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On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft.
Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved.
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On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved.
Blizzard has chosen a different way for SC2, whether you like it or not.
There will be a point where BW fans will have to choose between no competitive Starcraft or SCII.
Not hating or anything but the transition is going quite fast now..
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On April 23 2012 09:17 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved. Blizzard has chosen a different way for SC2, whether you like it or not. There will be a point where BW fans will have to choose between no competitive Starcraft or SCII. Not hating or anything but the transition is going quite fast now..
I think that the question is, do you like it?
If you don't like it, then it is moot to continue playing the game. Don't want something to be forced down your throat.
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On April 23 2012 06:26 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:58 Darksoldierr wrote:
For the record, if they would change to any other game, it would be still forced. BW cannot get a sponsor, and i'am sure not SC2 the cause for it.
Before saying "herp derp sc2 evil kespa evil blizzard evil, everyone will force BW pros to play a bad game", if there would be no SC2, there would be no other RTS to turn to. And they would be forced no matter which game is it, simply becouse they didn't wanted to play LoL, HON, SF or SC2 but BW. If there was no SC2, maybe there would be no reason for blizzard to kill BW. It's all speculation at this point.
Blizzard didn't kill BW, Savior did.
On April 23 2012 06:36 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 19:42 Tyree wrote:
Random topics mean little when in comparison to viewership numbers, there is a reason MLG has made SC2 its flagship "event", even above CoD and Halo. MLG has for years been a Halo even, but even they realised that SC2 was/is bigger. There is a reason why the biggest gaming site (at least in terms of hits) IGN has their own SC2 tournament, there is a reason why CBSi has gotten into SC2 aswell. Since you brought up MLG... MLG's primary events used to be Halo 2 and Smash Bros. Melee. What happened? Halo 3 came out and while pros didn't like it, they still played it and it was still a powerful presence, especially being a Halo on a new-gen system and having great casual play. MLG switched to Halo 3. Melee was very popular, but then Brawl came out. Brawl was extremely controversial for several reasons. Smash is dropped from MLG.
IIRC, Smash was dropped due to a match-fixing scandal, ironically enough.
Halo Reach comes out. Many people don't like it but MLG adopts it. The competitive scene is much smaller. Casuals flee to CoD.
I don't follow the FPS scene at all, but I've been to MLG, and the Halo crowds number at a few hundred while the CoD crowds number at like 20. CoD actually is a game that's scene is being forced by it's developer. So's LoL, actually (Sundance said MLG was unlikely to pick up Dota 2 because Riot gives MLG wheelbarrows of cash and Valve doesn't), but LoL actually does have a scene. No casuals fled to CoD. CoD has next to zero scene.
That's how I can trust in the stability of BW. Perhaps it's not sustainable at its current level and that it's too big and they need to downsize it and work slowly and steadily again. That's fine. But switching to a new game doesn't make it any more stable or sustainable--it just does the opposite.
I actually am a believer that BW can grow back, and even that this split league can help BW in the long run, but it's awkward because so many people depend on BW to eat.
Show nested quote +What game has a realistic chance of still being relevant in foreign markets in 2-3 years? SC2 or BW? BW has as big of a chance to be big in the west as disco has a chance of coming back. Being big and being sustainable are two different things. Creating a long-term property and competitive scene is extremely difficult, but I believe BW has the foundation for it. SC2 is a big unknown, especially since they cede a lot of competitive control to Blizzard who doesn't have the same experience as KeSPA.
??
Tournaments have been fairly consistent about ignoring subpar Blizzard maps, and it's forced Blizz to adopt community maps, and their own maps are a lot more in line with community standards than Blizzard's stated desire for a variety of rush maps (compare Emtombed Valley with Jungle Basin or Slag Pits). If you're referring to patching, then yes there's that, but I don't think the community has been miffed about a balance change after it's been out a while.
On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved.
It's the MBS and Automine that are BW fans biggest issue with SC2. I know that BW's interface makes the game harder, but that's because it's a bad interface, and no company would purposefully release a game with bad controls nowadays, and BW with MBS and Automine would end up looking a lot like SC2, in ways BW fans wouldn't like.
