EPTThat was the most interesting and fun to read interview I have ever seen on TL.
Hearing those guys puts my mind at rest. They are so smart, and they sound like they really are all part of the same team. That was so great to get to listen in on.
BW Head Coaches on SC2 - Page 44
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
That was the most interesting and fun to read interview I have ever seen on TL. Hearing those guys puts my mind at rest. They are so smart, and they sound like they really are all part of the same team. That was so great to get to listen in on. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 23 2012 12:23 0neder wrote: This is the tragedy of SC2 as an esport. For most familiar with BW, it's just not as fun to watch or play. I want SO bad to love it as much, and I still hold out hope. But Dustin Browder seems to have his own vision and it misses the mark of several key factors that created the competitive Starcraft scene, that made tens of thousands of fans scream at ProLeague and StarLeague finals. Hundreds of thousands. Don't sell BW so short! I will keep watching sporadically, though, to see what happens. I hope SC2 gets more exciting in terms of the game itself and in terms of how the absolute best players in the world show even more clearly how broken things are and maybe some new possibilities. SC2 is slooooooowly moving in a good direction, as units written off as bad turn out to be good with some micro, maps are getting better, even the Blizzard ones, and general skill rises. It's light years from BW, but the direction is the right one. In terms of "new possibilities", the metagame of SC2 is so rapid that a lot of people (myself included) find it more interesting than the actual game itself. . On April 23 2012 11:06 Kaal wrote:I also don't like how there's so many tournaments, with no big tournament of tournaments like the OSL/MSL. Yeah, it's kind of weird to have two separate SC2 tournament finals (Dreamhack and MLG Spring Arena) going on at the same time. It's no secret, though, that the SC2 scene is due for a collapse, for exactly that reason. All the leagues are competing to be one of the two or three big ones in 2013. Most of them (NASL, most likely), are going to fail. Also winners league in GSTL is stupid, there's a reason that WL was much shorter than PL. It's fun and exciting to watch for a bit, but I really would like to see different players play as opposed to the same players over and over and over. Every other team tournament does it closer to Proleague style. On April 23 2012 11:46 LEGAsee wrote: Precisely, no one really cares that the workers go mine themselves or that it takes .3 seconds less to macro. These are just reasons why the play of pro BW players are that much more amazing. It's not like we watch OSL and let out a collective "wow!" when there aren't any workers sitting idle near the CC. I guess after all these years what will finally make SC2 players understand why we like broodwar is going to be its decline and the advent of the dual league. Sigh. I followed BW closely for months before SC2 came out, and more casually afterwords, and we totally do. I was just at a Barcraft for SC2 where people were oohinh and aahing over DRG's creep spread. And while spreading creep in SC2 is one of the few mechincally hard (and therefore impressive) things in that game, macroing in BW is harder. That's why people get praised for having good macro, because it's really hard to do, especially while doing a billion other things. I see BW players leaving 2-3 SCVs idle in front of the CC in their 4th actually fairly often, because it's HARD. The mechinical skill of the game is one of the biggest draws. If you had MBS and Automine, then nothing in BW would be impressive because little in BW is really all that hard if you have nothing else to do. The fact that you have to macro while splitting your army AND dropping AND microing AND watching your mineral line for DTs etc etc etc is what makes it hard, and therefore impressive. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
And no one will stop you from playing BW. | ||
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Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:14 Ribbon wrote: Yeah, it's kind of weird to have two separate SC2 tournament finals (Dreamhack and MLG Spring Arena) going on at the same time. It's no secret, though, that the SC2 scene is due for a collapse, for exactly that reason. All the leagues are competing to be one of the two or three big ones in 2013. Most of them (NASL, most likely), are going to fail. I don't think so about NASL going to fail soon though. They had just made contract with CBSi so they have some strength that could convince CBSi. Worst case is that they are going to be absorbed by MLG but that is still a long way to go. I think the progress is going to be the big international leagues (GSL, MLG, DH, IPL and IEM) is going to cooperate with each other more and more (MLG and DH start to cooperate). They might absorb or sponsor smaller leagues more if they can use them as qualifiers. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:49 Veldril wrote: I don't think so about NASL going to fail soon though. They had just made contract with CBSi so they have some strength that could convince CBSi. Worst case is that they are going to be absorbed by MLG but that is still a long way to go. I think the progress is going to be the big international leagues (GSL, MLG, DH, IPL and IEM) is going to cooperate with each other more and more (MLG and DH start to cooperate). They might absorb or sponsor smaller leagues more if they can use them as qualifiers. Honestly NASL might have been the of lower quality compared to the big 4 (gsl, mlg, dh,ipl) but it certainly is better than IEM imho plus with them picking up one of the top caster combos (bitterdam <3) and adding incentives to play better games in the normal season (every game has a prize purse) I feel nasl is on the up and up. IEM will be the first to fall if any of them do tbh, lowest viewership, meh players attending and bad timing (they always seem to do it during other, better events) NASL might eventually fail but i feel IEM will be first of the tourneys to leave the scene. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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LEGAsee
