BW Head Coaches on SC2 - Page 55

On April 26 2012 07:37 Random_Guy09 wrote:


That second meme has already pretty much been proven by SC2 koreans (And some foreigners aswell i think). Just to prove that apm means nothing they've beaten SC2 top master players with only a mouse.

On April 26 2012 12:44 sc14s wrote:

what are you talking about? links or it didn't happen.

The only relevant thing i know of was at an mlg where losira put up a pretty okay fight with just his mouse after his keyboard went out and the admins couldn't understand what he wanted.

On April 26 2012 13:21 Ribbon wrote:


Here's a free VOD of DRG beating an NA diamond player on the NA server (meaning some lag for DRG), and using chopsticks in his off-hand to touch the keyboard, instead of his fingers, while playing the most mechanically intensive race in SC2. The gulf between "Masters" and even "B-teamer" is pretty significant. Being masters in SC2 is not at all comparable to being A- in ICCUP.

And even in a more APM-intensive game, I'm fairly confident Flash could beat any ICCUP B+ player using only a mouse, too.

Also, Losira lost that mouse-only game. Against InControl.

On April 26 2012 13:21 Ribbon wrote:


Here's a free VOD of DRG beating an NA diamond player on the NA server (meaning some lag for DRG), and using chopsticks in his off-hand to touch the keyboard, instead of his fingers, while playing the most mechanically intensive race in SC2. The gulf between "Masters" and even "B-teamer" is pretty significant. Being masters in SC2 is not at all comparable to being A- in ICCUP.

And even in a more APM-intensive game, I'm fairly confident Flash could beat any ICCUP B+ player using only a mouse, too.

Also, Losira lost that mouse-only game. Against InControl.

On April 26 2012 13:21 Ribbon wrote:


Here's a free VOD of DRG beating an NA diamond player on the NA server (meaning some lag for DRG), and using chopsticks in his off-hand to touch the keyboard, instead of his fingers, while playing the most mechanically intensive race in SC2. The gulf between "Masters" and even "B-teamer" is pretty significant. Being masters in SC2 is not at all comparable to being A- in ICCUP.

And even in a more APM-intensive game, I'm fairly confident Flash could beat any ICCUP B+ player using only a mouse, too.

Also, Losira lost that mouse-only game. Against InControl.

On April 25 2012 04:35 Caihead wrote:


You don't understand though, there exist situations in SC2 where the optimal solution is to 1A because like I said, the apm is better spent doing other things such as macroing, building, or microing other groups because you gain almost nothing for microing the units once you hit a level of dps. There is literally no reason in alot of cases to micro individual zergling / baneling groups against marine tank once you set up their pathing because of how the game is paced. Again I said situations where micro is prevalent do exist in SC2 but usually in early - mid game. There's almost no situation in BW where 1Aing can become the optimal solution.

On April 26 2012 19:54 Darksoldierr wrote:



Well, anyone who was decent in BW ( C- and above ) belongs to Masters. A diamond player is just a D or worse, beating him without keyboard isn't that big of a deal
Being in Master league isn't that big of an achivment, maybe on the Korean server, but i never played on that, so cannot say anything about it

On April 26 2012 19:56 huehuehuehue wrote:

The most mechanically intensive race in SC2 is arguable i'd say.

On April 26 2012 22:35 Abort Retry Fail wrote:

The only 1A non micro battle I see in BW is muta vs muta expecially when it reaches 12-15+.

All the rest is micro bases, even the last zergling and marine.

On April 27 2012 00:44 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
If this happens, the whole korean Starcraft scene will becaome sadder and more obscure than Counter Strike.

On April 27 2012 00:12 Ribbon wrote:


No, not really. SC2 Zerg has the larva inject mechanic, which is the closest to BW macro because using MBS to do it is strictly worse than manually injecting them all at 25 energy even when they're not synced up in the timing (One of the reasons people thought Aria was a BW pro was because he had all his queens injecting at different times and keeping them under 30 energy). SC2 zerg also has the creep spread mechanic, which is one of the few things in SC2 where pros can impress, both because it's a lot of tumors all over the map, and it janks your hotkeys if you try to be lazy with it. DRG was consistently running 12 creep tumors at the last MLG, and the barcraft I was at was legit impressed because, unlike so much of SC2's macro, that's actually really hard to do.

