On April 26 2012 01:17 wassbix wrote: *flashback of reaver instafiring from shuttle unload* As a toss player those were good times.
Guys, guys, we don't want bronze leaguers looking at their base and finding all their workers gone. So we're going to remove all fast harass/imba splash units from the game. Too bad those types of units were the key to success and excitement in BW.
Storm drops still do that easily. There is plenty of drop play thats viable. Come on. I'm all for BW but at least get your facts straight dude. Not helping the BW fan image.
Well. Sorta. What does it take 3 or 4 storms to do what BW does in 1 or 2? It's there, but in a less interesting form due to unit clumping and smart casting.
On April 26 2012 01:17 wassbix wrote: *flashback of reaver instafiring from shuttle unload* As a toss player those were good times.
Guys, guys, we don't want bronze leaguers looking at their base and finding all their workers gone. So we're going to remove all fast harass/imba splash units from the game. Too bad those types of units were the key to success and excitement in BW.
Storm drops still do that easily. There is plenty of drop play thats viable. Come on. I'm all for BW but at least get your facts straight dude. Not helping the BW fan image.
Well. Sorta. What does it take 3 or 4 storms to do what BW does in 1 or 2? It's there, but in a less interesting form due to unit clumping and smart casting.
Although storm isnt the same.. Protoss can drop the HT's in your main, followed by landing their prism((because their transport also serves as a pylon, just without adding supply)) and warping in an attack force.. Yes their storm is weaker, but i think they have ways to make up for it.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
The only 1A non micro battle I see in BW is muta vs muta expecially when it reaches 12-15+.
All the rest is micro bases, even the last zergling and marine.
HAHAHA, do you know who Jaedong is? Also you can select only 12 units in BW, so no 1A.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
The only 1A non micro battle I see in BW is muta vs muta expecially when it reaches 12-15+.
All the rest is micro bases, even the last zergling and marine.
HAHAHA, do you know who Jaedong is? Also you can select only 12 units in BW, so no 1A.
And technically you only group 11 mutas, the last spot is an overlord when you are stacking.
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
The only 1A non micro battle I see in BW is muta vs muta expecially when it reaches 12-15+.
All the rest is micro bases, even the last zergling and marine.
Yup and micro in zvz is super super important. No such thing as 1A2A3A/etc zvz, or really any match up
HAHAHA, do you know who Jaedong is? Also you can select only 12 units in BW, so no 1A.
And technically you only group 11 mutas, the last spot is an overlord when you are stacking.
Wow my post didn't go. What I said here was zvz was very micro intensive and no idea what that guy was talking about with 1a lol.
On April 26 2012 01:17 wassbix wrote: *flashback of reaver instafiring from shuttle unload* As a toss player those were good times.
Guys, guys, we don't want bronze leaguers looking at their base and finding all their workers gone. So we're going to remove all fast harass/imba splash units from the game. Too bad those types of units were the key to success and excitement in BW.
Storm drops still do that easily. There is plenty of drop play thats viable. Come on. I'm all for BW but at least get your facts straight dude. Not helping the BW fan image.
Well. Sorta. What does it take 3 or 4 storms to do what BW does in 1 or 2? It's there, but in a less interesting form due to unit clumping and smart casting.
Although storm isnt the same.. Protoss can drop the HT's in your main, followed by landing their prism((because their transport also serves as a pylon, just without adding supply)) and warping in an attack force.. Yes their storm is weaker, but i think they have ways to make up for it.
In BW it's 8 volleys of 14 damage (112 total) over 7 seconds (1 tick right when it's casted then another tick every second). In SC2 it's 80 damage over 4 seconds (10 every 1/2 second). So damage wise. BW:---14-----14--------28--------28--------42--------42--------56--------56---------70----------------84----------------98----------------112 SC2:---0------10--------20--------30--------40--------50--------60--------70---------80 Time:--0------0.5--------1--------1.5--------2---------2.5--------3----------3.5---------4---------------- 5------------------6-----------------7 In BW though it's possible to cover the entire area of workers mining a typical 8 minerals patch with 2 storms and be sure to kill them all if the opponent doesn't move them. In SC2 you would need at least 3 and since it's much easier to move workers / units out of them due to improved AI and pathing it's not used nearly as much. In BW overlapping storms you can kill any ground unit that isn't an archon or ultralisk in 2 casts, and most light ground units in 1 cast (hydralisks / zerglings and workers being the most significant)
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Did, did you just link the same thread, in the thread?
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
On April 20 2012 22:54 GerBanana wrote: "Flash made it into Masters without knwowing what his units did?! Next season GM without even hotkeying anything or using hotkeys? He is just so godly.
banana
That second meme has already pretty much been proven by SC2 koreans (And some foreigners aswell i think). Just to prove that apm means nothing they've beaten SC2 top master players with only a mouse.
what are you talking about? links or it didn't happen.
