Pelopidas wrote: Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
Opening day should get good ratings because of people (like me =P) giving SC2 another chance to impress, but yeah if it still dissapoints then ratings are going to evaporate after the 3rd set for following matches.
They basically managed to come up with the system that makes the less sense in my opinion. Players will be practicing between both games and that'll just mean less skills and less impressive play in both. Plus it'll affect the way players are used and for what games and arrgg I really don't like this.
Meh.
They should have just completely made the switch over or do one last BW, this is ridiculous.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
If this is true that would be the dumbest shit I've ever heard. This will cause for horrible games if there aren't any specialists for the games and they are being forced to play both games. It makes no sense to make them switch mindsets between different games like that, let the teams decide who plays and not the rules...
On May 10 2012 11:35 Pelopidas wrote: Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
Opening day should get good ratings because of people (like me =P) giving SC2 another chance to impress, but yeah if it still dissapoints then ratings are going to evaporate after the 3rd set for following matches.
It's going to disappoint. Even SC2 fans aren't going to be interested in mediocre SC2 once the novelty wears off.
On May 10 2012 11:35 Pelopidas wrote: Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
Opening day should get good ratings because of people (like me =P) giving SC2 another chance to impress, but yeah if it still dissapoints then ratings are going to evaporate after the 3rd set for following matches.
If you want another look at SC2 to see how well it is now I'd recommend looking somewhere else. There's no question in my mind the players are going to suck in both games with this format.
On May 10 2012 11:35 Pelopidas wrote: Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
Opening day should get good ratings because of people (like me =P) giving SC2 another chance to impress, but yeah if it still dissapoints then ratings are going to evaporate after the 3rd set for following matches.
It's going to disappoint. Even SC2 fans aren't going to be interested in mediocre SC2 once the novelty wears off.
I just feel like walking into this conference and screaming.
On May 10 2012 11:35 Pelopidas wrote: Hahaha what a joke. I can't wait to see the ratings dropoff after the third set. Maybe the audience will leave.
OGN and Kespa have commit suicide. The audience they gain from ESPORTS fanboys is going to be nothing compared to the BW fans who desert. The current SC2 fanbase will also probably be halved with the release of Diablo 3.
Opening day should get good ratings because of people (like me =P) giving SC2 another chance to impress, but yeah if it still dissapoints then ratings are going to evaporate after the 3rd set for following matches.
It's going to disappoint. Even SC2 fans aren't going to be interested in mediocre SC2 once the novelty wears off.
Nah, if we BW fans can over hype the players' SC2 skills so the SC2 fans have no idea if there is some massive meta-gaming or if the BW players are not ready for SC2.
On May 10 2012 11:40 Elegance wrote: Is SC2 really that bad?
It is literally Hitler.
Or it's a decent-to-good game that's slowly improving over time but still falls pretty short of BW and BW fans are angry at it and cut it no slack as a result.
Why is Entombed Valley in the map pool and not Daybreak?
Also I'm not really sure why they went ahead with the change in games mid-series. I mean they have 3 rounds, what's the harm in having 1 fully dedicated BW round, 1 fully dedicated SC2 round and a 3 round as either SC2 or BW. Makes it better for practice.
On May 10 2012 11:40 Elegance wrote: Is SC2 really that bad?
I think it is worse actually.
But let's not ride that train, wait and see, lower your expectations the most you can to avoid great dissapointment.
yeah its just that I've never watched Korean SC2 broadcasts (ive watched a lot of Korean bw), am I just naive in thinking that once all the good players move on to sc2 things will change?
Did they mention anything about broadcasting yet? (will there be an english stream or just korean?) I actually like the idea of havin both games in one tournament. Excited how the BW pros will handle it...
On May 10 2012 11:43 pdd wrote: Why is Entombed Valley in the map pool and not Daybreak?
Daybreak is A.) A GSL map, and B.) Totally bastardized on the ladder, and KeSPA wants to use maps that are on the ladder because players are familiar with them.
On May 10 2012 11:44 0dem wrote: Did they mention anything about broadcasting yet? (will there be an english stream or just korean?) I actually like the idea of havin both games in one tournament. Excited how the BW pros will handle it...
It was mentioned on the last media day that OGN will be working on an english cast, as they have an english cast for LoL. Though, ima stick to my Korean casting
Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
Lost their sponsors? The map making team was never supported by ICCUP in anything but reputation, the same with ICCUPtv. (Which never even saw any of its own ad revenue).
I would say they are much better supported as ESV then they ever were under the ICCUP banner; Twitch.tv, TTeSports.
And while the Map making teams are very similar (still led by prodiG <3) They have picked up some very talented people in the last year, korean and foreigner alike.
Well this is awesome but I am getting so fed up of tournaments using ladder versions of maps.
Especially when the only difference in some of the maps is the presence of a neutral supply depot... there is literally no reason whatsoever to use the ladder version.
You forgo balance and legitimacy in favor of using maps that are "more familiar to players?" What a ridiculously absurd justification for a hugely detrimental decision.
Seriously, they're forcing the same players to play both games?
That's just great. Now I get to watch Brood War with half the the practice time invested in it, and StarCraft II that will make small foreigner tournaments look high level by comparison. Fantastic.
EDIT: The best I can hope for is that at least the Brood War players may be tempted to enter GSL, what with MSL no longer existed. Hopefully some cream will rise.
On May 10 2012 11:44 0dem wrote: Did they mention anything about broadcasting yet? (will there be an english stream or just korean?) I actually like the idea of havin both games in one tournament. Excited how the BW pros will handle it...
It was mentioned on the last media day that OGN will be working on an english cast, as they have an english cast for LoL. Though, ima stick to my Korean casting
Are there any good Korean casted sc2 VODS so far? I've never seen one
On May 10 2012 11:45 X10A wrote: Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
now-mediocre
BW
I thought they said they were using the english client?
On May 10 2012 11:45 X10A wrote: Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
now-mediocre
BW
I thought they said they were using the english client?
On May 10 2012 11:45 X10A wrote: Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
now-mediocre
BW
I thought they said they were using the english client?
They are since they used bw english client, though it'll be hell if they have to play on american servers due to lag. I don't want to bring up the LAN argument here...
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
Lost their sponsors? The map making team was never supported by ICCUP in anything but reputation, the same with ICCUPtv. (Which never even saw any of its own ad revenue).
I would say they are much better supported as ESV then they ever were under the ICCUP banner; Twitch.tv, TTeSports.
And while the Map making teams are very similar (still led by prodiG <3) They have picked up some very talented people in the last year, korean and foreigner alike.
I remember them saying they were sponsored by someone, but lost their sponsorship and chose to rename themselves. Ask Diamond if you really want to know, he posts here quite a lot.
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
Lost their sponsors? The map making team was never supported by ICCUP in anything but reputation, the same with ICCUPtv. (Which never even saw any of its own ad revenue).
The ICCUP map-making team wasn't getting anything out of the ICCUP brand except dirty looks by Blizzard (because ICCUP is a pirate server). They changed the name so that Blizz would start using their maps and doing various other things for them.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
I think they were FORCED to use Korean client since there must be no legal EN version to use in Korean servers, and using those 3rd party software would not be seen with good eyes by Blizzard.
Haha, what a joke SC2 has become in such situations..
On May 10 2012 11:45 X10A wrote: Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
now-mediocre
BW
I thought they said they were using the english client?
They are since they used bw english client, though it'll be hell if they have to play on american servers due to lag. I don't want to bring up the LAN argument here...
Using the korean client.
Probably they'll switch to English when HotS comes out.
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
On May 10 2012 11:45 X10A wrote: Trying to LR this will be absolute hell =/ KR client in sc2, I don't even remember what half the units are TT Maybe the first few matches I'll watch it all, but I'm here for the + Show Spoiler +
now-mediocre
BW
I thought they said they were using the english client?
They are since they used bw english client, though it'll be hell if they have to play on american servers due to lag. I don't want to bring up the LAN argument here...
Using the korean client.
Probably they'll switch to English when HotS comes out.
On May 10 2012 11:49 fabiano wrote: I think they were FORCED to use Korean client since there must be no legal EN version to use in Korean servers, and using those 3rd party software would not be seen with good eyes by Blizzard.
Still not happy that players are going to be splitting their time between BW and SC2... how is that going to give us anything other than players who aren't good at either?
Q: How will players switch races? Do they declare a race each round? A: Rosters are submitted once a month, and races can be changed then. Players must declare races for both SC1 and SC2.
Do we get to see these rosters? I'm curious about who's playing what in sc2.
Still, fuck sc2 ace match. This should be bw's last hurrah. That and even their best sc2 showings are going to be below their now diminished bw. All conversation about the games aside, they picked the less epic skill set for the most epic match.
On May 10 2012 11:49 fabiano wrote: I think they were FORCED to use Korean client since there must be no legal EN version to use in Korean servers, and using those 3rd party software would not be seen with good eyes by Blizzard.
GSL uses the English client, dude.
Do they?
So koreans actually can use english clients in korean servers?
On May 10 2012 11:49 fabiano wrote: I think they were FORCED to use Korean client since there must be no legal EN version to use in Korean servers, and using those 3rd party software would not be seen with good eyes by Blizzard.
GSL uses the English client, dude.
GSL uses the English client for foreign broadcast and when foreigners play. The Korean broadcast and the Koreans still use the Korean version.
I think it was just a practical measure IMO. They're expecting Korean viewers, so better for the Koreans to read and understand the Korean unit names. If they were going to broadcast it to international viewers, they'll probably use the English client as well.
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
I enjoy both, but when the players are forced to switch between games, it doesn't provide a nice viewing experience because they'll play horribly in both games if they can't focus their time on 1 game D:.
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
I cant believe this. Now players like Flash Bisu and Jaedong will suck at sc2, and most importantly BW. Seriously I wouldnt be surprised if all of their APM drops to 200 in BW with their format set like this...just wow...
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
The OP is not even sure if this is correct though.
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
People can like both games. The problem with this format is that it forces players to practice both at once, each of which is far too difficult for anyone to show a top performance in with just half their time devoted to practice. It will be subpar BW and subpar SC2. Nobody really wants that.
On May 10 2012 11:56 renzy wrote: I cant believe this. Now players like Flash Bisu and Jaedong will suck at sc2, and most importantly BW. Seriously I wouldnt be surprised if all of their APM drops to 200 in BW with their format set like this...just wow...
It's not their general mechanics that will suffer as much as the strategic aspect. Their builds will probably be less clean and precise as well.
WTB timemachine And reason why we can't all just get along Maybe, just maybe, TBLS, all the A class players will be able to handle BW themselves, give BW it's last big hurrah and let the practice partners and B-teamers try their hand out at sc2
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
seperately? I already do.
BUT fucking forcing players to play both games knocks down the quality of games IN BOTH GAMES.
I don't want to watch great players play mediocre matches especially in BW.
Honestly though I think this is a way for Kespa to encourage BW players to transition to SC2 and not just retire after or be left in the dust by BW players who just go 100% SC2. It's also a way to encourage the fans to transition as well. 2 birds with 1 stone. I honestly don't see a better implementation from Kespa's point of view. They want the BW pro's to transition, they want to have a BW -> SC2 fan base switch, and this is basically the only way to do it. If they allowed BW pro's to just play BW and have the ace match be BW, then BW fans would have even less incentive to watch SC2 because they will just see this as the last tournament. At least this way BW fans may stay to support the players and the teams and in term transition along with them.
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
because SC2 has shitty graphics that make it impossible to see what's going on for people who are used to watching BW.
You BW guys are so obsessed about graphics.
We aren't obsessed about graphics We're obsessed about being able to make out whats going on in a huge battle Being able to pick out the small details in the large engagements Being able to not watch a Michael Bay film, but watch a work of art, one of those classic movies I've never watched cause I'm so young Being able to understand the flow of the game
On May 10 2012 11:58 X10A wrote: WTB timemachine And reason why we can't all just get along Maybe, just maybe, TBLS, all the A class players will be able to handle BW themselves, give BW it's last big hurrah and let the practice partners and B-teamers try their hand out at sc2
That'd be fine, but the problem is that if you play one game in a given match, you need to play the other next match. It's a terrible format.
On May 10 2012 11:49 jidolboy wrote: Come on! Why did they have to use Korean client? All the name sounds retarded as well as feel unnatrual. I refuse to call Drone a "Worker Bug " LOL
...basically the thing I hate the most about this
fuck the korean version
tanks are tenku
templars are tempulah
probe is purobu
that is the way of starcraft
fuck localization
not like it's even necessary. everyone in korea knows what a fucking carrier is, we don't need that translated
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
Aaaaand whatever scant interest I had in the upcoming season of proleague just went out the window. Players splitting up their practice time is just going to make all the games look amateurish.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
because SC2 has shitty graphics that make it impossible to see what's going on for people who are used to watching BW.
You BW guys are so obsessed about graphics.
We aren't obsessed about graphics We're obsessed about being able to make out whats going on in a huge battle Being able to pick out the small details in the large engagements Being able to not watch a Michael Bay film, but watch a work of art, one of those classic movies I've never watched cause I'm so young Being able to understand the flow of the game
All of what you're looking for will come with experience. SC2's POV is from a higher altitude than BW's but it's still quite possible to notice all the little things and follow the flow of the game.
I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
The OP is not even sure if this is correct though.
The korean OP update and you can just get rid of the "same day" statement.
Also, the only interviews I was interested in:
삼성전자 송병구 선수 : 바뀐 방식이 스타2 에 연습 많이해서 힘들게 연습중인데, 스타2 만 잘해서 성적 잘 나올 것 같지는 않다. 두 게임 다 잘 해서 지난 시즌 못이룬 결승 가도록 하겠다. - KT 이영호 선수 : 스타2 에서 빠져서 기본 새벽 3-4시까지 한다. 예전 스타1 처음 하던 기분이 든다. 더 좋은 경기로 찾아 뵐 수 있도록 하겠다. Stork - Because of the change, I've been practicing hard for SC2, but I don't think being good at SC2 alone will produce good scores. I'll do well at both games and make it to the finals that we missed last season. Flash - I've gotten addicted to SC2 so on average, I practice until 3-4 AM. It's like when I first started playing SC1. I'll work hard to show you all better games [than you've been seeing].
On May 10 2012 12:02 OnFiRe888 wrote: I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
Moletrap, I've heard, is going to cast for OGN in the upcoming proleague.
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
People can like both games. The problem with this format is that it forces players to practice both at once, each of which is far too difficult for anyone to show a top performance in with just half their time devoted to practice. It will be subpar BW and subpar SC2. Nobody really wants that.
On top of that, people enjoy the games for slightly different reasons. BW fans love the mechanical intensity, and SC2 fans love the rapidly evolving metagame (at least in my case). In the mixed league, the BW will have worse mechanics, and the SC2 will be uninspired. There's a feel that BW players can get more mechanics out of SC2, but SC2 only rewards micro in relatively small engagements, excepting marines vs banelings, and BW players won't think about the game enough to know how to force that to happen.
BW mechanics PvP might be fun, though, because the unit counts stay low the whole game. BW lings doing sling/bling against sling/bling might also be fun, because that's something current SC2 players legit can't do. But beyond that...I'm pessimistic. BW players will be inclined to copy current SC2 players, rather than finding new builds or playstyles that let them use their mechanics more. I kind of hope to see Gumiho's "Drop ALL the things!" TvZ style done by a BW pro, though.
i honestly think having a thread in each forum for LRing will be the best route.
The thread will be shit in the end, but should try to not make it be complete shit by allowing one group of half-knowledged people to shit on the other half by themselves instead of having both groups argue to day's end.
It emphasises the overall importance of the team, because a player like Flash is forced to play StarCraft II one match out of two, essentially forcing his team to fill the Brood War spots with other players. So it guarantees a higher circulation of players.
On May 10 2012 11:56 m3rciless wrote: korean client ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I think it's best. I would hate for a player to lose via nuke landing on army and afterwards say they lost because they didn't understand the warning.
Ideally the Korean client would have Korean voices, campaign dialogue, descriptions, etc and only retain the English names of units, building, abilities, etc. The whole competitive scene benefits when everyone is speaking in a common language on these things and can therefor communicate strategy without confusion. The Korean localized unit names don't even make sense. Things like the Marauder being a Fire Bear are just idiotic.
On May 10 2012 12:02 OnFiRe888 wrote: I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
Moletrap, I've heard, is going to cast for OGN in the upcoming proleague.
This is actually going to be awesome. Can't believe all the hate on here saying how this should be all about BW and Starcraft 2 should be secondary, or that this is BW's last hurrah. BW was a huge game for a long time, and everyone pretty much knew this switch was inevitable, or at least they should have. Of course they are going to focus on Starcraft 2, its the future, investing in the future is 100x smarter then investing in what is now the past. Smart business decision and I'm glad to see the BW pros come over to SC2, and sure maybe the quality of games will be lower but I highly doubt they will suck, these are the best of the best battling it out and it will be epic
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
The OP is not even sure if this is correct though.
The korean OP update and you can just get rid of the "same day" statement.
Also, the only interviews I was interested in:
삼성전자 송병구 선수 : 바뀐 방식이 스타2 에 연습 많이해서 힘들게 연습중인데, 스타2 만 잘해서 성적 잘 나올 것 같지는 않다. 두 게임 다 잘 해서 지난 시즌 못이룬 결승 가도록 하겠다. - KT 이영호 선수 : 스타2 에서 빠져서 기본 새벽 3-4시까지 한다. 예전 스타1 처음 하던 기분이 든다. 더 좋은 경기로 찾아 뵐 수 있도록 하겠다. Stork - Because of the change, I've been practicing hard for SC2, but I don't think being good at SC2 alone will produce good scores. I'll do well at both games and make it to the finals that we missed last season. Flash - I've gotten addicted to SC2 so on average, I practice until 3-4 AM. It's like when I first started playing SC1. I'll work hard to show you all better games [than you've been seeing].
On May 10 2012 12:02 OnFiRe888 wrote: I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
Moletrap, I've heard, is going to cast for OGN in the upcoming proleague.
On May 10 2012 12:02 OnFiRe888 wrote: I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
Moletrap, I've heard, is going to cast for OGN in the upcoming proleague.
rumor...not fact.
. It is quite obvious that was his goal though when he ditched gom.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
STARS FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!
DAT CONFIDENCE! Hell yeah!
SOULKEY AND ZERO SC2 BONJWA TIME!!!
Edit: I just realized that SC2 TvP is Bio-oriented.
Light (Stars): Because of hybrid sc1/2 it will be a tough season, but if we will all try hard and achieve good results. There won't be any missing out on the post-season because of points.
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
The OP is not even sure if this is correct though.
The korean OP update and you can just get rid of the "same day" statement.
Also, the only interviews I was interested in:
삼성전자 송병구 선수 : 바뀐 방식이 스타2 에 연습 많이해서 힘들게 연습중인데, 스타2 만 잘해서 성적 잘 나올 것 같지는 않다. 두 게임 다 잘 해서 지난 시즌 못이룬 결승 가도록 하겠다. - KT 이영호 선수 : 스타2 에서 빠져서 기본 새벽 3-4시까지 한다. 예전 스타1 처음 하던 기분이 든다. 더 좋은 경기로 찾아 뵐 수 있도록 하겠다. Stork - Because of the change, I've been practicing hard for SC2, but I don't think being good at SC2 alone will produce good scores. I'll do well at both games and make it to the finals that we missed last season. Flash - I've gotten addicted to SC2 so on average, I practice until 3-4 AM. It's like when I first started playing SC1. I'll work hard to show you all better games [than you've been seeing].
Love his work ethics.
While I take a pro-gamer talking about how good the game that is also his job is with a grain of salt, I legitimately can believe Flash enjoys SC2, if only for the novelty of being a game people can beat him in right now.
On May 10 2012 12:02 OnFiRe888 wrote: I'm quite disappointed that there will be no English steam like what gom does. But i suppose that there with so much hype around seeing BW pros playing sc2, there has to be restreamers willing to restream with English commentary, am I right? So it might not be as bad as people think, but i guess only time will tell. I hope Kespa/ogn do bring in english commentary for season 2 (which is supposedly starting in oct).
Moletrap, I've heard, is going to cast for OGN in the upcoming proleague.
It's like they're TRYING to fail.
Then the next question is... is Korea too big to fail?
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
People can like both games. The problem with this format is that it forces players to practice both at once, each of which is far too difficult for anyone to show a top performance in with just half their time devoted to practice. It will be subpar BW and subpar SC2. Nobody really wants that.
On top of that, people enjoy the games for slightly different reasons. BW fans love the mechanical intensity, and SC2 fans love the rapidly evolving metagame (at least in my case). In the mixed league, the BW will have worse mechanics, and the SC2 will be uninspired. There's a feel that BW players can get more mechanics out of SC2, but SC2 only rewards micro in relatively small engagements, excepting marines vs banelings, and BW players won't think about the game enough to know how to force that to happen.
BW mechanics PvP might be fun, though, because the unit counts stay low the whole game. BW lings doing sling/bling against sling/bling might also be fun, because that's something current SC2 players legit can't do. But beyond that...I'm pessimistic. BW players will be inclined to copy current SC2 players, rather than finding new builds or playstyles that let them use their mechanics more. I kind of hope to see Gumiho's "Drop ALL the things!" TvZ style done by a BW pro, though.
What? Unit counts stay low the whole game? Maybe at E Ribbon...
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 11:49 rslee wrote: Update to the original korean LR:
They got rid of the "same day" (같은날) from
Players who competed in Starcraft 1 will play Starcraft 2 in the next game on the same day (???), and players who competed in Starcraft 2 will play Starcraft 1 in the next game on the same day (???).
So basically, if a player plays BW in his match, the next time he appears must be in an SC2 match and vice-versa.
Still unsure if players are allowed to play twice in one day though but I doubt it because they have a minimum of 6 players in the line up.
From the previous Proleague, a player could only play once in a match.
Well right now one "match" consists of two best of 3 matches. I was wondering if a player plays BW, can he play SC2 on the same day. Because according to the LR, even if a player is set to play the 3rd match of BW but it wasn't necessary because the first two were already won, it counts as them being sent out. So if Flash is listed to play set 3, and this sort of situation arose, he wouldn't be able to play until the ace match.
The OP is not even sure if this is correct though.
The korean OP update and you can just get rid of the "same day" statement.
Also, the only interviews I was interested in:
삼성전자 송병구 선수 : 바뀐 방식이 스타2 에 연습 많이해서 힘들게 연습중인데, 스타2 만 잘해서 성적 잘 나올 것 같지는 않다. 두 게임 다 잘 해서 지난 시즌 못이룬 결승 가도록 하겠다. - KT 이영호 선수 : 스타2 에서 빠져서 기본 새벽 3-4시까지 한다. 예전 스타1 처음 하던 기분이 든다. 더 좋은 경기로 찾아 뵐 수 있도록 하겠다. Stork - Because of the change, I've been practicing hard for SC2, but I don't think being good at SC2 alone will produce good scores. I'll do well at both games and make it to the finals that we missed last season. Flash - I've gotten addicted to SC2 so on average, I practice until 3-4 AM. It's like when I first started playing SC1. I'll work hard to show you all better games [than you've been seeing].
@Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
On May 10 2012 11:50 raf3776 wrote: I just dont understand why people cant.... enjoy both???
People can like both games. The problem with this format is that it forces players to practice both at once, each of which is far too difficult for anyone to show a top performance in with just half their time devoted to practice. It will be subpar BW and subpar SC2. Nobody really wants that.
On top of that, people enjoy the games for slightly different reasons. BW fans love the mechanical intensity, and SC2 fans love the rapidly evolving metagame (at least in my case). In the mixed league, the BW will have worse mechanics, and the SC2 will be uninspired. There's a feel that BW players can get more mechanics out of SC2, but SC2 only rewards micro in relatively small engagements, excepting marines vs banelings, and BW players won't think about the game enough to know how to force that to happen.
BW mechanics PvP might be fun, though, because the unit counts stay low the whole game. BW lings doing sling/bling against sling/bling might also be fun, because that's something current SC2 players legit can't do. But beyond that...I'm pessimistic. BW players will be inclined to copy current SC2 players, rather than finding new builds or playstyles that let them use their mechanics more. I kind of hope to see Gumiho's "Drop ALL the things!" TvZ style done by a BW pro, though.
What? Unit counts stay low the whole game? Maybe at E Ribbon...
Flash - I've gotten addicted to SC2 so on average, I practice until 3-4 AM. It's like when I first started playing SC1. I'll work hard to show you all better games [than you've been seeing].
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
Lost their sponsors? The map making team was never supported by ICCUP in anything but reputation, the same with ICCUPtv. (Which never even saw any of its own ad revenue).
I would say they are much better supported as ESV then they ever were under the ICCUP banner; Twitch.tv, TTeSports.
And while the Map making teams are very similar (still led by prodiG <3) They have picked up some very talented people in the last year, korean and foreigner alike.
I remember them saying they were sponsored by someone, but lost their sponsorship and chose to rename themselves. Ask Diamond if you really want to know, he posts here quite a lot.
I don't know how this got here, but just so the thread can move along.
ESV was originally formed under iCCup. After something like I think 13 months with 0 financial support (well they did buy one program one time), next to no promotional support, and a community that actively HATED SC2, we left and formed ESV.
I own ESV TV (and the ESV Mapmaking Team) and moving away from iCCup was the single greatest move I made for our company. No more red tape from people that don't understand broadcasting or SC2, and also now I actually own the company I run, where before iCCup was a majority owner despite offering us nothing or having any interaction with iCCup TV at all.
Hope that clears that up so the BW vs. SC2 debate can continue !
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
STARS FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!
DAT CONFIDENCE! Hell yeah!
SOULKEY AND ZERO SC2 BONJWA TIME!!!
Edit: I just realized that SC2 TvP is Bio-oriented.
Light (Stars): Because of hybrid sc1/2 it will be a tough season, but if we will all try hard and achieve good results. There won't be any missing out on the post-season because of points.
Light, you are our Terran savior now!
Woongjin Terrans thrive in SC2 apparently (MVP and Supernova ), so this'll be ezpz for the Stars!
On May 10 2012 11:30 Ribbon wrote: Ladder Antiga? Antiga is an enh map, especially the ladder version. But I sincerely hope they're disallowing horizontal spawns.
Ohana and Cloud Kingdom, good maps (made by ICCUP, in fact). Entombed is a Blizzard map, but it's one of their good ones, despite looking kinda ugly.
Noteworthy: No GSL-made maps in OGN proleague. Hmmmm....
They were not made by ICCUP dude...
Also, WTF!!!!!!! No Daybreak?!?!?!?!
They were, actually. Once they lost their sponsors, the iCCup mapmaking team renamed themselves to ESV.
Lost their sponsors? The map making team was never supported by ICCUP in anything but reputation, the same with ICCUPtv. (Which never even saw any of its own ad revenue).
I would say they are much better supported as ESV then they ever were under the ICCUP banner; Twitch.tv, TTeSports.
And while the Map making teams are very similar (still led by prodiG <3) They have picked up some very talented people in the last year, korean and foreigner alike.
I remember them saying they were sponsored by someone, but lost their sponsorship and chose to rename themselves. Ask Diamond if you really want to know, he posts here quite a lot.
I don't know how this got here, but just so the thread can move along.
ESV was originally formed under iCCup. After something like I think 13 months with 0 financial support (well they did buy one program one time), next to no promotional support, and a community that actively HATED SC2, we left and formed ESV.
I own ESV TV and moving away from iCCup was the single greatest move I made for our company. No more red tape from people that don't understand broadcasting, and also no more not owning a company I run without any support from iCCup.
Hope that clears that up so the BW vs. SC2 debate can continue !
On May 10 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote: @Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
Dude that article was....just reading it made me feel the chills.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Like STX, there are rumors that we are the best [at sc2] and they are true. We gave up our team workshop and prepared a lot, so there won't be any elimination based on points. We will win the championship through pure skill. Keep an eye on us.
STARS FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!
DAT CONFIDENCE! Hell yeah!
SOULKEY AND ZERO SC2 BONJWA TIME!!!
Edit: I just realized that SC2 TvP is Bio-oriented.
Light (Stars): Because of hybrid sc1/2 it will be a tough season, but if we will all try hard and achieve good results. There won't be any missing out on the post-season because of points.
Light, you are our Terran savior now!
Woongjin Terrans thrive in SC2 apparently (MVP and Supernova ), so this'll be ezpz for the Stars!
On May 10 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote: @Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
Dude that article was....just reading it made me feel the chills.
you know its been almost an year since that article was written...
This is messed up, but I guess it was always going to be messed up right from the beginning with the idea of having both games in the league...The only bright side being I don't have to wait to watch BW. I can't believe they chose SC2 as the ace match... Really disappointed.
I guess this is one of the last few chances I'll give SC2 a fair shot, if BW progamers can't make this game exciting to watch and make me feel like playing it, nothing will.
On May 10 2012 11:37 Grampz wrote: Every single BW / SC2 thread is the greatest shit storm since BP oil spill
Imagine what the LR-threads will be like. XD
It's been talked about before, I think the solution was to have separate LR threads to stem the BW vs SC2 stuff. So people who like whichever game better should stay on their side. Don't know if that's still a go or not.
On May 10 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote: @Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
Dude that article was....just reading it made me feel the chills.
you know its been almost an year since that article was written...
Even longer, but I know what you mean. Ver withheld it because of the scandal.
On May 10 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote: @Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
Dude that article was....just reading it made me feel the chills.
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
this is just so good to hear. So excited for this omfgggg.
On May 10 2012 12:12 jidolboy wrote: Let's be optimist guys. At least they didnt alternate into BW-SC2-BW-SC2-BW-SC2 sets. Some of us can just stop watching when set 3 ends <3
Not only that, it also solves the LR thread problems. Remember when MBC was still around()? 2 games run simultaneously and when one is done, everyone from the finished match's lr thread will go to the other. We can have two LR threads on different forums but BW games will be LRed in the LR thread in the BW section and after that, others will call it a day, while some will go to the SC2 section LR thread where the rest of the games are LRed. Results should be updated in both threads.
On May 10 2012 12:16 Hyde wrote: This is messed up, but I guess it was always going to be messed up right from the beginning with the idea of having both games in the league...The only bright side being I don't have to wait to watch BW. I can't believe they chose SC2 as the ace match... Really disappointed.
I guess this is one of the last few chances I'll give SC2 a fair shot, if BW progamers can't make this game exciting to watch and make me feel like playing it, nothing will.
On May 10 2012 11:37 Grampz wrote: Every single BW / SC2 thread is the greatest shit storm since BP oil spill
Imagine what the LR-threads will be like. XD
It's been talked about before, I think the solution was to have separate LR threads to stem the BW vs SC2 stuff. So people who like whichever game better should stay on their side. Don't know if that's still a go or not.
uhhh I thought since it was still BW teams all of it would be in the BW forums..
Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years.
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 12:11 ShadeR wrote: @Ribbon I think we actually take the mechanics as a given, with exceptions best macro flash barracks. What we actually love about BW is this.... God of the Battlefield
Dude that article was....just reading it made me feel the chills.
you know its been almost an year since that article was written...
Yes. I just reread it because I remembered how it good it was.
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
Actually, all the pros seem to be excited as well. I´ve never watched BW before even though i own this game since day 1 -.- I will tune in to as many games as possible! Unfortunately, this forced game-switching could mean a uncommon amount of cheeses in either bw or sc2 due to the lack of practice. (?)
"Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years."
Downplaying expectations, I wonder if he's been surfing in his meme thread
The map pool for SC2 is not the map pool that will create the most interesting games (and ladder versions are worse too). Guess they rather have worse games than use GSL maps^^. Hopefully they'll produce their own soon enough.
It's kind of obvious that the players say whatever their management wants them to say but I hope that Flash actually enjoys SC2 that much for his own sake.
Kind of hoped the Ace match was BW tbh.
Anyway, I'm kind of excited to see how this turns out since I love both games.
On May 10 2012 12:16 Hyde wrote: This is messed up, but I guess it was always going to be messed up right from the beginning with the idea of having both games in the league...The only bright side being I don't have to wait to watch BW. I can't believe they chose SC2 as the ace match... Really disappointed.
I guess this is one of the last few chances I'll give SC2 a fair shot, if BW progamers can't make this game exciting to watch and make me feel like playing it, nothing will.
On May 10 2012 11:39 Holgerius wrote:
On May 10 2012 11:37 Grampz wrote: Every single BW / SC2 thread is the greatest shit storm since BP oil spill
Imagine what the LR-threads will be like. XD
It's been talked about before, I think the solution was to have separate LR threads to stem the BW vs SC2 stuff. So people who like whichever game better should stay on their side. Don't know if that's still a go or not.
uhhh I thought since it was still BW teams all of it would be in the BW forums..
They're not really BW teams anymore though are they? They're BW teams transitioning to SC2 teams and this season is kind of the middle of that. I don't entirely agree with it all in one section simply because some people like to keep the opposite forum closed.
On May 10 2012 12:16 Hyde wrote: This is messed up, but I guess it was always going to be messed up right from the beginning with the idea of having both games in the league...The only bright side being I don't have to wait to watch BW. I can't believe they chose SC2 as the ace match... Really disappointed.
I guess this is one of the last few chances I'll give SC2 a fair shot, if BW progamers can't make this game exciting to watch and make me feel like playing it, nothing will.
Yeah, pretty much this... I'll watch and follow the SC2 games to see if the Elephant in the Room theory comes true, and to see how our beloved BW players adjust and adapt to an entirely new game. It should be interesting how TBLS approaches SC2 with their perspectives.
I will be so confused while I watch the SC2 portion go on though since I hardly know anything about it. D:
On May 10 2012 12:22 Valikyr wrote: The map pool for SC2 is not the map pool that will create the most interesting games (and ladder versions are worse too). Guess they rather have worse games than use GSL maps^^. Hopefully they'll produce their own soon enough.
It's kind of obvious that the players say whatever their management wants them to say but I hope that Flash actually enjoys SC2 that much for his own sake.
Kind of hoped the Ace match was BW tbh.
Anyway, I'm kind of excited to see how this turns out since I love both games.
The maps they are using are all technically GSL maps, with the exception of no space sharks, neutral depots and forced spawns (this is probably the most significant difference).