And anyway, there is such a thing, and it's the SC2:BW mod, which lets you toggle the MBS/etc on and off. BW fans, I'll note, aren't exactly crawling over each other to get to play it.
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On April 23 2012 10:07 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 06:26 maybenexttime wrote:On April 23 2012 05:58 Darksoldierr wrote:
For the record, if they would change to any other game, it would be still forced. BW cannot get a sponsor, and i'am sure not SC2 the cause for it.
Before saying "herp derp sc2 evil kespa evil blizzard evil, everyone will force BW pros to play a bad game", if there would be no SC2, there would be no other RTS to turn to. And they would be forced no matter which game is it, simply becouse they didn't wanted to play LoL, HON, SF or SC2 but BW. If there was no SC2, maybe there would be no reason for blizzard to kill BW. It's all speculation at this point. Blizzard didn't kill BW, Savior did.
Savior weakened BW but didn't kill it entirely. Without SC2, I think we'd see BW continue on in a reduced form for a while, and either stay that way or gradually revive. But with Kespa reacting to BW's weakness by forcing BW progamers to play SC2, that's the end of BW, and I believe ultimately the end of progaming as we know it (as SC2 does not have the staying power that BW has).
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 06:36 kainzero wrote:On April 22 2012 19:42 Tyree wrote:
Random topics mean little when in comparison to viewership numbers, there is a reason MLG has made SC2 its flagship "event", even above CoD and Halo. MLG has for years been a Halo even, but even they realised that SC2 was/is bigger. There is a reason why the biggest gaming site (at least in terms of hits) IGN has their own SC2 tournament, there is a reason why CBSi has gotten into SC2 aswell. Since you brought up MLG... MLG's primary events used to be Halo 2 and Smash Bros. Melee. What happened? Halo 3 came out and while pros didn't like it, they still played it and it was still a powerful presence, especially being a Halo on a new-gen system and having great casual play. MLG switched to Halo 3. Melee was very popular, but then Brawl came out. Brawl was extremely controversial for several reasons. Smash is dropped from MLG. IIRC, Smash was dropped due to a match-fixing scandal, ironically enough. Show nested quote +Halo Reach comes out. Many people don't like it but MLG adopts it. The competitive scene is much smaller. Casuals flee to CoD. I don't follow the FPS scene at all, but I've been to MLG, and the Halo crowds number at a few hundred while the CoD crowds number at like 20. CoD actually is a game that's scene is being forced by it's developer. So's LoL, actually (Sundance said MLG was unlikely to pick up Dota 2 because Riot gives MLG wheelbarrows of cash and Valve doesn't), but LoL actually does have a scene. No casuals fled to CoD. CoD has next to zero scene. Show nested quote +That's how I can trust in the stability of BW. Perhaps it's not sustainable at its current level and that it's too big and they need to downsize it and work slowly and steadily again. That's fine. But switching to a new game doesn't make it any more stable or sustainable--it just does the opposite. I actually am a believer that BW can grow back, and even that this split league can help BW in the long run, but it's awkward because so many people depend on BW to eat. Show nested quote +What game has a realistic chance of still being relevant in foreign markets in 2-3 years? SC2 or BW? BW has as big of a chance to be big in the west as disco has a chance of coming back. Being big and being sustainable are two different things. Creating a long-term property and competitive scene is extremely difficult, but I believe BW has the foundation for it. SC2 is a big unknown, especially since they cede a lot of competitive control to Blizzard who doesn't have the same experience as KeSPA. ?? Tournaments have been fairly consistent about ignoring subpar Blizzard maps, and it's forced Blizz to adopt community maps, and their own maps are a lot more in line with community standards than Blizzard's stated desire for a variety of rush maps (compare Emtombed Valley with Jungle Basin or Slag Pits). If you're referring to patching, then yes there's that, but I don't think the community has been miffed about a balance change after it's been out a while. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved. It's the MBS and Automine that are BW fans biggest issue with SC2. I know that BW's interface makes the game harder, but that's because it's a bad interface, and no company would purposefully release a game with bad controls nowadays, and BW with MBS and Automine would end up looking a lot like SC2, in ways BW fans wouldn't like. And anyway, there is such a thing, and it's the SC2:BW mod, which lets you toggle the MBS/etc on and off. BW fans, I'll note, aren't exactly crawling over each other to get to play it.