The only relevant thing i know of was at an mlg where losira put up a pretty okay fight with just his mouse after his keyboard went out and the admins couldn't understand what he wanted.
Here's a free VOD of DRG beating an NA diamond player on the NA server (meaning some lag for DRG), and using chopsticks in his off-hand to touch the keyboard, instead of his fingers, while playing the most mechanically intensive race in SC2. The gulf between "Masters" and even "B-teamer" is pretty significant. Being masters in SC2 is not at all comparable to being A- in ICCUP.
And even in a more APM-intensive game, I'm fairly confident Flash could beat any ICCUP B+ player using only a mouse, too.
Also, Losira lost that mouse-only game. Against InControl.
The most mechanically intensive race in SC2 is arguable i'd say.
No, not really. SC2 Zerg has the larva inject mechanic, which is the closest to BW macro because using MBS to do it is strictly worse than manually injecting them all at 25 energy even when they're not synced up in the timing (One of the reasons people thought Aria was a BW pro was because he had all his queens injecting at different times and keeping them under 30 energy). SC2 zerg also has the creep spread mechanic, which is one of the few things in SC2 where pros can impress, both because it's a lot of tumors all over the map, and it janks your hotkeys if you try to be lazy with it. DRG was consistently running 12 creep tumors at the last MLG, and the barcraft I was at was legit impressed because, unlike so much of SC2's macro, that's actually really hard to do.
SC2 Zerg also gets the least benefit from MBS, and is the most penalized for 1Aing the whole army because they're dependent on flanks to a much greater extant (and having infestors on the same hotkey as your army is basically throwing them away). That's why so many of the BW people who went to SC2 did so as Zerg, and why TL's SC2 board was like 80% Zerg for a while. This is also the explicit reason Idra switched to Zerg in SC2, because he felt it was the race that rewarded mechanics the most (since Artosis was the one who told him this, I think Artosis agreed). He then proceeded to spend the next year and a half saying SC2 was a terrible game because he lost a lot, but still. The difference between BW Terran and SC2 Terran, or BW Protoss and SC2 Protoss, is pretty fucking huge. BW Zerg to SC2 is still mechanically easier, but not nearly as much of a difference. If Terran and Protoss were as mechanically hard as Zerg (to macro), the game would be massively improved.
Yeah, I know, Terran drops and splits, and Protoss.....Terran has drops and marine splits, but just general purpose macro is much more of an APM sink for Zerg than SC2 Protoss/Terran.
On April 26 2012 22:35 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:35 Caihead wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:29 Hiea wrote: Top pros micro a lot better than what you give them credit for in 4. Ling / Baneling is an example where even though the speed of those are so insanely fast, people can still split up 1 ling while doing everything else, sniping caster units with a small amount of units.
Protoss is most prominent to 1a, but its been figured out.
There was a time when Broodlords were auto win with 1a, then people figured them out, dropping, attacking where broodlords are not, and when the engagement comes, spreading is important for both sides in most cases.
if you 1a vs a good player who can micro, your gonna lose.
You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.
The only 1A non micro battle I see in BW is muta vs muta expecially when it reaches 12-15+.
All the rest is micro bases, even the last zergling and marine.
That's because you're not paying attention. BW ZvZ at a high level is actually pretty micro intensive. It's just ugly looking because it's two blobs of mutas flying in circles next to each other, but it's actually pretty hard, especially to focus-fire.
Respectfully disagree. Zerg requires literally zero mechanics to actually build units. You can literally hold R for roach spam.
Terrans have to hold a! Poor babies.
Also, Zerg need to go to wherever their creep tumors are to make them (you can't use hotkeys). So we go to out "base" way more than Terran does, and our 'base" is all over the map. DRG makes 12 tumors every thirty seconds lategame, manually, which is the only macro mechanic in the game that even belongs in the same room as BW because of how hard it is, especially when Terran and Toss kill that creep off all the time. .
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
Dude regardless of their playing ability, their notion of gameplay as professional gamers are much more enhanced than the ones of an average Joe. They full comprehend how to design a game that is suitable to carry the torch of Electronic Sports.
Seriously would anyone rather a group of knowledgeable guys who themselves have experienced and understand the ins and out of the undisputable most competive RTS game ever created in the history of mankind. Or would you want to have someone like Dustin Browder who took away the single most important component of making a viable gaming model, the LAN support.
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
Dude regardless of their playing ability, their notion of gameplay as professional gamers are much more enhanced than the ones of an average Joe. They full comprehend how to design a game that is suitable to carry the torch of Electronic Sports.
Seriously would anyone rather a group of knowledgeable guys who themselves have experienced and understand the ins and out of the undisputable most competive RTS game ever created in the history of mankind. Or would you want to have someone like Dustin Browder who took away the single most important component of making a viable gaming model, the LAN support.