Having said that, let's just hope they change the map pool at the end of Round 1 so that it becomes the tournament version (once they've had more time to practice on the tournament version of maps and stuff)
Q: You said that you think this season is good for your team, could you elaborate? Jaehoon: We've been preparing for SC2 before other teams, and I think we try harder. Also, we're receiving some help as we practice. I can't tell you what it is, but it gives us an advantage.
Might be over the line here.. but this is why u guys have no sponsor.... your shitty proleague performance...
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): If I may speak as a representative for everyone, a lot of us know the current SC2 team head coaches. We don't practice with them officially or unofficially, but we receive their advice. Things like how to run the team at first, computer specs, etc are things I've talked about over a drink and thought about. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any practice with SC2 teams because of worries about strategies leaking.
SC2 fans, they have not been opened out to the other teams yet. You're going to have to wait awhile.
Q: You said that you think this season is good for your team, could you elaborate? Jaehoon: We've been preparing for SC2 before other teams, and I think we try harder. Also, we're receiving some help as we practice. I can't tell you what it is, but it gives us an advantage.
Might be over the line here.. but this is why u guys have no sponsor.... your shitty proleague performance...
I don't think it will take BW players a year to catch up simply because their main shortcomings (most likely), the strategies and late game understanding, are going to be completely nuked for everyone SC2 and BW alike when Heart of the Swarm is released probably at the end of this year or the start of 2013. Then we'll have a mostly even footing for everyone, though probably with plenty of balance problems that would need be hammered out.
On May 10 2012 12:16 Hyde wrote: This is messed up, but I guess it was always going to be messed up right from the beginning with the idea of having both games in the league...The only bright side being I don't have to wait to watch BW. I can't believe they chose SC2 as the ace match... Really disappointed.
Yep, watch the first half, close the stream and pray your team will be the one who sucks less at SC2. For once, I'd love to see some clean 3:0 wins :D
I mean, I don't think people are ever going to be happy that they're transitioning but at the very least this will be an interesting novelty, it also recognizes that the guys who are dominant at BW need time to transition so they'll still get play-time because it's valuable to the team, even if their Sc2 skill doesn't measure up yet.
On May 10 2012 12:22 Valikyr wrote: The map pool for SC2 is not the map pool that will create the most interesting games (and ladder versions are worse too). Guess they rather have worse games than use GSL maps^^. Hopefully they'll produce their own soon enough.
It's kind of obvious that the players say whatever their management wants them to say but I hope that Flash actually enjoys SC2 that much for his own sake.
Kind of hoped the Ace match was BW tbh.
Anyway, I'm kind of excited to see how this turns out since I love both games.
The maps they are using are all technically GSL maps, with the exception of no space sharks, neutral depots and forced spawns (this is probably the most significant difference).
Having said that, let's just hope they change the map pool at the end of Round 1 so that it becomes the tournament version (once they've had more time to practice on the tournament version of maps and stuff)
They're in the GSL map pool yes but they aren't GSL produced maps like Dual Sight, Daybreak, Atlantis Spaceship etc. But yes, hopefully they'll change to tournament versions after Round 1 or something like that. They can't use these versions through the entire season
On May 10 2012 12:20 GARO wrote: Urgh, just as everybody guessed + you always get SC2 as an ace match.
Well, we knew this was happening for sometime. Not like they can hear us or pay any attention when we ask them to keep the two separate in league play.
This season of PL is going to be absolutely dreadful to watch. I'll just cheer for all of them to pick up the game fast, so we don't have to go back to the dark ages.
On May 10 2012 12:22 Valikyr wrote: The map pool for SC2 is not the map pool that will create the most interesting games (and ladder versions are worse too). Guess they rather have worse games than use GSL maps^^. Hopefully they'll produce their own soon enough.
It's kind of obvious that the players say whatever their management wants them to say but I hope that Flash actually enjoys SC2 that much for his own sake.
Kind of hoped the Ace match was BW tbh.
Anyway, I'm kind of excited to see how this turns out since I love both games.
The maps they are using are all technically GSL maps, with the exception of no space sharks, neutral depots and forced spawns (this is probably the most significant difference).
Having said that, let's just hope they change the map pool at the end of Round 1 so that it becomes the tournament version (once they've had more time to practice on the tournament version of maps and stuff)
They're in the GSL map pool yes but they aren't GSL produced maps like Dual Sight, Daybreak, Atlantis Spaceship etc. But yes, hopefully they'll change to tournament versions after Round 1 or something like that. They can't use these versions through the entire season
Most GSL-produced maps were made by Korean community members, and aside from Daybreak and Tal'Darim Altar, I've got to be honest and say most of their other maps aren't really as good as some of the ones made by ESV.
I'm wondering if the crowd sits for the BW matches and then leaves during the sc2 matches. I've been hearing rumors amongst my friends that if they attend they wouldn't be interested in the sc2 portions. Whether they and others in mass make good on that, I don't know.
BW newbie here. I don't know where to find the proleague VODs. Will the e-sports TV on youtube post the VOD of the new season? Or are there other ways to watch the tournament?
Worst part is that it hurts OSL too. Starting on the 20th, all OSL players are gonna be playing televised sc2... ya you can guess the best Brood War players aren't gonna get to ignore SC2 until OSL is done T.T
On May 10 2012 12:30 sCCrooked wrote: I'm wondering if the crowd sits for the BW matches and then leaves during the sc2 matches. I've been hearing rumors amongst my friends that if they attend they wouldn't be interested in the sc2 portions. Whether they and others in mass make good on that, I don't know.
Well we will see when this season begins. If that happens consistently throughout the season, though, that will be a telling sign.
Q: You changed your race for SC2, why? Clam: Before I started I was thinking about which race to play, and I thought it would be more fun if I played a different race. I also thought that it would be interesting for viewers, so I switched.
Oh you Clam, now we wont have a brain zerg making mass queens work
Let me see if anyone here disagrees with this... but I am convinced with this format there is absolutely no reason to practice BW.
With Bo3 Bo3 ace match, one point is decided by BW two by SC2. Meaning a team could win every single game never winning a single BW match. If it was a straight Bo7 then it would place more weight on the BW games, because you could make up a loss on the SC2 side by dominating the BW games.
The rule about the switching off between the two games disfavors BW for the same reason. If you were allowed to have specialized BW players you could be more confident that you would win the BW Bo3, but in this case...given the choice between your players practicing BW and SC2, you are going to improve your odds by having everyone practice SC2 all the time. If you have a Bonjwa you can get two games out of him in SC2.
Conclusion: The BW competition will suffer even more than if the players split their time half and half with this format, because the setup provides little incentive to be the better BW team. + Show Spoiler +
....and yet it will still be more fun to watch the broodwar games.
My only hope is that the players inherent love of BW will overcome their desire to win....the comments to the press unfortunately indicate otherwise...not that any comments to the press ever really mean anything...ever.
On May 10 2012 12:25 cam connor wrote: At least we'll have Fantasy figuring out how to make mech work in tvp in sc2 Bio tvp feels so wrong ;;
Fantasy is now playing zerg haha. Which saves your game to become a TvT fest I guess.
wow my day got even worse
Isn't that a rumor?
And I don't mean one of those fomos article " rumors " that are actually leaked news by kespa but an actual rumor with no evidence at all that someone on TL made up.
On May 10 2012 12:32 sheaRZerg wrote: Let me see if anyone here disagrees with this... but I am convinced with this format there is absolutely no reason to practice BW.
With Bo3 Bo3 ace match, one point is decided by BW two by SC2. Meaning a team could win every single game never winning a single BW match. If it was a straight Bo7 then it would place more weight on the BW games, because you could make up a loss on the SC2 side by dominating the BW games.
The rule about the switching off between the two games disfavors BW for the same reason. If you were allowed to have specialized BW players you could be more confident that you would win the BW Bo3, but in this case...given the choice between your players practicing BW and SC2, you are going to improve your odds by having everyone practice SC2 all the time. If you have a Bonjwa you can get two games out of him in SC2.
Conclusion: The BW competition will suffer even more than if the players split their time half and half with this format, because the setup provides little incentive to be the better BW team. + Show Spoiler +
....and yet it will still be more fun to watch the broodwar games.
My only hope is that the players inherent love of BW will overcome their desire to win....the comments to the press unfortunately indicate otherwise...not that any comments to the press ever really mean anything...ever.
I believe that Kespa's intent is to get the players to focus on SC2, thus putting more weight on SC2 matches as you said. Its a sad day for all.
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Light suffered a lot at the hands of Protoss in SC1, so he tried Protoss at first, but after three days of excruciating practice, he changed back to Terran. No player in particular has switched races. A Zerg player has said he'd try out Terran, but it turned out he needed a lot of practice.
On May 10 2012 12:22 Valikyr wrote: The map pool for SC2 is not the map pool that will create the most interesting games (and ladder versions are worse too). Guess they rather have worse games than use GSL maps^^. Hopefully they'll produce their own soon enough.
It's kind of obvious that the players say whatever their management wants them to say but I hope that Flash actually enjoys SC2 that much for his own sake.
Kind of hoped the Ace match was BW tbh.
Anyway, I'm kind of excited to see how this turns out since I love both games.
The maps they are using are all technically GSL maps, with the exception of no space sharks, neutral depots and forced spawns (this is probably the most significant difference).
Having said that, let's just hope they change the map pool at the end of Round 1 so that it becomes the tournament version (once they've had more time to practice on the tournament version of maps and stuff)
They're in the GSL map pool yes but they aren't GSL produced maps like Dual Sight, Daybreak, Atlantis Spaceship etc. But yes, hopefully they'll change to tournament versions after Round 1 or something like that. They can't use these versions through the entire season
Most GSL-produced maps were made by Korean community members, and aside from Daybreak and Tal'Darim Altar, I've got to be honest and say most of their other maps aren't really as good as some of the ones made by ESV.
Well considering they're forcing it on the players. I can see why some people might want to protest.
I most certainly do not like this format and the results are going to be all over the place. They took one of the most prestigious leagues and turned it into a circus.
I much rather it be a complete switch. Jump with both feet in. Don't tippy toe.
Well no matter how it turns out At least our bw heroes will still be competing Guess we gotta stay as optimistic as possible Hopefully there will now be more than one sc2 player worth watching
Wow im shocked they joined it like this. I thought they would have a seperate league, just played by the players. Like teams would play a 7 games series of broodwar, followed by SC2 and have a seperate ladder, with maybe a combined scoring for playoff placement.
Pretty crazy, a little nervous that this will just end up being bad for both games
I'll be shocked if the SC2 games won't look like early GSL matches where T & P players do a ton of 1/2 base builds because comfort level to play beyond that isn't there yet in terms of feel and game sense
I'm positive that all the coaches, players, organizers, casters, and whoever else involved all worked extra hard to make the upcoming season a successful transition period. Looking forward to the season, and may Khan take the title!
On May 10 2012 12:34 SarcasmMonster wrote: Wouldn't it be funny if Flash turned out to be terrible at SC2?
Considering how stubborn Flash is? I think he will improve quite fast especially from his modest answers and how much time he's actually putting in. If there is a player who can catch-up. It's him.
Park Yong Woon (T1): Looking at the stats, and the fact that SC2 is the latter half of the series and the Ace match, we're looking at a 6 : 3 ratio of SC2 to SC1.
the fuck. SKT is going to suck this season. god damnit
On May 10 2012 12:40 udgnim wrote: SC2 should not be used for ace match
I'll be shocked if the SC2 games won't look like early GSL matches where T & P players do a ton of 1/2 base builds because comfort level to play beyond that isn't there yet in terms of feel and game sense
That's the feeling I'm getting too. There will probably be only a handful of games worth watching, but I'm totally expecting the mash and bash shit like you.
i like how bw pros can find sc2 funny but some tl bw hardcore posters dont i'm all for bw but everyone knew this was inevitable, i dont get why some people is still crying (time to adjust or leave). i dont think some people even tried to enjoy the game because bw was THE game, well its time to embrace sc2 and see if it can turn out as fun as bw (or at least close to it). GO KHAN!
Q: You said that you think this season is good for your team, could you elaborate? Jaehoon: We've been preparing for SC2 before other teams, and I think we try harder. Also, we're receiving some help as we practice. I can't tell you what it is, but it gives us an advantage.
Might be over the line here.. but this is why u guys have no sponsor.... your shitty proleague performance...
I can't help but feel betrayed. Say what you will about what it means. But the majority of us wholeheartedly supported the players, week after week, always believing in them. Its not entirely their faults, but this whole situation, especially with Team 8 makes me incredibly bitter. Irrational?, so be it -_-. Hope of BW...right...
Id bet on that "advantage" being contacting Coach Lee, HyuN and TSL for help...(ex-MBC).
It's better just to cleanly let BW die. Convincing BW fans to switch isn't off to a good start...with all the rage induced. Im still attached to the players and the teams. As long as its contained within the 8 teams, Ill watch most of it. Not happy with the format, but w/e it allows me to sleep earlier. Alternating sets would have been stupid, but if they had a BW ace match, Id sit through the whole thing :/, this way? I might just sleep after set 3...lol.
At least Ace isn't disbanding, I hope they announce the rosters soon :/ curious about who's leaving if any...
On May 10 2012 12:26 Bear4188 wrote: I don't think it will take BW players a year to catch up simply because their main shortcomings (most likely), the strategies and late game understanding, are going to be completely nuked for everyone SC2 and BW alike when Heart of the Swarm is released probably at the end of this year or the start of 2013. Then we'll have a mostly even footing for everyone, though probably with plenty of balance problems that would need be hammered out.
Yes and No.
HotS will disrupt the playing field, but that means there will be more differences between SC2 and BW.
On May 10 2012 12:40 udgnim wrote: SC2 should not be used for ace match
I'll be shocked if the SC2 games won't look like early GSL matches where T & P players do a ton of 1/2 base builds because comfort level to play beyond that isn't there yet in terms of feel and game sense
That's the feeling I'm getting too. There will probably be only a handful of games worth watching, but I'm totally expecting the mash and bash shit like you.
If that's the case, then there's always the GSL for high level games.
On May 10 2012 12:42 Holgerius wrote: I'm scared that the quality of the games, in both BW and SC2, will be quite low. All of a sudden they are forced to play two games professionally.
I think it's fair to say that the pinnacle of BW skill has been reached, and it will only go downhill from here.
actually the pinnacle was two years ago. i cant see the players practicing as they did in the past with SC2 hitting the corner and uncertainty behind it.
Light: I think Zerg looks the weakest, and Terran is a race that looks strong when played well. However, I haven't reached that level yet, and TvP is a bit hard.
On May 10 2012 12:42 Holgerius wrote: I'm scared that the quality of the games, in both BW and SC2, will be quite low. All of a sudden they are forced to play two games professionally.
I think it's fair to say that the pinnacle of BW skill has been reached, and it will only go downhill from here.
actually the pinnacle was two years ago. i cant see the players practicing as they did in the past with SC2 hitting the corner and uncertainty behind it.
Yeah the pinnacle was when Bisu/Jaedong/Stork/Flash first reached the scene and cemented themselves as the top 4. And then it all went downhill after the the matchfixing. Everyone seems to lost all motivation to get ahead of the competition.
Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
On May 10 2012 12:26 Bear4188 wrote: I don't think it will take BW players a year to catch up simply because their main shortcomings (most likely), the strategies and late game understanding, are going to be completely nuked for everyone SC2 and BW alike when Heart of the Swarm is released probably at the end of this year or the start of 2013. Then we'll have a mostly even footing for everyone, though probably with plenty of balance problems that would need be hammered out.
Yes and No.
HotS will disrupt the playing field, but that means there will be more differences between SC2 and BW.
It means there will be a more equal playing field between all players. It will change a lot of things. It's weird that they're going to start off on WoL. I would have just waited until HotS.
On May 10 2012 12:40 udgnim wrote: SC2 should not be used for ace match
I'll be shocked if the SC2 games won't look like early GSL matches where T & P players do a ton of 1/2 base builds because comfort level to play beyond that isn't there yet in terms of feel and game sense
That's the feeling I'm getting too. There will probably be only a handful of games worth watching, but I'm totally expecting the mash and bash shit like you.
If that's the case, then there's always the GSL for high level games.
On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
its true at least with SC2 we'll have other teams do well, hell CJ with SC2 might actually break their curse.
On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
Yeah, but they just said they're practicing between two different games man. The format is still a pain in the ass. From a pure competitive standpoint; it's ugly and the results just won't matter.
The only part of the comments I found amusing were that so many of them found Z imbalanced and weak. Something everyone else has been saying for a long time. Good to see the masses of pros and coaches think so too. Hope HotS fixes these issues. So far the beta map hasn't felt too promising to me. The "siege" units are basically just npc-spawning units.
On May 10 2012 12:56 sCCrooked wrote: The only part of the comments I found amusing were that so many of them found Z imbalanced and weak. Something everyone else has been saying for a long time. Good to see the masses of pros and coaches think so too. Hope HotS fixes these issues. So far the beta map hasn't felt too promising to me. The "siege" units are basically just npc-spawning units.
Zerg really isn't that weak though. Early scouting? Fine. It's the role reversal of PvZ in bw where your timing was everything and you had to react to whatever the zerg was doing. ._.
It's too early for them to be passing on judgement on the balance design of SC2.
On May 10 2012 12:56 sCCrooked wrote: The only part of the comments I found amusing were that so many of them found Z imbalanced and weak. Something everyone else has been saying for a long time. Good to see the masses of pros and coaches think so too. Hope HotS fixes these issues. So far the beta map hasn't felt too promising to me. The "siege" units are basically just npc-spawning units.
what do u mean by beta map?
It's a custom map that implements the units that have already been removed from the alpha.
On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
its true at least with SC2 we'll have other teams do well, hell CJ with SC2 might actually break their curse.
EVeryone saying Protoss is strong and Zerg is shit. People who have played this game for <month knows what Blizzard apparently doesn't? :D??? In all seriousness, everybody please stick to your races TT_TT
fan recruitment is an AMAZING idea.... go team 8!!! .... they have no sponsor.... they're the real underdogs.... and they have an emo jaedong...
as for this format... it seems really do or die as everyone has said... if these pros fail to produce interesting SC2 games then this all fails....
i think that everyone's skill in bw is going to still be okay for my personal enjoyment so i won't care if they don't practice it as much.... it will just either be all mind games or all standard macro games with no new builds....
i just hope that i will come to enjoy SC2 as much as bw (that's gonna be hard...) right now... all i see are giant balls of armies bashing each other over and over again....
On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
Yeah, but they just said they're practicing between two different games man. The format is still a pain in the ass. From a pure competitive standpoint; it's ugly and the results just won't matter.
Would have been more fun if it were just SC2.
I think if KESPA was given the choice, they'd just want SC2, but they NEED the Brood War fans in Korea. This season is going to be KESPA trying to their hardest to get the Brood War fans to come and see the BW games, cross their fingers and hope when SC2 comes that they'll be into it. If it was only SC2, then there is a huge possibility that a lot of the fans would have went, 'No Brood War? Fuck this. I don't want to watch this new game.' This way, they get to see Brood War at the start and hopefully stick around, watch SC2 and get more into it as the season goes along.
Best case scenario: Fans stay for both BW and SC2, support both and by the end of the season, a lot of the BW fans are now both BW/SC2 fans.
Worst case scenario: Fans watch BW, leave, and the SC2 half of the league is 8 white people watching and a Bisu fangirl.
someone probably should start a thread introducing the proteams to sc2 fans since its starting in like 11 days. We need the sc2 fans to be just as interested.
On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Wow, May 19th is the GSL finals and May 20th is the 11 Hour Super Mega Opening Day Elephant Incoming Special. Going to be huge.
I know a lot of people hate SC2, but this is gonna make this season incredibly interesting. For the past three fucking years it's been KT and SKT1 atop of the ladder and playing in the finals, but with SC2 thrown in, all the teams are now at even playing grounds. With ACE saying they're good at SC2, they might actually get a postseason for once.
Yeah, but they just said they're practicing between two different games man. The format is still a pain in the ass. From a pure competitive standpoint; it's ugly and the results just won't matter.
Would have been more fun if it were just SC2.
I think if KESPA was given the choice, they'd just want SC2, but they NEED the Brood War fans in Korea. This season is going to be KESPA trying to their hardest to get the Brood War fans to come and see the BW games, cross their fingers and hope when SC2 comes that they'll be into it. If it was only SC2, then there is a huge possibility that a lot of the fans would have went, 'No Brood War? Fuck this. I don't want to watch this new game.' This way, they get to see Brood War at the start and hopefully stick around, watch SC2 and get more into it as the season goes along.
Best case scenario: Fans stay for both BW and SC2, support both and by the end of the season, a lot of the BW fans are now both BW/SC2 fans.
Worst case scenario: Fans watch BW, leave, and the SC2 half of the league is 8 white people watching and a Bisu fangirl.
Really love that Flash quote about his dedication and expectations. He downplays how good he will be, but still shows just how determined and ambitious he is. I also like that he doesn't think he could get to his SC1 skill without at least 2-3 years of practice, longer than SC2 has even been out really. This could really be taken as a second statement about SC2 for those that still won't give it a chance... remember, BW was once this young and undeveloped as well. Imagine if no one had given it a chance back then.
I'm definitely disappointed with the amount of contempt and vitriol I've seen in this thread. There are plenty of us who truly do enjoy watching both games, and the elitism and ingroup vs outgroup mentality that seems quite accepted throughout this thread is really unnecessary and poorly representative of the very mature community that really drew me into TL in the first place years ago.
[QUOTE]On May 10 2012 13:08 Fionn wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 12:56 StarStruck wrote: [QUOTE]On May 10 2012 12:53 Fionn wrote: Worst case scenario: Fans watch BW, leave, and the SC2 half of the league is 8 white people watching and a Bisu fangirl.[/QUOTE]
Lee Jae Gyun (Stars): Light suffered a lot at the hands of Protoss in SC1, so he tried Protoss at first, but after three days of excruciating practice, he changed back to Terran. No player in particular has switched races. A Zerg player has said he'd try out Terran, but it turned out he needed a lot of practice.
Oh how I laughed
Apparently, this is pretty common, people race-switching for like two hours and switching back.
Q: You said that you think this season is good for your team, could you elaborate? Jaehoon: We've been preparing for SC2 before other teams, and I think we try harder. Also, we're receiving some help as we practice. I can't tell you what it is, but it gives us an advantage.
Might be over the line here.. but this is why u guys have no sponsor.... your shitty proleague performance...
I can't help but feel betrayed. Say what you will about what it means. But the majority of us wholeheartedly supported the players, week after week, always believing in them. Its not entirely their faults, but this whole situation, especially with Team 8 makes me incredibly bitter. Irrational?, so be it -_-. Hope of BW...right...
Id bet on that "advantage" being contacting Coach Lee, HyuN and TSL for help...(ex-MBC).
If your secret weapon is Hyun, who's 0-3, you're probably in trouble.
On May 10 2012 12:26 Bear4188 wrote: I don't think it will take BW players a year to catch up simply because their main shortcomings (most likely), the strategies and late game understanding, are going to be completely nuked for everyone SC2 and BW alike when Heart of the Swarm is released probably at the end of this year or the start of 2013. Then we'll have a mostly even footing for everyone, though probably with plenty of balance problems that would need be hammered out.
Yes and No.
HotS will disrupt the playing field, but that means there will be more differences between SC2 and BW.
HotS is also (somewhat) mechanically harder due to more interesting units like the Oracle, according to people who've played it. That maybe helps the BW players?
On May 10 2012 12:56 sCCrooked wrote: The only part of the comments I found amusing were that so many of them found Z imbalanced and weak. Something everyone else has been saying for a long time. Good to see the masses of pros and coaches think so too. Hope HotS fixes these issues. So far the beta map hasn't felt too promising to me. The "siege" units are basically just npc-spawning units.
Zerg is getting buffed literally tomorrow. The Oracle is a really good unit, and the Viper's pretty neat, I guess, 'cause it's like a defiler?
On May 10 2012 13:05 bokchoi wrote: EVeryone saying Protoss is strong and Zerg is shit. People who have played this game for <month knows what Blizzard apparently doesn't? :D??? In all seriousness, everybody please stick to your races TT_TT
Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
On May 10 2012 13:08 Diamond wrote: The more I think about it, I can't help but feel this will be return of the "SNARRFFFFF!!!!" moments.
Man, if Flash does anything less then perfectly, the reactions will be hilarious. But yes, we're looking January 2011 Code A level play here.
Probably the most interesting thing is if and when they start playing current SC2 progamers. Perhaps by allowing them to participate in GSL prelims. It would be a funny sight to see TBLS makikng their way up through Code B/A.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
On May 10 2012 13:24 baubo wrote: Probably the most interesting thing is if and when they start playing current SC2 progamers. Perhaps by allowing them to participate in GSL prelims. It would be a funny sight to see TBLS makikng their way up through Code B/A.
That would probably be the worst thing to happen. If Flash loses to some Code B scrub it'll turn off all the BW elitists and SC2 viewership will go down. FXOBoss had a very interesting blog post in which he said the bubble for SC2 has already ended, so it's a very critical time for SC2. Best case scenario would be for TBLS to do extremely well, but no one player dominates.
Possibility 1. The head coach of TSL is Lee Woon-Jae, who was the coach for MBCGame (You guys will recognize him if you watched Hyungjoon Becomes a Progamer). I think it is highly likely that TSL is helping Team 8 practice for SC2.
Possibility 2. Ju Hoon was the head coach for SKT1 during Boxer's days. Since Boxer is the owner of SlayerS, his team is helping with practice.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
On May 10 2012 13:24 baubo wrote: Probably the most interesting thing is if and when they start playing current SC2 progamers. Perhaps by allowing them to participate in GSL prelims. It would be a funny sight to see TBLS makikng their way up through Code B/A.
That would probably be the worst thing to happen. If Flash loses to some Code B scrub it'll turn off all the BW elitists and SC2 viewership will go down. FXOBoss had a very interesting blog post in which he said the bubble for SC2 has already ended, so it's a very critical time for SC2. Best case scenario would be for TBLS to do extremely well, but no one player dominates.
It's very doubtful any of the TBLS loses to some random SC2 progamer(not from one of current BW clubhouses). That said, as long as the BW pros do very well as a group, I don't think it really matters. The ranking may not be the same as they are now, but I think there's overall so much talent it doesn't matter. Perhaps Bisu falters a bit and Best does better. Perhaps Jangbi go back loser king but Shine starts trolling Code S. In the end, there will certainly be a huge influx of talent and they will do well as a group.
Edit: But yes, the most recognizable players not playing well probably would hurt the scene somewhat. But I think most of them will. I can't imagine they won't given how smart they are at RTS.
On May 10 2012 13:24 baubo wrote: Probably the most interesting thing is if and when they start playing current SC2 progamers. Perhaps by allowing them to participate in GSL prelims. It would be a funny sight to see TBLS makikng their way up through Code B/A.
That would probably be the worst thing to happen. If Flash loses to some Code B scrub it'll turn off all the BW elitists and SC2 viewership will go down. FXOBoss had a very interesting blog post in which he said the bubble for SC2 has already ended, so it's a very critical time for SC2. Best case scenario would be for TBLS to do extremely well, but no one player dominates.
It's very doubtful any of the TBLS loses to some random SC2 progamer(not from one of current BW clubhouses).
I don't know, Bisu loses to random progamers in qualifiers already.
Ribbon wrote:Isn't he only mid-masters? That's not actually good.
I believe the actual statement was he reached masters having never learned the T units. In other words just plain old decisions and macro was superior enough to reach that. Not good I know, but still impressive to be 3 days old in the game and without ever knowing your units or tech paths you reach something a lot of casuals struggle to ever reach.
Ribbon wrote:Zerg is getting buffed literally tomorrow. The Oracle is a really good unit, and the Viper's pretty neat, I guess, 'cause it's like a defiler?
I know I know, I was just amused by the progamers and coaches basically confirming what Zerg players have been complaining about pretty much since release of WoL.
I doubt they are confirming anything so much as parroting what they've read and heard about their races in SC2. None of them are high enough up (so far as we know) to really be a good source of balance information, lol.
For some reason, I did not really realize how seriously bw progamers were taking the transition before this post... But it's great! Cannot wait to see those guys compete!
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
On May 10 2012 13:51 DoubleDare wrote: FLASH PLAYING PROTOSS! If that happens I might die of happiness. Then protoss will have bisu AND flash? GG no re
flash is playing terran though, hes only just thinking about switching...
poor quality of games incoming, i mean, if the games are anything like the ODT ones, to me, they are really not worth watching :/, anyway i have the entire MSL collection of moktira so, i have bw for a while, hoping for an osl collection tho
I just think everyone should be prepared for that the SC2 games in PL will be very bad in the beginning :p. No amount of talent will learn the game in this short amount of time. I'm sure they'll catch up soon enough though. Might be entertaining games, but not high level.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
True, but I never expected WoL to be good out of the box, and I don't expect HotS to be good out of the box either. I treat SC2 as an ongoing project rather than as the next big OMG game, and it's pretty fun just to watch in that regard.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
Blizzard is famous for its slowness, so I don't think anyone is surprised these features would take them this long to implement.
On May 10 2012 13:40 IMNasty wrote: with the announced dates it's all but confirmed that MLG anaheim will host a proleague match
what?
from all the hints dropped by the MLG people on twitter (MLG people in korea right now, MLG Adam asking for lists of famous BW players, general vague hype etc.) and the impending MLG/OGN partnership, you can put 2 and 2 together and realize that BW pros aren't gonna just take a weekend off during proleague season to go overseas. adam was probably just trying to get the best proleague match-up for the weekend when they were finalizing the PL schedule.
btw MLG announced there's an announcement coming Friday.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
The oracle is a great unit (watch SotG, even "Artosis" says so and he plays Protoss).
Seeing the new Terran and Zerg units though, it seems they're trying too hard not to be BW.
I don't like Battle Hellion since it's just a slow a-move unit. Sure it can transform but the decisions regarding it probably aren't too hard (basically Battle Hellion is for anything the regular Hellion can't kite or to kill workers faster if they're grouped together). The BH will fix TvP though but what I think is more important in the expansion is making it less one big deathball and one engagement. If you watch BW vs SC2, BW is a lot more entertaining.
I'm still bummed that they removed the Carrier and replace it with the Tempest (also an a-move unit).
*Liquid Tyler said it right (in state of the game) that if they returned the BW carrier to SC2, it would have been a different story for the Carrier.
The Viper is not bad actually.
Swarm Host is okay (if the Swarm Host had different units it could produce with maybe different abilities, it could have a lot of potential).
I think the deathball syndrome has to be fixed with something drastic like 6m1hy (which somewhat works) or a rehaul of a lot of units.
I'm not sure adding a few new units (like the Oracle and the Viper) is enough to change it "especially" if they add more deathball units in return (like the Tempest and Battle Hellion).
So... players must practice both games... and we've seen what that's like, especially in the ODT.
Goodbye, game quality! The SC2 fans won't like it and the BW fans will hate it. What's the point?
This is seriously a stupider decision than just dropping BW entirely. You're already infuriating that fanbase, and you're not gaining anything from it. *shakes head*
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
While you're not wrong, Blizzard aren't the only company like that. Riot is very similar with League of Legends, I'd chalk it down more to being one of the best biggest games in the world than complete incompetence.
On May 10 2012 13:23 Ribbon wrote: Protoss are smashing everyone in the GSL at the moment. Blizz says it's on Terran to use mid-game map control to secure a late game advantage. Zerg, as I mentioned, will be stronger tomorrow, but most likely the reason BW players don't like it is because it's a reactive race and they don't know how to react yet. .
This is everything wrong with SC2.... Blizzard knows better than the progamers? And their 50% in all matchups spiel... ughhh....
FWIW, Day9 is in full agreement with Blizzard on this issue. And if they're wrong, Blizzard has shown they can be counted on to do the smart thing as a last resort. (The queen energy buff was basically vetoed by State of the Game, and Maka famously got Void Rays nerfed)
I'd trust Blizzard over Idra
What has blizzard done that was smart?
Mostly reversing their dumb decisions. HotS has multiplayer replay viewing (finally), global play, clan support, unranked matchmaking, and resume from replays, giving Bnet everything people have wanted save LAN (with the resume from replay being a fig leaf). You can say that all should have been in WoL, and I won't dispute that, but better late than never. ("Better late than never" is probably the best attitude to have with Blizzard, frankly).
They fixed PvP to stop it being 4gate vs 4gate every single game.
We got chat channels, at long last. Stalemate detection was a good idea that no one's ever complained about.
The stated goal of HotS is to prevent the deathball syndrome, by making interesting units that are useless in a fight, meaning fewer fighting units, which rewards micro more. I think that's a laudable goal.
The oracle is a great unit.
I mean, yes, ideally this would all be there at launch, but we do get it eventually. I don't think anyone disputes that SC2 now is a substantial improvement over SC2 in 2010.
I think you are confusing the "smart" thing with the "bare minimum to make a functional game" thing. If you ask me what 2+2 is, and I answer "4" after 6 months, it doesn't make me smart, it makes me slightly less stupid than if it took me a year to answer.
Well, actually, it's more evil than dumb.
When I log into SC2, I enter my bnet info. I then get a screen with a single button, "Ribbon" (or, "Cascade" now, since I changed my name). I click the Ribbon button to sign in to the game. It's a completely pointless screen in WoL. That screen is pretty clearly there so that, in HotS, I can select which server I want to play on. But that functionality is being saved for HotS.
BW did that too, actually, with the new units having been made during the dev of vanilla SC.
Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
It just means that they can't play in the second half of the matches if they are registered to play in the first I think? even if they don't get to play.
On May 10 2012 14:11 Kanil wrote: Players must alternate?
So... players must practice both games... and we've seen what that's like, especially in the ODT.
Goodbye, game quality! The SC2 fans won't like it and the BW fans will hate it. What's the point?
This is seriously a stupider decision than just dropping BW entirely. You're already infuriating that fanbase, and you're not gaining anything from it. *shakes head*
What does the ODT have to do with SC2 or practicing two games? Explain for someone who hasn't followed BW for a year or two.
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
It just means that they can't play in the second half of the matches if they are registered to play in the first I think? even if they don't get to play.
I believe it counts as Best and Jaedong both having played their SC2 match, so their next match must be in BW.
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
It just means that they can't play in the second half of the matches if they are registered to play in the first I think? even if they don't get to play.
i think it means that best will have to play sc2 the next time he plays?