170 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:14 Ribbon wrote: I followed BW closely for months before SC2 came out, and more casually afterwords, and we totally do. I was just at a Barcraft for SC2 where people were oohinh and aahing over DRG's creep spread. And while spreading creep in SC2 is one of the few mechincally hard (and therefore impressive) things in that game, macroing in BW is harder. That's why people get praised for having good macro, because it's really hard to do, especially while doing a billion other things. I see BW players leaving 2-3 SCVs idle in front of the CC in their 4th actually fairly often, because it's HARD. The mechinical skill of the game is one of the biggest draws. If you had MBS and Automine, then nothing in BW would be impressive because little in BW is really all that hard if you have nothing else to do. The fact that you have to macro while splitting your army AND dropping AND microing AND watching your mineral line for DTs etc etc etc is what makes it hard, and therefore impressive. I didn't mean to belittle the efforts of players macro, I agree with what you're saying. I simply meant that it wasn't those things alone that make the difference. It's the fact that workers automine, MBS makes macro easy, infinite unit select, not nearly as much micro potential of units, and smartcasting combined make the mechanics in SC2 so easy that I'm not impressed when I watch. Just as in BW it isn't the fact that they are making units consistently, it's that they are doing it without aid while managing their army and those other things you said. At 350 APM. But I think that even further than that, the fact that in BW you never really can be doing everything you should be adds another layer on top of it all with the decision making involved. I have five things I need to do...which three do I choose to do? | ||
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LEGAsee
170 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:14 Ribbon wrote: I followed BW closely for months before SC2 came out, and more casually afterwords, and we totally do. I was just at a Barcraft for SC2 where people were oohinh and aahing over DRG's creep spread. And while spreading creep in SC2 is one of the few mechincally hard (and therefore impressive) things in that game, macroing in BW is harder. That's why people get praised for having good macro, because it's really hard to do, especially while doing a billion other things. I see BW players leaving 2-3 SCVs idle in front of the CC in their 4th actually fairly often, because it's HARD. The mechinical skill of the game is one of the biggest draws. If you had MBS and Automine, then nothing in BW would be impressive because little in BW is really all that hard if you have nothing else to do. The fact that you have to macro while splitting your army AND dropping AND microing AND watching your mineral line for DTs etc etc etc is what makes it hard, and therefore impressive. I didn't mean to belittle the efforts of players macro, I agree with what you're saying. I simply meant that it wasn't those things alone that make the difference. It's the fact that workers automine, MBS makes macro easy, infinite unit select, not nearly as much micro potential of units, and smartcasting combined make the mechanics in SC2 so easy that I'm not impressed when I watch. Just as in BW it isn't the fact that they are making units consistently, it's that they are doing it without aid while managing their army and those other things you said. At 350 APM. But I think that even further than that, the fact that in BW you never really can be doing everything you should be adds another layer on top of it all with the decision making involved. I have five things I need to do this very second...which three do I choose to do? | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 23 2012 16:55 Telcontar wrote: I'll definitely get my interest back for SC2 when the BW pros start playing, but I doubt even they can elevate SC2 to new heights and hold my interest for long. It's ultimately down to Blizzard to try and fix some design flaws and make things more interesting. But from what I've seen so far with their HOTS dev updates, I don't hold much hope for that. Yes, i was repeating it many times, DO NOT expect to see DIFFERENT game because TBLS is playing it, it will be the SAME game just only slightly better played. Yes slightly. If someone didnt like SC2 and game dynamics dont expect marines to behave differently or hellions turning into vultures just because Fantasy is playing it. Everyone who understands both game designs will know that even TBLS playing SC2 won't necceserily make it BW-like experience, it will be just refined SC2. I will be rooting for my favorite BW players and will probably go back to watching SC2 frequently yet the points remain it will not be BW and soon everyone will know. | ||
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AssyrianKing
