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On April 22 2012 12:07 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 01:55 Rainfall7711 wrote:
The reality is that BW isn't sustainable alone anymore and why that is doesn't matter. actually, why it isn't sustainable is EXACTLY the problem. i really feel that BW is attracting long-term fans who will stick with the game for years. when SC3 comes out, all the SC2 fans will follow. but i'm pretty sure all the BW fans will still be with BW. i really think it'll be easier to attract newcomers to a game that's been around for years and has cultivated a legendary scene instead of following the flavor of the month. the fact that BW is still around already proves that long term fans are there. did they not say the international fan base was actually growing in this down period? why aren't they expanding here? what's this excuse that it's too late? i honestly think jumping to a new game won't solve the problems that they have.
take a look at the numbers on TL, you know foreign BW scene isn't very large, and pro-scene is almost non existent. there are long term followers, but only few new players and fans. i don't see how they can be successful here. i think the problem is that BW didn't gain the populairty of what a real physical sprot like basketball does. LoL or dota2 have a greater chance to achieve that status because they appeal more to the general public. it doesn't matter how awesome you think the game is, if no one shares the same view as you, it's not going to work.
also, if you see from Blizzard's point of view, they would want games to have a life cycle, so they can sell new games. if you think sc2 is bad, then why doesn't Blizzard try their best to fix all the design problems? its simple, they want to wait till the HoTS so people will have incentive to buy it. Unlike real sports, esports are owned by private corporations, another reason why you don't have complete control. The situation for esports right now is not ideal.
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On April 22 2012 06:51 Rainfall7711 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:28 gn0m wrote:On April 22 2012 06:17 algue wrote:On April 22 2012 06:05 -Duderino- wrote:
At first I was amazed by all the hating on sc2 by bw elitists but I realize now its because none of you know anything about the game 90% of posts by yall bout sc2 are just wrong and ignorant. It would great for the starcraft 2 communtity for bw fans to switch over along with the pros but after reading a handful of posts I think it might be best for everyone if the haters go down with the ship.
Can't wait for some of the top bw pros to come over to sc2 and innovate the game. In the one hand you are right , there is imo way too much hate and SOME bw players should be a little bit more open minded but on the other hand you can't say that Sc2 is a better game than BW atm and you are on the BW forum , what did you expect ? Its sad too see some Sc2 and BW player doing the same shit as CS 1.6 and CS:S communities  Whenever a sequel to a popular game is released, there is bound to be some disappointment for some of the fans of the original game. It is no secret that SC2, and new games in general, are being catered to casuals and the remaining foreign BW community is pretty hardcore by now. Hence the low interest for SC2 for some in the BW community. But saying that BW fans don’t like SC2 because they “didn’t gave it a chance” etc. is ridicules. BW fans were by far the most hyped when SC2 was announced. Also, this wouldn’t really be an issue if BW players weren’t forced to switch to a less developed game. I can imagine that SC2 fans would be pretty upset if every SC2 pro switched to LoL See i don't believe all of this about BW fans being hyped for SC2. It seems plausible on the surface but let's look at this logically. The only way BW fans would accept SC2 is if it was EXACTLY the śame but with better graphics. This was never going to happen. It doesn't matter how good SC2 is/will be because it will never actually be BW. This is the major point, it will never be BW, and it was never going to actually be BW. Therefor it will never be able to reach the standards set. This will actually happen until the end of time. Agreat game is released, when the inevitable sequel is released, it's subject to all the hate SC2 is. And btw, i agree and hope SC2 is improved alot into the future, but i still believe some people will never ever be satified with it because it's not their baby gem BW is.
You're talking out of your ass, why bother posting something this ignorant?
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I think a mixed SC2/BW league is a mistake but I am going to give it a chance. I'd honestly rather have a mixed LoL/BW league for a few reasons:
- The league would have a team game and a 1v1 game; "modern esports" seem to be gravitating toward team based play.
- LoL has viewership and a gigantic following that dwarfs Sc2's.
- We don't have to watch Sc2 and LoL is easier to ignore.
- Fantasy, Bisu, etc all the greats wouldn't be forced into playing Sc2... they could still switch if they wanted.
- LAN and usability
One of the coaches said it best, we wouldn't even be discussing this if Sc2 weren't called Sc2.
