EPTTerran is the hardest race to play, and in life in general, high risk... high reward. That goes for everything in life.
Balance and Bonjwas: A Statistical Analysis - Page 7
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tranmillitary
210 Posts
Terran is the hardest race to play, and in life in general, high risk... high reward. That goes for everything in life. | ||
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b0lt
United States789 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Terran went 3-6 vs protoss in matches, zerg went 9-1, clearly this shows that terran is OP!!!!!!! nerf plz blizzard!!!!! | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On April 01 2012 03:23 b0lt wrote: OSL prelim spoilers: + Show Spoiler + Terran went 3-6 vs protoss in matches, zerg went 9-1, clearly this shows that terran is OP!!!!!!! nerf plz blizzard!!!!! So, did you even read the OP? T has a disadvantage vP while Z has an advantage vP that was amplified by the maps. But worry not, this is very much an easy terran title! | ||
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MageKirby
United States535 Posts
On April 01 2012 03:23 b0lt wrote: OSL prelim spoilers: + Show Spoiler + Terran went 3-6 vs protoss in matches, zerg went 9-1, clearly this shows that terran is OP!!!!!!! nerf plz blizzard!!!!! OP said terran has an advantage at individual league cuz their mirror, TvT, is less fraudulent than, say, a zerg mirror, ZvZ. So a better player terran player does not have to be leagues ahead of his peers in order to be a consistent winner, while players from races like zerg and protoss do. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On March 29 2012 11:49 Lightwip wrote: Brood War is one of the most balanced games ever created. In fact, it may be the most balanced competitive game ever created, an amazing feat given the fact that the three races of Brood War are about as different from each other as they could possibly be. Indeed, the game is very well-balanced, and it's very hard to tell which race is superior when just starting to play. Yet, although it is hard to admit it for many fans of the game, there is one race which is clearly superior to them all. Meet Brood War's favorite child: Terran. The introduction to your OP is so poorly thought out that I can't venture to read anything else. Let me loosely interpret it here: "Brood War is balanced. Brood War is balanced. Three different races but Brood War is balanced. Brood War is balanced. Races seem evely matched at first BUT... Brood War is clearly imbalanced. Meet Terran." It's just Schizophrenic. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:05 Fyodor wrote: The introduction to your OP is so poorly thought out that I can't venture to read anything else. Let me loosely interpret it here: "Brood War is balanced. Brood War is balanced. Three different races but Brood War is balanced. Brood War is balanced. Races seem evely matched at first BUT... Brood War is clearly imbalanced. Meet Terran." It's just Schizophrenic. If we're nitpicking, I like whatever I wrote more than anything with a typo, that's for sure. | ||
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BreakerD
United States159 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:20 BreakerD wrote: First of all I have to say that I still cant believe they dont consider Jaedong a bonjwas I mean wtf does the man have to do? He has won 5 SL. Dominated and destroyed some of the best. Gotta admit the game is balance. The only imbalance thing about BW is TERRAN TURTLE. That is probably the most dreadful thing out there, we've seen Flash come back from the point of rape and win with terran turtle. JD has to consistently beat Flash and Bisu for a period of time. He hasn't beat Bisu since 2009 IIRC. Even when him and flash were winning everything, Flash was handing his ass to on a platter so he could kiss it good-bye. The main problem with the OP arguement is that there is Pre FFE PvZ and Post FFE PvZ. Since Pre FFE PvZ was so heavily zerg favored, i imagine the the Post FFE PvZ is much closer to 50% if not more than 50%. This leaves TvZ as the black sheep because since the dawn of time, TvZ has always been Terran favored. Yellow < Xellos, Oov, Boxer, ... Savior was really only successful because the older generation out of their prime, while Flash not god yet. Jaedong < Flash (mostly), Light (a little bit), Skyhigh (this was silly) | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:42 Release wrote: JD has to consistently beat Flash and Bisu for a period of time. He hasn't beat Bisu since 2009 IIRC. Even when him and flash were winning everything, Flash was handing his ass to on a platter so he could kiss it good-bye. The main problem with the OP arguement is that there is Pre FFE PvZ and Post FFE PvZ. Since Pre FFE PvZ was so heavily zerg favored, i imagine the the Post FFE PvZ is much closer to 50% if not more than 50%. This leaves TvZ as the black sheep because since the dawn of time, TvZ has always been Terran favored. Yellow < Xellos, Oov, Boxer, ... Savior was really only successful because the older generation out of their prime, while Flash not god yet. Jaedong < Flash (mostly), Light (a little bit), Skyhigh (this was silly) I did warn about talking about a single era changing everything, didn't I? The simple fact is, each era is only part of a larger trend. Zergs have found ways to cope with FFE and ways to abuse it, and protoss to counter that. Zergs have found amazing builds like 3BS->5HH that net serious ZvP advantage. But it all balances out. The fact that our sample is as big as it is allows us to compensate for skew in the long term. Trends go every way, but over 32k games, I think it's fair to assume that if a trend exists, the sample size is certainly large enough to show it. | ||