SC2 Zerg also gets the least benefit from MBS, and is the most penalized for 1Aing the whole army because they're dependent on flanks to a much greater extant (and having infestors on the same hotkey as your army is basically throwing them away). That's why so many of the BW people who went to SC2 did so as Zerg, and why TL's SC2 board was like 80% Zerg for a while. This is also the explicit reason Idra switched to Zerg in SC2, because he felt it was the race that rewarded mechanics the most (since Artosis was the one who told him this, I think Artosis agreed). He then proceeded to spend the next year and a half saying SC2 was a terrible game because he lost a lot, but still. The difference between BW Terran and SC2 Terran, or BW Protoss and SC2 Protoss, is pretty fucking huge. BW Zerg to SC2 is still mechanically easier, but not nearly as much of a difference. If Terran and Protoss were as mechanically hard as Zerg (to macro), the game would be massively improved.

Yeah, I know, Terran drops and splits, and Protoss.....Terran has drops and marine splits, but just general purpose macro is much more of an APM sink for Zerg than SC2 Protoss/Terran.



That's because you're not paying attention. BW ZvZ at a high level is actually pretty micro intensive. It's just ugly looking because it's two blobs of mutas flying in circles next to each other, but it's actually pretty hard, especially to focus-fire.

On April 26 2012 15:32 Ribbon wrote:
Double posting because there's actual news: http://esfiworld.com/news/blizzard-kespa-ogn-gretech-announce-starcraft-2-esports-vision

And the SC2 forum thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332406

KeSPA, OGN, GOM, and Blizzard are making a joint SC2 announcement on May 2. So, within a week, all the speculation will be over and we'll know for sure.

On April 26 2012 09:56 6NR wrote:
I'll be honest with you guys. My introduction to RTS is SC2, and I only learned of BW after. I tried to love BW and found it very good, but I have always been hoping for the time those BW players go to SC2 and see how much further this game can evolve. The rumors about the switch made me nervous at first, but when it was finally confirmed, I really smiled with glee in my heart.

On April 27 2012 00:12 Ribbon wrote:


No, not really. SC2 Zerg has the larva inject mechanic, which is the closest to BW macro because using MBS to do it is strictly worse than manually injecting them all at 25 energy even when they're not synced up in the timing (One of the reasons people thought Aria was a BW pro was because he had all his queens injecting at different times and keeping them under 30 energy). SC2 zerg also has the creep spread mechanic, which is one of the few things in SC2 where pros can impress, both because it's a lot of tumors all over the map, and it janks your hotkeys if you try to be lazy with it. DRG was consistently running 12 creep tumors at the last MLG, and the barcraft I was at was legit impressed because, unlike so much of SC2's macro, that's actually really hard to do.

SC2 Zerg also gets the least benefit from MBS, and is the most penalized for 1Aing the whole army because they're dependent on flanks to a much greater extant (and having infestors on the same hotkey as your army is basically throwing them away). That's why so many of the BW people who went to SC2 did so as Zerg, and why TL's SC2 board was like 80% Zerg for a while. This is also the explicit reason Idra switched to Zerg in SC2, because he felt it was the race that rewarded mechanics the most (since Artosis was the one who told him this, I think Artosis agreed). He then proceeded to spend the next year and a half saying SC2 was a terrible game because he lost a lot, but still. The difference between BW Terran and SC2 Terran, or BW Protoss and SC2 Protoss, is pretty fucking huge. BW Zerg to SC2 is still mechanically easier, but not nearly as much of a difference. If Terran and Protoss were as mechanically hard as Zerg (to macro), the game would be massively improved.

Yeah, I know, Terran drops and splits, and Protoss.....Terran has drops and marine splits, but just general purpose macro is much more of an APM sink for Zerg than SC2 Protoss/Terran.



That's because you're not paying attention. BW ZvZ at a high level is actually pretty micro intensive. It's just ugly looking because it's two blobs of mutas flying in circles next to each other, but it's actually pretty hard, especially to focus-fire.

Stars Coach Lee: I first thought that the better players in SC1 would be better players in SC2, but it didn’t hold true for everyone. It’s more of a case-by-case thing. Some players are only good at SC1, some only at SC2, and some are good at both. In any case, I’m confident that practice will make up for the gaps. Honestly, some of the players that were, let’s say, terrible at SC1, are now absolutely demolishing others in SC2. We all started at the same time, but already we’re seeing skill differences.

On April 26 2012 01:17 wassbix wrote:
*flashback of reaver instafiring from shuttle unload* As a toss player those were good times.

On April 27 2012 05:30 0neder wrote:

Guys, guys, we don't want bronze leaguers looking at their base and finding all their workers gone. So we're going to remove all fast harass/imba splash units from the game. Too bad those types of units were the key to success and excitement in BW.

On April 27 2012 00:44 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
If this happens, the whole korean Starcraft scene will becaome sadder and more obscure than Counter Strike.