I believe complaints about MBS, Automine, etc. were always wrong. In my opinion, the main flaw with SC2 is that the unit control is not as fun (so I don't enjoy playing it as much) or flexible (so the skill ceiling is lower). There are other reasons it doesn't live up to BW as a spectator game, but MBS and Automine are not the problem.
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The problem of SC2 is that games usually involve ball of death vs another ball of death. There are games that aren't balls of death but it happens way too frequently.
Something like this needs to happen in HotS
Puck vs Rainbow (it's a bit laggy at some points but it show cases a decent game using that style).
+ Show Spoiler +
Also since I like posting this as an example, SC2 games (PvT for example) need to have more exciting matches like this one:
+ Show Spoiler +
In SC2, PvT is just ball of death vs ball of death. Sometimes, they're moving back and forth all right... in the middle of the map and nowhere else ("oh noes, storm! Better run back. Ok storm is gone, run forward. Oh noes, storm again! Better run back!" rinse and repeat for like 30 mins >.>).
Also here's the game that demonstrates the above (the first video is free). Now, yes there are other type of PvT games in SC2 but the average game is less exciting than in BW IMO (due to the ball of death issue + most battles just taking place in one area).
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I'll probably tune in to foreign tournaments.
BW will be around for a very long time, just not as a professional game. There's nothing stopping anyone from getting on a private server like Iccup/Fish and getting a challenging match. The moment you can't do that anymore is the moment I'd call the game dead.
I don't get the whole idea of gimping your own fun in order to support ESPORTS!!11 like many guys in the thread advocate.
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On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft.
Amen.
I am tired of that shit.
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On April 23 2012 10:18 blueblimp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:07 Ribbon wrote:On April 23 2012 06:26 maybenexttime wrote:On April 23 2012 05:58 Darksoldierr wrote:
For the record, if they would change to any other game, it would be still forced. BW cannot get a sponsor, and i'am sure not SC2 the cause for it.
Before saying "herp derp sc2 evil kespa evil blizzard evil, everyone will force BW pros to play a bad game", if there would be no SC2, there would be no other RTS to turn to. And they would be forced no matter which game is it, simply becouse they didn't wanted to play LoL, HON, SF or SC2 but BW. If there was no SC2, maybe there would be no reason for blizzard to kill BW. It's all speculation at this point. Blizzard didn't kill BW, Savior did. Savior weakened BW but didn't kill it entirely. Without SC2, I think we'd see BW continue on in a reduced form for a while, and either stay that way or gradually revive. But with Kespa reacting to BW's weakness by forcing BW progamers to play SC2, that's the end of BW, and I believe ultimately the end of progaming as we know it (as SC2 does not have the staying power that BW has).
They'd just switch to LoL instead. And I won't call BW killed until it's officially canceled.