Problem is regardless of how much knowledge the players may have, they have reporter's bias, what you should be asking is for the coaching staff of KT / SKT / Khan (lol) etc to be doing balancing. Regardless of how good a player is you should never ask him to be the referee of the game while he is still a professional player, let alone change the rules. Even if the players are perfectly unbiased in the game design changes, it's still knowledge as well as pressure that compromises the integrity of the games that he's involved in. At best you should be asking retired players like iloveoov to give their opinions.
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
Dude regardless of their playing ability, their notion of gameplay as professional gamers are much more enhanced than the ones of an average Joe. They full comprehend how to design a game that is suitable to carry the torch of Electronic Sports.
Seriously would anyone rather a group of knowledgeable guys who themselves have experienced and understand the ins and out of the undisputable most competive RTS game ever created in the history of mankind. Or would you want to have someone like Dustin Browder who took away the single most important component of making a viable gaming model, the LAN support.
lol i dont think the ability to play games well directly corresponds to being a great game designer like at all.
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
Dude regardless of their playing ability, their notion of gameplay as professional gamers are much more enhanced than the ones of an average Joe. They full comprehend how to design a game that is suitable to carry the torch of Electronic Sports.
Seriously would anyone rather a group of knowledgeable guys who themselves have experienced and understand the ins and out of the undisputable most competive RTS game ever created in the history of mankind. Or would you want to have someone like Dustin Browder who took away the single most important component of making a viable gaming model, the LAN support.
Problem is regardless of how much knowledge the players may have, they have reporter's bias, what you should be asking is for the coaching staff of KT / SKT / Khan (lol) etc to be doing balancing. Regardless of how good a player is you should never ask him to be the referee of the game while he is still a professional player, let alone change the rules. Even if the players are perfectly unbiased in the game design changes, it's still knowledge as well as pressure that compromises the integrity of the games that he's involved in. At best you should be asking retired players like iloveoov to give their opinions.
Cs 1.6 and source professional players are giving their feed back to cs go and that to me is excellent because they involve the community in the development of the game . Unlike Dustin bowder and friend .... when sen ask for improvement he blatantly just face palm sen with " Don't like sc2 , Go play BW " . Thank god I will be going back to counter strike scene when cs go is released . Ksharp and friends it has been a long time ...
Some of the coaches consider it partly the korean bw scene's fault that it's come to this. I just hope whatever comes after sc2 will be more like bw. Maybe by then blizzard and kespa will have both learned enough hard lessons to do it right from the ground up.
Blizzard should just get all the TBLS together to have a conference on how to make the game better. Oh better yet, fire that Dustin Browder guy and then get the TBLS as the lead designers and the rest of the A-teamers be the testers!
The TBLS have made major mistakes in different eras of their play too, not to mention the meta gaming is dependent vastly on the maps and map making even more so than just units once the game stabilizes enough. There's still 2 expansions to SC2, too early.
Dude regardless of their playing ability, their notion of gameplay as professional gamers are much more enhanced than the ones of an average Joe. They full comprehend how to design a game that is suitable to carry the torch of Electronic Sports.
Seriously would anyone rather a group of knowledgeable guys who themselves have experienced and understand the ins and out of the undisputable most competive RTS game ever created in the history of mankind. Or would you want to have someone like Dustin Browder who took away the single most important component of making a viable gaming model, the LAN support.
Problem is regardless of how much knowledge the players may have, they have reporter's bias, what you should be asking is for the coaching staff of KT / SKT / Khan (lol) etc to be doing balancing. Regardless of how good a player is you should never ask him to be the referee of the game while he is still a professional player, let alone change the rules. Even if the players are perfectly unbiased in the game design changes, it's still knowledge as well as pressure that compromises the integrity of the games that he's involved in. At best you should be asking retired players like iloveoov to give their opinions.
Cs 1.6 and source professional players are giving their feed back to cs go and that to me is excellent because they involve the community in the development of the game . Unlike Dustin bowder and friend .... when sen ask for improvement he blatantly just face palm sen with " Don't like sc2 , Go play BW " . Thank god I will be going back to counter strike scene when cs go is released . Ksharp and friends it has been a long time ...
thank you SO MUCH for bringing up the CS:GO example. I just found out about that a week ago, and already the dev team has implemented some requested changes. The developers are working DIRECTLY with PROS to change thinks WEEKLY. What the hell is taking Browder so long to figure out how to improve SC2? The answer is not abduct, or replicate, I'll tell you that.
Can we make illustrative videos like the CS ones to present to Browder? Clearly he doesn't quite get the full picture.
IDEAS: Vulture Moving shot harass near workers while being chased Mutalisk Moving shot micro Zealot mine dragging Carrier micro over a chasm Marines dodging lurkers Reaver Drop killing everything Reaver drop doing nothing Arbiters stasis Tanks killing tier 1 units with no hp Games that reward teching and macro over all-ins
EPT
. Ksharp and friends it has been a long time ... 