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
It just means that they can't play in the second half of the matches if they are registered to play in the first I think? even if they don't get to play.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess that means coaches will avoid sending their strongest players in sets 3 or 6 because of the chance of them not even getting to play.
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
I would guess that it means Best and Jaedong can't play for the SC2 portion of the match, but they don't get a win/loss from it.
Also, are they seriously just using ladder maps? It seems like they could've just asked, I don't know, anybody, who is currently involved in SC2 whether that was a good idea or not and gotten a unanimous "No."
On May 10 2012 14:11 Kanil wrote: Players must alternate?
So... players must practice both games... and we've seen what that's like, especially in the ODT.
Goodbye, game quality! The SC2 fans won't like it and the BW fans will hate it. What's the point?
This is seriously a stupider decision than just dropping BW entirely. You're already infuriating that fanbase, and you're not gaining anything from it. *shakes head*
What does the ODT have to do with SC2 or practicing two games? Explain for someone who hasn't followed BW for a year or two.
ODT games were awful, most likely because players were splitting training time between the 2 games.
FBH is going to dominate I think, I have not heard of any current BW player being better than him in SC2. I've also seen him play several games against current SC2 pros but I really don't remember how the games went. T.T
You're right, I just noticed that. Admittedly, all of the ones they chose are in the current GSL map pool, but I'm disappointed they left out Daybreak.
This is interesting how it seems the BW players are going through the meta-game developments that most of the world has evolved beyond.
For example, being forced to learn the hard way that the ladder maps are not a good idea for tournaments (although these aren't nearly as bad as what the GSL started on). Another example being that they mostly seem to think Zerg is weak and their Zergs are having a hard time.
While Zerg has really been the weakest race since the beginning, we've (Zerg players) come a long way. I'd say that really only PvZ is touched with a bit of imbalance. I don't think anyone could really seriously say that TvZ is imbalanced anymore (and with the Z buffs coming tomorrow, Z grows even stronger). Maybe Zergs are having a hard time simply because of the map selection. Antiga and Entombed particularly are not that good for Zerg.
All of those sc2 maps are in the current season of the GSL. If they force cross spawns and remove the gold in Antiga (the other 3 maps don't have gold), I think the map pool is pretty decent.
On May 10 2012 14:21 Hall0wed wrote: Should be interesting to say the least.
FBH is going to dominate I think, I have not heard of any current BW player being better than him in SC2. I've also seen him play several games against current SC2 pros but I really don't remember how the games went. T.T
i saw some people saying he wasn't that great somewhere in the sc2 forums, not sure how credible they are though
EDIT:
On May 10 2012 14:41 Nightshade_ wrote: it feels like yesterday when all the BW diehards were screaming at me saying flash will never play SC2. mfw
This makes me super sad, but I also knew it was coming =[
The format feels very weird and artificial, though it is clear what they are trying to accomplish with regards to pushing SC2 over BW even in the dual PL
I still remember when I first heard about this. I never though it'd actually happen. What's even more shocking to me is that they will have the same players doing both games... thought they might have separate lineups or something. That said, I can't help but be curious at how the bw pros will do in sc2 once they get some hardcore practice in and a few months of practice.
On May 10 2012 14:25 NHY wrote: Ladder maps = BitByBit all day
Nah, considering that most ladder map now were made to be GSL maps before. Antiga is an ok to good map, depends on the match up. Cloud Kingdom is quite good too, considering that it's used by most of tournament and it won the TL map contest.
What could be better is replacing Ohana with Daybreak.
On May 10 2012 14:41 CoR wrote: "If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing." dont get it ... what ?
Someone posted a good example a few posts up
also good job not keeping any promises about the league. gg Brood War. :/
On May 10 2012 14:21 Hall0wed wrote: Should be interesting to say the least.
FBH is going to dominate I think, I have not heard of any current BW player being better than him in SC2. I've also seen him play several games against current SC2 pros but I really don't remember how the games went. T.T
i saw some people saying he wasn't that great somewhere in the sc2 forums, not sure how credible they are though
Wow, the games will be so poor. Playing both SC2 and BW will screw you over so much. I would guess that most of the practice will go to SC2, right? So they are learning the new game, trying to get the feel for the speed of SC2 units and the speed of the gameplay, getting used to the easy pathing and get comfortable with MBS, unlimited unit selection, auto mining, visible rally points, health bars always on (if they want). And then play BW again and it will feel like shit and the play will be sloppy.
And to go from 16 : 9 aspect ratio and playing on 1080p to 4:3 640x480 with different mouse settings won't help either. :/
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
I would guess that it means Best and Jaedong can't play for the SC2 portion of the match, but they don't get a win/loss from it.
Also, are they seriously just using ladder maps? It seems like they could've just asked, I don't know, anybody, who is currently involved in SC2 whether that was a good idea or not and gotten a unanimous "No."
Two of the "Ladder maps" are community maps that happen to be on the ladder. Entombed Valley, despite being a Blizzard map, is actually pretty decent. Only Antiga-with-golds is eyebrow-raising, and MLG uses it. It's not like it's Steppes of War.
This is amazing, what I am curious about is whether or not there will be a easily accessible stream for american viewers, and if there will be english commentators, and vods, all SC2 fans want to see this, how is all of the viewing going to work?
On May 10 2012 14:21 Hall0wed wrote: Should be interesting to say the least.
FBH is going to dominate I think, I have not heard of any current BW player being better than him in SC2. I've also seen him play several games against current SC2 pros but I really don't remember how the games went. T.T
i saw some people saying he wasn't that great somewhere in the sc2 forums, not sure how credible they are though
I'm pretty positive I saw him atleast take a game off a current Korean SC2 pro, so thats better than nothing. Obviously he isn't good relative to Code A even but I feel like he will be better than most others in PL this season, atleast for the first 2 rounds.
On May 10 2012 14:14 FuRong wrote: Interesting, Calm and the other Zergs are like "fuck this, I'm switching" and then Rush changes from T to Z? I guess he doesn't watch much GSL. Looks like even Fanta decided against the switch.
There's one thing I don't get though:
BW/SC2 Mix If your name is submitted for the 3rd game but the Bo3 is is 2-0, it still counts as you playing.
What does this mean? Let's say the lineups are:
Bisu vs Killer Fanta vs Baby Best vs Jaedong
If Bisu and Fanta win, does that mean that Best gets a win recorded against Jaedong without even playing? That can't be right. Can someone explain this?
I would guess that it means Best and Jaedong can't play for the SC2 portion of the match, but they don't get a win/loss from it.
Also, are they seriously just using ladder maps? It seems like they could've just asked, I don't know, anybody, who is currently involved in SC2 whether that was a good idea or not and gotten a unanimous "No."
Two of the "Ladder maps" are community maps that happen to be on the ladder. Entombed Valley, despite being a Blizzard map, is actually pretty decent. Only Antiga-with-golds is eyebrow-raising, and MLG uses it. It's not like it's Steppes of War.
I just wanted to see OGN make their own maps
Yeah gold minerals, no neutral depo at the bottom of your ramp and imbalance spawning positions (Antiga ladder edition) sucks.
I'm excited because if the BW elites are happy, then I guess we can't hope for more, but it they get disenchanted, Blizzard will have to drastically improve things.
On May 10 2012 14:21 Hall0wed wrote: Should be interesting to say the least.
FBH is going to dominate I think, I have not heard of any current BW player being better than him in SC2. I've also seen him play several games against current SC2 pros but I really don't remember how the games went. T.T
i saw some people saying he wasn't that great somewhere in the sc2 forums, not sure how credible they are though
The main problem I see occurring is that the same 6 players will be repeatedly played more than usual.
Say you have FBB playing BW for SKT. Since you want them playing BW again ASAP, the next game, they'll be sent for SC2. The other 3 spots can alternate, but say you have Sun, S2 and Hyuk. If they play SC2 the first match, and the next match sOO, S2, Hyuk play BW, Sun will be on a 2 match break assuming the FBB line isn't broken.
This whole alternating lineup thing can get very confusing and very dirty real fast.
On May 10 2012 14:41 Nightshade_ wrote: it feels like yesterday when all the BW diehards were screaming at me saying flash will never play SC2. mfw
This post just makes me rage. Not the fact that Flash plays SC2, I plan on supporting him and hope he does well (if he stays terran). But you are trying to rub your 1 inch esports dick in the face long time fans of Flash.
On May 10 2012 14:41 Nightshade_ wrote: it feels like yesterday when all the BW diehards were screaming at me saying flash will never play SC2. mfw
This post just makes me rage. Not the fact that Flash plays SC2, I plan on supporting him and hope he does well (if he stays terran). But you are trying to rub your 1 inch esports dick in the face long time fans of Flash.
On May 10 2012 14:41 Nightshade_ wrote: it feels like yesterday when all the BW diehards were screaming at me saying flash will never play SC2. mfw
This post just makes me rage. Not the fact that Flash plays SC2, I plan on supporting him and hope he does well (if he stays terran). But you are trying to rub your 1 inch esports dick in the face long time fans of Flash.
Its the same dude posting that crap, he is just a bad troll. Best to ignore him.
On May 10 2012 14:49 rslee wrote: The main problem I see occurring is that the same 6 players will be repeatedly played more than usual.
Say you have FBB playing BW for SKT. Since you want them playing BW again ASAP, the next game, they'll be sent for SC2. The other 3 spots can alternate, but say you have Sun, S2 and Hyuk. If they play SC2 the first match, and the next match sOO, S2, Hyuk play BW, Sun will be on a 2 match break assuming the FBB line isn't broken.
This whole alternating lineup thing can get very confusing and very dirty real fast.
Yeah, they should've just let the teams choose who plays what throughout the season. It's not like everyone in the SC2 half would just be pure B-teamers because of the ace match(which needs experienced players that can handle an important game) and even if some teams will decide to send the bottom half of their roster for the sc2 matches, they could still dominate just like the other B-teamers who transitioned earlier. I know that they're just helping the players prepare for the pure SC2 switch next next season, but, imo, this silly alternating games rule is just a stupid way to force the teams' main line-ups to play both games which could've been done better.
On May 10 2012 14:41 Nightshade_ wrote: it feels like yesterday when all the BW diehards were screaming at me saying flash will never play SC2. mfw
This post just makes me rage. Not the fact that Flash plays SC2, I plan on supporting him and hope he does well (if he stays terran). But you are trying to rub your 1 inch esports dick in the face long time fans of Flash.
The whole thread has been chocked full of sc2 trolls going after anyone who's a fan of BW with "I told you so" and "look who's laughing now" since it was created. Really could you expect anything different with how things have been going on TL forums lately? I'm really not going to be surprised if I log on one day and the whole BW section has been deleted or merged with the SC2 forums.
As hard as it is, and as many of them as there are, its best to try to ignore them.
The reason that the BW pro's like flash and stuff are enjoying sc2 is it's probably the first new game they've played since they got signed.
I love SC2, however I feel that either their opinions are forced to them (happens in korean society) or that they are really enjoying doing something new...I mean its like working in the same job for 4 years then moving to a new place in the same company...the job gets exciting again at least for a little while.
Wait for a few months and then we'll see if they still really enjoy the game
And to all the fellow sc2 fans bragging...please shut the fuck up...without Brood War we would have nothing. We may have been right about the eventual switch, but deep down all BW fans knew it. Stop being ass holes...you guys are making me sick
Can't wait for this travesty to commence. It will be more of a comedy show than a competitive league though. They should have given the players at least a month more, before they televise their SC2. It'll make it a reality show of "look how we suck at some new game" and "look how we suck at our perfectly mastered game, because we are still busy learning a new game".
I should have foreseen the rule about a picked progamer having to play both BW and SC2 eventually. It makes a lot of sense. It's a really good rule for a mixed league, because it makes it truly mixed for all competitors. Otherwise each team will design a BW roster and a SC2 roster, which would make the whole idea of a mixed league almost meaningless.
For the ace - I hope they only have SC2 during the season and change it to BW for the playoffs and grandfinal. That would be nice. An epic grandfinal with ace in BW is all I ask for.
Lol all the angry Stars comments about not missing post-season because of points. They are lean and mean, I like it! And Rush becoming zerg in SC2 to fully merge with his separated twin Zero.
Sad that T8 zergs are having a hard time. That probably means Jaedong...
this is going to be the most awful starcraft ever. man fuck. I don't think I'll even give this a try unless I hear really good things from BW fans. this is going to be like foreigner-level brood war (or even worse just cheeses every game) and sc2 which will always be bad no matter what. I just hope there's some chance that kespa will change back to full bw if the korean fans complain and boycott enough :\
There won't be much time till pro-teams will start buying sc2 pros for their games, and let the bw pros practice better. But there's a risk that bw will disappear and those players will have to retire.
i'm really looking forward to this! And i would love to see some organisation do a stream with a korean translation of some kind for all the global fans as long there's no global stream set up
On May 10 2012 15:23 arbiter_md wrote: There won't be much time till pro-teams will start buying sc2 pros for their games, and let the bw pros practice better. But there's a risk that bw will disappear and those players will have to retire.
kespa fully plans on going 100% sc2 after this season. so unless this is a huge failure and kespa decides to try to go back to bw (which they might not even be able to do if they made a contract with blizzard?), I don't think they will concentrate much on BW at all :\
we are going to see ODT-quality (IE HORRIBLE) games for the entirety of the next season probably :\
On May 10 2012 15:23 arbiter_md wrote: There won't be much time till pro-teams will start buying sc2 pros for their games, and let the bw pros practice better. But there's a risk that bw will disappear and those players will have to retire.
kespa fully plans on going 100% sc2 after this season. so unless this is a huge failure and kespa decides to try to go back to bw (which they might not even be able to do if they made a contract with blizzard?), I don't think they will concentrate much on BW at all :\
KeSPA's switching for a reason. If the SC2 experiment fails, BW will be replaced by nothing, and the KeSPA teams will collapse altogether. BW tried to survive on its own, and it can't anymore, and it's not like there's a huge desire to see Flash in LoL
On May 10 2012 15:28 danson wrote: i want tasteless and artosis to cast bw and sc2 in the same night. i can dream right
Never happening. Wolf, Khaldor, Artosis, and Tasteless all work for GOM, not OGN. No one else is moving to Korea. The best English casters OGN's gonna get are Torch and Moletrap, if they get English commentary at all.
On May 10 2012 14:52 Nightshade_ wrote: I've seen FBH KR ladder stats, he's barely above 50% in high masters as PROTOSS. So he's no doin too well
How is high masters in KR/TW not good after ~2weeks of playing?
Gosh, this topic is full of pesimistic people... All this stuff sounds purely exciting to me!
considering all you need to have to be high masters is macro and decision making, and BW pros have that, a 53% or so win rate on ladder is average
No, you need more than decision making and macro to be high masters on Korea... lol... but you wouldn't have a idea about that because you're probably not High master on any server let alone Korea...
On May 10 2012 15:30 DreamOen wrote: Finally they are comming, and they look far more likely to love SCII now.
Well, they had to say they hated SC2 when KeSPA and Blizz were at odds, and they have to say they love it now. Probably some like it, some hate it, and some actually hate BW after playing it 14 hours a day for years but have nothing else to do with their lives. I wouldn't take any of their words with too much weight, except MAYBE Flash saying that a new game is invigorating him, because Flash is super-competitive and playing a game where he's not a Bonjwa might be a motivator. Beyond that (and I guess Idra saying he hates SC2), take it all with a grain of salt.
Are they really going to use the ladder versions of the maps? OGN knows those maps are no good, they did run the WCG qualis, OGN needs to edit and re-lease PL/OGN versions with neutral depots or something to prevent block-ins.
Also, just realized how crucial the player in Game 3 is. As he could potentially be playing BW OR SC2 (from the sounds of it).
Awesome, loving the comments on and by Flash. Interesting developments indeed.. We're part of history now guys, enjoy this transition.. It's beautiful.
The only way not to be gay with protoss is to off-race, imo. (j/k)
On May 10 2012 15:36 bokchoi wrote: Also, just realized how crucial the player in Game 3 is. As he could potentially be playing BW OR SC2 (from the sounds of it).
No. Each player can only appear once in a match, ace excluded. The alternating game rule is about that player's next appearance in another match.
Eg: Flash is picked 3rd for the BW Bo3. They win 2-0 that Bo3, he doesn't get to play. He can't be picked for the SC2 Bo3, but could play in the ace (which doesn't count). However, next time he is picked to play in another match, it must be for the SC2 Bo3, not the BW Bo3. And so on. Basically each player will have equal BW and SC2 games this way, but still only appears once in a match, if we don't count the ace.
They might as well have gone for the full switch, as it is they may as well have amateurs playing, you wouldn't notice the difference simply due to the fact that the SC2 practice is going to be emphasized more so than Brood War. Honestly, the format is stupid... Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and it will neither have the top SC2 play in the world, nor the top BW play... Going into the SC2 world with a half ass'd first season seems like a terrible plan.
Does the lack of mention in the article mean Bisu is still Protoss and Fantasy is still Terran in SC2 contrary to the earlier news?
EDIT:
Q: Could you talk about any other famous players who changed races? Park Yong Woon (T1): In the end, no one. One player did attempt it, however.
I guess they didn't end up switching... that seems like good news. I don't like the idea of players switching even though the races area a lot difference BW --> SC2
Oh man love both games, but I am super curious and I know the games wont' be that good but to see all the bw pro's playing sc2 will be very interesting in my eyes . May 20'th I can't wait :D
11 hour opening day, I know what I'm doing May 20th.
Also its interesting how there seems to be a general consensus that Zerg is weak. I guess it makes sense though since scouting and and reacting correctly to timings is such a huge part of Zerg play. I wonder which race will do best though because I doubt it will be even at the start because, by not practicing with current SC2 pros, the BW team players are in a sort of bubble.
On May 10 2012 15:36 bokchoi wrote: Also, just realized how crucial the player in Game 3 is. As he could potentially be playing BW OR SC2 (from the sounds of it).
No. Each player can only appear once in a match, ace excluded. The alternating game rule is about that player's next appearance in another match.
Eg: Flash is picked 3rd for the BW Bo3. They win 2-0 that Bo3, he doesn't get to play. He can't be picked for the SC2 Bo3, but could play in the ace (which doesn't count). However, next time he is picked to play in another match, it must be for the SC2 Bo3, not the BW Bo3. And so on. Basically each player will have equal BW and SC2 games this way, but still only appears once in a match, if we don't count the ace.
Thanks fiqq for clearing this out, I was confused. It makes sense now.
Anyone else nervously waiting for the horrible cringing moment when in the middle of Proleague Finals, someone gets dropped because of interenet or server issues?
On May 10 2012 15:50 Simplistik wrote: The sun is setting over BroodWar. Soon it will be good night.
If SC2 continues to rise in general popularity, would the BW community ever approach a tournament and perhaps hold a smaller LAN tournament within these larger tournaments. BW could use the current global appeal of SC2 as a jump start to spark global interest in BW. Capitalize on those people who are not big PC gamers, but are considering a switch and can fully run BW, or those who are tight on money and want to try the SC experience for cheap. It may be overly optimistic, but you are still allowed to play BW.
Park Yong Woon (T1): This season, a new format and game has been introduced. We'll forget existing statistics or confidence, and approach this season with a humble attitude. Many teams desire to change their rank, but we will prevent that and prove that class is forever. We will win.
On May 10 2012 15:50 Simplistik wrote: The sun is setting over BroodWar. Soon it will be good night.
If SC2 continues to rise in general popularity, would the BW community ever approach a tournament and perhaps hold a smaller LAN tournament within these larger tournaments. BW could use the current global appeal of SC2 as a jump start to spark global interest in BW. Capitalize on those people who are not big PC gamers, but are considering a switch and can fully run BW, or those who are tight on money and want to try the SC experience for cheap. It may be overly optimistic, but you are still allowed to play BW.
This is what I'm praying for, like street fighter 2 getting a comeback at the big Evo tournament in Vegas this year :D
The day of the media day, and I've decided to go out and drink so that I don't have enough intelligence to correctly interpret this information fully. Sounds good though, for the SC2 fan inside foe me. Race changes are a bit disappointing, but I should be a better judge of that when I'm fully sober. I'm very excited to see BW progamers play SC2. It's about time that the elephant manifests itself in it's full Super-Saiayn glory.
On May 10 2012 15:23 arbiter_md wrote: There won't be much time till pro-teams will start buying sc2 pros for their games, and let the bw pros practice better. But there's a risk that bw will disappear and those players will have to retire.
kespa fully plans on going 100% sc2 after this season. so unless this is a huge failure and kespa decides to try to go back to bw (which they might not even be able to do if they made a contract with blizzard?), I don't think they will concentrate much on BW at all :\
KeSPA's switching for a reason. If the SC2 experiment fails, BW will be replaced by nothing, and the KeSPA teams will collapse altogether. BW tried to survive on its own, and it can't anymore, and it's not like there's a huge desire to see Flash in LoL
Its interesting how many BW Zergs switching and saying that its the weakest. It took them all of 3 months to figure what most Zerg players have been screaming at blizzard for months.
On May 10 2012 15:50 Simplistik wrote: The sun is setting over BroodWar. Soon it will be good night.
If SC2 continues to rise in general popularity, would the BW community ever approach a tournament and perhaps hold a smaller LAN tournament within these larger tournaments. BW could use the current global appeal of SC2 as a jump start to spark global interest in BW. Capitalize on those people who are not big PC gamers, but are considering a switch and can fully run BW, or those who are tight on money and want to try the SC experience for cheap. It may be overly optimistic, but you are still allowed to play BW.
This is what I'm praying for, like street fighter 2 getting a comeback at the big Evo tournament in Vegas this year :D
I would not at all be surprised to see this happen.
Ah well, we can't stop that anyway, time to get used and look forward to it. Ace match in SC2 still bothers me a bit, would've been nice if the teams could somehow decide what game the ace match is being played in.
Really excited about this. I wonder if the coaches will let their best BW players play SC2 or if they will try to gain advantage from the BW matches. A lot of strategy incoming
On May 10 2012 17:00 BookTwo wrote: gg sc2, bw pros have ARRIVED
I would curb my optimism if I was you. Even Flash says it'll take months, or more likely years, for him to reach his SC1 level in SC2.
All RTS is not alike, and SC2 is a different animal. You're not gonna see any SC1 pros suddenly curb stomp current SC2 pros. That said, I'm looking forward to Anaheim very much ^.^
On May 10 2012 17:14 Ruscour wrote: Fantasy stayed Terran! woooot
What a butchered format. Having to train for two games equally may drag down the level of play considerably. But I don't care because I'm itching to see BW pros play SC2.
On May 10 2012 17:19 Scorch wrote: What a butchered format. Having to train for two games equally may drag down the level of play considerably. But I don't care because I'm itching to see BW pros play SC2.
I think Teams will probably ask players to pick a primary focus based on how they perform internally. So some people will practice BW predominantly and play SC2 casually and visa versa just so the team can have players who are truely reliable in one game, but also in the worst case scenario could at least hold their own or show a respectable performance in the other. I doubt its 50/50
On May 10 2012 17:19 Scorch wrote: What a butchered format. Having to train for two games equally may drag down the level of play considerably. But I don't care because I'm itching to see BW pros play SC2.
I think Teams will probably ask players to pick a primary focus based on how they perform internally. So some people will practice BW predominantly and play SC2 casually and visa versa just so the team can have players who are truely reliable in one game, but also in the worst case scenario could at least hold their own or show a respectable performance in the other. I doubt its 50/50
yes, so why would flash switch to sc2, he's god in bw and he could help his team equally. or would he switch just to be the ace?
btw it is possible i missed it, but bisu didnt switch right?
Gotta say i love the format. The coaches will have a chance to truly shine in this format. They have to plan two rounds ahead when picking the players - since the players they chose have to play the other game the next round. So imagine that KT sends Flash to play BW first against some weak team. And next weak they get to play a stronger team and they can only send Flash for SC2 match and a SC2 ace match which we don't know if he could dominate (don't kill me Flash fans).
On the side note. Was wondering if Ace can use GSL players that are undergoing military service as a player on loan from GSL team? - this should be possible.
Ps2. Just noticed the map pool. Big congrats to ESV but ill miss the spaceshark...
I think we will get Moletrap + Torch for the english commentary. But maybe Khaldor will consider doing it. He is a machine so few more hours a day shouldn't be a problem.
Im sorry but this will just fail horribly. Forcing the players to play 2 games at the same time? The level of play in the SCII-games - albeit being the best overall RTS-players in the world - will not hold up. And the BW side of it will also be worse due to not being able to practice enough. Sad, just sad.
Oh shit. I am so excited. I hope they have "some" skill in SC2 otherwise it would look so redundant. Plxplxplx make it happen. They need to kick so serious ass.
On May 10 2012 17:46 Superouman wrote: I hope the korean commentators will still be the same, they give such a unique hype to each game.
I hope we can watch them instead of the english casters ^^. I don't like most english casters and something about koreans casting makes it feel SO much more exciting.
Geez...I can't even start on how I feel about this....................
My main concern about this forcing a player to play BW and next week SC2 and then go back etc, is that there is still an OSL going. I said in the OSL thread that I was worried about the drop in quality when players were practicing for both games but back then, I thought teams could decide whether a player plays one thing or the other. Now with a rule to make them play both games, my hopes for the OSL quality have fallen.
And just like last season, they are keeping the middle of the afternoon for the games so I cant watch the last BW games ever live (and this is a personal thing, so Im not whining just stating my opinion, but I dont enjoy stuff as much if it isn't live and that was part of the reason why this year's first season was a disappointment for me ).
Overall, to me, there nothing good about this piece of news
Well, BW is about to get a huge amount of exposure to foreign viewers, I know I'll be watching it for the first time with any seriousness, and yes I'm interested to see how it goes, and to learn a bit more about these players as they start playing SC2 as well.
How do we watch it though? it's going to be on youtube right but with no english commentary?
That seems like a pretty big failing at the start, they really need to strike while the iron is hot and they have time to sort this out surely? (if OGN LoL is anything to go by).
Who knows, maybe this is a second start for BW in the foreign community.
On May 10 2012 17:00 BookTwo wrote: gg sc2, bw pros have ARRIVED
I would curb my optimism if I was you. Even Flash says it'll take months, or more likely years, for him to reach his SC1 level in SC2.
All RTS is not alike, and SC2 is a different animal. You're not gonna see any SC1 pros suddenly curb stomp current SC2 pros. That said, I'm looking forward to Anaheim very much ^.^
err, yeah I think you will. flash got to masters or grandmasters without even knowing what the units actually did. give them a couple days/weeks and it'll be a roflstomp imo.
"Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games."
Can we somehow reduce the shitstorm from sc2-only fans that will be like: "and this is the players that supposed to destroy everybody? But they don't even play at the level of <your favorite sc2 pro>." ?
I'm excited to see how it turns out. Only thing that worries me is that the article suggests they'll be using ladder versions of SC2 maps. This is really really bad. The map pool they've got isn't too awful, but Antiga, Entombed really need to be X-spawns otherwise its not great. Also, Daybreak should be in as a 5th or instead of Entombed. Probably the best Sc2 map at the moment in terms of good games and balance.
Cool to hear how much Flash is enjoying SC2, also how honest he is about catching up to the current GOM crowd.
lots of people have different takes on what's happening (understandably) we're planning to watch this thing live in june and no matter how good/shitty it turns out... i know we'll be screaming like crazy when the players come to their booth!
On May 10 2012 13:24 baubo wrote: Probably the most interesting thing is if and when they start playing current SC2 progamers. Perhaps by allowing them to participate in GSL prelims. It would be a funny sight to see TBLS makikng their way up through Code B/A.
That would probably be the worst thing to happen. If Flash loses to some Code B scrub it'll turn off all the BW elitists and SC2 viewership will go down. FXOBoss had a very interesting blog post in which he said the bubble for SC2 has already ended, so it's a very critical time for SC2. Best case scenario would be for TBLS to do extremely well, but no one player dominates.
It's very doubtful any of the TBLS loses to some random SC2 progamer(not from one of current BW clubhouses).
I don't know, Bisu loses to random progamers in qualifiers already.
In Bisu defense - so do anybody, he just kinda doing it too often. The thing is - while bw pros will be forced to train in both games, they hardly will have chance to do really well in new game, so majority of fans could be just disappointed and leave.
All cool, all cool, but what about the maps? Very small map pool for SC2, I like it, but why Entombed ? Did Blizzard give them some kind of GM stats or something to chose it over Daybreak? If I remember correctly Daybreak is crazy balanced, am I wrong?
On May 10 2012 17:00 BookTwo wrote: gg sc2, bw pros have ARRIVED
I would curb my optimism if I was you. Even Flash says it'll take months, or more likely years, for him to reach his SC1 level in SC2.
All RTS is not alike, and SC2 is a different animal. You're not gonna see any SC1 pros suddenly curb stomp current SC2 pros. That said, I'm looking forward to Anaheim very much ^.^
err, yeah I think you will. flash got to masters or grandmasters without even knowing what the units actually did. give them a couple days/weeks and it'll be a roflstomp imo.
I'm sorry to impact your porcelain belief that your childhood hero will come and cleanse the heathens of StarCraft II, but you're wrong. He's said it himself. Also, he didn't get to masters without knowing what the units did, it's blindingly obvious what a marine is or what a siege tank is. All it takes to get to masters is proper mechanics anyway. GM league is HARD, and I don't think you realize what a jump it is to go from masters to the GSL, even korean masters.
The elephant in the room is an inflatable one. Soon the BW pros will put a needle to it, and transition succesfully - but not crushingly - into SC2.
On May 10 2012 18:01 Pure-SC2 wrote: Well, BW is about to get a huge amount of exposure to foreign viewers, I know I'll be watching it for the first time with any seriousness, and yes I'm interested to see how it goes, and to learn a bit more about these players as they start playing SC2 as well.
Who knows, maybe this is a second start for BW in the foreign community.
unfortunately the quality of games will deteriorate, and it saddens me that people's exposure to bw is going to be seeing the worst brood war in my time watching (at least a lot of the odt was poor; been watching since 2008).
good games will still pop up, and maybe I'm a bit skeptical, but the odt really ruined my optimism.
On May 10 2012 18:58 elagrion wrote: Can we somehow reduce the shitstorm from sc2-only fans that will be like: "and this is the players that supposed to destroy everybody? But they don't even play at the level of <your favorite sc2 pro>." ?
True true, however each stick have two sides. Some of BW guys also behave kinda butt hurt when someone challenges the superiority of BW players(not BW>SC2) in completely different game like SC2. It's been hinted that SC2 and BW are not as similar as people thought, now with quotes from trainers and players we can finally say that SC2 and BW, although have same races and are RTS, are different and being good at one, does not translate directly into being good at the other. I think Flash is a bit modest and probably PR has some role in it saying 1-2years, but it's not like, "lololol look at this game, GM after one month, GSL after two"
I'll just ask : why is there so much hate towards this ? Just because of SC2 ?
Personnally, i didn't had the chance to watch BW competition (until end of 2011), i regret it because the little i've seen was absolutely great, but anyway, i'm very interested to see if BW pros can make the transition. I think that though this isn't the same game, the way they practiced for BW will translate well. They know how to practice for such a game, even if it's not the same.
I find this quote from Flash particularly interesting : Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
Ace match is SC2, bleh. I mean this is the last proleague event that will feature BW, it's going to be SC2 from here on out, might as well give BW the ace matches for one last time.
Though I can appreciate that the last BW ace match ever played was a fricken awesome game between Bisu and Flash.
Sounds like a good thing, excited to see how this will go.
Everyone will be able to get a bit more knowledge if they only particularly watch one or the other and maybe it will lower the bickering that's been going on these forums for the last 2 years but doubt it
On May 10 2012 19:25 Ragnarork wrote: I'll just ask : why is there so much hate towards this ? Just because of SC2 ?
Personnally, i didn't had the chance to watch BW competition (until end of 2011), i regret it because the little i've seen was absolutely great, but anyway, i'm very interested to see if BW pros can make the transition. I think that though this isn't the same game, the way they practiced for BW will translate well. They know how to practice for such a game, even if it's not the same.
I find this quote from Flash particularly interesting : Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
We know where it lead him for SC:BW....
A short summary of that will be this hybrid BW-SC2 proleague with rules that forces the players to practice both games will only lead to either terrible all-over-the-place games or a lot of cheese strats just like what we saw in the previous PL season and ODT. This season is focused on making koreans watch SC2 and some believe that this could also get foreigners to watch BW but when they do, they're only going to be disappointed with the quality of games. Not just SC2, not just BW, but both. Those SC2 fans who think that all this "hate" are "just because of SC2" should read some posts from threads like this before jumping into conclusions. Not every BW spectator hates SC2.
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
Abomination. Broodwar isnt something that fills the gap while i wait for something better, its THE perfect thing, i'm not interested in anything else. BB Broodwar...
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
Yes, this is why so many fans are angry. If you're going to end the BW pro-scene, just make a full switch. Why make players and fans have to go through this crap.
On May 10 2012 19:25 Ragnarork wrote: I'll just ask : why is there so much hate towards this ? Just because of SC2 ?
Personnally, i didn't had the chance to watch BW competition (until end of 2011), i regret it because the little i've seen was absolutely great, but anyway, i'm very interested to see if BW pros can make the transition. I think that though this isn't the same game, the way they practiced for BW will translate well. They know how to practice for such a game, even if it's not the same.
I find this quote from Flash particularly interesting : Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
We know where it lead him for SC:BW....
A short summary of that will be this hybrid BW-SC2 proleague with rules that forces the players to practice both games will only lead to either terrible all-over-the-place games or a lot of cheese strats just like what we saw in the previous PL season and ODT. This season is focused on making koreans watch SC2 and some believe that this could also get foreigners to watch BW but when they do, they're only going to be disappointed with the quality of games. Not just SC2, not just BW, but both. Those SC2 fans who think that all this "hate" are "just because of SC2" should read some posts from threads like this before jumping into conclusions. Not every BW spectator hates SC2.
Thanks for the explanation. I was asking to precisely avoid jumping into such conclusions...