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 06:36 kainzero wrote:On April 22 2012 19:42 Tyree wrote:
Random topics mean little when in comparison to viewership numbers, there is a reason MLG has made SC2 its flagship "event", even above CoD and Halo. MLG has for years been a Halo even, but even they realised that SC2 was/is bigger. There is a reason why the biggest gaming site (at least in terms of hits) IGN has their own SC2 tournament, there is a reason why CBSi has gotten into SC2 aswell. Since you brought up MLG... MLG's primary events used to be Halo 2 and Smash Bros. Melee. What happened? Halo 3 came out and while pros didn't like it, they still played it and it was still a powerful presence, especially being a Halo on a new-gen system and having great casual play. MLG switched to Halo 3. Melee was very popular, but then Brawl came out. Brawl was extremely controversial for several reasons. Smash is dropped from MLG. IIRC, Smash was dropped due to a match-fixing scandal, ironically enough. Halo Reach comes out. Many people don't like it but MLG adopts it. The competitive scene is much smaller. Casuals flee to CoD. I don't follow the FPS scene at all, but I've been to MLG, and the Halo crowds number at a few hundred while the CoD crowds number at like 20. CoD actually is a game that's scene is being forced by it's developer. So's LoL, actually (Sundance said MLG was unlikely to pick up Dota 2 because Riot gives MLG wheelbarrows of cash and Valve doesn't), but LoL actually does have a scene. No casuals fled to CoD. CoD has next to zero scene. That's how I can trust in the stability of BW. Perhaps it's not sustainable at its current level and that it's too big and they need to downsize it and work slowly and steadily again. That's fine. But switching to a new game doesn't make it any more stable or sustainable--it just does the opposite. I actually am a believer that BW can grow back, and even that this split league can help BW in the long run, but it's awkward because so many people depend on BW to eat. What game has a realistic chance of still being relevant in foreign markets in 2-3 years? SC2 or BW? BW has as big of a chance to be big in the west as disco has a chance of coming back. Being big and being sustainable are two different things. Creating a long-term property and competitive scene is extremely difficult, but I believe BW has the foundation for it. SC2 is a big unknown, especially since they cede a lot of competitive control to Blizzard who doesn't have the same experience as KeSPA. ?? Tournaments have been fairly consistent about ignoring subpar Blizzard maps, and it's forced Blizz to adopt community maps, and their own maps are a lot more in line with community standards than Blizzard's stated desire for a variety of rush maps (compare Emtombed Valley with Jungle Basin or Slag Pits). If you're referring to patching, then yes there's that, but I don't think the community has been miffed about a balance change after it's been out a while. On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved. It's the MBS and Automine that are BW fans biggest issue with SC2. I know that BW's interface makes the game harder, but that's because it's a bad interface, and no company would purposefully release a game with bad controls nowadays, and BW with MBS and Automine would end up looking a lot like SC2, in ways BW fans wouldn't like. And anyway, there is such a thing, and it's the SC2:BW mod, which lets you toggle the MBS/etc on and off. BW fans, I'll note, aren't exactly crawling over each other to get to play it. I believe complaints about MBS, Automine, etc. were always wrong. In my opinion, the main flaw with SC2 is that the unit control is not as fun (so I don't enjoy playing it as much) or flexible (so the skill ceiling is lower). There are other reasons it doesn't live up to BW as a spectator game, but MBS and Automine are not the problem.
The issue is that army-splitting isn't good enough. I really don't think people would complain much if unlimited unit selection were added to BW, because it wouldn't affect BW at all at the pro level since BW rewards splitting armies most of the time. I'm totally fine with there being an easy way to do something (Marauders in front of marines to tank banelings), if there were a hard way that worked better (marine splitting and focus-firing them down while kiting) more of the time.
I think this is why a lot of the BW fans who did take up SC2 tended towards Zerg, which has the most ways to be impressive mechanically (keeping all your queens under 30 energy, especially if they're unsynced, and creep spread is the only macro-like mechanic in the game it's possible to be really impressed by, because it can't be done with hotkeys). If it had more of that, I think BW fans would be much less irate over MBS et al. The Oracle from HotS looks to be a move in that direction, which is why I ♥ it so much, but it needs more, especially for toss.
I think this is why the weird scrappy games where both players lose their mains are far and away more exciting than normal SC2 games, because you have to make more use out of every individual unit. SC2 can be really exciting, it just often isn't, and I'm really curious to see what KeSPA does about that.
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It's the MBS and Automine that are BW fans biggest issue with SC2.
Uh what. I don't even care about MBS and Automine. I'm fine with that, and so are a lot of other bw fans. What bothers me is that the units are boring, the matches feel stagnant after like 10 minutes, unit control is weird, the spells and abilities have no wow factor. That's about it off the top of my head. I also don't like how there's so many tournaments, with no big tournament of tournaments like the OSL/MSL. Also winners league in GSTL is stupid, there's a reason that WL was much shorter than PL. It's fun and exciting to watch for a bit, but I really would like to see different players play as opposed to the same players over and over and over.
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On April 23 2012 10:07 Ribbon wrote:
Blizzard didn't kill BW, Savior did.