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On April 22 2012 13:40 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:51 Rainfall7711 wrote:On April 22 2012 06:28 gn0m wrote:On April 22 2012 06:17 algue wrote:On April 22 2012 06:05 -Duderino- wrote:
At first I was amazed by all the hating on sc2 by bw elitists but I realize now its because none of you know anything about the game 90% of posts by yall bout sc2 are just wrong and ignorant. It would great for the starcraft 2 communtity for bw fans to switch over along with the pros but after reading a handful of posts I think it might be best for everyone if the haters go down with the ship.
Can't wait for some of the top bw pros to come over to sc2 and innovate the game. In the one hand you are right , there is imo way too much hate and SOME bw players should be a little bit more open minded but on the other hand you can't say that Sc2 is a better game than BW atm and you are on the BW forum , what did you expect ? Its sad too see some Sc2 and BW player doing the same shit as CS 1.6 and CS:S communities Whenever a sequel to a popular game is released, there is bound to be some disappointment for some of the fans of the original game. It is no secret that SC2, and new games in general, are being catered to casuals and the remaining foreign BW community is pretty hardcore by now. Hence the low interest for SC2 for some in the BW community. But saying that BW fans don’t like SC2 because they “didn’t gave it a chance” etc. is ridicules. BW fans were by far the most hyped when SC2 was announced. Also, this wouldn’t really be an issue if BW players weren’t forced to switch to a less developed game. I can imagine that SC2 fans would be pretty upset if every SC2 pro switched to LoL See i don't believe all of this about BW fans being hyped for SC2. It seems plausible on the surface but let's look at this logically. The only way BW fans would accept SC2 is if it was EXACTLY the śame but with better graphics. This was never going to happen. It doesn't matter how good SC2 is/will be because it will never actually be BW. This is the major point, it will never be BW, and it was never going to actually be BW. Therefor it will never be able to reach the standards set. This will actually happen until the end of time. Agreat game is released, when the inevitable sequel is released, it's subject to all the hate SC2 is. And btw, i agree and hope SC2 is improved alot into the future, but i still believe some people will never ever be satified with it because it's not their baby gem BW is. You're talking out of your ass, why bother posting something this ignorant?
Why don't you expand on your post?
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Can someone forward me the full interview, please?
edit: got it, thanks
edit 2:
On April 22 2012 14:06 Rainfall7711 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 13:40 maybenexttime wrote:On April 22 2012 06:51 Rainfall7711 wrote:On April 22 2012 06:28 gn0m wrote:On April 22 2012 06:17 algue wrote:On April 22 2012 06:05 -Duderino- wrote:
At first I was amazed by all the hating on sc2 by bw elitists but I realize now its because none of you know anything about the game 90% of posts by yall bout sc2 are just wrong and ignorant. It would great for the starcraft 2 communtity for bw fans to switch over along with the pros but after reading a handful of posts I think it might be best for everyone if the haters go down with the ship.
Can't wait for some of the top bw pros to come over to sc2 and innovate the game. In the one hand you are right , there is imo way too much hate and SOME bw players should be a little bit more open minded but on the other hand you can't say that Sc2 is a better game than BW atm and you are on the BW forum , what did you expect ? Its sad too see some Sc2 and BW player doing the same shit as CS 1.6 and CS:S communities Whenever a sequel to a popular game is released, there is bound to be some disappointment for some of the fans of the original game. It is no secret that SC2, and new games in general, are being catered to casuals and the remaining foreign BW community is pretty hardcore by now. Hence the low interest for SC2 for some in the BW community. But saying that BW fans don’t like SC2 because they “didn’t gave it a chance” etc. is ridicules. BW fans were by far the most hyped when SC2 was announced. Also, this wouldn’t really be an issue if BW players weren’t forced to switch to a less developed game. I can imagine that SC2 fans would be pretty upset if every SC2 pro switched to LoL See i don't believe all of this about BW fans being hyped for SC2. It seems plausible on the surface but let's look at this logically. The only way BW fans would accept SC2 is if it was EXACTLY the śame but with better graphics. This was never going to happen. It doesn't matter how good SC2 is/will be because it will never actually be BW. This is the major point, it will never be BW, and it was never going to actually be BW. Therefor it will never be able to reach the standards set. This will actually happen until the end of time. Agreat game is released, when the inevitable sequel is released, it's subject to all the hate SC2 is. And btw, i agree and hope SC2 is improved alot into the future, but i still believe some people will never ever be satified with it because it's not their baby gem BW is. You're talking out of your ass, why bother posting something this ignorant? Why don't you expand on your post?