And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
I love this but i can agree with the sentiment that having both is a bad idea. Go SC2 and be done with it. However i can see why they did it.. but yeah maybe it won't work as intended.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
I'm really interested in watching the SC2 side of this to see how exactly will a new, independent metagame develop and how that will impact the existing SC2 scene.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
Yeah, like I said earlier. I'm expecting a lot of the games to be crap for both because of the split focus/training.
By the way, this now is extraordinarily painful, because they learn SC2 for the first time - that's extremely time consuming.
However...
Once they get deeply skilled in SC2, it would become much easier actually to perform close to their highest skill in both games and prepare well for each match. Especially since the scheme still allows to plan this in advance.
That's why I still have solid hopes for the OSL to remain pure BW - and that's why they still say they are undecided about OSL and don't call their OGN individual league in SC2 "OSL something".
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
Yeah, Korean SC is now dead, as far as I'm concerned. It's really destroyed, and I won't be going near it again. Pretty sad.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
As were half of the proleague games the last season and players weren't practicing sc2 intensively or at all back than as far as I know. Well see how its going to be like in the ro16.I'm not saying that the games will be a work of art but they may end up being better than everyone expected but at a high cost.
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
A lot of people have been saying the same thing for some time now. -_-
It's honestly not good for entertainment value or competition. We'll be lucky to get 1-2 decent/good games a night with this format.
If I'm GOM or any other League. I'm laughing because KeSPA just deteriorated one thing they had going for them. This will be the one season to forget.
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
On May 10 2012 21:43 dragonborn wrote: from IMMvp's Interview
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
Q: Will you be using the English client of SC2? A: We thought about it as we considered the global audience, but for now we've decided on the Korean client.
Did anyone else pick up on this? In the previous interview they mentioned using the English client as a consideration for BW fans. If they aren't thinking about BW fans or international fans that just leaves Korean SC2 fans. I wonder if this was decided by whoever came up with this mixed league in the first place.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
This was done intentionally so that people wouldn't be able to point to great BW games right before SC2 comes out and claim that there is something worth saving. It's not to ease the transition of BW to SC2 but to force it even more. Thank you @ Blizzard, KeSPa, and everyone else involved in this murder. The best part is that the Korean BW following is probably STILL stronger than the SC2 one, but it sure won't be after this season. Perfect plot! Good work all around, pass around the cigars. FML.
Thank you for the coverage, Waxangel, Kimbilly! Well, here's my take:
Text by: TeamLiquid ESPORTS First bad sign, BW section articles are always signed by the writer, not a nameless amalgam entity like the SC2 articles. And I hate that ESPORTS crap. Well, march on soldier.
Ace Match SC2 if necessary(...) Players must alternate between BW and SC2 This was a heavy blow. SC2 only ace makes it so that teams can wing BW completely, as an illustrious poster has said previously. This will decrease BW quality even more (ODT, anyone?) which will put off the fans both watching the broadcast and in the audience. God, having fans leave after the first half would be so akward and bad for the players...
Song Dong Gyun (ACE)(...) This will definitely show up as good results in the season.(...) This was like the only positive notion I have salvaged from the conference: ACE is not disbanding, so progamers might still have a way to kick ass during military service (and learn to fly jet fighters). On the flipside T8 still without a sponsor, which worries me greatly. Please save Jaedong! And FailJaehoon! I would like to see at least one more Bermuda Recall live.
Park Yong Woon (T1): Looking at the stats, and the fact that SC2 is the latter half of the series and the Ace match, we're looking at a 6 : 3 ratio of SC2 to SC1. Confirmation that BW will be somewhat neglected in the Lovecraft-Frankenstein(TM) format. Has the sun set during Shinhan era, seeing as the games weren't that breathtaking in SKPlanet Season 1? I hope we will still get to see a couple gems, and I am sure that it will be worth tuning in for a chance that it happens.
It's just having to find the fortitude to will through all the bad games... its not like I am willing to drink beers in the middle of the night in the middle of the working week. New schedule is not kind on European viewers.
Park Yong Woon (T1)(...)we will prevent that and prove that class is forever. The man has the most class among Proleague coaches Remember that picture with the suit and glasses when other coaches did not pay too much attention to attire? Oozing class. Coach Park best coach.
Will you be using the English client of SC2: NO This sucks. I like my Starcraft in the language that everyone understands: Starcraft. Korean is the language of casting, not 'viewing'. Does this mean no more 'chogolinguu', 'oooh, drone, drone, YAAAH DRONEUU' and 'keriaa'? It will be quite sad then. English names are full of delicious vowels which can be hung onto when screaming loudly. Are Korean names similar in that regard? Can someone familiar with the Korean client tell me if there is still potential?
All in all it was not the kind of news you wish to start your day with. We knew the rumours, were willing to grit our teeth and get through the new game. But small things like the forced player switching, ace being only SC2 and everyone around the board admitting that BW will be neglected is downright terrible.
Since its the players I like so much, I will catch the opening day to see what is what in the new order of things. But after that I will probably try to catch as many BW games as I can. Afterall, when OSL finishes these will be the last progames you will ever be able to see. Cherish the BBS, hydras in your natural, floating minerals. In October the only fix you'll get is amateur leagues, which are not quite the same (they're still fun to watch mind you). And Afreeca streams. I have to learn how to watch them when bgvrt isn't streaming.
That said I will avoid most of SC2 sets. The hours are not kind and the quality will be awful. I'll support my team, but maybe checking the results in LR thread might be a better option.
And what are we going to do about the LR threads? I saw Rawr say to keep them separate, I wonder how it's gonna work out. And I have just realised we will no longer see the AWESOME Proleague writeups in the form we love...
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
This was done intentionally so that people wouldn't be able to point to great BW games right before SC2 comes out and claim that there is something worth saving. It's not to ease the transition of BW to SC2 but to force it even more. Thank you @ Blizzard, KeSPa, and everyone else involved in this murder. The best part is that the Korean BW following is probably STILL stronger than the SC2 one, but it sure won't be after this season. Perfect plot! Good work all around, pass around the cigars. FML.
What, you think that they played terrible by intention? No, definitely not. They are just not in their normal condition because of the SC2 practice. But yeah, the games are unwatchable.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
This was done intentionally so that people wouldn't be able to point to great BW games right before SC2 comes out and claim that there is something worth saving. It's not to ease the transition of BW to SC2 but to force it even more. Thank you @ Blizzard, KeSPa, and everyone else involved in this murder. The best part is that the Korean BW following is probably STILL stronger than the SC2 one, but it sure won't be after this season. Perfect plot! Good work all around, pass around the cigars. FML.
What, you think that they played terrible by intention? No, definitely not. They are just not in their normal condition because of the SC2 practice. But yeah, the games are unwatchable.
Not the players, he means the people who are planning the transition hope for bad games. That's a pretty strong accusation, but not that unlikely.
On May 10 2012 19:25 Ragnarork wrote: I'll just ask : why is there so much hate towards this ? Just because of SC2 ?
Personnally, i didn't had the chance to watch BW competition (until end of 2011), i regret it because the little i've seen was absolutely great, but anyway, i'm very interested to see if BW pros can make the transition. I think that though this isn't the same game, the way they practiced for BW will translate well. They know how to practice for such a game, even if it's not the same.
I find this quote from Flash particularly interesting : Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
We know where it lead him for SC:BW....
i did that too,at first it was nice, then stopped after three months when it became boring, felt a huge lack of depth and i couldnt stand the flaws of the engine anymore so i stopped playing, a lot of things were missing, and i went back to bw in no time
EDIT: ^ this happened to me too. Original Post: I hope stork just plays BW, he could win the OSL and he's kinda old for switching to a new game anyway, and it would break my heart to see him play individual sc2 leagues.
Q: Will you be using the English client of SC2? A: We thought about it as we considered the global audience, but for now we've decided on the Korean client.
Did anyone else pick up on this? In the previous interview they mentioned using the English client as a consideration for BW fans. If they aren't thinking about BW fans or international fans that just leaves Korean SC2 fans. I wonder if this was decided by whoever came up with this mixed league in the first place.
Notice also that because of that they are using ladder versions not tournament ones of the maps
SC2 was pretty bad early on, but it's got better. Still far from where it needs to be, but they're getting closer and the ladder maps are still pretty bad, lmao.
Some of you might be able to appreciate the gameplay in the other SC2 leagues more.
KeSPA's going to have a lot of growing pains early on.
this hurts me so much...i thought they would give bw a little respect and gave bw the last chance to become the choice of ace game.. but no.. NO RESPECT AT ALL bw is the game that help esport grow so much in korea and now they just murder it. too sad...
i will do a protest myself, just watch all bw sets and leave when sc2 set starts.
I personally think it's cool, that the BW Pro's are switching (YES, I'm a guy from SC2), but I don't like that format to be honest. Why a SC2 Ace Match? That doesn't make sense in my opinion, I mean they aren't playing SC2 for THAT long now, that they could play really high quality games ... I mean yeah, they will catch up pretty soon on SC2, but I don't think, that they will play this fast on GSL level or something...
Han Sang Yong (Eight): Some tried at first, but they ran into tough match-ups so they reverted. Zerg players are having a hard time, so they are considering changing.
S2: I'm not at the skill level to talk balance, but all the races seem good except Zer
Light: I think Zerg looks the weakest, and Terran is a race that looks strong when played well. However, I haven't reached that level yet, and TvP is a bit hard.
Being a BW-fan these news aren't exactly making me happy, but this format seems like it would be worse than just having pure SC2. Especially if all ace-matches are gonna be SC2, since that just gives the teams even less incentive to practice BW, which will inevitably result in worse games. I'd rather they retire BW altogether than start kicking someone who's already down.
Oh well, at least we got a very good final in the last "real" proleague...
On May 10 2012 22:51 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: I personally think it's cool, that the BW Pro's are switching (YES, I'm a guy from SC2), but I don't like that format to be honest. Why a SC2 Ace Match? That doesn't make sense in my opinion, I mean they aren't playing SC2 for THAT long now, that they could play really high quality games ... I mean yeah, they will catch up pretty soon on SC2, but I don't think, that they will play this fast on GSL level or something...
Dunno what to think about this format.
I think the vast majority have a problem with it regardless of what game they like/play once they actually understand the format. There will always be a few exceptions of the rule and they'll state it's a transition phase that helps bring the two communities together.
To me it isn't really fair to the players or to the competition. Teams are certainly going to be stretched thin with the OSL still going and now this.
On May 10 2012 21:35 Dante08 wrote: I'm interested to see the BW pros play SC2 on one hand but I really hope the quality of BW games doesn't drop as much T.T
On May 10 2012 22:52 kakaman wrote: Doesn't this guarantee TBLS play BW? That's the only way they would be eligible for the Ace match.
Assuming Flash plays every ace of KT (and every match has an ace) - he'll play BW in one match, SC2 in the next match, BW in the next... etc alternating. And SC2 in all aces. So yes, TBLS will play a BW set every second match they are used. But also just as many SC2 sets throughout the season + all aces.
Oddly enough this can allow people with worse winrate on the roster, if they are better balanced between the two games. Player A winrates: ~~ 70% BW ~~ 20% SC2 Player B winrates: ~~ 40% BW ~~ 60% SC2 In 20 alternating sets, A wins 9, B wins 10, so B becomes more valuable to the team, even though in BW A has 70% winrate and B has 40% winrate (and just 60% SC2 winrate).
You know, I'm quite angry, because they force this in such a hurry. They should have let those respected highly skilled progamers to train SC2 calmly for at least 3 months, before starting a professional televised league with them playing a game they are still learning. It's basically an absurd. In theory, they could actually learn the game and reach a level where they would be able to play well both SC2 and BW simultaneously. But that takes time, they need to get into SC2 first. While they are still transitioning, of course both performances will suffer. It gives the false impression that one can't play both games, which I don't fully agree with. But I agree that one can't simultaneously be playing the best RTS and intensively learning a new one. The learning has to be complete first. Then it could be possible, but they just force it and ruin a potentially not so horrible idea.
On May 10 2012 21:35 Dante08 wrote: I'm interested to see the BW pros play SC2 on one hand but I really hope the quality of BW games doesn't drop as much T.T
Too late
Yup, it's already dropped off big time and there should be no excuses.
I have a strong feeling, especially after reading flash and storks comments, that there won't be domination by BW pros. It will be all about how much you've practiced SC2. Can't wait to say I told you so to the SC2 haters .
So they're going to have to be practicing both games at the same time? Yuck. It's obvious from the sloppy play in the recent OSL that not even the best players can practice two games at the same time.
On May 10 2012 22:52 kakaman wrote: Doesn't this guarantee TBLS play BW? That's the only way they would be eligible for the Ace match.
Assuming Flash plays every ace of KT (and every match has an ace) - he'll play BW in one match, SC2 in the next match, BW in the next... etc alternating. And SC2 in all aces. So yes, TBLS will play a BW set every second match they are used. But also just as many SC2 sets throughout the season + all aces.
Oddly enough this can allow people with worse winrate on the roster, if they are better balanced between the two games. Player A winrates: ~~ 70% BW ~~ 20% SC2 Player B winrates: ~~ 40% BW ~~ 60% SC2 In 20 alternating sets, A wins 9, B wins 10, so B becomes more valuable to the team, even though in BW A has 70% winrate and B has 40% winrate (and just 60% SC2 winrate).
Interesting...this makes the format incredibly dumb. Assuming Flash is practicing SC2 as much as he is saying so, there's a possibility he would suck in BW from not practicing and still suck in SC2 because it's just a totally new game. Especially since rosters can be set every month, we may see unknowns on each team playing Ace matches.
On May 10 2012 20:51 Zergneedsfood wrote: And the thing is you realize that the BW games are going to be utter shit because no one's going to practice from them as much, knowing that the full switch to SC2 is coming anyway.
So in other words, we get to watch the final days of BW as the days when everyone stops even practicing the game.
That doesn't make any sense tho.There is a prize money for these things.You honestly think the finalists of the OSL are going to be like:" O well fuck this first place check" and not end up practicing at all? No lol.If anything these people will practice more in the upcoming week than they have in their entire career and that is the real problem here.The greed of kespa and sponsors have thrown them into such a situation that they will be mentally on the edge... I would not be surprised if we see decent or very good quality of the games but the players will suffer so much its going to be ridiculous.
Have you SEEN any of the OSL games?
Pure shit. I don't need to argue logistics or theories when the evidence is right there. The OSL games are terrible.
This was done intentionally so that people wouldn't be able to point to great BW games right before SC2 comes out and claim that there is something worth saving. It's not to ease the transition of BW to SC2 but to force it even more. Thank you @ Blizzard, KeSPa, and everyone else involved in this murder. The best part is that the Korean BW following is probably STILL stronger than the SC2 one, but it sure won't be after this season. Perfect plot! Good work all around, pass around the cigars. FML.
That's a pretty serious accusation.
You know, when you think about it, this mixed league is a pretty big 'fuck you' to the actual players. If they're going to switch to SC2, they should do it. Otherwise all the foreign SC2 fans will tune in, see crappy half-assed SC2, and say "Well, that was underwhelming", and not watch Proleague anymore. It's not like there's an SC2 shortage. And then proleague will be right back where it started six months ago: tied to a game without the Korean fanbase to support it (anymore in BW's case, ever in SC2's), and no love from the fat wallet foreigners.
At first i thought that is better to have any BW than no BW at all but lately I changed my mind after the recent quality of BW games ..... They shoulda just switched straight to SC2 instead of mixing terrible BW and SC2 games at the same time .
I just feel so disgusted how BW will end. Let it die gracefully instead of this abomination that we will witness in the future T_T
On May 10 2012 23:53 andrewlt wrote: Can we have a separate LR thread in the BW section? I think almost all of the forum veterans who understand both games will flock to the BW section.
lol. Or maybe, they would go to the BW LR to discuss the BW games, and the SC2 LR to discuss the SC2 games?
Sheesh, even discussing the LR threads is an opportunity to be elitist ass.
Players having to practice both games will lead to mediocre games. The end of the beautiful legend is upon us. :'( Legacy of the void better be damn good since it's going to replace the best strategy game ever made.
The three most beautiful things that I know of are:
1. The universe, and physics 2. StarCraft: Brood War 3. Music
And now the end is finally coming. I can't fucking believe it.
On May 11 2012 00:17 Neo7 wrote: Bo1 Ace Match SC2 if necessary
I am not happy about this. Needs to be BW ACE Match.
What about a rotating ace match? i.e, round 1 is BW, round2 is SC2?
Or is it BW or no dice?
No dice. If it included teams from GSTL or was only GSTL then I would agree to SC2 alternating or no BW ace match respectively. The KeSPA teams have their greatest skill in Brood War so a BW ACE Match guarantees a good match.
I'm sure that given some time Starcraft 2 can produce the same levels of excitement and players showing the same level of perfection as we are currently seeing with Broodwar, but I still wish this day wouldn't come.
Fact is that these are two different games so it's sad that one of them is going. I love watching both Sc:Bw and Sc2, but I think I will only watch the Broodwar matches of this Proleague. Proleague is a Broodwar league and GSL is a Sc2 league and I would love things to stay this way. I'm also not looking forward to seeing these Broodwar legends getting smashed at Sc2 as much as the Sc2 players would loose in a game of Broodwar, when the next Proleague comes around. If they actually practice enough Sc2 to be on par with the current Sc2 pros then the quality of the Bw matches will probably be sad this season.
On May 11 2012 00:12 vOdToasT wrote: Legacy of the void better be damn good since it's going to replace the best strategy game ever made.
It's in Blizzard's hand to put in less boring units... (bring back reavers? or something)
RIP BroodWar, its unfortunate that this terrific game has to die in such shitty circumstances in forced cooperation with its "still developing" sequel. bye TL
Putting SC2 as the ace match is dumb decision. If they wanted to introduce BW fans to SC2, they should have made it so:
BW SC2 BW ace match
That way you 'force' bw people to watch some sc2 (at least sporadically) while they wait to see if there's an ace match, and if there's one, watch what's in between till it's played.
Replays with a protoss Firebathero on Korean top masters. Since Firebathero is confirmed to play under that name, likely the real one. His opponent was a foreign semi-pro, and these are a month old. I ran them through SC2gears to get some numbers. A minute here is a normal human minute, not a Blizzard minute
APM: 224 EAPM: 148 Redundancy: 33% Macro APM: 77 Micro APM: 163 Average game length (with a sample size of two PvTs): 17:24
Game 599 Macro seemed solid, but not Aria-level "wow", but he was playing the most passive terran in the world, so he didn't have to defend any pressure or drops. Really not a good game, even for SC2. FBH keeps his money low off two bases, but it starts to creep up a bit when he takes his third. Terran doesn't play that well (no drops, sits under storms), but FBH still loses
Game 600, played a week later Most of the same. Terran was not very good (compared to pros), so hard to judge, as he had little pressure. Money issues on 3 base again, getting to 1000/500 at the 15 minute mark. Just before the 20 minute mark, he's at 1300/1300. He makes a bunch of HT after that to spend 1000 of that gas, but still has 4-digit minerals, just chillin', not being zealots, even though he's at 150 supply going zealot/archon. It's not a matter of not enough production, either, as the nexuses in his main, natural, and third are all sitting at 100 energy. He seems to be able to spend gas OR minerals, but not both.
He's not awful, but if this is the vaunted BW mechanics at work, then SC2 Proleague might be in trouble. He should've been chronoing those gateways and keeping his money down :|
On May 10 2012 15:50 Simplistik wrote: The sun is setting over BroodWar. Soon it will be good night.
If SC2 continues to rise in general popularity, would the BW community ever approach a tournament and perhaps hold a smaller LAN tournament within these larger tournaments. BW could use the current global appeal of SC2 as a jump start to spark global interest in BW. Capitalize on those people who are not big PC gamers, but are considering a switch and can fully run BW, or those who are tight on money and want to try the SC experience for cheap. It may be overly optimistic, but you are still allowed to play BW.
What you're discussing here is virtually impossible, everything that BW does will have to be on it's own, and even then, anyone who pushed it to become huge (which is not impossible) would end up in a lawsuit against Blizzard - That much is a guarantee, they would never allow a rising BW threat to perhaps jeopardize 2-3 extra sales on Starcraft 2.1 and Starcraft 2.2. Anything that would involve attempting to get Starcraft: Brood War onto the stage at big LANs would fall under deaf ears.
On May 11 2012 00:45 IntoTheWow wrote: Putting SC2 as the ace match is dumb decision. If they wanted to introduce BW fans to SC2, they should have made it so:
BW SC2 BW ace match
That way you 'force' bw people to watch some sc2 (at least sporadically) while they wait to see if there's an ace match, and if there's one, watch what's in between till it's played.
The biggest issue in my opinion is not going to be the ace match, but the mediocre games.
I like using FBH as my benchmark for vaunted BW mechanics too. He's such a great standard, especially since he beat Savior in that one game where he floated so much money he could just sit on two bases and make battlecruisers.
They really should make the ace match be bw still, but obviously this was blizzard's decision and not kespa's so it's highly doubtful it will change. Also, if they are going to give sc2 the honor of being played in PL then they need to do it with non-trash maps. Has KeSPA confirmed at all if their bw map making team will switch over to sc2? It would sure be a breath of fresh air to get some decent maps in sc2 for once. It's a shame that possible the last PL will be such a sham.
On May 11 2012 00:45 IntoTheWow wrote: Putting SC2 as the ace match is dumb decision. If they wanted to introduce BW fans to SC2, they should have made it so:
BW SC2 BW ace match
That way you 'force' bw people to watch some sc2 (at least sporadically) while they wait to see if there's an ace match, and if there's one, watch what's in between till it's played.
But forcing the most deciding match to be BW when BW will not be in next season would be confusing for the players to practice I think. I think the change was put in place for the players and not really the fans.
A BW ace match only makes sense if this hybrid format were to be permanent. Since a full transition to SC2 is coming after this season, it makes much more sense to place more importance on SC2 to encourage teams to practice it more. I would really prefer the ace match be BO3, though, since SC2 games are usually over more quickly than BW games.
Replays with a protoss Firebathero on Korean top masters. Since Firebathero is confirmed to play under that name, likely the real one. His opponent was a foreign semi-pro, and these are a month old. I ran them through SC2gears to get some numbers. A minute here is a normal human minute, not a Blizzard minute
APM: 224 EAPM: 148 Redundancy: 33% Macro APM: 77 Micro APM: 163 Average game length (with a sample size of two PvTs): 17:24
Game 599 Macro seemed solid, but not Aria-level "wow", but he was playing the most passive terran in the world, so he didn't have to defend any pressure or drops. Really not a good game, even for SC2. FBH keeps his money low off two bases, but it starts to creep up a bit when he takes his third. Terran doesn't play that well (no drops, sits under storms), but FBH still loses
Game 600, played a week later Most of the same. Terran was not very good (compared to pros), so hard to judge, as he had little pressure. Money issues on 3 base again, getting to 1000/500 at the 15 minute mark. Just before the 20 minute mark, he's at 1300/1300. He makes a bunch of HT after that to spend 1000 of that gas, but still has 4-digit minerals, just chillin', not being zealots, even though he's at 150 supply going zealot/archon. It's not a matter of not enough production, either, as the nexuses in his main, natural, and third are all sitting at 100 energy. He seems to be able to spend gas OR minerals, but not both.
He's not awful, but if this is the vaunted BW mechanics at work, then SC2 Proleague might be in trouble. He should've been chronoing those gateways and keeping his money down :|
Aria? Is the one zerg who played vs Huk, and "Jaedong"?
On May 11 2012 00:55 Zergneedsfood wrote: I like using FBH as my benchmark for vaunted BW mechanics too. He's such a great standard, especially since he beat Savior in that one game where he floated so much money he could just sit on two bases and make battlecruisers.
Replays with a protoss Firebathero on Korean top masters. Since Firebathero is confirmed to play under that name, likely the real one. His opponent was a foreign semi-pro, and these are a month old. I ran them through SC2gears to get some numbers. A minute here is a normal human minute, not a Blizzard minute
APM: 224 EAPM: 148 Redundancy: 33% Macro APM: 77 Micro APM: 163 Average game length (with a sample size of two PvTs): 17:24
Game 599 Macro seemed solid, but not Aria-level "wow", but he was playing the most passive terran in the world, so he didn't have to defend any pressure or drops. Really not a good game, even for SC2. FBH keeps his money low off two bases, but it starts to creep up a bit when he takes his third. Terran doesn't play that well (no drops, sits under storms), but FBH still loses
Game 600, played a week later Most of the same. Terran was not very good (compared to pros), so hard to judge, as he had little pressure. Money issues on 3 base again, getting to 1000/500 at the 15 minute mark. Just before the 20 minute mark, he's at 1300/1300. He makes a bunch of HT after that to spend 1000 of that gas, but still has 4-digit minerals, just chillin', not being zealots, even though he's at 150 supply going zealot/archon. It's not a matter of not enough production, either, as the nexuses in his main, natural, and third are all sitting at 100 energy. He seems to be able to spend gas OR minerals, but not both.
He's not awful, but if this is the vaunted BW mechanics at work, then SC2 Proleague might be in trouble. He should've been chronoing those gateways and keeping his money down :|
Aria? Is the one zerg who played vs Huk, and "Jaedong"?
Yeah. A lot of people thought he was a BW pro because of his macro, but he was just some dude in the end who never did much afterwards.
The high point for SC2 mechanics so far is Aria, who was noteworthy pretty much solely for macro
(Game starts at 5:30)
I didn't see much of the "out and about" from FBH, and I was watching his FPVOD. He mostly just stayed in his base. This is not only not revolutionary, it's not even all that good by modern SC2 standards.
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
On May 11 2012 00:45 IntoTheWow wrote: Putting SC2 as the ace match is dumb decision. If they wanted to introduce BW fans to SC2, they should have made it so:
BW SC2 BW ace match
That way you 'force' bw people to watch some sc2 (at least sporadically) while they wait to see if there's an ace match, and if there's one, watch what's in between till it's played.
The biggest issue in my opinion is not going to be the ace match, but the mediocre games.
Yeah, I'm not shitting on level of play, else my rant would be 1 page long, not 2 lines. I'm just pointing out how even they don't even think the most basic things over.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
It slipped my mind, but are the Kespa teams going to participate in foreign events for the first year (not including MLG Anaheim). It could be pretty disastrous.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Are you under the impression that when Flash and Jaedong switch more BW fans won't watch SC2? Those players are still popular in KR, not sure what your reasoning is here.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Because of being fans of the players and not solely the game
Replays with a protoss Firebathero on Korean top masters. Since Firebathero is confirmed to play under that name, likely the real one. His opponent was a foreign semi-pro, and these are a month old. I ran them through SC2gears to get some numbers. A minute here is a normal human minute, not a Blizzard minute
APM: 224 EAPM: 148 Redundancy: 33% Macro APM: 77 Micro APM: 163 Average game length (with a sample size of two PvTs): 17:24
Game 599 Macro seemed solid, but not Aria-level "wow", but he was playing the most passive terran in the world, so he didn't have to defend any pressure or drops. Really not a good game, even for SC2. FBH keeps his money low off two bases, but it starts to creep up a bit when he takes his third. Terran doesn't play that well (no drops, sits under storms), but FBH still loses
Game 600, played a week later Most of the same. Terran was not very good (compared to pros), so hard to judge, as he had little pressure. Money issues on 3 base again, getting to 1000/500 at the 15 minute mark. Just before the 20 minute mark, he's at 1300/1300. He makes a bunch of HT after that to spend 1000 of that gas, but still has 4-digit minerals, just chillin', not being zealots, even though he's at 150 supply going zealot/archon. It's not a matter of not enough production, either, as the nexuses in his main, natural, and third are all sitting at 100 energy. He seems to be able to spend gas OR minerals, but not both.
He's not awful, but if this is the vaunted BW mechanics at work, then SC2 Proleague might be in trouble. He should've been chronoing those gateways and keeping his money down :|
Can't believe you try to analyze a random ladder replay like that in the way you did... hope you realize that it's completely and utterly useless to analyze a ladder replay as you did. Just letting you know, you wasted your time.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Are you under the impression that when Flash and Jaedong switch more BW fans won't watch SC2? Those players are still popular in KR, not sure what your reasoning is here.
Maybe some people will, but I find it strange. I don't care if Mozart makes pop, rap, or country music. I still don't like the music, just because I liked his old music.
This has the potential for far less preferred matchups (ie: JvF) because when T8 plays KT, it's possible that Jaedong has to play SC2 and Flash has to play BW. I guess they can meet in the ace, but still..
On the other hand, depending on the lineups they start with at the beginning of the season, there's a higher chance that they will play each other. 1/3 is far better than 1/6.
But all in all, there's a much easier chance of sniping ace players. Unless coaches do not include them in the lineup at all, you have a 1/3 chance of sniping.
Replays with a protoss Firebathero on Korean top masters. Since Firebathero is confirmed to play under that name, likely the real one. His opponent was a foreign semi-pro, and these are a month old. I ran them through SC2gears to get some numbers. A minute here is a normal human minute, not a Blizzard minute
APM: 224 EAPM: 148 Redundancy: 33% Macro APM: 77 Micro APM: 163 Average game length (with a sample size of two PvTs): 17:24
Game 599 Macro seemed solid, but not Aria-level "wow", but he was playing the most passive terran in the world, so he didn't have to defend any pressure or drops. Really not a good game, even for SC2. FBH keeps his money low off two bases, but it starts to creep up a bit when he takes his third. Terran doesn't play that well (no drops, sits under storms), but FBH still loses
Game 600, played a week later Most of the same. Terran was not very good (compared to pros), so hard to judge, as he had little pressure. Money issues on 3 base again, getting to 1000/500 at the 15 minute mark. Just before the 20 minute mark, he's at 1300/1300. He makes a bunch of HT after that to spend 1000 of that gas, but still has 4-digit minerals, just chillin', not being zealots, even though he's at 150 supply going zealot/archon. It's not a matter of not enough production, either, as the nexuses in his main, natural, and third are all sitting at 100 energy. He seems to be able to spend gas OR minerals, but not both.
He's not awful, but if this is the vaunted BW mechanics at work, then SC2 Proleague might be in trouble. He should've been chronoing those gateways and keeping his money down :|
Can't believe you try to analyze a random ladder replay like that in the way you did... hope you realize that it's completely and utterly useless to analyze a ladder replay as you did. Just letting you know, you wasted your time.
How so? Yes, players at a real game > players on the ladder, but this is generic mid-high masters.
On May 11 2012 02:00 rslee wrote: This has the potential for far less preferred matchups (ie: JvF) because when T8 plays KT, it's possible that Jaedong has to play SC2 and Flash has to play BW. I guess they can meet in the ace, but still..
This reminds me that the team strategy will be enhanced by the predictability of who is currently up to play which game on the other team.
Eg: We face SKT. Currently for them it's the BW turn to be played by Fantasy, Sun, Soo; and the SC2 turn to be played by Bisu, Best, Hyuk etc. Then the range of which players you expect to see in the BW Bo3 and in the SC2 Bo3 is halved compared to usual.
To be unpredictable you need a large team; about twice as large as usual. Small teams like T8 will always have very predictable rosters for each of the two Bo3s, with few opportunities for rotations in their scheme.
Eg2: If a team only has 6 players, they'll just end up alternating A1, A2, A3 on BW + B1, B2, B3 on SC2 ; B1, B2, B3 on BW + A1, A2, A3 on SC2. They literally won't have any other choice than to keep sending them this way.
On the bright side, this need for larger roster may push more of the usually neglected players to actually be used.
It's a good thing that they'll do 3 BW games in a row and then SC2. It'll be easier for me to just turn off the stream after the third set than keep an eye on the game in case they made Set 1 - BW, Set 2 - SC2, Set 3 - BW and so on.
I hate the fact that the ACE will be SC 2 but, in a way, it makes things easier for me for the same reasons stated above.
On May 11 2012 02:49 AirbladeOrange wrote: I didn't expect this. Awesome way to keep BW alive!
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but just in case, this is just a way to usurp the BW fans to the sc2 scene. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about BW, they just want money
On May 11 2012 02:49 AirbladeOrange wrote: I didn't expect this. Awesome way to keep BW alive!
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but just in case, this is just a way to usurp the BW fans to the sc2 scene. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about BW, they just want money
They haven't cared about BW for a long time. Shame on them for being a company tt
Slightly off topic but I really wish kespa could somehow snag Tasteless to help cast the BW games. I'm pretty excited to have some english cast games again even if the quality of play might go down.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Because of being fans of the players and not solely the game
yup and the most famous people (boxer nada) alrdy made the switch. so? didnt help SC2 that much either. was HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE when they first played but after that it all just went *meh* whatever.
On May 10 2012 17:00 BookTwo wrote: gg sc2, bw pros have ARRIVED
I would curb my optimism if I was you. Even Flash says it'll take months, or more likely years, for him to reach his SC1 level in SC2.
All RTS is not alike, and SC2 is a different animal. You're not gonna see any SC1 pros suddenly curb stomp current SC2 pros. That said, I'm looking forward to Anaheim very much ^.^
On May 10 2012 17:00 BookTwo wrote: gg sc2, bw pros have ARRIVED
I would curb my optimism if I was you. Even Flash says it'll take months, or more likely years, for him to reach his SC1 level in SC2.
All RTS is not alike, and SC2 is a different animal. You're not gonna see any SC1 pros suddenly curb stomp current SC2 pros. That said, I'm looking forward to Anaheim very much ^.^
On May 10 2012 17:14 Ruscour wrote: Fantasy stayed Terran! woooot
wonder if he will learn to play bio now
That made me laugh out loud.
Have to bring that one back big time. ^^
Anyway it's going to take a lot of time before you see any of that. HotS will help immensely.
What really baffles me is KeSPA was supposed to help bring more legitimacy to the scene in Korea and what did they do? They decided to go ahead with a nonsensical format. I wonder why the media didn't poke and prode for more answers.
On May 11 2012 03:03 cafaro wrote: I'm a bw fan, but this is just stupid imho...
Players will have to play *both* bw and sc2? I'd rather see them switch completely to sc2, or stay with bw for one more season.
Nevertheless, still interested in how the top bw players will do in sc2.