You won't find me disagreeing that Savior hurt proBW more than anything else but i find a lot of people seem to gloss over how horrible it looks from the perspective of potential sponsors when the developer of the bloody game sues you for IP rights violations, case dropped or not mud sticks and a lawsuit is not what sponsors like to see.
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On April 23 2012 10:29 Goldfish wrote:The problem of SC2 is that games usually involve ball of death vs another ball of death. There are games that aren't balls of death but it happens way too frequently. Something like this needs to happen in HotSPuck vs Rainbow (it's a bit laggy at some points but it show cases a decent game using that style). + Show Spoiler +Also since I like posting this as an example, SC2 games (PvT for example) need to have more exciting matches like this one: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrlTHtF0BY In SC2, PvT is just ball of death vs ball of death. Sometimes, they're moving back and forth all right... in the middle of the map and nowhere else ("oh noes, storm! Better run back. Ok storm is gone, run forward. Oh noes, storm again! Better run back!" rinse and repeat for like 30 mins >.>). Also here's the game that demonstrates the above (the first video is free). Now, yes there are other type of PvT games in SC2 but the average game is less exciting than in BW IMO (due to the ball of death issue + most battles just taking place in one area).
There's still a modicum of enjoyment to be had from the ghost and templar micro in my opinion. Something exciting about knowing that if the toss fucks up he'll will lose his army by a landslide.
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On April 23 2012 11:06 Kaal wrote:Uh what. I don't even care about MBS and Automine. I'm fine with that, and so are a lot of other bw fans. What bothers me is that the units are boring, the matches feel stagnant after like 10 minutes, unit control is weird, the spells and abilities have no wow factor. That's about it off the top of my head. I also don't like how there's so many tournaments, with no big tournament of tournaments like the OSL/MSL. Also winners league in GSTL is stupid, there's a reason that WL was much shorter than PL. It's fun and exciting to watch for a bit, but I really would like to see different players play as opposed to the same players over and over and over.
Precisely, no one really cares that the workers go mine themselves or that it takes .3 seconds less to macro. These are just reasons why the play of pro BW players are that much more amazing. It's not like we watch OSL and let out a collective "wow!" when there aren't any workers sitting idle near the CC. I guess after all these years what will finally make SC2 players understand why we like broodwar is going to be its decline and the advent of the dual league. Sigh.
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some coaches agree that SC2 seemed boring in comparison to BW.So when they have to force the players to play this game later on, they feel like players wouldn't be doing it for fun anymore = it actually will be forcing it.
This is the tragedy of SC2 as an esport. For most familiar with BW, it's just not as fun to watch or play. I want SO bad to love it as much, and I still hold out hope. But Dustin Browder seems to have his own vision and it misses the mark of several key factors that created the competitive Starcraft scene, that made tens of thousands of fans scream at ProLeague and StarLeague finals.
I will keep watching sporadically, though, to see what happens. I hope SC2 gets more exciting in terms of the game itself and in terms of how the absolute best players in the world show even more clearly how broken things are and maybe some new possibilities.
Until then, I'm holding out hope that the new Counter-Strike developers will learn from SC2 and take advice from the players. It seems from guys like Whisenhunt that the developers are being incredibly responsive to top players' input to understand the game on a deep level. There is still more hope for the 'other' best e-sport in the world...
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On April 23 2012 11:06 Kaal wrote:Uh what. I don't even care about MBS and Automine. I'm fine with that, and so are a lot of other bw fans. What bothers me is that the units are boring, the matches feel stagnant after like 10 minutes, unit control is weird, the spells and abilities have no wow factor. That's about it off the top of my head. I also don't like how there's so many tournaments, with no big tournament of tournaments like the OSL/MSL. Also winners league in GSTL is stupid, there's a reason that WL was much shorter than PL. It's fun and exciting to watch for a bit, but I really would like to see different players play as opposed to the same players over and over and over.
Thank you my friend. You hit the nail on the head.