How about you actually bother to read the damn thread (let alone all the previous discussions regarding this topic)? I already "expanded on my post" a couple of pages earlier...
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The full translation was both funny and touching at points. I'm not sure about the feasibility of having progamers practice for two seperate games simultaneously, but I'll certainly support them as best I can.
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I like the idea of full reset
Everyone has a chance now, Flash winning is so boring !!
Go B players !!
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On April 22 2012 14:04 Sinensis wrote:
I think a mixed SC2/BW league is a mistake but I am going to give it a chance. I'd honestly rather have a mixed LoL/BW league for a few reasons:
- The league would have a team game and a 1v1 game; "modern esports" seem to be gravitating toward team based play.
- LoL has viewership and a gigantic following that dwarfs Sc2's.
- We don't have to watch Sc2 and LoL is easier to ignore.
- Fantasy, Bisu, etc all the greats wouldn't be forced into playing Sc2... they could still switch if they wanted.
- LAN and usability
One of the coaches said it best, we wouldn't even be discussing this if Sc2 weren't called Sc2.
This isn't the worst thing I've read in this thread. LoL is an interesting idea because although it's big and also important to OGN, I don't think the teams themselves share any interest. Not like eSTRO or Wemade's CS teams, or for instance, KT, hite, MBC, eSTRO, SKT, and STX all had Special Force teams. This is all hypothetical of course, as one pillar of the institutionalization of esports, Air Force ACE, would almost certainly not bother with whatever the other game is. I'll keep thinking, though.
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On April 22 2012 13:17 densha wrote:
Your point seems kind of moot when "flavor of the month" in this case means "10+ years".
The FPS and fighting game scenes seem to move in and out of games quickly, which I think is sad. However, with Starcraft, we're talking about Blizzard. There are still two expansions coming for SC2 followed by a period of balance patches for sure. After that we could consider the game actually "finished". The chance Blizzard would go right into making and releasing SC3 even within ten years after that is slim IMO.
...
The other point on that though was already mentioned in the article I think: even though BW's popularity has grown some, SC2's growth has been orders of magnitude bigger. Do you really think it's even at all realistic to think that BW could even possibly approach that kind of popularity with SC2 already there (and still growing)? Why would the multitudes of SC2 fans want to watch a game with worse graphics, in 4:3 aspect ratio, with no production tab or other spectator conveniences, etc etc etc.? The fact that an SC2 scene is already firmly established with fan favorites, villains, kongs, match-up specialists, intertwining storylines, and things like that also makes your idea somewhat impossible.
Anyway, I'm not saying one game is better than the other or trying to come down on you or anything, but I don't think you're looking at where SC2 is at with foreigners in a realistic way.
i'm into the fighting game scene. stick a new number or a balance patch on a game and everyone will migrate to it. yeah, i understand that.
that's why i'm so impressed with BW. how many RTS games have come out since BW? why does everyone keep going back to BW and seeing it as such a great game? in fact, that's what drew me to watch BW. (actually i don't play, i just watch.)
one of the best things about BW is that it grew in the absence of blizzard. almost everything was under KeSPA control, like maps, etc., and they cultivated the game. all this stuff... is now in the hands of blizzard. no LAN, you need permission to host tournaments, ladder maps, etc. i think that kind of community-led scene is essential for sustainable growth and it's been one of the fundamental differences between BW and fighting games and one that's worth evaluating.
can you really say SC2's scene is growing at a constant, stable rate and that it is even more sustainable for the future than BW? i can't. just browsing and reading through random topics, there's already controversy in korean vs. foreign scenes, lack of new players, lack of new talent, etc. in fact, i think this is exactly the wave that BW rode in Korea, and once it peaked they were not prepared for the downward slide. they didn't do enough work to grow the scene at a grassroots level and they banked on the short-term fans, not to mention all the scandals. (losing MBC was a huge blow and arguably whatever MBC switched to is doing even worse.)
if BW picks up a new fan nowadays (and it really does happen, just look at the LR threads and viewer numbers for streams), do you think they're gonna go anywhere? that's why i think BW still has value, and that's why i think that switching to SC2 won't change anything, or in fact, change it for the worse. instead of taking something that can be stablized with a product they know and cultivated, they're switching to something completely new, with no knowledge of its future and not as much control, and expecting it to be more stable.