I guess it's to make sure that not only the players are warmed up, but the fans aswell. From what they're doing, which is pretty weird in a competitive stance, makes sense when considering that they need to make sure that the fans don't just stop watching.
lol @ dyenasty i knew someone would make that joke. i love both sc2 and bw equally, and i am torn about this format, i'm not sure how this'll play out...i hope itworks out better than we expect, because if it fails and it looks bad, it'll be terrible for proleague trying to get sponsors in the future, and i don't think ANYONE sc2 or BW fan wants that to happen. Korean successful market means successful market for the rest of the world imo. I think kespa needs to consult BoxeR and hire him as a liason, he understands probably better than anyone about what it takes to be both scbw and sc2 since his transition happened so quickly, and he knows a ton about management skills. Hopefully something like that comes about.
On May 11 2012 03:32 StarStruck wrote: That made me laugh out loud.
Have to bring that one back big time. ^^
Anyway it's going to take a lot of time before you see any of that. HotS will help immensely.
What really baffles me is KeSPA was supposed to help bring more legitimacy to the scene in Korea and what did they do? They decided to go ahead with a nonsensical format. I wonder why the media didn't poke and prode for more answers.
It's pretty obvious this format is just there to transition to SC2. I highly doubt it will run this way for more than one or two seasons. I mean imagine you're in their position (ie. you want to transition to SC2 but your fanbase still is BW) - this seems like the best way to go about it.
Actually a ton of Terran SC2 gamers have said the Mech is the better composition in TvT and even in sometimes in TvZ, but that it is too hard to pull off. Maybe these BW pros will be able to popularize it once they get more acquainted with SC2.
Unfortunately it's jsut not good vs. Protoss. Maybe HOTS will help. Battle hellions more beefy vs, zealots, Warhound (anti-mech) if it gets back in...
Also, KeSPA could use the English Client when HOTS comes out. Multi-language support is one of the HOTS features.
On May 11 2012 03:32 StarStruck wrote: That made me laugh out loud.
Have to bring that one back big time. ^^
Anyway it's going to take a lot of time before you see any of that. HotS will help immensely.
What really baffles me is KeSPA was supposed to help bring more legitimacy to the scene in Korea and what did they do? They decided to go ahead with a nonsensical format. I wonder why the media didn't poke and prode for more answers.
It's pretty obvious this format is just there to transition to SC2. I highly doubt it will run this way for more than one or two seasons. I mean imagine you're in their position (ie. you want to transition to SC2 but your fanbase still is BW) - this seems like the best way to go about it.
No it isn't. It's not the be all end all and there are certainly other methods they could have used as I've mentioned many times in several different threads. It's very short-sighted. The only good news is we will only have to deal with it for a season.
Seasons are long. But, when it's over. It will be over.
On May 11 2012 05:08 JustPassingBy wrote: Is there some kind of source where you can watch all the games?
It's been implied by TorcH, the OGN LoL caster, on State of the Game that they will have something like http://www.ognlol.com/ for foreigners. It hasn't been revealed yet AFAIK.
On May 11 2012 05:08 JustPassingBy wrote: Is there some kind of source where you can watch all the games?
It's been implied by TorcH, the OGN LoL caster, on State of the Game that they will have something like http://www.ognlol.com/ for foreigners. It hasn't been revealed yet AFAIK.
they said that the global stream won't be ready for opening day =(
On May 11 2012 05:00 pestilenz wrote: So.... Any words on Steams yet? Because I would really feel sad missing this! >O
This should also be a way for SC2 people to learn something about SC1 ^^
I hope you meant streams. SC1 players cannot stream due to their team contracts
His wording on "missing this" makes me think he means the event. And I assume since it's still OGN restreams will be welcome.
Yup. In either case, I actually hope the KeSPA teams go against the grain and decide not to showcase their players via stream and add more value in other ways. Players need to keep their mystique.
On May 11 2012 05:41 GenesisX wrote: holy shit hybrid? I thought they would have 2 different leagues dunno how I feel about this :/
That was always in the speculation man yet a lot of people kept missing it even though I amongst many others pointed it out many times (I did at least forty times). =/
On May 11 2012 05:44 Meth wrote: YALL READY FOR THIS?! (I personally am really sad that they are inevitably switching but what can ya do? Occupy Korea?)
Oh shiiiiiii-
I can't wait to the see the least popular team dominate ALL BECAUSE OF THE SC2 GAMES.
Are you talking about Stars? There are a handful of Stars fanboys or do you mean T8? Because those boys have been fooling around with it for quite some time. Hence their terribad results and they have plenty of fanboys.
I honestly don't know what you mean by least popular team. I mean aside from KT, SKT1 and CJ. The other teams are probably just as popular as any other. Even Air Force, so... I don't know where you're going with that.
On May 11 2012 05:08 JustPassingBy wrote: Is there some kind of source where you can watch all the games?
It's been implied by TorcH, the OGN LoL caster, on State of the Game that they will have something like http://www.ognlol.com/ for foreigners. It hasn't been revealed yet AFAIK.
they said that the global stream won't be ready for opening day =(
it's a good thing they made SC2 the ace match so that jaedong/flash/bisu aren't the automatic choice in every particular scenario available wherein they could play, but I feel this is going to be a awkward transition, nevertheless.
Also, with Rush in the last BW OSL, why is he switching to zerg for SC2?? It's going to make his preparation for the round of 16 all that much tougher by playing another race in another game. Though I would imagine it will help him in the long-term which should admittedly be his goal.
Beside the MLG and DreamHack tournaments by foreigners, SC2 really have no other stage tournament. Most of the 'esport exposure' is through people live streaming. I hope Kespa understands that.
Won't this break sc2? When the bw pros have had enough time to practice, there will be NO CHANCE for foreigners to even get a chance in GSL. If MLG's are dominated by only koreans, will the international community lose interest?
On May 11 2012 07:46 BookTwo wrote: Won't this break sc2? When the bw pros have had enough time to practice, there will be NO CHANCE for foreigners to even get a chance in GSL. If MLG's are dominated by only koreans, will the international community lose interest?
Yes, this has been planned by Kespa to destroy SC2.
On May 11 2012 07:46 BookTwo wrote: Won't this break sc2? When the bw pros have had enough time to practice, there will be NO CHANCE for foreigners to even get a chance in GSL. If MLG's are dominated by only koreans, will the international community lose interest?
Well just imagine the work ethnics and the hand eye co-ordination of MVP, MC, and Nestea. Well now you got 100 more of them. The ONLY thing that got me excited about this switch is that I can fucking cheer for Huk in the face of adversity for 'national pride' (the true North and Free shiz) but now I am not even so sure about that anymore. I guess I can go like "yeah my favourite guys are pwning scrubs from left and right. That just won't be satisfying enough...
On May 11 2012 07:26 Xiphos wrote: Beside the MLG and DreamHack tournaments by foreigners, SC2 really have no other stage tournament. Most of the 'esport exposure' is through people live streaming. I hope Kespa understands that.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments There's a lot more than just MLG and Dreamhack, even before adding in the bw pro switch. It's been common to have a major event every weekend, lack of content is not a problem.
There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore, few builds involve 1 basing, there's a good mix of macro games and punishing greed. Yes Colossus are boring, but most good 'toss use storm and archon these days anyway. And Terran often play mech. Saying things like "T always play bio and it's boring" shows that the commenter has outdated game knowledge.
Watch some GSL Code S, or the finals day of any MLG such as DRG vs MKP, the metagame is getting really good and will only improve with the added versatility HotS units will add. Yes the game isn't as mature as bw yet, but why not help it get there instead of bashing it?
Woo, this will be so exiting )). Hopefully we'll see a lot of creativeness due to great minds and players trying out new things in the new game, of course that hope might be unforfilled if people play it safe and pick strats from sc2 players, but we'll simply have to see!
On May 11 2012 07:26 Xiphos wrote: Beside the MLG and DreamHack tournaments by foreigners, SC2 really have no other stage tournament. Most of the 'esport exposure' is through people live streaming. I hope Kespa understands that.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments There's a lot more than just MLG and Dreamhack, even before adding in the bw pro switch. It's been common to have a major event every weekend, lack of content is not a problem.
There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore, few builds involve 1 basing, there's a good mix of macro games and punishing greed. Yes Colossus are boring, but most good 'toss use storm and archon these days anyway. And Terran often play mech. Saying things like "T always play bio and it's boring" shows that the commenter has outdated game knowledge.
Watch some GSL Code S, or the finals day of any MLG such as DRG vs MKP, the metagame is getting really good and will only improve with the added versatility HotS units will add. Yes the game isn't as mature as bw yet, but why not help it get there instead of bashing it?
On May 11 2012 07:26 Xiphos wrote: Beside the MLG and DreamHack tournaments by foreigners, SC2 really have no other stage tournament. Most of the 'esport exposure' is through people live streaming. I hope Kespa understands that.
I get that you're not a SC2 fan and all but seriously don't make uneducated statements just to hate on a game you don't like. There are streamed/casted LANs pretty much every weekend and major live tournaments at least twice a month. SC2 doesn't suffer from a lack of live events.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 3?
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Did you just say MVP vs Parting was deathball vs deathball?
On May 11 2012 07:26 Xiphos wrote: Beside the MLG and DreamHack tournaments by foreigners, SC2 really have no other stage tournament. Most of the 'esport exposure' is through people live streaming. I hope Kespa understands that.
Individual Leagues GSL (I presume you're just not counting this for some reason?) MLG Dreamhack NASL IPL Iron Squid Assembly Homestory Cup IEM
Team league GSTL NASTL IPTL/IGN TAC KSL
If anything, SC2 has too many tournaments, more than the scene can support.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Did you just say MVP vs Parting was deathball vs deathball?
I was just calling out his statement that MVP vs Parting was series of deathball vs deathball which is entirely false, I don't mind the SC2 hate but I dislike people blantantly making stuff up to justify their hate.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Because of being fans of the players and not solely the game
SC2 is basically a different game. It's like saying all the BW pros switch to DoTA/LoL. Are you going to watch them then just because you're a fan of them? Same logic. Some people like the games, then the players.
On May 11 2012 01:24 huehuehuehue wrote: Mvp's thoughts on this: + Show Spoiler +
As Kespa enters the Starcraft 2 scene, fans are already hyping up the match between you and Flash.
It will be fun to play against him. However, I’ve seen recent articles about Starcraft 1-Starcraft 2 running in parallel. Frankly, the two games running in parallel is too hard on progamers. I’ve played Starcraft 1 from time to time as a Starcraft 2 gamer and it feels way too different. I regret the fact that Starcraft 1 gamers have to play two games at once. I think the people who decided this were too selfish. They didn’t consider the players at all.
This is true, yet BW pros doesn't seem to whine about it at all so far. We'll what will happen, but I think that it will only slow their progress in SC2 and make them maybe a little, little bit worse in BW.
Only good from this decision is that the BW community will have a smoother switch to SC2, so the game will gain much, much more fans. With a crowd of BW fans joining the SC2 community, we might finally get at ahead of LoL in viewer numbers :D
What makes you think BW fans are going to watch SC2?
Because of being fans of the players and not solely the game
SC2 is basically a different game. It's like saying all the BW pros switch to DoTA/LoL. Are you going to watch them then just because you're a fan of them? Same logic. Some people like the games, then the players.
Of course, some people like the game before the players, but then again, some other people like the players/teams, then the games.
KeSPA is basically making a huge gamble in assuming that enough people are fans of the players and teams first to make this entire endeavor sustainable in the long run. It is entirely possible that they might be right, but it is also likely that they could also be wrong.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
I watched GSL every night from the opening match up to the Genius vs Dongraegu finals. My enjoyment of the game was going down over time, not increasing. I didn't really care that people were getting better at the game because it still wasn't exciting and I honestly don't ever see it becoming excitng.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
I watched GSL every night from the opening match up to the Genius vs Dongraegu finals. My enjoyment of the game was going down over time, not increasing. I didn't really care that people were getting better at the game because it still wasn't exciting and I honestly don't ever see it becoming excitng.
On May 11 2012 05:08 JustPassingBy wrote: Is there some kind of source where you can watch all the games?
It's been implied by TorcH, the OGN LoL caster, on State of the Game that they will have something like http://www.ognlol.com/ for foreigners. It hasn't been revealed yet AFAIK.
they said that the global stream won't be ready for opening day =(
On May 11 2012 05:08 JustPassingBy wrote: Is there some kind of source where you can watch all the games?
It's been implied by TorcH, the OGN LoL caster, on State of the Game that they will have something like http://www.ognlol.com/ for foreigners. It hasn't been revealed yet AFAIK.
they said that the global stream won't be ready for opening day =(
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
I watched GSL every night from the opening match up to the Genius vs Dongraegu finals. My enjoyment of the game was going down over time, not increasing. I didn't really care that people were getting better at the game because it still wasn't exciting and I honestly don't ever see it becoming excitng.
I don't agree, but that's reasonable.
I find the play gradually getting better, but yeah I think I've definitely been a little too overexposed to the game. Now I'm taking smaller doses over time and it isn't so bad.
The Korean casters add so much energy and it's actually a great way to learn Korean. Blind nailed it.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
The games are honestly nothing alike when you get down to the nitty gritty and if you're talking about last PL or the current OSL. The games have been sloppy and dreadful to watch.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
The reason you see mistakes like that happening in the lower level pros (we call them B-teamers) is because BW is exponentially more difficult to multi-task and manage your armies while marcoing and balancing your economy. A mistake like that being made in sc2 should only happen in the regular-level mineral-league players. In BW, everybody looks incredibly sloppy and bad until A-level progamer.
BW cheese at the pro level is almost non-existent. You can count an entire year's "cheese" games from the large public tournaments on 1 hand, sc2 its actually a decent %. The "one-in-a-million-EPIC" games actually happen quite often in BW. In fact you can expect about half the sets played in any given team vs team match or even BoX sets in the individual leagues to be "one-in-a-million-EPIC". sc2 it might be actually one-in-a-million while in BW it will be more like two-in-five-EPIC. If you had been watching vast amounts of BW you would know this from keeping up with the LR threads constantly since we often voted on how we thought the game was in terms of watchability so if you missed it, you could skip the crappy sets and just watch the good ones.
Serious question: and someone MUST have posted this (have only read the first few pages thus far):
Where do LR threads go? Do they stay in the BW section becaue BW is still included in the format? I sure hope so. But maybe the TL mods will create a new forum: KESPA league, or something.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
On May 11 2012 11:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Serious question: and someone MUST have posted this (have only read the first few pages thus far):
Where do LR threads go? Do they stay in the BW section becaue BW is still included in the format? I sure hope so. But maybe the TL mods will create a new forum: KESPA league, or something.
I'm about 99% sure that there will be a LR thread in both forums. Otherwise you'd have massive problems. Moderators would live and die.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
This question will be answered after this season is over. Just count how many progamers retire in september/october.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
The reason you see mistakes like that happening in the lower level pros (we call them B-teamers) is because BW is exponentially more difficult to multi-task and manage your armies while marcoing and balancing your economy. A mistake like that being made in sc2 should only happen in the regular-level mineral-league players. In BW, everybody looks incredibly sloppy and bad until A-level progamer.
BW cheese at the pro level is almost non-existent. You can count an entire year's "cheese" games from the large public tournaments on 1 hand, sc2 its actually a decent %. The "one-in-a-million-EPIC" games actually happen quite often in BW. In fact you can expect about half the sets played in any given team vs team match or even BoX sets in the individual leagues to be "one-in-a-million-EPIC". sc2 it might be actually one-in-a-million while in BW it will be more like two-in-five-EPIC. If you had been watching vast amounts of BW you would know this from keeping up with the LR threads constantly since we often voted on how we thought the game was in terms of watchability so if you missed it, you could skip the crappy sets and just watch the good ones.
I'm sure you're right, but that's just not been my experience.
I also understand that BW is physically more difficult to play, but there comes a time where you can't blame every mistake on that sort of thing. If I have to keep reminding myself of 12-unit control groups every second in order to be impressed with the game, then that's not necessarily a good viewing experience for me. The argument can be turned around a bit, too. For example, if SC2 can let you be lazy with control groups and whatnot, it's really impressive when someone like MarineKing ('who's bio control is a tier above anyone else's right now) puts in so much effort to meticulously control his units. He shows that micro can be rewarded handsomely in SC2. He's also been so consistently GREAT for two years that he shows, along with MVP, MC, and some others, that SC2 rewards skill and is not some dice-roll like some believe.
Anyway, I'm sort of going off topic. I guess it comes down to just enjoying whatever game you started out with and understand most deeply. I still don't see one being objectively better than the other.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
I think it'll be apparent pretty quick. The ones who don't like SC2 will probably wash out of it, a la Idra, because they can't get into it enough.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
Yeah, and isn't SoO retired?
idk o.o he's still playing in the OSL (not sure if its the correct soo)
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
Yeah, and isn't SoO retired?
idk o.o he's still playing in the OSL (not sure if its the correct soo)
There is the SKTZerg SoO and the STX Protoss soo. He stx one is the one retired, and the facebook post is probably from Zerg SoO.
On May 11 2012 11:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Serious question: and someone MUST have posted this (have only read the first few pages thus far):
Where do LR threads go? Do they stay in the BW section becaue BW is still included in the format? I sure hope so. But maybe the TL mods will create a new forum: KESPA league, or something.
On May 11 2012 11:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Serious question: and someone MUST have posted this (have only read the first few pages thus far):
Where do LR threads go? Do they stay in the BW section becaue BW is still included in the format? I sure hope so. But maybe the TL mods will create a new forum: KESPA league, or something.
half'n half
BW side in BW
SC2 side in SC2
I'd say we mash them up. The LEAST the mod can do is to grant me LR hilarities. TL is my source for entertainment and I would really love some refreshing experience.
On May 11 2012 11:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Serious question: and someone MUST have posted this (have only read the first few pages thus far):
Where do LR threads go? Do they stay in the BW section becaue BW is still included in the format? I sure hope so. But maybe the TL mods will create a new forum: KESPA league, or something.
half'n half
BW side in BW
SC2 side in SC2
Such an idea won't really work, but if the go with it, the SC2 thread MUST indicate in bold bold letters what happened in the BW half, otherwise they would not know whether or not an ACE match would be played if so-and-so won, or WHY an ace match is being played. The whole thing seems messy. Also, the "pointless" arguing of BW vs SC2 shouldn't be outright banned. People should be punished for saying stupid things, yes, and they will, but I've read on here numerous and valid comparisons between the two games, both in favor of BW and of SC2. I mean this is SC1 AND SC2: seems like the most logical time to make a comparison between two games, right? Halo 1 vs Halo 2, Ocarina of Time vs Majora's Mask, that kind of shit.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
If they can get rid of the deathball issue, BW players will be at least a little more comfortable with SC2. But Dustin stated it many times (korean interview, GDC2011, Blizzcon2011) that they are not gonna change the deathball, because pathing in SC2 is good, awesome, and perfect.
Dustin simple doesn't understand that you can have good pathing and no deathball at the same time. Sign.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
The reason you see mistakes like that happening in the lower level pros (we call them B-teamers) is because BW is exponentially more difficult to multi-task and manage your armies while marcoing and balancing your economy. A mistake like that being made in sc2 should only happen in the regular-level mineral-league players. In BW, everybody looks incredibly sloppy and bad until A-level progamer.
BW cheese at the pro level is almost non-existent. You can count an entire year's "cheese" games from the large public tournaments on 1 hand, sc2 its actually a decent %. The "one-in-a-million-EPIC" games actually happen quite often in BW. In fact you can expect about half the sets played in any given team vs team match or even BoX sets in the individual leagues to be "one-in-a-million-EPIC". sc2 it might be actually one-in-a-million while in BW it will be more like two-in-five-EPIC. If you had been watching vast amounts of BW you would know this from keeping up with the LR threads constantly since we often voted on how we thought the game was in terms of watchability so if you missed it, you could skip the crappy sets and just watch the good ones.
I'm sure you're right, but that's just not been my experience.
I also understand that BW is physically more difficult to play, but there comes a time where you can't blame every mistake on that sort of thing. If I have to keep reminding myself of 12-unit control groups every second in order to be impressed with the game, then that's not necessarily a good viewing experience for me. The argument can be turned around a bit, too. For example, if SC2 can let you be lazy with control groups and whatnot, it's really impressive when someone like MarineKing ('who's bio control is a tier above anyone else's right now) puts in so much effort to meticulously control his units. He shows that micro can be rewarded handsomely in SC2. He's also been so consistently GREAT for two years that he shows, along with MVP, MC, and some others, that SC2 rewards skill and is not some dice-roll like some believe.
Anyway, I'm sort of going off topic. I guess it comes down to just enjoying whatever game you started out with and understand most deeply. I still don't see one being objectively better than the other.
It's one way to say that the game sucks because it has 12 unit control I guess. For me, the very sight of an army moving across the map smoothly raises excitement because I know how freaking hard it actually is. I can look at BW pros and say "How the fuck does he do that all that" a lot. In SC2 only select players like MKP give out that feeling, and it's not nearly as often.
Also, while MKP's mechanics seem great, but he was absolutely nobody in BW. I remember watching that infamous game at the GSTL finals, he was dodging storms like a boss but his money still went up to 1k+. MVP, a A-teamer, dominated MKP thoroughly in SC2 for a reason. None of them were as consistently great, MKP looked half dead during the second half of 2011, and MVP went down to code A.
EDIT: That's not to say they suck or that SC2 requires no skill. The level of play is rising and I'm still interested. I still play it too. It's just that BW has more going for it IMO.
The day after the GSTL finals, I watched the Proleague finals vods, and I can't even remember why I ever bothered to watch GSTL last night instead.
Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW.
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc?
It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites.
On May 11 2012 13:15 Gosi wrote: Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW.
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc?
It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites.
lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
If they can get rid of the deathball issue, BW players will be at least a little more comfortable with SC2. But Dustin stated it many times (korean interview, GDC2011, Blizzcon2011) that they are not gonna change the deathball, because pathing in SC2 is good, awesome, and perfect.
Dustin simple doesn't understand that you can have good pathing and no deathball at the same time. Sign.
This is a flat-out lie. One of the main goals of HotS was to get rid of it. The stated rationale of units like the oracle and the (now cut) shredder is to use up supply in units that aren't useful in a battle, thus replacing big deathballs with smaller engagements with smaller armies, where micro will matter more. He does refuse to break the pathfinding, but he does understand you can have pathfinding and no deathballs, because he's actively trying.
(This is the infamous "If you like BW, play BW" interview. Skip to 11 for the deathball question)
Browder: We are looking to pull food out of those balls, as much as possible, which is the motivation for the shredder in the first place. We're trying to pull some of the food out of those balls, and create some more different small-scale tactics that happen across the map even in the endgame. We get some of that with Terran drops now, which is really nice. But, we'd love to pull some of that food out. The oracle's probably going to pull some of that food out. [...] So, if we find a solution, and if we can do stuff by creating units that are designed to be used elsewhere, then we'll do that.
I mean, hate SC2 all you like, but be honest about it. He refused to break the pathfinding because people were explicitly asking him to do exactly that to make SC2 more like BW.
Increasing unit size and reducing range can help with the deathballs. I also made a mod where groups of units spread out quite a bit when moved, which feels really good but doesn't work very well with larger armies.
Of course encouraging smaller engagements in general with fewer units helps a lot, too, and that's what HOTS and FRB are going towards, in theory.
I think mostly Blizzard is just slow at doing things, and might be afraid of making drastic changes to the game.
Anyways, I guess I might watch some of these matches. I'm curious, anyway, how good the players are at SC2. I enjoyed watching ForGG and Hyun play post-switch a fair bit, it's kind of refreshing and interesting. But generally the game-quality will probably be pretty bad.
It's not just the deathball and pathing thing that is the problem for me. It's reactors, larva injects and warpgate+chronoboost that makes the gameplay so fast paced that it doesn't allow comebacks. It also leads to way to much "army dancing" back and forth because if you lose the fight you may not be able to re-produce fast enough and just lose. And some dumb unit designs that doesn't offer any micro at all. And the lack of zone control and defenders advantage is a big problem too. Blizzard are trying to fix that to HotS I think, but the units they have come up with are so dumb. To proud to even port a BW lurker so they make their own wannabe-lurker that is like the lamest thing I've seen.
And the beauty with watching BW or just any professional sport is seeing those guys doing things you could only dream about doing yourself. In SC2 there is no hype at all when someone is spamming storms and the casters goes "OMG SICK STOOORMS!!!!!!" when everyone that watches that game could land the exact same storms because of smartcasting. The same thing with "BEAUTIFUL FORCE FIELDS!!!" and "BEAUTIFUL FUNGALS!!" that everyone can do by just pressing one button and spam mouse 1. The last 2 spells are also lame as fuck because they shut down micro in a way it shouldn't in Starcraft or RTS in general. ~_~
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
If they can get rid of the deathball issue, BW players will be at least a little more comfortable with SC2. But Dustin stated it many times (korean interview, GDC2011, Blizzcon2011) that they are not gonna change the deathball, because pathing in SC2 is good, awesome, and perfect.
Dustin simple doesn't understand that you can have good pathing and no deathball at the same time. Sign.
This is a flat-out lie. One of the main goals of HotS was to get rid of it. The stated rationale of units like the oracle and the (now cut) shredder is to use up supply in units that aren't useful in a battle, thus replacing big deathballs with smaller engagements with smaller armies, where micro will matter more. He does refuse to break the pathfinding, but he does understand you can have pathfinding and no deathballs, because he's actively trying.
Browder: We are looking to pull food out of those balls, as much as possible, which is the motivation for the shredder in the first place. We're trying to pull some of the food out of those balls, and create some more different small-scale tactics that happen across the map even in the endgame. We get some of that with Terran drops now, which is really nice. But, we'd love to pull some of that food out. The oracle's probably going to pull some of that food out. [...] So, if we find a solution, and if we can do stuff by creating units that are designed to be used elsewhere, then we'll do that.
I mean, hate SC2 all you like, but be honest about it. He refused to break the pathfinding because people were explicitly asking him to do exactly that to make SC2 more like BW.
I know most of the new HOTS units are designed to address the deathball issue. But whether they will work as Dustin intended is something to be seen in the future. I am a little pessimistic about those new units' ability to reduce deathball phenomena. Shredder is cut. And now do you think we can rely on just two units (oracle and viper) to fulfill the overwhelmingly difficult task of reducing the deathball phenomena? I can't be very optimistic about this. In today's matchup, storm is strong enough to make terran players call protoss OP late-game. Even though, terran is still going MMM deathball against the powerful storm. The pathing mechanic to produce deathball is just too fundamental that in the unit level you can't easily change it.
More fundamentally, there are still some other ways to address the deathball issue without breaking the pathing system. For example, (1) increasing the collision radius of some units. Just some units not all. Or, (2) keeping unit's original formation when moving (actually, in SC2, if you select less than 13 units, they will stay in the original formation when moving to locations outside their group area.) In this way, units will still clump up when there are narrow chokes, but in the wide open field they will be a little bit more spreadout. The differences are in fact small, so people don't need to worry about new balance issues like "fxxx, AOE will not work anymore". But I don't see these changes coming because as I said Dustin will not understand and consider these two options to address the deathball issue.
At the end BW players will suffer from that, at least for the moment.
On May 11 2012 14:00 Gosi wrote: It's not just the deathball and pathing thing that is the problem for me. It's reactors, larva injects and warpgate+chronoboost that makes the gameplay so fast paced that it doesn't allow comebacks. It also leads to way to much "army dancing" back and forth because if you lose the fight you may not be able to re-produce fast enough and just lose. And some dumb unit designs that doesn't offer any micro at all. And the lack of zone control and defenders advantage is a big problem too. Blizzard are trying to fix that to HotS I think, but the units they have come up with are so dumb. To proud to even port a BW lurker so they make their own wannabe-lurker that is like the lamest thing I've seen.
And the beauty with watching BW or just any professional sport is seeing those guys doing things you could only dream about doing yourself. In SC2 there is no hype at all when someone is spamming storms and the casters goes "OMG SICK STOOORMS!!!!!!" when everyone that watches that game could land the exact same storms because of smartcasting. The same thing with "BEAUTIFUL FORCE FIELDS!!!" and "BEAUTIFUL FUNGALS!!" that everyone can do by just pressing one button and spam mouse 1. The last 2 spells are also lame as fuck because they shut down micro in a way it shouldn't in Starcraft or RTS in general. ~_~
This is a very good point. I also feel the same that comeback is more likely in SC1 and the progress for victory is slower in BW.
On May 10 2012 23:22 Doodsmack wrote: I have a strong feeling, especially after reading flash and storks comments, that there won't be domination by BW pros. It will be all about how much you've practiced SC2. Can't wait to say I told you so to the SC2 haters .
If you had any common sense you would notice they are practicing two games at once lol.
On May 11 2012 13:15 Gosi wrote: Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW.
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc?
It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites.
lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect.
Surprising no one, KeSPA and MLG have signed a multi-year partnership. BW pros will be coming to California to play an exhibition tournament in SC2. So, if you want some autographs, and you live near Anaheim, you might as well. Or if you want to do some kind of pro-BW protest.
Yikes, the results of this could be less than flattering.
Quality of games of both will not neccessarily be that high, though of course, the cynic in me feels that the vast majority of training time will be devoted to SC2 (Its obviously going to be the future, for better or worse), and much of the BW stuff is going to be pale in comparison to what it used to be, though we can already sorta see the signs.
On May 11 2012 13:15 Gosi wrote: Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW.
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc?
It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites.
lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect.
Practically every thread these days is dominated by these types of people. Its really the majority of sc2 people that do this. They can't even tell when coaches and players are simply saying these things for PR. All these positive statements are complete 180s from what they were saying just weeks earlier.
On another point, I think that the only way BW people are going to feel like sc2 has any skill to it is if they redesign how the "auto-pilot" units work so you have to actually multi-task them and to encourage unit compositions and tech paths that pretty much FORCE you to manage multiple engagements that all require specific micro that makes a huge difference in if you win that engagement or not. More engagements, more micro, smaller numbers of units in each engagement. That's how you reward multi-tasking skill which is what they claim they're going for.
Surprising no one, KeSPA and MLG have signed a multi-year partnership. BW pros will be coming to California to play an exhibition tournament in SC2. So, if you want some autographs, and you live near Anaheim, you might as well. Or if you want to do some kind of pro-BW protest.
if A teamers keep flying out to MLGs and shit, then B teamers will get to play in PL.....The bad news the quality of games will still be bad in PL.
On May 11 2012 13:15 Gosi wrote: Anyone else getting tired of the "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???" and things like other BW progamers saying it's fun and sc2 fans rub it in your face? First of all, I don't think they really can afford going out and say that SC2 is boring and shit in a public statement right now so they are probably just trying to be PC. Now, I don't doubt that Flash and others may like playing a new game - a new challenge. But SC2 being fun to play does not equal SC2 being fun and exciting to watch. Definitely compared to BW.
I don't know why so many "only-sc2" fans are so obsessed with having the approval of Flash and the likes. In their world SC2 is already the the best game in the world and ESPORTS!!!!! and BW is this old shit game with only hard mechanics and ugly graphics and they probably have never even seen more than 1 Flash or Jaedong game, or even a game of KeSPA BW.. Are they afraid of something? Why are they so passive aggressive and tries to justify Flash's words into saying that we BW fans are wrong about SC2 and that it is not lacking in gameplay at all compared to BW etc?
It was just something that made me annoyed while I was lurking yesterday and reading TL, Reddit and other sites.
lol, they actually say that xD? I mean, i saw the posts of "flash is practicing, and he is enjoying it", and maybe they want to show the world about it, but i didn't read something like "See, even Flash said he loves the game, what now BW elitists???". If that's true, then i don't know what else to expect.
Practically every thread these days is dominated by these types of people. Its really the majority of sc2 people that do this. They can't even tell when coaches and players are simply saying these things for PR. All these positive statements are complete 180s from what they were saying just weeks earlier.
I don't think you can trust what they're saying now OR what they were saying then.
On another point, I think that the only way BW people are going to feel like sc2 has any skill to it is if they redesign how the "auto-pilot" units work so you have to actually multi-task them and to encourage unit compositions and tech paths that pretty much FORCE you to manage multiple engagements that all require specific micro that makes a huge difference in if you win that engagement or not. More engagements, more micro, smaller numbers of units in each engagement. That's how you reward multi-tasking skill which is what they claim they're going for.
There's a Terran named Gumiho who plays TvZ by dropping about three more places at once then he can manage (literally flying dropships into spores, sometimes), on the theory that if he botches a drop, he loses the drop, and if the Zerg botches a drop defense, he loses a hatch. It's a pretty neat style, because it has action all over the map all game. I wish SC2 had more of that.
Surprising no one, KeSPA and MLG have signed a multi-year partnership. BW pros will be coming to California to play an exhibition tournament in SC2. So, if you want some autographs, and you live near Anaheim, you might as well. Or if you want to do some kind of pro-BW protest.
if A teamers keep flying out to MLGs and shit, then B teamers will get to play in PL.....The bad news the quality of games will still be bad in PL.
Maybe this partnership would mean better scheduling between MLG and KeSPA events, possibly avoiding the biggest conflicts. And there is that vague wording about "exclusivity" which may or may not mean something.
Plus, maybe Koreans will still focus on Korean tournaments first. FXOBoSs relased a blog a few months back where he talked about how he would have to heavily cut down on his team's participation in foreign events once the GOM teams enter Proleague and have to deal with its busy schedule, not to mention the possible SC2 individual league that OGN is planning on having soon after OSL.
What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
This question will be answered after this season is over. Just count how many progamers retire in september/october.
This is going to be a make-or-break season for several high-profile veterans. Sea, Free, Hyuk etc.
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
What are you gonna do with millions of fans of BW in Korea?
@Ryo ye, im having a bad thoughts that many favorite faces will either retire or look like yellow playing sc2 (only for exposure and money just to grab any better deal and leave it). And i pray Stork/JB is not one of them...
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
What are you gonna do with millions of fans of BW in Korea?
@Ryo ye, im having a bad thoughts that many favorite faces will either retire or look like yellow playing sc2 (only for exposure and money just to grab any better deal and leave it). And i pray Stork/JB is not one of them...
I have a feeling Stork kinda just wants to cement himself in the record books (hand printing, most OSL qualifications) and then just retire.
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
What are you gonna do with millions of fans of BW in Korea?
@Ryo ye, im having a bad thoughts that many favorite faces will either retire or look like yellow playing sc2 (only for exposure and money just to grab any better deal and leave it). And i pray Stork/JB is not one of them...