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On April 23 2012 09:17 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:07 Xiphos wrote:On April 23 2012 08:59 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:39 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:27 BandonBanshee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 05:22 hitthat wrote:
Being a dick is the natural law of a men, granted by God or Nature with freedom, equality and the rest of banals invented by politically correct philosofers of enlightment. lol you guys are hopeless. If this is how you deal with a video game not being played anymore i'd hate to see how you deal with a real hardship. While I generally agree with you overall about how some people act I do think you are SEVERELY underestimating how important BW is to many here. For many, it's a legitimate hardship as real as any other you might run into. Ya I understand where you guys are coming from. This sucks for me too I love broodwar to death, didn't mean to be insensitive. I just think the current mindset that both games are "at war" is counterproductive. Sc2 has glaring issues i'm not denying that but i'm still optimistic about the future of the game I love, not broodwar, not wings of liberty..but starcraft. Hey that can be easily fixed! As long as one certain corporate is willing to pour one small portion of their energy into the completion. Blizzard can simply release SC2 with BW's unit but make the graphical aspect much more detailed. On top of it, they can even add the MBS, Automine, and all that jazz. This will not only attract new kids on the block (another word, the casual consumers) and satisfy the faithful loyalists. However they did not select this path to facilitate the game's marketing. The reasoning behind still remains as a riddle that cannot be solved. Blizzard has chosen a different way for SC2, whether you like it or not. There will be a point where BW fans will have to choose between no competitive Starcraft or SCII. Not hating or anything but the transition is going quite fast now..
Actually, they initially wanted to capture BW's spirit (you can tell that from early interviews, game announcement in Korea, etc.), but failed pretty badly, so they came up with the "if you want BW, go back to BW" line of defence. If they actually wanted to make it a different game, SC2 wouldn've been to BW what WC3 was to WC2. But they wanted to stay true to the original gameplay model. It's just that they don't get it. ;;
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United States10328 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:36 kainzero wrote:
MLG's primary events used to be Halo 2 and Smash Bros. Melee. What happened?
Melee was very popular, but then Brawl came out. Brawl was extremely controversial for several reasons. Smash is dropped from MLG.
For me, BW -> SC2 draws many parallels to Melee -> Brawl.
Two great, technically challenging games are going strong when their sequels are released. Casual players, enticed by the increased friendliness of the new game, switch; sponsors, impressed by the shininess and the new fanbase, switch; and finally pro/top players, drawn by sponsors' money, switch.
I don't deny that SC2 is a better competitive game than Brawl. But I don't think that people can say that SC2 isn't directly related to the decline of BW--foreign BW, most certainly, was dealt a decisive blow by the release of SC2, while Korean BW is now in its death throes. There is no longer money to be made from Brood War, because SC2 is here.
We can maybe hope. Melee events have seen a revival at tournaments like Apex and Pound V, though anything as big (exposure-wise and sponsor-wise) as MLG is no longer anywhere on the radar. So at this point, all I can hope is that one day, BW will somehow gain a status sort of like that of Melee.
The problem with this sort of hope, however, is that Melee is by all means not a professionally played game in the sense that no one subsists on tournament winning alone (other than maybe Armada/Mango/HBox/M2K.) BW in Korea had reached a different level: salaries, pro houses, multiple regularly scheduled leagues. Reviving BW to even the state it was in this past season will be infinitely harder than reviving Melee.
But inexorably, time and the times move along. Something shinier (and not terribly inferior) has come, and the money has followed. Now even the best players will follow, not only some top foreigners and low-middling Koreans. BW fans will no longer have the privilege to watch the product of talent and preparation manifest in the greatest RTS, both to play and to watch, ever created.
So for those urging BW fans to move on, please understand our pain. Many will half-, or even whole-, heartedly continue to follow their favorite players in a game with some shadow of its predecessor's former glory; your pleas and insults will have little effect. Let us mourn in peace.
Though we mourn, we still have hope. Perhaps one day the new game will fill the shoes it was meant to fill; perhaps it will fall short. Certainly many BW fans still find SC2 a less entertaining spectacle, and perhaps even less fun to play. But worry not: SC2 is in no short-term danger, since it is not a bad game, and there are yet expansions to be released. We will see what happens, however, once they are all out: the players, the spectators, the sponsors will judge SC2's fate. Unless SC2 manages to live up to our expectations (and it may have already done so for many), Brood War fans will forever have left part of their heart behind.