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man that coaches interview was depressing. They kept promising that the level of play in sc2 would be good when I don't care how good their play is in SC2. I care about how shitty the BW matches will be. I've seen high-level sc2 games and it's just as boring as low-level sc2 matches. I guess this OSL really is the last BW event
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EDIT: W/e don't care anymore this thread is become over run by randoms. Some of us been repeating the same shit for quite some time and I've come to just accept that theres just no point anymore.
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Italy12246 Posts
Interesting read, thanks for posting the full translation.
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Hmm what would be the most workable format? Maybe instead of alternating each game they should alternate each round? Or maybe play standard and have a sc2 round sort of like winners league.
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Huge thanks to OpticalShot, must have taken quite some time!
Edit: Also, either in Season 2 or when SC2 becomes full-time for these progamers, being Masters on the Korean server for progamers suddenly becomes a lot more normal or OK.
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I'm a complete BW nooby and the interview mentioned that SC2 would be implemented in the next season of PL. Is there a date on that? How much of a break is there between PL's?
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can you really say SC2's scene is growing at a constant, stable rate and that it is even more sustainable for the future than BW? i can't. just browsing and reading through random topics
Random topics mean little when in comparison to viewership numbers, there is a reason MLG has made SC2 its flagship "event", even above CoD and Halo. MLG has for years been a Halo even, but even they realised that SC2 was/is bigger. There is a reason why the biggest gaming site (at least in terms of hits) IGN has their own SC2 tournament, there is a reason why CBSi has gotten into SC2 aswell.
You just browsing on TL does not mean much, on every hardcore gaming site people complain about every little thing. SC2 has what BW does not have right now, a big presence.
What game has a realistic chance of still being relevant in foreign markets in 2-3 years? SC2 or BW? BW has as big of a chance to be big in the west as disco has a chance of coming back.
This idea that SC2 and Blizzard are here to destroy BW and put a bullet in its head is so misguided, the game was losing viewership even in Korea years before even SC2 came out. If anything SC2 is here to extend the love of RTS games, its as close to BW as possible without being a full blown remake.
Without SC2, BW would be in the exact same position, the "enemy" for some of you would just be League of Legends instead, which at this point is a juggernaut in esports, there is plenty of complaining about that game but it gets 100k viewers easily, SC2 gets 40-50k on big events.
I wish BW was in LoLs shoes and was the biggest esports game in 2012 and in 2022 and in 2050. BW deserves it, but that's not reality and there is no chance in hell that it can happen today, that boat sailed away a long time. Kespa as a organization has to think of its own survival, the players, coaches and staff love for competitive gaming, primarly RTS games, and what else is there than SC2? What choice do they have here? If it wasent for SC2, they litterally would have nowhere else to go than switch genres, they would almost be forced to take on LoL, maybe strike a deal with Valve on DOTA 2 or god forbid start showing MMO "esports" just to survive.
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On April 22 2012 19:39 Alva` wrote:
I'm a complete BW nooby and the interview mentioned that SC2 would be implemented in the next season of PL. Is there a date on that? How much of a break is there between PL's?
probably somewhere in early- mid may,
but nobody fucking knows
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Eh, I kinda think that BW actually might be in a slightly better position if SC2 was never made since Blizzard wouldn't have done the IP rights lawsuit or at least wouldn't have made it as serious as it turned out to be, so the scene would've been in a slightly better position.
However, I also think that perhaps the announcement SC2 may have boosted BW's popularity by a bit, but I'm not sure since I didn't follow the scene back then.
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On April 22 2012 19:52 DeadBull wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 19:39 Alva` wrote:
I'm a complete BW nooby and the interview mentioned that SC2 would be implemented in the next season of PL. Is there a date on that? How much of a break is there between PL's? probably somewhere in early- mid may, but nobody fucking knows
Well in the interview it said PL starts in may so it better fucking start in may . If KESPA manages to find an other broadcasting station like OGN they could again separate BW and SC2 in to different aspects of PL in the future . If the format gets popular they can keep it , but it's very uncomfortable for the progamers right now .
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EPT