What to do with millions fans of BW? Obviously fuck them, that's what they did if you did not see it...Nobody cares about the fans, all they are trying to do here is to convert some bw fans into SC2. Well i hope many of us will not fall for the cheap trick and leave with dignity.
Everybody said that bw and sc2 are two absolutely different games when advocating SC2 and suddenly they merged into one league.
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
What are you gonna do with millions of fans of BW in Korea?
@Ryo ye, im having a bad thoughts that many favorite faces will either retire or look like yellow playing sc2 (only for exposure and money just to grab any better deal and leave it). And i pray Stork/JB is not one of them...
I have a feeling Stork kinda just wants to cement himself in the record books (hand printing, most OSL qualifications) and then just retire.
Well, on the other side of the coin, some would have retired if they had to keep playing BW (according to Stars Coach Lee).
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
What are you gonna do with millions of fans of BW in Korea?
@Ryo ye, im having a bad thoughts that many favorite faces will either retire or look like yellow playing sc2 (only for exposure and money just to grab any better deal and leave it). And i pray Stork/JB is not one of them...
What to do with millions fans of BW? Obviously fuck them, that's what they did if you did not see it...Nobody cares about the fans, all they are trying to do here is to convert some bw fans into SC2. Well i hope many of us will not fall for the cheap trick and leave with dignity.
It occurs to me that a lot of people in BW don't actually have that option.
If BW has to go out, then this the best things for the players, because it gives them a chance to transition into a different game and have jobs. I don't know how many B-teamers want to go down with the BW ship if it means being a janitor for the rest of their life because they don't have proper educations. SC2 is Nada's way of paying for college, for instance. It allows the players and casters and coaches to transition and let them get away with being bad at SC2 for a while.
Yeah, a clean break would produce better games, but it'd also make it a lot harder. There's more to this than "my game has a bigger dick than your game"; people's lives are being altered by this decision. KeSPA (uncharacteristically?) seems to be taking that into consideration, which is the only nice thing to say about this format.
The Emperor: 'In to ensure the security and continuing stability, the proleague has been reorganised into the FIRST MIXED PROLEAGUE! For a safe and secure ESPORTS!'
*applause*
Padme: 'So this is how BW dies.... with thunderous applause'
This is a sad day. I like SC2, but I love BW. The difference? I can wake up in crazy early hours to watch a BW match, I'll watch a stream of SC2 if I'm really bored.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
1. Terrible for the players, who have to take to high hurdles at the same time, getting confused. Also they will lose their godlike play for only mid-good play in both games.
2. Terrible for the fans, because the players will suffer and games of BW and SC2 will be at low quality (compared to what we are used to know in bw).
Combined, this is the most terrible thing that could happen to an esport community...
I think a better way to go about the switch would be to hold one last epic BW league. Hype it up as the tournament to end all tournaments, the end of BW. Even some sc2 fans would tune in for this and be introduced to the players. Then have a long break before they start the sc2 leagues to give the players enough time to practice in a focused way.
It's still gonna be interesting to see these guys playing sc2 but the format seems half-assed.
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
your comparison is kinda bad, it would more like having rugby league and rugby union play together which ain't to bad,
but yea switching over completely would be more fair for the players and produce better games , but they want to give the current BW fans an experience of sc2 to maybe keep them watching in the future, if they just dropped everything and switched right now, the BW fans would go ape shit and never watch , maybe with the 50/50 league some , obviously not all, might stick with sc2
On May 11 2012 17:00 Ricjames wrote: What a fucking joke... Seriously, there is no more dignity. If they want to switch, they should at least do it right and not go bo3 BW and bo3 SC2. I mean it's a really good idea to make the players as confused as possible to make them practice 100% both games. SC2 ACE match - rly? I am not part of this charade anymore. Why not make soccer players play some ice hockey too....
Better yet, make hockey players play curling. ;p It also has sticks and a sort of puck.
On May 11 2012 08:51 GeLaar wrote: Forcing my favourite players to switch to SC2 does not force me to watch SC2.
I'm not saying that BW professionals have been dying to jump onboard the SC2 train, but there's a problem with attempting to discern their personal opinion. A BW pro is either unsuccessful enough with the game that they barely make a living serving as a practice partner to more prominent players or so successful that they actually get paid something and are bound by their contracts.
The ones who are still in it have their public communications and interviews scripted for them by KeSPA. Have you noticed none of the players have said anything negative about the SC2 switch? There's got to be at least one soul unhappy with it. Not all of them mayhaps but at least one, right?
I find it hard to believe a claim such as "my favorite players are being forced" when you can't know that. They'd have to be allowed to speak for themselves for us to know that. Maybe some of them were looking to try something new or looking for an excuse to retire and pursue a career. Or maybe we can just look into Flash's puppy brown eyes and see the anguish. Feel it.
Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
This question will be answered after this season is over. Just count how many progamers retire in september/october.
This is going to be a make-or-break season for several high-profile veterans. Sea, Free, Hyuk etc.
I want to see if Stork decides to play LoL instead. O;
Last few pages I've been hearing all these reasons why BW people think SC2 is not as good. People say it's about all these random things like deathballs or macro mechanics or whatever.
Let's just face it. The reason we all know it sucks is because it's boring as hell.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
Say what!!? I know it's May atm, not April. Mixing both in a best of 7, with ace being SCII, equal me not liking it. I do enjoy watching SC and SCII, separately. But I will watch this train wreck to see if there're survivors, of course.
Q: Will you have separate casters for SC1 and 2? A: The casters will be the same, but we will try new combinations. We will make an announcement on the 15th. Btw, we're using the same four casters.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
I actually watched the series an it was very intense...for a starcraft 2 match. Sorry, I watch both games a lot and the difference in intensity and overall action and level of gameplay is huge.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
I actually watched the series an it was very intense...for a starcraft 2 match. Sorry, I watch both games a lot and the difference in intensity and overall action and level of gameplay is huge.
I dunno, I still think it's due to the hype factor ingrained into BW fans. It's like saying watching a Brazilian soccer final with hardcore rabid fans vs. watching Europa cup finals, where the quality of play may be similar or even better, but people don't care as much.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
I actually watched the series an it was very intense...for a starcraft 2 match. Sorry, I watch both games a lot and the difference in intensity and overall action and level of gameplay is huge.
I dunno, I still think it's due to the hype factor ingrained into BW fans. It's like saying watching a Brazilian soccer final with hardcore rabid fans vs. watching Europa cup finals, where the quality of play may be similar or even better, but people don't care as much.
Well, yeah. Things are more interesting when you're interested in them. That's almost tautological.
The upcoming GSL finals (spoilers, though it's been over 24 hours and it's on the front page) feature a guy with three GSL golds and a Silver, who hasn't won much of anything in nearly 8 months, against a potential Royal Roader (the first in GSL history, not counting the original GSL) on a 14 game winning steak. That's a really interesting story. What's more, it's a Bo7 TvP, a matchup that has been the subject of balance debates lately, where Terran (once a dominant race for months of GomTvTvT). It's old vs new in really every way. Old player versus young player. Established name vs upstart. Previously dominant race against newly strong race. That makes it a lot more interesting than a normal SC2 game, but only if you care about those things.
Likewise, Jangbi vs Fantasy in the OSL finals was way more than just an OSL finals. It was the Legend of the Fall. The BW forum was REALLY excited about that, and it was infectious, and so many SC2 fans watched that series and it got talked about on State of the Game, pretty much solely because it was the Legend of the Fall and everyone was flipping out over it. Proleague finals didn't get that level of attention from the non BW forum world. Nothing close to it. (Even though it was the last BW Proleague ever. If people knew that at the time, probably more foreign views)
Hype is a HUGE part of both game's success. I think the SC2 side is more aware of this that the slightly hoity-toity BW side, with GOM running vignettes on all the players and making a serious effort to make us care about them individually. I have a friend who never watched either starcraft, but he's interested in MarineKing solely because of the "I'm in the Kong Line and that makes me ;_;" documentary they put out. It's true for both games, though.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
I actually watched the series an it was very intense...for a starcraft 2 match. Sorry, I watch both games a lot and the difference in intensity and overall action and level of gameplay is huge.
I dunno, I still think it's due to the hype factor ingrained into BW fans. It's like saying watching a Brazilian soccer final with hardcore rabid fans vs. watching Europa cup finals, where the quality of play may be similar or even better, but people don't care as much.
Your football analogy is so wrong that I had to reply just to say that, lol.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
I actually watched the series an it was very intense...for a starcraft 2 match. Sorry, I watch both games a lot and the difference in intensity and overall action and level of gameplay is huge.
I dunno, I still think it's due to the hype factor ingrained into BW fans. It's like saying watching a Brazilian soccer final with hardcore rabid fans vs. watching Europa cup finals, where the quality of play may be similar or even better, but people don't care as much.
Your football analogy is so wrong that I had to reply just to say that, lol.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
I think the wave of retirements that will inevitably come in several months will tell the real tale, especially once the transition is complete. Hopefully, the merge with the GOM teams will compensate for these retirements, but I think fans of both games will be saddened if big players start dropping out due to not being satisfied with SC2. And even if they don't retire, their dislike of SC2 may manifest itself in mediocre play. Heck, I look to Idra as an example, as he was arguably the most dominant foreigner of his time in BW, yet I think his rather public dislike for SC2 has affected his mentality and play to a point where that dominance is no longer true in SC2.
But that doesn't mean that some players will hate the game with a passion. From the recent interviews, Flash's insatiable thirst for competition will make him a dangerous force once he fully adapts. Then again, KeSPA is really good at regulating PR, so I don't trust absolutely everything, but I do feel that the thirst for competition will make at least some players look past the flaws in order to win.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
Yup, I can see both sides to the argument in SC2 being a new challenge for them and now they have to sell the game. In the other light they're being forced to play a new game, which creates more tension to deliver good results.
For some players it could be a welcome change considering they either cannot break into their team's PL rosters or they've been there done that.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You do realize that you have no clue right?
Enlighten me
Considering how ignorant you are and there have been posts and posts of discussion about it yet you decide not to search for yourself, how about no?
The other guy was right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to correlation between VOD accessibility and KeSPA transitioning to SC2.
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
Yup, I can see both sides to the argument in SC2 being a new challenge for them and now they have to sell the game. In the other light they're being forced to play a new game, which creates more tension to deliver good results.
For some players it could be a welcome change considering they either cannot break into their team's PL rosters or they've been there done that.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You do realize that you have no clue right?
Enlighten me
Considering how ignorant you are and there have been posts and posts of discussion about it yet you decide not to search for yourself, how about no?
The other guy was right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to correlation between VOD accessibility and KeSPA transitioning to SC2.
Why don't I know what I'm talking about? He said he didn't want to pay for VODs. Monetization of BW was one of the key areas of failure for the game. Please educate me if you think differently.
On May 12 2012 06:35 AttackZerg wrote: I tried to spend a night watching the 'best' sc2 players in current games.
Needlessly to say, the sc2 vod scene is horrible and I don't want to be stealing to watch great sc2 games.
Sorry, but vod sharing is why after the fall of broodwar.net why so many of us migrated to sites like teamliquid.
I won't be paying for an account for a game I haven't got to watch a lot of high level games.
There's plenty of free vods out there featuring the higher skilled players. Off the top of my head I know Assembly, MLG, IPL, Iron squid and IEM have vods from all their tournaments up. It's not the GSL but all of those tournaments have code S players in them and the quality of their play is not signifigantly different then when they play in the GSL. MMA, DRG, MC etc are either playing their best on a given day or they aren't, regardless of where they are.
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
Yup, I can see both sides to the argument in SC2 being a new challenge for them and now they have to sell the game. In the other light they're being forced to play a new game, which creates more tension to deliver good results.
For some players it could be a welcome change considering they either cannot break into their team's PL rosters or they've been there done that.
I like to focus more on the positives though. :D
On May 12 2012 05:39 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:35 rasers wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:27 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 04:08 slappy wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:45 TheButtonmen wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:22 slappy wrote:
On May 11 2012 23:19 kakaman wrote:
On May 11 2012 19:37 Elroi wrote: [quote] I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You do realize that you have no clue right?
Enlighten me
Considering how ignorant you are and there have been posts and posts of discussion about it yet you decide not to search for yourself, how about no?
The other guy was right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to correlation between VOD accessibility and KeSPA transitioning to SC2.
Why don't I know what I'm talking about? He said he didn't want to pay for VODs. Monetization of BW was one of the key areas of failure for the game. Please educate me if you think differently.
The key areas of failure were:
1. Savior match-fixing scandal.
2. Blizzard being dicks trying to get money out of the non-profit Korean BW scene (KeSPA is non-profit)/kill the BW scene to make way for SC2.
3. Foreigners sucking (this made it suck on the global scale, not in the Korean scene which didn't care and reached it's peak 10 years after game release).
The lack of monetization is what made BW prevalent in the first place, as people were able to play it for cheap in LAN cafes with LAN support and across multiple servers.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
On May 12 2012 06:35 AttackZerg wrote: I tried to spend a night watching the 'best' sc2 players in current games.
Needlessly to say, the sc2 vod scene is horrible and I don't want to be stealing to watch great sc2 games.
Sorry, but vod sharing is why after the fall of broodwar.net why so many of us migrated to sites like teamliquid.
I won't be paying for an account for a game I haven't got to watch a lot of high level games.
yeah one thing i want to add is that i can watch just about any BW game that was aired on TV (through TLPD) but I have yet to see a single Korean SC2 VOD. Watching VODs connect people to the game, without VODs i would never have liked bw to the point i did. One of the reasons why I have yet to connect with SC2
google "youku dongraegu mma"; no need to thank me. -or as 2 posts above suggests, just register free account on gomtv; you'll still get more than enough vods even for the GSL the vod for the first game in each series is free also, last time i checked and the three seasons in 2010 are now fully free too, afaik (though gameplay has changed a lot since then)
On May 12 2012 08:08 Jealous wrote: 2. Blizzard being dicks trying to get money out of the non-profit Korean BW scene (KeSPA is non-profit)/kill the BW scene to make way for SC2.
KeSPA might be non-profit but the forces that run it definitely aren't. Even if Blizzard were just trying to leech with that whole fiasco, there's a profit in there.
On May 12 2012 08:15 MrCon wrote: Only GSL has paid vod (live is free). 100% of the other tournaments have free vods I think.
That's correct. Some tournaments wait a little while, but eventually the vods become freely available. GSL vods are the only hold out.
On May 11 2012 08:09 Maldais wrote: There's a lot of hate on SC2 in this thread, some of the replies seem to show that people saw some sc2 in beta, didn't like it, and are still judging the game based on that. It's not deathball vs deathball anymore
Watch some GSL Code S
You mean like the MVP vs parting code S semifinal set 4?
Yes, because BW never has cheesy sets.
Parting has been playing very greedy, which has allowed P to have very strong late games. MVP punished him for that, it's the metagame evolving, the very thing that has always made starcraft an amazing dynamic game.
This comment is perfectly representative of what I see a lot of, trying to judge the entire game/community by a very small sample size. If a SC2 fan who had never watched BW before decided to give it a chance, saw two mediocre sets, and judged BW to be a terrible game based on that, what would you say? That is what you're doing to SC2.
This is kind of funny because that sort of happened to me. Although I watch BW when it's on (and I subscribe to certain Youtube channels catering to BW), I have to say my experience has culminated in the thought that "hmm, this is a lot like SC2!".
Some of the first full matches I saw were of players that I never heard of (i.e. they weren't Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc). One set I distinctly remember one player walking into siege tank fire needlessly and that immediately broke the aura that I had envisioned around BW. What I really do appreciate is the deep history and meta-game development that BW has. When looking at it that way, BW is so wonderful, but each individual game doesn't seem to have any more chance of being one of those "godly" type games than an SC2 game does.
Both games have short cheesy games, both games have timing attacks (and players that build their careers off of them), both have macro games, both have those one-in-a-million EPIC games. I can certainly understand how 'being there' through the history and development of BW must play a huge role in what so many are feeling now, but I really think the similarities of the games far outweigh their differences, at least from a spectator's point of view.
I don't want to sound rude, I am just honestly wondering this. Can you point out any games in sc2 that can match the excitement, the quality of game play and the incredible display of skill of, say, these two recent BW games:
I understand that this is extremely subjective. But I am sincerely wondering because I have been watching some SC2 tornaments (especially when Stephano is playing because he looks very talented) and I haven't seen any games that are even close to being this good. This can be because the game just doesn't suit my subejctive preferenses or it could be that I just haven't been lucky when watching SC2.
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Blizzard doesn't charge for VOD access, GOM does. They're kind of unique in that regard.
Here's a random NASL VOD. It's not really an "epic" game. In fact, the player who gged literally did so out of boredom, so I think it's actually a good example of one of the worst sides of SC2, and one of the problems people don't actually talk about much
(This map is one of the maps that'll be in Proleague)
And, for balance, here's a really long BW game. The BW game is an unusually good one, and the SC2 game is unusually bad. Can you guess what they have in common?
And here is the infamous Boxer vs Rain game, where Boxer started bitching out the game, during the game, because no one knew how to fight sky terran vs sky terran.
There's a common theme connecting these three games
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
Yup, I can see both sides to the argument in SC2 being a new challenge for them and now they have to sell the game. In the other light they're being forced to play a new game, which creates more tension to deliver good results.
For some players it could be a welcome change considering they either cannot break into their team's PL rosters or they've been there done that.
I like to focus more on the positives though. :D
On May 12 2012 05:39 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:35 rasers wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:27 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 04:08 slappy wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:45 TheButtonmen wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:22 slappy wrote:
On May 11 2012 23:19 kakaman wrote: [quote]
Check out MMA vs. DRG in Blizzard Cup...probably universally considered the most intense SC2 series thus far. Obviously you can't compare it to Proleague in terms of stakes and history between SKT and KT, but trust me, that series was very spectator friendly. Not sure if you need a GSL pass though
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You do realize that you have no clue right?
Enlighten me
Considering how ignorant you are and there have been posts and posts of discussion about it yet you decide not to search for yourself, how about no?
The other guy was right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to correlation between VOD accessibility and KeSPA transitioning to SC2.
Why don't I know what I'm talking about? He said he didn't want to pay for VODs. Monetization of BW was one of the key areas of failure for the game. Please educate me if you think differently.
The key areas of failure were:
1. Savior match-fixing scandal.
2. Blizzard being dicks trying to get money out of the non-profit Korean BW scene (KeSPA is non-profit)/kill the BW scene to make way for SC2.
3. Foreigners sucking (this made it suck on the global scale, not in the Korean scene which didn't care and reached it's peak 10 years after game release).
The lack of monetization is what made BW prevalent in the first place, as people were able to play it for cheap in LAN cafes with LAN support and across multiple servers.
Savior's match-fixing scandal was the camel that broke the camel's back. BW viewership on OGN and MBCGame were steadily declining since the high in 2007 or so. For the others, I think you are confusing monetization for consumers and monetization for corporations (Kespa and the teams). Yes BW became widespread because of easy access in PC Bangs, but I'm referring to the viability of BW as a business. Since Kespa was pretty much clueless in how to actually grow revenue into the industry, it was only natural for key pieces to fail once viewership and sponsorship gave way. I think they realized that you actually have to make money to pay for the lofty expenses it takes to run a professional team (what a lofty concept).
I will agree Blizzard was being greedy in trying to get a cut of the revenue stream at this juncture because the whole thing is so fragile, but can't fault them for trying. Costs a lot to make games.
Just don't blame me once Kespa says they are going to a subscription model for vods. Business is business.
On May 12 2012 09:38 figq wrote: google "youku dongraegu mma"; no need to thank me. -or as 2 posts above suggests, just register free account on gomtv; you'll still get more than enough vods even for the GSL the vod for the first game in each series is free also, last time i checked and the three seasons in 2010 are now fully free too, afaik (though gameplay has changed a lot since then)
The MMA vs DRG finals is free anyway I think (the one I linked), because it was a Blizzard thing. Or I bought it and don't remember it :O
On May 11 2012 12:01 Harem wrote: Soo called it a "rubbish game" on his Facebook.
It would be really interesting to know what BW progamers really think of the game. I’m sure that some see the transition to SC2 as a fresh and exiting restart. I do however find it extremely hard to believe that they all love SC2. These guys were willing to sacrifice so much in order to play BW because they loved the game and now they are forced to switch to something completely different… Well, I guess they will only say positive things about SC2 as long as they are planning on playing it.
Yup, I can see both sides to the argument in SC2 being a new challenge for them and now they have to sell the game. In the other light they're being forced to play a new game, which creates more tension to deliver good results.
For some players it could be a welcome change considering they either cannot break into their team's PL rosters or they've been there done that.
I like to focus more on the positives though. :D
On May 12 2012 05:39 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:35 rasers wrote:
On May 12 2012 05:27 kakaman wrote:
On May 12 2012 04:08 slappy wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:45 TheButtonmen wrote:
On May 12 2012 03:22 slappy wrote: [quote]
see it's funny, anytime someone says to watch a certain sc2 matchup that is supposed to be awesome (not saying it wasn't) they can't post a VOD of it. Anytime someone says there's an awesome BW VOD, they post it usually, or you can find it easily. I don't think I could ever get into sc2 if I have to pay for VODs. Sorry Blizz, I won't pay-to-play, and I won't pay to watch people play your games.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I would really like to see that MMA vs DRG game if possible
Asking for pirated VoDs is a big no-no on this site, you may want to remove that edit.
I'm not asking for pirated vods. I'm saying I would love to see the game, and can't. You are proving my point for me
You do realize that's the reason why BW is about to die right?
You do realize that you have no clue right?
Enlighten me
Considering how ignorant you are and there have been posts and posts of discussion about it yet you decide not to search for yourself, how about no?
The other guy was right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to correlation between VOD accessibility and KeSPA transitioning to SC2.
Why don't I know what I'm talking about? He said he didn't want to pay for VODs. Monetization of BW was one of the key areas of failure for the game. Please educate me if you think differently.
The key areas of failure were:
1. Savior match-fixing scandal.
2. Blizzard being dicks trying to get money out of the non-profit Korean BW scene (KeSPA is non-profit)/kill the BW scene to make way for SC2.
3. Foreigners sucking (this made it suck on the global scale, not in the Korean scene which didn't care and reached it's peak 10 years after game release).
The lack of monetization is what made BW prevalent in the first place, as people were able to play it for cheap in LAN cafes with LAN support and across multiple servers.
Savior's match-fixing scandal was the camel that broke the camel's back. BW viewership on OGN and MBCGame were steadily declining since the high in 2007 or so. For the others, I think you are confusing monetization for consumers and monetization for corporations (Kespa and the teams). Yes BW became widespread because of easy access in PC Bangs, but I'm referring to the viability of BW as a business. Since Kespa was pretty much clueless in how to actually grow revenue into the industry, it was only natural for key pieces to fail once viewership and sponsorship gave way. I think they realized that you actually have to make money to pay for the lofty expenses it takes to run a professional team (what a lofty concept).
I will agree Blizzard was being greedy in trying to get a cut of the revenue stream at this juncture because the whole thing is so fragile, but can't fault them for trying. Costs a lot to make games.
Just don't blame me once Kespa says they are going to a subscription model for vods. Business is business.
No one was paying for BW. Giving your product away is not a viable long-term strategy.
Meh, the Blizzard cup final is way overhyped game quality vise because Tastosis hyped it like fucking crazy. IIRC, there was like 3 games that was actually any good, but the final map was actually one of the best games played in SC2 up to date tho. The other 4 games were just roach ling/bling all-ins from DongRaeGu and that isn't good games.
On May 12 2012 09:38 figq wrote: google "youku dongraegu mma"; no need to thank me. -or as 2 posts above suggests, just register free account on gomtv; you'll still get more than enough vods even for the GSL the vod for the first game in each series is free also, last time i checked and the three seasons in 2010 are now fully free too, afaik (though gameplay has changed a lot since then)
The MMA vs DRG finals is free anyway I think (the one I linked), because it was a Blizzard thing. Or I bought it and don't remember it :O
It was given as a free bonus if you had purchased a ticket for another main GSL that was going on at the same timg iirc.
This game was great for example. There was no story, no big name players, it wasn't even the deciding set, but it was more entertaining than any SC2 match I've seen in the last year.
Blizzard doesn't charge for VOD access, GOM does. They're kind of unique in that regard.
Here's a random NASL VOD. It's not really an "epic" game. In fact, the player who gged literally did so out of boredom, so I think it's actually a good example of one of the worst sides of SC2, and one of the problems people don't actually talk about much
(This map is one of the maps that'll be in Proleague)
And, for balance, here's a really long BW game. The BW game is an unusually good one, and the SC2 game is unusually bad. Can you guess what they have in common?
And here is the infamous Boxer vs Rain game, where Boxer started bitching out the game, during the game, because no one knew how to fight sky terran vs sky terran.
There's a common theme connecting these three games
I think it is simply a case of bad gg timing in the first 2 games... which isn't really any game's fault.
On May 12 2012 09:38 figq wrote: google "youku dongraegu mma"; no need to thank me. -or as 2 posts above suggests, just register free account on gomtv; you'll still get more than enough vods even for the GSL the vod for the first game in each series is free also, last time i checked and the three seasons in 2010 are now fully free too, afaik (though gameplay has changed a lot since then)
Lol I've been in this situation before... 5 months later O haha what you talking about you BW elitist the game has changed so much since 5 months ago. That game is terrible going by today's standard. Rinse and repeat.
Uh, just providing ways to watch Korean SC2 vods for those who asked, nothing more. Watch, don't watch, analyze, don't analyze is up to you guys.
If you ask me, while we fight our little BW vs SC2 verbal disputes, or whatever, LoL in Korea is owning both BW and SC2 hard, and thus it's the true cause for all this mess, rather than SC2 taking over BW.
The Boxer vs. Rain match just shows you how in TvT a map that's easily cut in half and only has 2 narrow chokes is pretty terrible when Siege Tanks exist (with Vikings to give vision).
Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
if they broke the game into 3 pieces, each piece should be complete in its own, otherwise we consumers are just fucking dumb to buy half shit for the price of a full shit..
On May 12 2012 12:48 fabiano wrote: if they broke the game into 3 pieces, each piece should be complete in its own, otherwise we consumers are just fucking dumb to buy half shit for the price of a full shit..
Oh uh, did you forget Blizz is a company? And uh, companies need to make money? You are not making a computer game so you do not have to make any decisions for your game. Its always different when it comes to making money and making a game.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
On May 12 2012 12:54 fabiano wrote: What are you talking about? You make no sense at all ~__~
You say they are doing stupid stuff with their product to their consumers, you are basically saying that right? Well, you are not in control of a game not to mention a game of a popular series so it is always different when it comes to making decisions of a game you are working on especially if its popular.
Sure it is easy for us to say "that is stupid move, do it this way". But to a developer stand point, the decisions are not easy to make. You need to consider a lot of different factors and determine what is the best way to handle your game.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
So basically Blizzard created a shield that will last for 4 years.
Before all those 4 years any criticism they would take they can just reply with "no problem, the game isn't complete yet, wait for more 4 years then we talk!"
Man, it really sucks to have to wait 4 years for SC2 to be fun and epic... I guess we should be happy with the half-ass game we have rightnow!!
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
1. All of BW fans watched some sc2. Majority of them liked it less then BW. Period. Only very few of sc2 fans watched BW. Some of them liked, besides knowing anything from history that makes BW so much enjoyable, some of them not. But saying that we don't watched sc2 pro matches is insulting. Freaking Sc2 community inception made from BW community (u know, guys like Tasteless, HotBid, Waxangel and many others?)
2. Sc2 is inferior game. Yes, it can become better game than BW, eventually. Hell, if blizzard wasn't the company that developing sc2 I would even say WILL become better game. You must doing something wrong, having hundreds great talents, 4 years of time, 2 addons and shitload of patches not to achieve that. But nowadays blizzard just forgot how to do games. And here is the question: why wait for 4 years, when I can enjoy bw pro scene right now? Well... could.
3. Doing "but they need to make money" excuses for the companies that don't give a damn about customers (Im talking of some Blizzard decisions) is plain stupid. I don't even want to argue that.
4. Speaking of companies. Kespa apparently don't give a damn about their customers. Here is case in study: they couldn't find sponsor that was willing to give them necessary amount of money, now they can either cut their losses (couple less light projectors can't hurt pro scene), or change their strategy (i.e. not having 1 huge sponsors but many smaller instead). But what they did? We all know.
5. Sc2 guys can comfortably sit on theirs couch and enjoying "esports grow". But we have our favorite game killed (by 2 companies - blizzard and kespa). Its true we still can play it and have some indie tournaments, but it is not nearly the same. So yes, we are angry, and yes we are sometimes out of the line. Please forgive us. Or just fuck off, wouldn't you?
On May 12 2012 12:48 fabiano wrote: if they broke the game into 3 pieces, each piece should be complete in its own, otherwise we consumers are just fucking dumb to buy half shit for the price of a full shit..
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2
So... ?
Oh uh, did you forget Blizz is a company? And uh, companies need to make money? You are not making a computer game so you do not have to make any decisions for your game. Its always different when it comes to making money and making a game.
Thank you for pointing that out captain obvious. I'm sure none of us had thought of that =.= .
Btw might wanna read the latest flash interview. Loving the comments about how sc2 flash fans feel betrayed when he said protoss OP considering that Flash has no problem complaining in BW.
On May 12 2012 13:13 fabiano wrote: So basically Blizzard created a shield that will last for 4 years.
Before all those 4 years any criticism they would take they can just reply with "no problem, the game isn't complete yet, wait for more 4 years then we talk!"
Man, it really sucks to have to wait 4 years for SC2 to be fun and epic... I guess we should be happy with the half-ass game we have rightnow!!
Nice move, they have the SC scene by the balls.
To me this looks like SC2 is on life support. After it's cut off, it's uncertain whether the game's gonna be strong (good in terms of gameplay) enough to survive on its own.
On May 12 2012 12:48 fabiano wrote: if they broke the game into 3 pieces, each piece should be complete in its own, otherwise we consumers are just fucking dumb to buy half shit for the price of a full shit..
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2
So... ?
Oh uh, did you forget Blizz is a company? And uh, companies need to make money? You are not making a computer game so you do not have to make any decisions for your game. Its always different when it comes to making money and making a game.
Thank you for pointing that out captain obvious. I'm sure none of us had thought of that =.= .
Btw might wanna read the latest flash interview. Loving the comments about how sc2 flash fans feel betrayed when he said protoss OP considering that Flash has no problem complaining in BW.
Flash, by his own admission, is bad at SC2 and would get crushed in Code B, so I don't know why everyone's taking his word as gospel on SC2 balance.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
1. All of BW fans watched some sc2. Majority of them liked it less then BW. Period. Only very few of sc2 fans watched BW. Some of them liked, besides knowing anything from history that makes BW so much enjoyable, some of them not. But saying that we don't watched sc2 pro matches is insulting. Freaking Sc2 community inception made from BW community (u know, guys like Tasteless, HotBid, Waxangel and many others?)
2. Sc2 is inferior game. Yes, it can become better game than BW, eventually. Hell, if blizzard wasn't the company that developing sc2 I would even say WILL become better game. You must doing something wrong, having hundreds great talents, 4 years of time, 2 addons and shitload of patches not to achieve that. But nowadays blizzard just forgot how to do games. And here is the question: why wait for 4 years, when I can enjoy bw pro scene right now? Well... could.
3. Doing "but they need to make money" excuses for the companies that don't give a damn about customers (Im talking of some Blizzard decisions) is plain stupid. I don't even want to argue that.
4. Speaking of companies. Kespa apparently don't give a damn about their customers. Here is case in study: they couldn't find sponsor that was willing to give them necessary amount of money, now they can either cut their losses (couple less light projectors can't hurt pro scene), or change their strategy (i.e. not having 1 huge sponsors but many smaller instead). But what they did? We all know.
5. Sc2 guys can comfortably sit on theirs couch and enjoying "esports grow". But we have our favorite game killed (by 2 companies - blizzard and kespa). Its true we still can play it and have some indie tournaments, but it is not nearly the same. So yes, we are angry, and yes we are sometimes out of the line. Please forgive us. Or just fuck off, wouldn't you?
You have summed it up greatly, exactly my thoughts. I would like to add for anyone that does not understand what is the real wrong thing about sc2 for me. It is not about balance, it is not about units, it is not about micro or macro.... I don't like the way how the game feel, i don't like the units clumping together, i don't like the smarcasting and it is really boring to watch. Everything that made bw so exciting is gone (reavers, siege tank OP, lurkers, defilers) and there is nothing that replaced them in sc2. You could hold one ramp with 2 zealots, 2 cannons and 2 templars fairly long time. There are countless examples which make bw perfect and factors that make SC2 not perfect. SC2 cannot be saved by any expansion with new units or whatsoever. So anyone saying, wait the game is so fresh, just stfu already because it is not the case.
On May 12 2012 13:13 fabiano wrote: So basically Blizzard created a shield that will last for 4 years.
Before all those 4 years any criticism they would take they can just reply with "no problem, the game isn't complete yet, wait for more 4 years then we talk!"
Man, it really sucks to have to wait 4 years for SC2 to be fun and epic... I guess we should be happy with the half-ass game we have rightnow!!
Nice move, they have the SC scene by the balls.
To me this looks like SC2 is on life support. After it's cut off, it's uncertain whether the game's gonna be strong (good in terms of gameplay) enough to survive on its own.
On May 12 2012 13:13 fabiano wrote: So basically Blizzard created a shield that will last for 4 years.
Before all those 4 years any criticism they would take they can just reply with "no problem, the game isn't complete yet, wait for more 4 years then we talk!"
Man, it really sucks to have to wait 4 years for SC2 to be fun and epic... I guess we should be happy with the half-ass game we have rightnow!!
Nice move, they have the SC scene by the balls.
To me this looks like SC2 is on life support. After it's cut off, it's uncertain whether the game's gonna be strong (good in terms of gameplay) enough to survive on its own.
On May 12 2012 13:13 fabiano wrote: So basically Blizzard created a shield that will last for 4 years.
Before all those 4 years any criticism they would take they can just reply with "no problem, the game isn't complete yet, wait for more 4 years then we talk!"