And for me, if not Brood War, at least Melee is still alive... though like SC2, Melee is yet to come close to the magic that BW has always exuded.
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On April 23 2012 10:29 Goldfish wrote:The problem of SC2 is that games usually involve ball of death vs another ball of death. There are games that aren't balls of death but it happens way too frequently. Something like this needs to happen in HotSPuck vs Rainbow (it's a bit laggy at some points but it show cases a decent game using that style). + Show Spoiler +Also since I like posting this as an example, SC2 games (PvT for example) need to have more exciting matches like this one: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrlTHtF0BY In SC2, PvT is just ball of death vs ball of death. Sometimes, they're moving back and forth all right... in the middle of the map and nowhere else ("oh noes, storm! Better run back. Ok storm is gone, run forward. Oh noes, storm again! Better run back!" rinse and repeat for like 30 mins >.>). Also here's the game that demonstrates the above (the first video is free). Now, yes there are other type of PvT games in SC2 but the average game is less exciting than in BW IMO (due to the ball of death issue + most battles just taking place in one area).
I couldn't disagree with you more, over the past couple months the high end of sc2 has been developing amazingly well, turning more into the ability to multitask to get you ahead in the game (ala BWesque) I do watch BW and enjoy the games but sc2 is the future and personally i prefer to try trying to work the kinks out of sc2 instead of grasping with futility at the past that certainly isn't going to get much better with most of the big guns (kespa, blizzard, foreign scene, sponsors ect ect) going over to sc2.
If it isn't your cup of tea do w/e you want. I personally feel that blizzard will keep working on sc2 to make it a true successor.. eventually. I believe blizzard will get it worked out even with evil activision forcing them to work on more shit then they really want to work on at the same time.
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man.. why can't they at least wait til the last expansion for SC2 to come out, its still incomplete til then...
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On April 23 2012 13:35 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:29 Goldfish wrote:The problem of SC2 is that games usually involve ball of death vs another ball of death. There are games that aren't balls of death but it happens way too frequently. Something like this needs to happen in HotSPuck vs Rainbow (it's a bit laggy at some points but it show cases a decent game using that style). + Show Spoiler +Also since I like posting this as an example, SC2 games (PvT for example) need to have more exciting matches like this one: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrlTHtF0BY In SC2, PvT is just ball of death vs ball of death. Sometimes, they're moving back and forth all right... in the middle of the map and nowhere else ("oh noes, storm! Better run back. Ok storm is gone, run forward. Oh noes, storm again! Better run back!" rinse and repeat for like 30 mins >.>). Also here's the game that demonstrates the above (the first video is free). Now, yes there are other type of PvT games in SC2 but the average game is less exciting than in BW IMO (due to the ball of death issue + most battles just taking place in one area). I couldn't disagree with you more, over the past couple months the high end of sc2 has been developing amazingly well, turning more into the ability to multitask to get you ahead in the game (ala BWesque) I do watch BW and enjoy the games but sc2 is the future and personally i prefer to try trying to work the kinks out of sc2 instead of grasping with futility at the past that certainly isn't going to get much better with most of the big guns (kespa, blizzard, foreign scene, sponsors ect ect) going over to sc2. If it isn't your cup of tea do w/e you want. I personally feel that blizzard will keep working on sc2 to make it a true successor.. eventually. I believe blizzard will get it worked out even with evil activision forcing them to work on more shit then they really want to work on at the same time.
Honestly speaking blizzard is involved too much in the aspect of improving sc2, unlike bw it was not made to be an e-sport oriented game in the first place and naturally people just like playing the game and organizers thought what if we take this popular game and make some competitions for it and there you get professional broodwar . I feel sad for sc2 players every individual units has been nerf to the point the units is so docile and useless I wonder why is it even there for players to build if they want . Back than in early days reapers was introduced as a unit for harassing the opponents mineral line and what happen to the unit ? Blizzard meddling happen .
I think bw was really lucky that the developer didn't get so involved in to balancing the game and the game naturally was developed it self by the players rather than relying on blizzard development to wave it's magic wand hoping to solve everything .
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