Australia2117 Posts
On April 22 2012 22:56 Darksoldierr wrote: Are kespa players allowed to stream at all? I meant stream ONLY Starcraft II... | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
no streaming whatsoever, nor replay sharing. | ||
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Barburas
United Kingdom247 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:14 Ribbon wrote: Yeah, it's kind of weird to have two separate SC2 tournament finals (Dreamhack and MLG Spring Arena) going on at the same time. It's no secret, though, that the SC2 scene is due for a collapse, for exactly that reason. All the leagues are competing to be one of the two or three big ones in 2013. Most of them (NASL, most likely), are going to fail. I'm not really seeing what you're basing this on. I see no real evidence that the SC2 scene is heading for an imminent collapse, certainly I wouldn't count that two tournaments both playing SC2 on the same weekend (both getting good viewer counts and one was ppv) as evidence for this. I could definitely see NASL failing (although less so now they've made many positive changes for their season 3 format getting Bitterdam, etc), but that wouldn't be at all to do with SC2 and more to do with poor standards/blunders they made. | ||
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Jurassic
Hungary79 Posts
Stars Coach Lee: "Some of our old players that considered retirement in the past while actually regained the passion while practising for both games. If we kept going with SC1 only, our team would have had retirement news to release." At least with SC2 they have found a new goal to set for themselves. I'm curious how this whole thing turns out. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On April 23 2012 17:28 bgx wrote: Yes, i was repeating it many times, DO NOT expect to see DIFFERENT game because TBLS is playing it, it will be the SAME game just only slightly better played. Yes slightly. If someone didnt like SC2 and game dynamics dont expect marines to behave differently or hellions turning into vultures just because Fantasy is playing it. Everyone who understands both game designs will know that even TBLS playing SC2 won't necceserily make it BW-like experience, it will be just refined SC2. I will be rooting for my favorite BW players and will probably go back to watching SC2 frequently yet the points remain it will not be BW and soon everyone will know. I share a similar sentiment. The reason you hear the comment "SC2 is so much more fun to play than watch" is exactly due to how it was designed. Leve of player skill won't change that. For me personally, I'm not sure if watching TBLS will make it more enjoyable or just just make me hate SC2 even more (going from Fantasy Vulture to Fantasy hellion is....). | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On April 23 2012 22:21 wassbix wrote: I share a similar sentiment. The reason you hear the comment "SC2 is so much more fun to play than watch" is exactly due to how it was designed. Leve of player skill won't change that. For me personally, I'm not sure if watching TBLS will make it more enjoyable or just just make me hate SC2 even more (going from Fantasy Vulture to Fantasy hellion is....). I hear exactly the opposite, a lot of people who don't play the game like to watch it. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 23 2012 21:02 Barburas wrote: I'm not really seeing what you're basing this on. I see no real evidence that the SC2 scene is heading for an imminent collapse, certainly I wouldn't count that two tournaments both playing SC2 on the same weekend (both getting good viewer counts and one was ppv) as evidence for this. Both FXOBoss and Sundance have said as much. It's not that the scene is getting smaller, exactly, it's that there are too many tournaments. No one's making money except maybe MLG, and only on Arenas. Maybe. So, eventually, people will bow out, and instead of two tournaments with 80,000 people watching, there'll be one with 160,000, and that guy will start doing really well. On April 23 2012 23:16 NeonFox wrote: I hear exactly the opposite, a lot of people who don't play the game like to watch it. I think that's just 'cause people are busy. I'm sure a lot of Korean BW fans don't really play it much either, because they have friends and school and shit, and other hobbies. The foreign BW scene isn't really indicative of anything, because it's almost entirely hardcore people at this point. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 23 2012 15:14 Ribbon wrote: In terms of "new possibilities", the metagame of SC2 is so rapid that a lot of people (myself included) find it more interesting than the actual game itself. . This is exactly how I feel (I agree with the rest of your post too). I prefer broodwar, but all of the meta part of sc2 is very exciting and it's good to be a part of it. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
The fact is, the split from SSBM and SSBB ruined the smash community, and Source really hurt CS. The quicker pros join the game that more people want to watch (thus monetizing it), the better. I know you've been playing BW for 12 years, but the more open-minded the BW community is about switching to the newer, more popular game, the better. | ||
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dartoo
India2889 Posts
I actually thought, the fact that the "metagame" is so important is bad, it leads to having more one sided matches, and is more about blindish-guessing what the other guy is doing as opposed to actually playing it out in the game. | ||
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