Man, it really sucks to have to wait 4 years for SC2 to be fun and epic... I guess we should be happy with the half-ass game we have rightnow!!
Nice move, they have the SC scene by the balls.
To me this looks like SC2 is on life support. After it's cut off, it's uncertain whether the game's gonna be strong (good in terms of gameplay) enough to survive on its own.
SC2 marionette. BW Optimus Prime.
thats surprisingly accurate.
Yeah cut the strings and the marionette is just a doll. Optimus on the flipside is autonomous.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
1. All of BW fans watched some sc2. Majority of them liked it less then BW. Period. Only very few of sc2 fans watched BW. Some of them liked, besides knowing anything from history that makes BW so much enjoyable, some of them not. But saying that we don't watched sc2 pro matches is insulting. Freaking Sc2 community inception made from BW community (u know, guys like Tasteless, HotBid, Waxangel and many others?)
2. Sc2 is inferior game. Yes, it can become better game than BW, eventually. Hell, if blizzard wasn't the company that developing sc2 I would even say WILL become better game. You must doing something wrong, having hundreds great talents, 4 years of time, 2 addons and shitload of patches not to achieve that. But nowadays blizzard just forgot how to do games. And here is the question: why wait for 4 years, when I can enjoy bw pro scene right now? Well... could.
3. Doing "but they need to make money" excuses for the companies that don't give a damn about customers (Im talking of some Blizzard decisions) is plain stupid. I don't even want to argue that.
4. Speaking of companies. Kespa apparently don't give a damn about their customers. Here is case in study: they couldn't find sponsor that was willing to give them necessary amount of money, now they can either cut their losses (couple less light projectors can't hurt pro scene), or change their strategy (i.e. not having 1 huge sponsors but many smaller instead). But what they did? We all know.
5. Sc2 guys can comfortably sit on theirs couch and enjoying "esports grow". But we have our favorite game killed (by 2 companies - blizzard and kespa). Its true we still can play it and have some indie tournaments, but it is not nearly the same. So yes, we are angry, and yes we are sometimes out of the line. Please forgive us. Or just fuck off, wouldn't you?
You have summed it up greatly, exactly my thoughts. I would like to add for anyone that does not understand what is the real wrong thing about sc2 for me. It is not about balance, it is not about units, it is not about micro or macro.... I don't like the way how the game feel, i don't like the units clumping together, i don't like the smarcasting and it is really boring to watch. Everything that made bw so exciting is gone (reavers, siege tank OP, lurkers, defilers) and there is nothing that replaced them in sc2. You could hold one ramp with 2 zealots, 2 cannons and 2 templars fairly long time. There are countless examples which make bw perfect and factors that make SC2 not perfect. SC2 cannot be saved by any expansion with new units or whatsoever. So anyone saying, wait the game is so fresh, just stfu already because it is not the case.
Exactly. I can't understand the logic behind sc2 guys saying over and over again about how the game is fresh and will be great in future. They are delusioned beyond repair.
I'm wondering whether anyone has shown them SC2BW. Do they even know of its existence? It's not an exact replica, of course, but perhaps a facelift would be better than just switching to actual SC2.
On May 12 2012 18:53 andrea20 wrote: I'm wondering whether anyone has shown them SC2BW. Do they even know of its existence? It's not an exact replica, of course, but perhaps a facelift would be better than just switching to actual SC2.
A facelift? You mean to take SC2BW and change the graphics to BW? You guys sure know how to make things complicated.
Aside from that, why do you think Blizzard would ever agree on anyone using a lame replica of BW instead of their new game they want to sell? It's not going to happen, ever. And the game isn't going to get much better either. It's been designed to appease the crowds and it's doing just that.
On May 12 2012 18:53 andrea20 wrote: I'm wondering whether anyone has shown them SC2BW. Do they even know of its existence? It's not an exact replica, of course, but perhaps a facelift would be better than just switching to actual SC2.
A facelift? You mean to take SC2BW and change the graphics to BW? You guys sure know how to make things complicated.
Aside from that, why do you think Blizzard would ever agree on anyone using a lame replica of BW instead of their new game they want to sell? It's not going to happen, ever. And the game isn't going to get much better either. It's been designed to appease the crowds and it's doing just that.
Because the only way to play the lame replica of bw is to buy their new game they want to sell?
On May 12 2012 18:53 andrea20 wrote: I'm wondering whether anyone has shown them SC2BW. Do they even know of its existence? It's not an exact replica, of course, but perhaps a facelift would be better than just switching to actual SC2.
A facelift? You mean to take SC2BW and change the graphics to BW? You guys sure know how to make things complicated.
Aside from that, why do you think Blizzard would ever agree on anyone using a lame replica of BW instead of their new game they want to sell? It's not going to happen, ever. And the game isn't going to get much better either. It's been designed to appease the crowds and it's doing just that.
Because the only way to play the lame replica of bw is to buy their new game they want to sell?
So you create a game, spend a bunch of money advertising it and tweeking it, produce expansions and expect people to buy them and suddenly start promoting it by a lame replica of a 1998 game?
"Look dear users, our game is terrible so instead we encourage the proscene to use our older game with worse graphics, you should consider doing that too, since it will cost you a lot of money."
Yeah that sounds legit. Good luck waiting for that to happen.
On May 12 2012 12:48 fabiano wrote: if they broke the game into 3 pieces, each piece should be complete in its own, otherwise we consumers are just fucking dumb to buy half shit for the price of a full shit..
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2
So... ?
Oh uh, did you forget Blizz is a company? And uh, companies need to make money? You are not making a computer game so you do not have to make any decisions for your game. Its always different when it comes to making money and making a game.
Thank you for pointing that out captain obvious. I'm sure none of us had thought of that =.= .
Btw might wanna read the latest flash interview. Loving the comments about how sc2 flash fans feel betrayed when he said protoss OP considering that Flash has no problem complaining in BW.
Flash, by his own admission, is bad at SC2 and would get crushed in Code B, so I don't know why everyone's taking his word as gospel on SC2 balance.
This post is filled with so much irony that any intelligent comebacks by me are being stifled by my laughter.
I just waded through 40 pages of bitching about SC2 vs BW because all I want to know is can I watch this, and will there be English commentary and easy-to-find videos. But it looks like nobody's really sure... there's gonna be vods, there probably won't be a stream right away, and nobody knows about English commentary but it doesn't seem likely.
So I'm super duper excited about this. I love StarCraft. Brood War, SC2, love it all. Love it love it love it. I love the GSL, I love my favorite English BW commentators, I love Day9, NukeTheStars, Husky, Tastostis, Moletrap, JP McDaniel, on and on and on. I love MVP, DRG, NesTea, MC, Boxer, Nada, Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Reach, Zero, and STOOOOOORKUUUU!!! I got so into watching Korean VODs that it became my new lunchtime activity at work. I volunteered to feed our baby girl all the time because it meant I had a good half hour in front of the PC to catch another game. I continually subscribe to new GSL seasons and eat it up. I went to MLG and had an absolute blast watching Bomber and Idra and Huk and everyone live and meeting the TL pros and drinking Dr. Peppers for hours and hours with 2000 of my closest friends. All cheering for StarCraft on the big screen.
Look, I'm old as heck - I went to E3 the in 1998. THE year. Blizzard was so hip they had rented out a nearby hotel lobby just for the hell of it, because they wanted a captive audience for their new game's big debut. Loving WC2 like I did, hell yes I went! I met lots of the devs, hung out with a dude in a 10' tall Zealot suit, and got to see the game before anyone else (this is before YouTube... we used two cups and a string... until then you could only see still shots of the game). I was in love. I worked at Best Buy as a young dude and by God it was my mission to stock SC and I made sure to fill as many shelves as humanly possible so everyone would see it when they walked in the door (yeah, I know... we had to use stores to get games!) - of course I pulled my copy before I stocked them. The first boxes were so cool - three different covers, one had a Terran Marine (sans helmet), one had a Hydralisk, and one had a Zealot - all closeup faces. I took the Hydra because that thing was boss as all get out. I knew I had to play me some Zerg. But I wasn't about to play that campaign in anything but the order the designers intended. I sucked at SC online but I played every chance I got. That damn game cost me at least one year in college.
I have never been as excited as when I learned so many years later (marriage, kids, career, house...) that they were making ANOTHER STARCRAFT. It was that announcement that somehow led me to a message board that linked a pro game, and started my hobby. I watch more than I play and I wouldn't have it any other way. And now you're telling me my favorite players' careers aren't over yet? HELL TO THE YEAH! Am I excited to see what happens? Wooooooo!
So anyway. I love the GSL because I can go there and find in an easily indexed format the newest matches and watch them when I have the time. I'll gladly keep paying them the cash. The games come out right on schedule, and the casters are supreme. The production values are top notch, and the site rocks for bandwidth and speed. SC looks incredible on the big screen in HD! I would love love love to see them do this for this new Proleague - I'll watch it in Korean in low res if I have to, but if you can produce something like what they've done for the GSL here and it has Stork (and for the love of god don't take out Carriers yet! Just for him!) and everyone else I love then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
I've seen SC go from an obscure hobby that a lot of the gaming world's forgotten to something where thousands show up at the convention center just to watch. I'm so glad we at least have two more games coming! Knowing Blizzard, I'll be a retiree before SC3 comes out! :D
On May 12 2012 20:53 meldonSC wrote: I just waded through 40 pages of bitching about SC2 vs BW because all I want to know is can I watch this, and will there be English commentary and easy-to-find videos. But it looks like nobody's really sure... there's gonna be vods, there probably won't be a stream right away, and nobody knows about English commentary but it doesn't seem likely.
There will be VODs. There will be a live Korean stream. An official stream and some TL restreams. There won't be live English commentary for the first few games but there is a possibility that it will eventually be implemented.
On May 12 2012 19:31 Stratos wrote: why do you think Blizzard would ever agree on anyone using a lame replica of BW instead of their new game they want to sell? It's not going to happen, ever. And the game isn't going to get much better either. It's been designed to appease the crowds and it's doing just that.
So you create a game, spend a bunch of money advertising it and tweeking it, produce expansions and expect people to buy them and suddenly start promoting it by a lame replica of a 1998 game?
"Look dear users, our game is terrible so instead we encourage the proscene to use our older game with worse graphics, you should consider doing that too, since it will cost you a lot of money."
Yeah that sounds legit. Good luck waiting for that to happen.
Proleague doesn't have the backing of Blizzard, whereas GSL does. Proleague didn't need Blizzard in all the years it's been doing it. They aren't actually required to play the core game.
SC2BW is as close as you'll get to BW on SC2. It doesn't have all the glitch-crazy stuff like passing through buildings, but at least it's being constantly updated through community feedback.
If DOTA can become a legitimate tournament game even though it's a "Use Map Settings" map, I don't see why SC2BW cannot do the same, either.
On May 12 2012 19:31 Stratos wrote: why do you think Blizzard would ever agree on anyone using a lame replica of BW instead of their new game they want to sell? It's not going to happen, ever. And the game isn't going to get much better either. It's been designed to appease the crowds and it's doing just that.
So you create a game, spend a bunch of money advertising it and tweeking it, produce expansions and expect people to buy them and suddenly start promoting it by a lame replica of a 1998 game?
"Look dear users, our game is terrible so instead we encourage the proscene to use our older game with worse graphics, you should consider doing that too, since it will cost you a lot of money."
Yeah that sounds legit. Good luck waiting for that to happen.
Proleague doesn't have the backing of Blizzard, whereas GSL does. Proleague didn't need Blizzard in all the years it's been doing it. They aren't actually required to play the core game.
SC2BW is as close as you'll get to BW on SC2. It doesn't have all the glitch-crazy stuff like passing through buildings, but at least it's being constantly updated through community feedback.
If DOTA can become a legitimate tournament game even though it's a "Use Map Settings" map, I don't see why SC2BW cannot do the same, either.
Never going to happen. Blizzard is in the way. As long as they are managed under the current jurisdiction, NO UMS CAN BE USED FOR TOUNAMENTS because you need their permission in order to even be able to run one. Blizzard have total control of this 'esport' shenanigans, or until SC2 gets completely overtaken by League of Legend.
On May 12 2012 22:55 Ricjames wrote: cause people could play bw instead... sc2bw is ridiculous, there is no point in that
Believe it or not but graphics has a huge impact these days.
But the aesthetic of SC2 is actually repulsive to a lot of people. It's extremely dark and difficult to tell what's happening. I think the only people who really like it are people who've gotten used to it after playing 100 or so games, it is that bad.
On May 12 2012 22:55 Ricjames wrote: cause people could play bw instead... sc2bw is ridiculous, there is no point in that
Believe it or not but graphics has a huge impact these days.
But the aesthetic of SC2 is actually repulsive to a lot of people. It's extremely dark and difficult to tell what's happening. I think the only people who really like it are people who've gotten used to it after playing 100 or so games, it is that bad.
On May 12 2012 22:55 Ricjames wrote: cause people could play bw instead... sc2bw is ridiculous, there is no point in that
Believe it or not but graphics has a huge impact these days.
I'd say the graphics are pretty good and clear. Nothing wrong with it. The only reason people believe graphic are important is because of the media. It's all in the head and low and behold. Gameplay will always seize the day in the end.
On May 12 2012 20:53 meldonSC wrote: I just waded through 40 pages of bitching about SC2 vs BW because all I want to know is can I watch this, and will there be English commentary and easy-to-find videos. But it looks like nobody's really sure... there's gonna be vods, there probably won't be a stream right away, and nobody knows about English commentary but it doesn't seem likely.
So I'm super duper excited about this. I love StarCraft. Brood War, SC2, love it all. Love it love it love it. I love the GSL, I love my favorite English BW commentators, I love Day9, NukeTheStars, Husky, Tastostis, Moletrap, JP McDaniel, on and on and on. I love MVP, DRG, NesTea, MC, Boxer, Nada, Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Reach, Zero, and STOOOOOORKUUUU!!! I got so into watching Korean VODs that it became my new lunchtime activity at work. I volunteered to feed our baby girl all the time because it meant I had a good half hour in front of the PC to catch another game. I continually subscribe to new GSL seasons and eat it up. I went to MLG and had an absolute blast watching Bomber and Idra and Huk and everyone live and meeting the TL pros and drinking Dr. Peppers for hours and hours with 2000 of my closest friends. All cheering for StarCraft on the big screen.
Look, I'm old as heck - I went to E3 the in 1998. THE year. Blizzard was so hip they had rented out a nearby hotel lobby just for the hell of it, because they wanted a captive audience for their new game's big debut. Loving WC2 like I did, hell yes I went! I met lots of the devs, hung out with a dude in a 10' tall Zealot suit, and got to see the game before anyone else (this is before YouTube... we used two cups and a string... until then you could only see still shots of the game). I was in love. I worked at Best Buy as a young dude and by God it was my mission to stock SC and I made sure to fill as many shelves as humanly possible so everyone would see it when they walked in the door (yeah, I know... we had to use stores to get games!) - of course I pulled my copy before I stocked them. The first boxes were so cool - three different covers, one had a Terran Marine (sans helmet), one had a Hydralisk, and one had a Zealot - all closeup faces. I took the Hydra because that thing was boss as all get out. I knew I had to play me some Zerg. But I wasn't about to play that campaign in anything but the order the designers intended. I sucked at SC online but I played every chance I got. That damn game cost me at least one year in college.
I have never been as excited as when I learned so many years later (marriage, kids, career, house...) that they were making ANOTHER STARCRAFT. It was that announcement that somehow led me to a message board that linked a pro game, and started my hobby. I watch more than I play and I wouldn't have it any other way. And now you're telling me my favorite players' careers aren't over yet? HELL TO THE YEAH! Am I excited to see what happens? Wooooooo!
So anyway. I love the GSL because I can go there and find in an easily indexed format the newest matches and watch them when I have the time. I'll gladly keep paying them the cash. The games come out right on schedule, and the casters are supreme. The production values are top notch, and the site rocks for bandwidth and speed. SC looks incredible on the big screen in HD! I would love love love to see them do this for this new Proleague - I'll watch it in Korean in low res if I have to, but if you can produce something like what they've done for the GSL here and it has Stork (and for the love of god don't take out Carriers yet! Just for him!) and everyone else I love then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
I've seen SC go from an obscure hobby that a lot of the gaming world's forgotten to something where thousands show up at the convention center just to watch. I'm so glad we at least have two more games coming! Knowing Blizzard, I'll be a retiree before SC3 comes out! :D
Both camps claim the other game has worse graphics.
My theory on why is that: The easily available VODs of important matches for both games are of low quality (~360p). If you haven't played a complex game yourself it's literally impossible to learn it from 360p. So you just end up hating it.
Moreover, there are serious technical difficulties to try the other game for each of the two camps. BW requires special fixes to run on Win7, and SC2 requires decent hardware to run at all. So way too often people just end up only with those ~360p VODs. And of course conclude their game has better graphics, because they actually play it.
To SC2-only fans: Believe it or not BW looks stunning in HD (1080p). Crisp, bright, detailed. It has such small details that I've never even noticed in my life before running the game in 1080p, even though the core engine only renders 640x480.
To BW-only fans: SC2 requires higher definition to look as it's intended to look. The lowest resolution for it is 1024x768; but you won't get that from the free VODs of important matches, or the free GSL stream. So to judge the graphics you need to get some ordinary youtube VOD in really high quality, even if it's just Husky casting some unimportant ladder replay.
On May 13 2012 00:51 figq wrote: Both camps claim the other game has worse graphics.
My theory on why is that: The easily available VODs of important matches for both games are of low quality (~360p). If you haven't played a complex game yourself it's literally impossible to learn it from 360p. So you just end up hating it.
Moreover, there are serious technical difficulties to try the other game for each of the two camps. BW requires special fixes to run on Win7, and SC2 requires decent hardware to run at all. So way too often people just end up only with those ~360p VODs. And of course conclude their game has better graphics, because they actually play it.
To SC2-only fans: Believe it or not BW looks stunning in HD (1080p). Crisp, bright, detailed. It has such small details that I've never even noticed in my life before running the game in 1080p, even though the core engine only renders 640x480.
To BW-only fans: SC2 requires higher definition to look as it's intended to look. The lowest resolution for it is 1024x768; but you won't get that from the free VODs of important matches, or the free GSL stream. So to judge the graphics you need to get some ordinary youtube VOD in really high quality, even if it's just Husky casting some unimportant ladder replay.
Do you really believe we (bw fans) judge SC2 from VODS? Do you really think we are that short sighted? I wouldn't dare to judge anything unless i tried it myself and see for myself what it is. I came, i saw, i made a judgement and it didn't pass.
On May 13 2012 00:51 figq wrote: Both camps claim the other game has worse graphics.
My theory on why is that: The easily available VODs of important matches for both games are of low quality (~360p). If you haven't played a complex game yourself it's literally impossible to learn it from 360p. So you just end up hating it.
Moreover, there are serious technical difficulties to try the other game for each of the two camps. BW requires special fixes to run on Win7, and SC2 requires decent hardware to run at all. So way too often people just end up only with those ~360p VODs. And of course conclude their game has better graphics, because they actually play it.
To SC2-only fans: Believe it or not BW looks stunning in HD (1080p). Crisp, bright, detailed. It has such small details that I've never even noticed in my life before running the game in 1080p, even though the core engine only renders 640x480.
To BW-only fans: SC2 requires higher definition to look as it's intended to look. The lowest resolution for it is 1024x768; but you won't get that from the free VODs of important matches, or the free GSL stream. So to judge the graphics you need to get some ordinary youtube VOD in really high quality, even if it's just Husky casting some unimportant ladder replay.
Do you really believe we (bw fans) judge SC2 from VODS? Do you really think we are that short sighted? I wouldn't dare to judge anything unless i tried it myself and see for myself what it is. I came, i saw, i made a judgement and it didn't pass.
I'm only talking about graphics here. People who claim the other game doesn't have clear graphics have not played it; I can't see any other explanation. BW is crisper, but both games are clear enough in HD.
Oh, and you don't qualify for my clause "BW-only" then - it means people who have not even played SC2 at all (and there are such people, because of old hardware for example). Just as there are SC2 players who could never try BW even if they wanted, because they couldn't figure out the fixes for Win7.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Show me the link of that BW game and then we'll talk.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
people like you and statements like this are why I am beginning to hate teamliquid
On May 12 2012 20:53 meldonSC wrote: I just waded through 40 pages of bitching about SC2 vs BW because all I want to know is can I watch this, and will there be English commentary and easy-to-find videos. But it looks like nobody's really sure... there's gonna be vods, there probably won't be a stream right away, and nobody knows about English commentary but it doesn't seem likely.
So I'm super duper excited about this. I love StarCraft. Brood War, SC2, love it all. Love it love it love it. I love the GSL, I love my favorite English BW commentators, I love Day9, NukeTheStars, Husky, Tastostis, Moletrap, JP McDaniel, on and on and on. I love MVP, DRG, NesTea, MC, Boxer, Nada, Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Reach, Zero, and STOOOOOORKUUUU!!! I got so into watching Korean VODs that it became my new lunchtime activity at work. I volunteered to feed our baby girl all the time because it meant I had a good half hour in front of the PC to catch another game. I continually subscribe to new GSL seasons and eat it up. I went to MLG and had an absolute blast watching Bomber and Idra and Huk and everyone live and meeting the TL pros and drinking Dr. Peppers for hours and hours with 2000 of my closest friends. All cheering for StarCraft on the big screen.
Look, I'm old as heck - I went to E3 the in 1998. THE year. Blizzard was so hip they had rented out a nearby hotel lobby just for the hell of it, because they wanted a captive audience for their new game's big debut. Loving WC2 like I did, hell yes I went! I met lots of the devs, hung out with a dude in a 10' tall Zealot suit, and got to see the game before anyone else (this is before YouTube... we used two cups and a string... until then you could only see still shots of the game). I was in love. I worked at Best Buy as a young dude and by God it was my mission to stock SC and I made sure to fill as many shelves as humanly possible so everyone would see it when they walked in the door (yeah, I know... we had to use stores to get games!) - of course I pulled my copy before I stocked them. The first boxes were so cool - three different covers, one had a Terran Marine (sans helmet), one had a Hydralisk, and one had a Zealot - all closeup faces. I took the Hydra because that thing was boss as all get out. I knew I had to play me some Zerg. But I wasn't about to play that campaign in anything but the order the designers intended. I sucked at SC online but I played every chance I got. That damn game cost me at least one year in college.
I have never been as excited as when I learned so many years later (marriage, kids, career, house...) that they were making ANOTHER STARCRAFT. It was that announcement that somehow led me to a message board that linked a pro game, and started my hobby. I watch more than I play and I wouldn't have it any other way. And now you're telling me my favorite players' careers aren't over yet? HELL TO THE YEAH! Am I excited to see what happens? Wooooooo!
So anyway. I love the GSL because I can go there and find in an easily indexed format the newest matches and watch them when I have the time. I'll gladly keep paying them the cash. The games come out right on schedule, and the casters are supreme. The production values are top notch, and the site rocks for bandwidth and speed. SC looks incredible on the big screen in HD! I would love love love to see them do this for this new Proleague - I'll watch it in Korean in low res if I have to, but if you can produce something like what they've done for the GSL here and it has Stork (and for the love of god don't take out Carriers yet! Just for him!) and everyone else I love then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
I've seen SC go from an obscure hobby that a lot of the gaming world's forgotten to something where thousands show up at the convention center just to watch. I'm so glad we at least have two more games coming! Knowing Blizzard, I'll be a retiree before SC3 comes out! :D
So yeah. My sig says it all.
Sir. You just won this thread. And congratz on your first post. Welcome to team liquid!
On May 12 2012 20:53 meldonSC wrote: I just waded through 40 pages of bitching about SC2 vs BW because all I want to know is can I watch this, and will there be English commentary and easy-to-find videos. But it looks like nobody's really sure... there's gonna be vods, there probably won't be a stream right away, and nobody knows about English commentary but it doesn't seem likely.
So I'm super duper excited about this. I love StarCraft. Brood War, SC2, love it all. Love it love it love it. I love the GSL, I love my favorite English BW commentators, I love Day9, NukeTheStars, Husky, Tastostis, Moletrap, JP McDaniel, on and on and on. I love MVP, DRG, NesTea, MC, Boxer, Nada, Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Reach, Zero, and STOOOOOORKUUUU!!! I got so into watching Korean VODs that it became my new lunchtime activity at work. I volunteered to feed our baby girl all the time because it meant I had a good half hour in front of the PC to catch another game. I continually subscribe to new GSL seasons and eat it up. I went to MLG and had an absolute blast watching Bomber and Idra and Huk and everyone live and meeting the TL pros and drinking Dr. Peppers for hours and hours with 2000 of my closest friends. All cheering for StarCraft on the big screen.
Look, I'm old as heck - I went to E3 the in 1998. THE year. Blizzard was so hip they had rented out a nearby hotel lobby just for the hell of it, because they wanted a captive audience for their new game's big debut. Loving WC2 like I did, hell yes I went! I met lots of the devs, hung out with a dude in a 10' tall Zealot suit, and got to see the game before anyone else (this is before YouTube... we used two cups and a string... until then you could only see still shots of the game). I was in love. I worked at Best Buy as a young dude and by God it was my mission to stock SC and I made sure to fill as many shelves as humanly possible so everyone would see it when they walked in the door (yeah, I know... we had to use stores to get games!) - of course I pulled my copy before I stocked them. The first boxes were so cool - three different covers, one had a Terran Marine (sans helmet), one had a Hydralisk, and one had a Zealot - all closeup faces. I took the Hydra because that thing was boss as all get out. I knew I had to play me some Zerg. But I wasn't about to play that campaign in anything but the order the designers intended. I sucked at SC online but I played every chance I got. That damn game cost me at least one year in college.
I have never been as excited as when I learned so many years later (marriage, kids, career, house...) that they were making ANOTHER STARCRAFT. It was that announcement that somehow led me to a message board that linked a pro game, and started my hobby. I watch more than I play and I wouldn't have it any other way. And now you're telling me my favorite players' careers aren't over yet? HELL TO THE YEAH! Am I excited to see what happens? Wooooooo!
So anyway. I love the GSL because I can go there and find in an easily indexed format the newest matches and watch them when I have the time. I'll gladly keep paying them the cash. The games come out right on schedule, and the casters are supreme. The production values are top notch, and the site rocks for bandwidth and speed. SC looks incredible on the big screen in HD! I would love love love to see them do this for this new Proleague - I'll watch it in Korean in low res if I have to, but if you can produce something like what they've done for the GSL here and it has Stork (and for the love of god don't take out Carriers yet! Just for him!) and everyone else I love then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
I've seen SC go from an obscure hobby that a lot of the gaming world's forgotten to something where thousands show up at the convention center just to watch. I'm so glad we at least have two more games coming! Knowing Blizzard, I'll be a retiree before SC3 comes out! :D
So yeah. My sig says it all.
awesome story, awesome memories shared! i remember how i was a huge red alert fanboy and played the sc demo (summer '98). i fell in love instantly. of course i ended up getting it right away, beating it and playing tons and tons of offline games (we had no internet back then^^). unfortunately i couldn't go to any us events (that goes for e3 as well as blizzcon), as i was only 13 years old and living in germany... at the age of 15 we moved to a different city. i knew nobody whatsoever, but when i was carriying my pc home one day, this dude asked me what i was playing. i said one word: starcraft. baaaam. 3 days later i was invited to my first lan. my sc playing friends all lived in on big multi-storey building- great coincidence!!! by that time we already played bw. it was the best time. we were spread on 5 different storeys- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 7th. we had a bunch of 15m (that should be close to 50ft) long cables going down to the 1st floor (that's were our hub was) and ended up playing complete weekends. luckily i was very good at school so my parents didn't bother as they were happy i made friends quickly. ever since i got the real game i was coped with protoss! i was "speshual tacticing" it up, way before i heared about it on sotg, going dts way before i knew about bisu. we did this every weekend and holiday- literally every weekend! in total we were 5 guys playing the game on different levels (literally^^). as i turned 17 my interest in sc begann to fade, everyone i knew was all about ut, quake, fifa and nba games... still, when i got accepted for a foreign exchange programm the only 2 games i took with me were dungeon keeper 2 (my pc in germany was too slow for that and i was hoping my new american family had a better pc --->wrong^^)and sc. i forgot one bag in ger with bw in it , so i "only" had the original sc (protoss cover- who needs a mouth!?!). as the cd case was severly damaged i had no cd-key left whatsoever. thank god i rememberd that in 8th grade one of my friends told us about the key-bug/master key! i cannot remember it anymore, but with any original unpatched (cause tha's how i rolled ) all you had to do was to enter this weired number "9333333333331" or something like that. the numbers may be different, but you get the idea... (if anybody knows about that, pm me . of course in america nobody i knew gave a s**t about sc, making it hard for me to gain friends in the beginning. comming from europe i had no clue about madden, baseball or ncaa game at all (gooo bearcats!/buckeys). so once again i was by myself, playing sc. this time i was able to try out the battle.net, finding out that the games in our little microcosm in germany were harder for me o0 (i guess tha's b/c everybody figuered out everybody elses playstyle at one point). by the time i graduated from high school i completly lost track of sc i was rather going on parties and getting wasted. i think in 08 i saw the "hell it's about time" trailer and got goose bumps! i got it the day it came out, right after i took an exame (i failed advanced microeconomics and gametheory (oh yeah, game theory best class evar! game theory also explains why mvp cheesed out all protosses he met but that's a different story )). in october 2010 i googled "best sc2 tournament" and ended up being hooked to the gsl ever since. i have bought all seasons (except for the ones w/out tastosis- the long season teamleagues, but i got the first appearence of squirtle on team league season 2 vs mvp^^ or mma being named "legend killer" by artosis). i suck at the game, as i don't really have time to play anymore but i'm hooked on sc more than ever. gsl/streams/mlg is pretty much all i watch, on my laptop, tablet and cell phone!!! i've been constantly visiting tl since october 2010 but i joined just recently, after the news of the (perhaps last) 2012 osl! that was in fact my first tl comment. i have always been a macro player- as i came from epic franchizes- civilization, aoe and the anno series. so till this day i rather go up to 5 base, that's why i liked mvp's playstyle waymore than any other early sc2 protoss (except for ki-su who would fast expand every game and get cheesed out (gsl open season 1 seo, ki-su vs. "hope-torture" steps of war comes to my mind)). i thank the tl community for their love and passion about sc. reeding 20 pages of flaming and offending each other about which sc game is better and who needs to comprehend better to what they read makes me sad in a way. as i barely knew any people who played sc (my entire life) i rather make friends with any nerd than bash them...
so thank you blizzard for awesome games, thank you nazgul/tl for giving me this awesome community and speshual thanks to meldonsc for sharing his memories.
oh and @topic: awesome news! can't wait for proleague to beginn!!!
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
Dudes, thanks so much! I'm so with you on the 'real life' thing - I occasionally throw something on Facebook about StarCraft and everyone just ignores it. But a note about how I made my kids pancakes and I get fifty replies haha. That's why MLG was so incredibly awesome and I am praying to Odin that we get another one in Raleigh (represent!) this summer so I can hound some of those Broodwar guys for their autographs!
Oh, and for the record? Getting both BW and SC2 in the same tourney makes me feel like I must be getting karma back for all the toys I donated to the orphans or something :D 7 days to go!!!!
Immediately joined TL the moment I saw this. Quite exciting really, but I can't help but feel that it's a bit unfair to the players though... As much as they may (or may not) enjoy playing SC2 on the side, its quite a challenge to suddenly have such a huge shift like this. Not to mention that from the looks of it, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, you really don't have to win your BW games at all and still win the series? Just seems like too huge shift all of a sudden, especially for the players. =/
On the other hand, I'm really interested to see what comes of this, assuming they shift fully to SC2 after a while. Would be pretty awesome to see more teams participating in team leagues if it gets to that point. The SC2 fan in me definitely approves =D
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
I think what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim" is that you provided no evidence in support of your claim that "BW offers more". By there being fundamental differences in gameplay, it doesn't automatically mean that one game offers more than the other, it just proves they're different. You didn't explain the reasoning behind that claim, that's why it's just seen as an opinion right now.
Personally though, I feel they are both equally competent. Maybe I'd be more inclined to be at awe for the stunts pulled off in BW as compared to SC2 but probably because BW is more mechanically demanding on the players with unit control not being the easiest thing to do and not to forget the lack of smart-casting.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
people like you and statements like this are why I am beginning to hate teamliquid
The fact he hasn't been banned astounds me. God TL is not the same as it used to be. Don't get me wrong, the good outnumber the bad, but when people like him make uninformed, biased post, it hurts.
On May 14 2012 00:23 Aazean wrote: Immediately joined TL the moment I saw this. Quite exciting really, but I can't help but feel that it's a bit unfair to the players though... As much as they may (or may not) enjoy playing SC2 on the side, its quite a challenge to suddenly have such a huge shift like this. Not to mention that from the looks of it, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, you really don't have to win your BW games at all and still win the series? Just seems like too huge shift all of a sudden, especially for the players. =/
On the other hand, I'm really interested to see what comes of this, assuming they shift fully to SC2 after a while. Would be pretty awesome to see more teams participating in team leagues if it gets to that point. The SC2 fan in me definitely approves =D
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
I think what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim" is that you provided no evidence in support of your claim that "BW offers more". By there being fundamental differences in gameplay, it doesn't automatically mean that one game offers more than the other, it just proves they're different. You didn't explain the reasoning behind that claim, that's why it's just seen as an opinion right now.
Personally though, I feel they are both equally competent. Maybe I'd be more inclined to be at awe for the stunts pulled off in BW as compared to SC2 but probably because BW is more mechanically demanding on the players with unit control not being the easiest thing to do and not to forget the lack of smart-casting.
I think there is an over-fetishizaton and overuse of "mechanics" as the main differentiator between SC2 and BW (and BW fans fall prey to this as well when comparing the two games). Both Starcrafts are strategy games foremost. I don't watch either because I want to see people play UMS micro games or select a bunch of buildings and press hotkeys. I cringe everytime a SC2 caster talks about "macro" games. All games require macro/micro/etc and it is silly to differentiate based on aspects of the game that are a given at the highest level. The reason I prefer BW is b/c tactically and strategically, it is much more developed and deep. SC2 has gotten better over two years, but not as much as hoped in the beginning. The reason why, for example, Bisu's PvZ is so sublime is because his decisions are flawless, his execution crisp, and his thinking prescient. Mechanics/multitask/micro are an ends to a mean, not the end itself.
On May 12 2012 12:35 Bareleon wrote: Too many BW trolls bashing on SC2 what a shame. No one is forcing you to play or watch SC2. People still cant take different game is different nor can they take change.
i am glad BW will be dead. Forever SC2!!!!!!! <3
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
people like you and statements like this are why I am beginning to hate teamliquid
The fact he hasn't been banned astounds me. God TL is not the same as it used to be. Don't get me wrong, the good outnumber the bad, but when people like him make uninformed, biased post, it hurts.
Can't blame the mods though, they would need an increase in force to wade through all the shit storms here nowadays. TL went from having a handful of people who love BW, and really the only trolling and bashing was the team vs team rivalries which was all in good fun and I loved to read it all (mostly kt vs skt rofl), to now where most threads remind me of reading youtube comments, and is full of people from all corners of the internet
Ugh all this hate is hard to wade through.. I just want to know if this is going to be broadcasted for people outside of Korea or not.
But seriously, people come onto these forums looking for a fight, from both sides... BW and SC 2. Its annoying how there is two sides anyways... Its only going to divide us in the end. Can't we all just get along?
On May 14 2012 03:39 R3demption wrote: Ugh all this hate is hard to wade through.. I just want to know if this is going to be broadcasted for people outside of Korea or not.
But seriously, people come onto these forums looking for a fight, from both sides... BW and SC 2. Its annoying how there is two sides anyways... Its only going to divide us in the end. Can't we all just get along?
On May 14 2012 03:39 R3demption wrote: Ugh all this hate is hard to wade through.. I just want to know if this is going to be broadcasted for people outside of Korea or not.
But seriously, people come onto these forums looking for a fight, from both sides... BW and SC 2. Its annoying how there is two sides anyways... Its only going to divide us in the end. Can't we all just get along?
There can be only one Starcraft.
Can we all just agree that the StarCraft franchise, in all its glory, is better than any other game and our community is by far the most respected one out there? I could care less about a debate SC vs BW vs SC 2, because they're all great games and it comes down to individual opinion most of the time. And yes, BW veterans and fans, we love and respect you. You led the way for everything in SC 2 and RTS in general. If someone comes in here and disrespects you and your game from SC 2, trust me, they are just the vocal minority. Most of SC 2 fans acknowledge the greatness of BW. Fighting with the few trolls is pointless...
The only time I would expect us to fight on these forums is if someone from Halo or LoL or COD comes in and claims to be better. Cause that douchebag is an idiot and fair game
But seriously! I LOVE STARCRAFT and anything related to it gets me pumped. I just hope May 20th will be as awesome as I expect it to be. And I hope I can watch it with my brother!
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
On May 14 2012 03:39 R3demption wrote: Ugh all this hate is hard to wade through.. I just want to know if this is going to be broadcasted for people outside of Korea or not.
But seriously, people come onto these forums looking for a fight, from both sides... BW and SC 2. Its annoying how there is two sides anyways... Its only going to divide us in the end. Can't we all just get along?
Can we all just agree that the StarCraft franchise, in all its glory, is better than any other game and our community is by far the most respected one out there? I could care less about a debate SC vs BW vs SC 2, because they're all great games and it comes down to individual opinion most of the time. And yes, BW veterans and fans, we love and respect you. You led the way for everything in SC 2 and RTS in general. If someone comes in here and disrespects you and your game from SC 2, trust me, they are just the vocal minority. Most of SC 2 fans acknowledge the greatness of BW. Fighting with the few trolls is pointless...
The only time I would expect us to fight on these forums is if someone from Halo or LoL or COD comes in and claims to be better. Cause that douchebag is an idiot and fair game
But seriously! I LOVE STARCRAFT and anything related to it gets me pumped. I just hope May 20th will be as awesome as I expect it to be. And I hope I can watch it with my brother!
Hear Hear! I also just jumped on because I realized I didn't properly give a shot out to Wolf and Khaldor - two guys I didn't know anything about before GSL but are fantastico supreme and deserve as much praise as everyone else I namedropped. Now back to watching the match I just started!
On May 14 2012 00:23 Aazean wrote: Immediately joined TL the moment I saw this. Quite exciting really, but I can't help but feel that it's a bit unfair to the players though... As much as they may (or may not) enjoy playing SC2 on the side, its quite a challenge to suddenly have such a huge shift like this. Not to mention that from the looks of it, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, you really don't have to win your BW games at all and still win the series? Just seems like too huge shift all of a sudden, especially for the players. =/
On the other hand, I'm really interested to see what comes of this, assuming they shift fully to SC2 after a while. Would be pretty awesome to see more teams participating in team leagues if it gets to that point. The SC2 fan in me definitely approves =D
With regards to the following however....
On May 13 2012 09:46 miercat wrote:
On May 13 2012 08:42 urashimakt wrote:
On May 13 2012 05:20 miercat wrote:
On May 13 2012 05:01 Bareleon wrote:
On May 13 2012 03:59 miercat wrote:
On May 12 2012 13:02 Bareleon wrote:
On May 12 2012 12:56 miercat wrote:
On May 12 2012 12:39 Bareleon wrote: [quote]
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
I think what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim" is that you provided no evidence in support of your claim that "BW offers more". By there being fundamental differences in gameplay, it doesn't automatically mean that one game offers more than the other, it just proves they're different. You didn't explain the reasoning behind that claim, that's why it's just seen as an opinion right now.
Personally though, I feel they are both equally competent. Maybe I'd be more inclined to be at awe for the stunts pulled off in BW as compared to SC2 but probably because BW is more mechanically demanding on the players with unit control not being the easiest thing to do and not to forget the lack of smart-casting.
I think there is an over-fetishizaton and overuse of "mechanics" as the main differentiator between SC2 and BW (and BW fans fall prey to this as well when comparing the two games). Both Starcrafts are strategy games foremost. I don't watch either because I want to see people play UMS micro games or select a bunch of buildings and press hotkeys. I cringe everytime a SC2 caster talks about "macro" games. All games require macro/micro/etc and it is silly to differentiate based on aspects of the game that are a given at the highest level. The reason I prefer BW is b/c tactically and strategically, it is much more developed and deep. SC2 has gotten better over two years, but not as much as hoped in the beginning. The reason why, for example, Bisu's PvZ is so sublime is because his decisions are flawless, his execution crisp, and his thinking prescient. Mechanics/multitask/micro are an ends to a mean, not the end itself.
I get the idea, but I was actually referring to unit control being harder in BW than in SC2. So much so I would be more in awe of a stunt pulled off in BW than if done in SC2. I suppose that qualifies as micro, lol..
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
I agree - if BW is completely done for, I truly hope that SC2 can take its place since after all, I LOVE Starcraft. I am horrible @ playing it but watching it over the years (has it really been six years now, damn) has played a huge impact over my life. I would have never known that I would follow Starcraft progamers and their teams face it off in awesome games shown almost on a daily basis. If I knew that BW is in its last phases (as a professional e-sport) then I would never have taken this scene for granted.
The biggest thing that makes me sad is that we will probably never see strategies evolve (especially BW TvZ, damn what a matchup) once the progamers make the switch.
The question is, will SC2 stand the test of time as its predecessor? We'll see.
A year ago I'd be excited for this. Right now I'm at most just curious. This is the final nail in the coffin for BW. But good luck to all the players in their matches BW and SC2. Go KT Rolster!
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
im sure he'd do anything to get a hold of that trophy.
Immediately joined TL the moment I saw this. Quite exciting really, but I can't help but feel that it's a bit unfair to the players though... As much as they may (or may not) enjoy playing SC2 on the side, its quite a challenge to suddenly have such a huge shift like this. Not to mention that from the looks of it, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, you really don't have to win your BW games at all and still win the series? Just seems like too huge shift all of a sudden, especially for the players. =/
On the other hand, I'm really interested to see what comes of this, assuming they shift fully to SC2 after a while. Would be pretty awesome to see more teams participating in team leagues if it gets to that point. The SC2 fan in me definitely approves =D
Saddening to see people like you who clearly don't know how much better SC2 can be. Only if you knew how epic BW games are... but it's okay, some people are satisfied enough with little.
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
I think what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim" is that you provided no evidence in support of your claim that "BW offers more". By there being fundamental differences in gameplay, it doesn't automatically mean that one game offers more than the other, it just proves they're different. You didn't explain the reasoning behind that claim, that's why it's just seen as an opinion right now.
Personally though, I feel they are both equally competent. Maybe I'd be more inclined to be at awe for the stunts pulled off in BW as compared to SC2 but probably because BW is more mechanically demanding on the players with unit control not being the easiest thing to do and not to forget the lack of smart-casting.
I agree on what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim." You are correct that fundamental differences in gameplay does not necessitate that one game offers more than another(this was not my line of reasoning, but for brevity's sake I chose that phrasing), however, in this case it is irrelevant, because BW does offer more, for other more substantial reasons:
I didn't provide the evidence, because by this point, it should be common knowledge, at least to anyone who has basic knowledge of the two games. Additionally, because there is such comprehensive evidence, it would take an excessively long post, to explain something that has been commented on in many places, and at length, specifically on this forum even. So whatever the case may be (lack of reading comprehension, lack of basic research) the other poster is not putting in the effort to make a useful post.
Essentially, you hit upon a couple of the key points (perhaps the most relevant) (micro, mechanics) . Obviously these points are not too difficult to comprehend, except for someone not putting in enough effort.
If I had to say something, to scratch the surface: If you lower the mechanical requirement (automining/MBS/...) and lower the micro requirement (smart casting/AI/clumping units/large unit selection capability/...) what is the consequence, in terms of gameplay/entertainment/competition at the highest level? I can tell that you understand the answer, but the thing is, the other poster should have understood/known already, as well.
The two games are not equally "demanding"(there is certainly evidence for this, do you know?); BW certainly has the capability to offer more, but other than that, I agree with your statements.
Immediately joined TL the moment I saw this. Quite exciting really, but I can't help but feel that it's a bit unfair to the players though... As much as they may (or may not) enjoy playing SC2 on the side, its quite a challenge to suddenly have such a huge shift like this. Not to mention that from the looks of it, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, you really don't have to win your BW games at all and still win the series? Just seems like too huge shift all of a sudden, especially for the players. =/
On the other hand, I'm really interested to see what comes of this, assuming they shift fully to SC2 after a while. Would be pretty awesome to see more teams participating in team leagues if it gets to that point. The SC2 fan in me definitely approves =D
With regards to the following however....
On May 13 2012 09:46 miercat wrote:
On May 13 2012 08:42 urashimakt wrote:
On May 13 2012 05:20 miercat wrote:
On May 13 2012 05:01 Bareleon wrote:
On May 13 2012 03:59 miercat wrote:
On May 12 2012 13:02 Bareleon wrote:
On May 12 2012 12:56 miercat wrote:
On May 12 2012 12:39 Bareleon wrote: [quote]
I am not surprised you would compare a complete game to a non-complete game. People have done it since July 2010.
Oh and flash said he enjoys SC2.
Whether the game is complete or not is irrelevant. SCII is fundamentally deficient in many, if not all of the categories that make BW such an entertaining spectator sport. You could throw in all the new units you want, balance the races perfectly, but unless the gameplay/game design is completely rebuilt, SCII will always be lacking in key respects. Could SCII be a lot better? - sure. Can it realistically become as good as BW? - not even close.
All this is just opinion. I can say SC2 is far better to watch than BW. That will be my opinion. Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!
Whether or not someone prefers to watch BW or SCII could be a personal "opinion." However, the fundamental differences between the games, and how these differences impact gameplay, competition, and entertainment, at the highest levels, is fact (essentially SCII is constrained in a number of areas). Whether you prefer it or not, BW at the highest level of competition, just offers "more" of essentially everything that SCII can offer.
I have watched a number of Pro SCII matches, over the course of ~1.5 years. I found them dull, lacking, graphically irritating to watch (looks like cartoon, poor unit design, poor overall race graphic design, spells look really bad(e.g. infested terran looks terrible, fungal growth and neural parasite look terrible), all the units clump, etc..... Just the graphics alone make it psychologically painful for me to watch. In terms of gameplay, it is just as bad.
It's not even really a case of SCII not being as good as BW - or SCII needing time to catch up, it's more like Pro BW is the most entertaining media ever created, and SCII is fundamentally so bad (in terms of graphics and gameplay- and consequently so limited) that I can't stand watching it.
Yes, if you prefer SCII over BW, that is your personal preference, but in that case, you prefer a watered down product, to say the least.
Dull? Ofcourse it will be dull for 1.5 years until people starts figuring out stuff. I did try to watch a pro BW match and to me it was more dull than watching a SC2 pro match.
A lot of fun units blziz is gonna be adding in HoTS and other stuff too for the races. Gonna be so awesome to watch pro games, even more awesome than WoL.
Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all, even if not completely informed.
You should just stop. You're being very silly.
You two reached a good point with the "it's just our opinions", but then you masqueraded your own very strong opinion as fact. "BW offers more" is an unsubstantiated claim on your part and "fungal growth, neural parasite, etc look terrible" is textbook opinion. Rewind to the part where you let each other be without trying to oppress.
You either lack the ability to effectively comprehend my response, or you simply didn`t put in enough effort.
"BW offers more" refers to the fundamental differences in gameplay, between the two games, and the consequences of those differences (SCII is constrained in many areas of gameplay), which is fact, not opinion.
My opinion on fungal growth, neural parasite, etc... was a direct response to the other poster's assertion - "Guess you never watched any pro sc2 matches. They are epic! I just watched huk vs sleep (pvz) that was an epic match!!," - but completely separate from the main point.
In other words, the fact that BW and SCII have fundamental differences, which ultimately result in BW being able to offer "more," is a fact that has been substantiated numerous times, however, whether you prefer to watch BW, or a watered down version of it, is completely up to the individual. Trying to oppress? To the contrary - my last post was: "Enjoy your watered down product - I'm not begrudging you that. It's a personal choice after all..."
Improve your reading comprehension, and you will not make such misguided/worthless/irrelevant posts in the future.
I think what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim" is that you provided no evidence in support of your claim that "BW offers more". By there being fundamental differences in gameplay, it doesn't automatically mean that one game offers more than the other, it just proves they're different. You didn't explain the reasoning behind that claim, that's why it's just seen as an opinion right now.
Personally though, I feel they are both equally competent. Maybe I'd be more inclined to be at awe for the stunts pulled off in BW as compared to SC2 but probably because BW is more mechanically demanding on the players with unit control not being the easiest thing to do and not to forget the lack of smart-casting.
I agree on what he meant by "unsubstantiated claim." I didn't provide the evidence, because by this point, it should be common knowledge, at least to anyone who has basic knowledge of the two games (if you don't have the knowledge, don't comment). Additionally, because there is such comprehensive evidence, it would take an excessively long post, to explain something that has been commented on in many places, and at length, specifically on this forum even. So whatever the case may be (lack of reading comprehension, lack of basic research) the other poster is not putting in the effort to make a useful post.
Essentially, you hit upon a couple of the key points (perhaps the most relevant) (micro, mechanics) . Obviously these points are not too difficult to comprehend, except for someone not putting in enough effort.
If I had to say something, to scratch the surface: If you lower the mechanical requirement (automining/MBS/...) and lower the micro requirement (smart casting/AI/clumping units/large unit selection capability/...) what is the consequence, in terms of gameplay/entertainment/competition at the highest level?
The two games are not equally "demanding"(there is certainly evidence for this do you know?); BW certainly has the capability to offer more, but other than that I agree with your statements.
To simply put, Brood War's units offered excitement in term of micromanagement. In SC2, the units are just plain uninspiring aside from certain circumstances. In BW, you have Reaver-shuttle micro, Storm-Shuttle, Corsair vs Scourge chases, Zealot bombs, Carrior on ledge micro, DT penetration. And that is only speaking of one single race. In StarCraft 2, Protoss only have the Stalker micro thing going on for the race while all other roles of plays are watered down.
Now with the incoming of HotS, I really do wish with the bottom of my heart that Dustin B. would exclude all prosaic unit out of the game and replace them with the intensity factor.
On May 14 2012 03:39 R3demption wrote: Ugh all this hate is hard to wade through.. I just want to know if this is going to be broadcasted for people outside of Korea or not.
But seriously, people come onto these forums looking for a fight, from both sides... BW and SC 2. Its annoying how there is two sides anyways... Its only going to divide us in the end. Can't we all just get along?
it's kinda like... sc2 fans just received one of those boxes that one gets in December, and for each day you eat a chocolate that counts down the days until Christmas: like this one- + Show Spoiler +
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=christmas+countdown+chocolate+calendar&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1333&bih=733&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=f3uwT9vWDI3XiQKcy5SWBA first couple pics
and for BW fans it's quite the opposite, like instead of eating a chocolate each day and being excited for the celebration of Christ and our eternal salvation, we get kicked in the balls each day and await impending doom
So of course sc2 fans are happy and celebrating, while BW fans are pissed off. It befuddles me why the newcomers on TL can't see why we would be pissed.
I for one will be looking forward to this, it will be amazing as always. On a site note, I think the mods of TL must be really hard hitting in the LR threads once the proleague starts. any argument between SC:BW and SC2 should be like instant ban for 5 days. The possibility for the thread getting completely derailed could get very high otherwise.
I can deal with the change (a bit... but i feel my heart leaving this scene... ) but one thing irks me terribly... korean version of starcraft? I thought it was understood and agreed upon that they'd use the English version... that utterly sucks for me (i'm korean too but I would have preferred English over Korean any day)
Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
Oh then I'll toss it in there thanks for tip.
Mutas + Devourers = aerial rape. Devourers slow the enemy airship's attack rate. Additionally, it applies an debuff, which makes the affected unit take 1 more damage. This might not be much, but when there are 9 debuffs on a unit, he will take 9 more damage per attack. A mutalisk makes 9-3-1 damage with it's glaive worm. Now imagine a single muta shooting at three corsairs that have nine stacks of violet goo on them. The mutalisk will deal 18-12-10 damage per attack.
On May 14 2012 18:16 Manimal_pro wrote: it's so hard for me to decide if I am going to root for KT Rolster or SKT T1
another sad thing about this season, ts really impossible to write a "Why Team X will win this season" thread because we have no idea how the players do in SC2.
On May 14 2012 19:31 BLinD-RawR wrote: another sad thing about this season, ts really impossible to write a "Why Team X will win this season" thread because we have no idea how the players do in SC2.
Somewhat intersting aspect is that the players and teams do not know either. I would think that season after season of competeing, teams learned what players are good at what and when they are likely to be played on what map. But from my understanding, not even players who are friends talk about their abilities or likes and dislikes outside of the team. They are just as blind.
this is like a scene out of Waking Life.. Where is a light switch, i need to know if this is real or a dream -.- im heartbroken. I guess as long as Turn still tears it up in Sc:Bw I can live with only Bo3 for Sc:Bw games, dunno what im going todo during those 3 games for that other game they are showing.. I mean really, its called starcraft too. Like Hey guys, Im StarCraft too i sware.. Just shows desperation for sales.,
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
It would mean a lot to his fans <3
Uhhh, not really. It'd kind of be like one of those events where people will go "Yeah, he won an....OSL?" But does that really mean anything when the OSL is about SC2?
Really? Have Bisu fans stooped so low as to say "ANY OSL WILL DO. JUST WIN ONE."
If that's the case, I'll just stop talking because I'm just going to laugh. Oh Zow.....if only you read things like this.
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
im sure he'd do anything to get a hold of that trophy.
Yeah. Doesn't stop it from being meaningless though.
On May 14 2012 19:31 BLinD-RawR wrote: another sad thing about this season, ts really impossible to write a "Why Team X will win this season" thread because we have no idea how the players do in SC2.
Rumors are Woongjin Stars are doing great in SC2, and they were quite strong in BW last season too. If they manage to make more successful use of Light and free, and sHy fully explodes + they all seem very pissed for missing the bar with equal points, so.... I think a why Stars will win thread would sound pretty reasonable at this point.
On May 14 2012 20:55 sGs.Stregon wrote: this is like a scene out of Waking Life.. Where is a light switch, i need to know if this is real or a dream -.- im heartbroken. I guess as long as Turn still tears it up in Sc:Bw I can live with only Bo3 for Sc:Bw games, dunno what im going todo during those 3 games for that other game they are showing.. I mean really, its called starcraft too. Like Hey guys, Im StarCraft too i sware.. Just shows desperation for sales.,
This format doesn't even make sense, BO3 BW and BO3 sc2 with ace match sc2? Also I dont understand what they mean when a team wins 2-0 in a bo3 then the last players are recorded as having played???? what does that even mean? This is way too confusing lol.
You don't choose a team to root for, you grow attached to one of them. It's like friends, you don't handpick a friend, friendship just happen. Each one of us has a story behind why we root for the team in our signature.
Yeah, any tournament related to SC2 is infinitely less prestigious than any BW tournament, winning a 'SC2 OSL' is not the same thing than winning a real OSL. Bisu never won (T_T) and never will win a real OSL, that's a fact.
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
It would mean a lot to his fans <3
Uhhh, not really. It'd kind of be like one of those events where people will go "Yeah, he won an....OSL?" But does that really mean anything when the OSL is about SC2?
Really? Have Bisu fans stooped so low as to say "ANY OSL WILL DO. JUST WIN ONE."
If that's the case, I'll just stop talking because I'm just going to laugh. Oh Zow.....if only you read things like this.
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
im sure he'd do anything to get a hold of that trophy.
Yeah. Doesn't stop it from being meaningless though.
I don't see why Bisu fans would be so cynical. Fans love seeing their idols win. Even Grubby fans from WC3 are happy when they see him win SC2 events. Grubby isn't exactly top tier, even for foreigners, but he has a huge fanbase in SC2 because of all the fans he carried over from his WC days.
If Bisu does win a SC2 OSL, I don't think the fan's thoughts are "ANY OSL WILL DO. JUST WIN ONE". They are happy for him for winning a prestigous tourney that has people the likes of Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, etc. (Sorry, English isn't my first language T_T).
On May 14 2012 22:50 PurePwnageofTerran wrote: This format doesn't even make sense, BO3 BW and BO3 sc2 with ace match sc2? Also I dont understand what they mean when a team wins 2-0 in a bo3 then the last players are recorded as having played???? what does that even mean? This is way too confusing lol.
The recorded withouth playing thing is important because players need to play both games. Let me try to ilustrate with an example:
CJ - KT in BW Effort - Stats Hydra - Mind Leta - Hoejja
then in SCtoo (lol if this becomes a trend) Horang2 - Flash Snow - Action Rush - CH
In the second round, lets say CJ vs SKT, the 3 players that were listed for BW in week 1, can't be listed in BW vs SKT, they need to be listed for SC2 to be able to play BW again. So in week 2 if they play SC2, then in week 3 they can play BW again, if in week 2 they don't play (or play in the ace match only, I believe the ace match doesn't count as a SC2 match, it is special) in week 3 they still cant play BW. The samething happens in the opposite case. Players who play SC2 in week 1 need to play BW next week (or whatever week they play after if they're in a deep team) in order to be able to play SC2 again. Everyone will go BW-SC2-BW..... or SCtoo-BW-SCtoo....
So that means that even if you dont play but you are registered, it counts. For instance if CJ wins all sctoo games 2-0, and effort is listed everyother week as the third sc2 player, we will only see effort play bw because his sc2 games weren't needed due to CJ being awesome
On May 14 2012 22:50 PurePwnageofTerran wrote: This format doesn't even make sense, BO3 BW and BO3 sc2 with ace match sc2? Also I dont understand what they mean when a team wins 2-0 in a bo3 then the last players are recorded as having played???? what does that even mean? This is way too confusing lol.
The recorded withouth playing thing is important because players need to play both games. Let me try to ilustrate with an example:
CJ - KT in BW Effort - Stats Hydra - Mind Leta - Hoejja
then in SCtoo (lol if this becomes a trend) Horang2 - Flash Snow - Action Rush - CH
In the second round, lets say CJ vs SKT, the 3 players that were listed for BW in week 1, can't be listed in BW vs SKT, they need to be listed for SC2 to be able to play BW again. So in week 2 if they play SC2, then in week 3 they can play BW again, if in week 2 they don't play (or play in the ace match only, I believe the ace match doesn't count as a SC2 match, it is special) in week 3 they still cant play BW. The samething happens in the opposite case. Players who play SC2 in week 1 need to play BW next week (or whatever week they play after if they're in a deep team) in order to be able to play SC2 again. Everyone will go BW-SC2-BW..... or SCtoo-BW-SCtoo....
So that means that even if you dont play but you are registered, it counts. For instance if CJ wins all sctoo games 2-0, and effort is listed everyother week as the third sc2 player, we will only see effort play bw because his sc2 games weren't needed due to CJ being awesome
I hope this helps =/
Ahhhhh, what was once gray is now crystal clear, thnx man -__-
On May 14 2012 22:50 PurePwnageofTerran wrote: This format doesn't even make sense, BO3 BW and BO3 sc2 with ace match sc2? Also I dont understand what they mean when a team wins 2-0 in a bo3 then the last players are recorded as having played???? what does that even mean? This is way too confusing lol.
The recorded withouth playing thing is important because players need to play both games. Let me try to ilustrate with an example:
CJ - KT in BW Effort - Stats Hydra - Mind Leta - Hoejja
then in SCtoo (lol if this becomes a trend) Horang2 - Flash Snow - Action Rush - CH
In the second round, lets say CJ vs SKT, the 3 players that were listed for BW in week 1, can't be listed in BW vs SKT, they need to be listed for SC2 to be able to play BW again. So in week 2 if they play SC2, then in week 3 they can play BW again, if in week 2 they don't play (or play in the ace match only, I believe the ace match doesn't count as a SC2 match, it is special) in week 3 they still cant play BW. The samething happens in the opposite case. Players who play SC2 in week 1 need to play BW next week (or whatever week they play after if they're in a deep team) in order to be able to play SC2 again. Everyone will go BW-SC2-BW..... or SCtoo-BW-SCtoo....
So that means that even if you dont play but you are registered, it counts. For instance if CJ wins all sctoo games 2-0, and effort is listed everyother week as the third sc2 player, we will only see effort play bw because his sc2 games weren't needed due to CJ being awesome
I hope this helps =/
Ahhhhh, what was once gray is now crystal clear, thnx man -__-
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
It would mean a lot to his fans <3
Uhhh, not really. It'd kind of be like one of those events where people will go "Yeah, he won an....OSL?" But does that really mean anything when the OSL is about SC2?
Really? Have Bisu fans stooped so low as to say "ANY OSL WILL DO. JUST WIN ONE."
If that's the case, I'll just stop talking because I'm just going to laugh. Oh Zow.....if only you read things like this.
On May 14 2012 11:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:
On May 14 2012 09:57 Zergneedsfood wrote:
On May 14 2012 04:30 fabiano wrote: I'm not a veteran.
I will follow the SC2 SPL, at least for a while. I expect it to be very boring, but here I am giving yet another chance for SC2 to show me that it can be at least half exciting as BW.
I've given countless chances for SC2, my patience is running low though.
Edit: btw, if BW has to go, then I truly want SC2 to become good, I want to continue watching SKT1 roflstomping KT in every SPL. I want to keep seeing Fantasy TvTs, Bisu winning OSL.
You do know that Bisu winning OSLs in SC2 will be meaningless, right?
im sure he'd do anything to get a hold of that trophy.
Yeah. Doesn't stop it from being meaningless though.
I don't see why Bisu fans would be so cynical. Fans love seeing their idols win. Even Grubby fans from WC3 are happy when they see him win SC2 events. Grubby isn't exactly top tier, even for foreigners, but he has a huge fanbase in SC2 because of all the fans he carried over from his WC days.
If Bisu does win a SC2 OSL, I don't think the fan's thoughts are "ANY OSL WILL DO. JUST WIN ONE". They are happy for him for winning a prestigous tourney that has people the likes of Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, etc. (Sorry, English isn't my first language T_T).
The point is that winning an OSL in a different game is pretty pointless. There's no story.
Now, if Bisu lost like....20 OSLs in SC2 in a row, maybe....but then I might just laugh instead of rooting for him to win.
On May 14 2012 03:55 R3demption wrote: Can we all just agree that the StarCraft franchise, in all its glory, is better than any other game and our community is by far the most respected one out there? I could care less about a debate SC vs BW vs SC 2, because they're all great games and it comes down to individual opinion most of the time.
No. SC2 is not a great game yet. It is a good game. Respect and kindness are good, but they won't make SC2 a better game.
I don't give a crap about esports if I can't watch the a game I love. SC2 needs more harass, more 1 shots, more splash, more unit spacing, more really fast units, more ability to do moving shot micro, more good maps, and most of all it needs better unit/race design that rewards tech for all races and has a nice back and forth tension during a game.
On May 14 2012 03:55 R3demption wrote: Can we all just agree that the StarCraft franchise, in all its glory, is better than any other game and our community is by far the most respected one out there? I could care less about a debate SC vs BW vs SC 2, because they're all great games and it comes down to individual opinion most of the time.
No. SC2 is not a great game yet. It is a bad game. Respect and kindness are good, but they won't make SC2 a better game.
I don't give a crap about esports if I can't watch the a game I love. SC2 needs more harass, more 1 shots, more splash, more unit spacing, more really fast units, more ability to do moving shot micro, more good maps, and most of all it needs better unit/race design that rewards tech for all races and has a nice back and forth tension during a game.
On May 14 2012 03:55 R3demption wrote: Can we all just agree that the StarCraft franchise, in all its glory, is better than any other game and our community is by far the most respected one out there? I could care less about a debate SC vs BW vs SC 2, because they're all great games and it comes down to individual opinion most of the time.
No. SC2 is not a great game yet. It is a bad game. Respect and kindness are good, but they won't make SC2 a better game.
I don't give a crap about esports if I can't watch the a game I love. SC2 needs more harass, more 1 shots, more splash, more unit spacing, more really fast units, more ability to do moving shot micro, more good maps, and most of all it needs better unit/race design that rewards tech for all races and has a nice back and forth tension during a game.
I fixed it a little bit.
exactly..
in my opinion, SC2 is made too good.. I mean in terms of it not having any bugs or glitches to exploit..
also the pathing AI is too good, making all those ball like armies.
and there is hardly any random stuff in SC2 while in BW its also the randomness that made it exciting.. (stupid scarabs, mines, etc..)
they still have a LOOOOOOOOONG way to match BW greatness, and I wouldnt be so sure if they ever reach it anyways..
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
Oh then I'll toss it in there thanks for tip.
Mutas + Devourers = aerial rape. Devourers slow the enemy airship's attack rate. Additionally, it applies an debuff, which makes the affected unit take 1 more damage. This might not be much, but when there are 9 debuffs on a unit, he will take 9 more damage per attack. A mutalisk makes 9-3-1 damage with it's glaive worm. Now imagine a single muta shooting at three corsairs that have nine stacks of violet goo on them. The mutalisk will deal 18-12-10 damage per attack.
Lol this doesnt make any sense..... If devour/muta combo is so called "aerial rape" then how come I hardly ever see it used. You would think something that rapes would be used more often like seige tanks/vulture combo. it's so hard for me to decide if I am going to root for KT Rolster or SKT T1
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
Oh then I'll toss it in there thanks for tip.
Mutas + Devourers = aerial rape. Devourers slow the enemy airship's attack rate. Additionally, it applies an debuff, which makes the affected unit take 1 more damage. This might not be much, but when there are 9 debuffs on a unit, he will take 9 more damage per attack. A mutalisk makes 9-3-1 damage with it's glaive worm. Now imagine a single muta shooting at three corsairs that have nine stacks of violet goo on them. The mutalisk will deal 18-12-10 damage per attack.
On May 14 2012 18:16 Manimal_pro wrote:
Lol this doesnt make any sense..... If devour/muta combo is so called "aerial rape" then how come I hardly ever see it used. You would think something that rapes would be used more often like seige tanks/vulture combo. it's so hard for me to decide if I am going to root for KT Rolster or SKT T1
Root for KT.
Lol this doesnt make any sense..... If devour/muta combo is so called "aerial rape" then how come I hardly ever see it used. You would think something that rapes would be used more often like seige tanks/vulture combo.
On May 14 2012 13:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Slightly off topic, but I didn't think this deserved it own thread:
I played quite a bit of BW, but I never quite understood at what point the devourer becomes useful. I've read the wiki on it, but the unit felt so bulky and shot so slow that it just seemed like waste. I understand maybe a couple of them, but science vessels for example have more of a usefull role then they do. Or am I way off?
(For the record I was never uber competitive in traditional BW, though I did play. I sunk most of my hours in UMS or Custom games.)
you could as in the simple questions simple answers thread
well, for one, their spores slow the attack speed of other air units too when stacked. they have a lot of hp too so they dont go down easily
Oh then I'll toss it in there thanks for tip.
Mutas + Devourers = aerial rape. Devourers slow the enemy airship's attack rate. Additionally, it applies an debuff, which makes the affected unit take 1 more damage. This might not be much, but when there are 9 debuffs on a unit, he will take 9 more damage per attack. A mutalisk makes 9-3-1 damage with it's glaive worm. Now imagine a single muta shooting at three corsairs that have nine stacks of violet goo on them. The mutalisk will deal 18-12-10 damage per attack.
On May 14 2012 18:16 Manimal_pro wrote:
Lol this doesnt make any sense..... If devour/muta combo is so called "aerial rape" then how come I hardly ever see it used. You would think something that rapes would be used more often like seige tanks/vulture combo. it's so hard for me to decide if I am going to root for KT Rolster or SKT T1
Root for KT.
Lol this doesnt make any sense..... If devour/muta combo is so called "aerial rape" then how come I hardly ever see it used. You would think something that rapes would be used more often like seige tanks/vulture combo.
because bw hardly goes into air vs air
it usually happens in TvT (BC/wraith/valk vs BC/wraith/valk) ZvP not much (sairs vs muta/scourge, hardly any devourers) ZvZ late game but rare too since it hardly goes late game
but muta/devourer combo rapes, just like what the previous poster has explained
EPT
!
Ace match in SC2 still bothers me a bit, would've been nice if the teams could somehow decide what game the ace match is being played in.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qVfzJ.jpg)