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:10 Lightwip wrote: If we're nitpicking, I like whatever I wrote more than anything with a typo, that's for sure. It's not nitpicking, if you can't present your post in a cohesive, intelligent way then you don't offer any incentive to read more. You clearly contradicted yourself in the first paragraph... | ||
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Eun_Star
United States322 Posts
 He's not getting enough credit for being the best player in the world. He's absolutely amazing, with plenty of his fans to bash on other "scrubs" whenever possible. I'm sure he is proud. All players are on the same level in terms of skill....wait All players flipped coins to choose their race....wait Statistics explain everything....wait Bisu should play better, or just quit because he is just not good enough to overcome the imbalance in starcraft. Or, everyone should have ~50% winrate! That's perfectly balanced! :D Never respect a player in broodwar, because it's all about luck and imbalance. What a terrible game. Why did I bother watching this stupid game for +4 years? Such a waste of time. High risk, high reward? Wait, Bisu must be terrible at starcraft then! He picked the easy race! What a shame! | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:50 Lightwip wrote: I did warn about talking about a single era changing everything, didn't I? The simple fact is, each era is only part of a larger trend. Zergs have found ways to cope with FFE and ways to abuse it, and protoss to counter that. Zergs have found amazing builds like 3BS->5HH that net serious ZvP advantage. But it all balances out. The fact that our sample is as big as it is allows us to compensate for skew in the long term. Trends go every way, but over 32k games, I think it's fair to assume that if a trend exists, the sample size is certainly large enough to show it. Honestly beside Flash and Bisu, I don't see any other player set up trends in the metagame in the past 3 years. And the last person to do so was JD with Crazy Zerg. Stork have sort of tried to shift the way of playing PvZ with off the wall 1 base play but no one else really followed suit. If Protoss players really tried to mix things up with occational old school pre FFE, Zergs would have to be extra cautious of Hydra busting. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On May 17 2012 12:10 Eun_Star wrote: Poor Bisu He's not getting enough credit for being the best player in the world. He's absolutely amazing, with plenty of his fans to bash on other "scrubs" whenever possible. I'm sure he is proud. All players are on the same level in terms of skill....wait All players flipped coins to choose their race....wait Statistics explain everything....wait Bisu should play better, or just quit because he is just not good enough to overcome the imbalance in starcraft. Or, everyone should have ~50% winrate! That's perfectly balanced! :D Never respect a player in broodwar, because it's all about luck and imbalance. What a terrible game. Why did I bother watching this stupid game for +4 years? Such a waste of time. High risk, high reward? Wait, Bisu must be terrible at starcraft then! He picked the easy race! What a shame! Sadly, when you reach Bisu's level of gaming, Protoss isn't a good race to work with. It's an uphill battle on both sides | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On May 17 2012 12:11 Xiphos wrote: Honestly beside Flash and Bisu, I don't see any other player set up trends in the metagame in the past 3 years. And the last person to do so was JD with Crazy Zerg. Stork have sort of tried to shift the way of playing PvZ with off the wall 1 base play but no one else really followed suit. If Protoss players really tried to mix things up with occational old school pre FFE, Zergs would have to be extra cautious of Hydra busting. Setting trends is only part of it. Many innovations come and go in every matchup without ever really getting their time of day. They certainly do have a lasting effect, but they just get buried over time. It's just that because they're so quickly integrated into improving normal play, it's hard to see their effect so clearly, even if it's there. That helps balance things out over a long period of time to the point that you can start looking for long-term trends. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 17 2012 12:15 Lightwip wrote: Setting trends is only part of it. Many innovations come and go in every matchup without ever really getting their time of day. They certainly do have a lasting effect, but they just get buried over time. It's just that because they're so quickly integrated into improving normal play, it's hard to see their effect so clearly, even if it's there. That helps balance things out over a long period of time to the point that you can start looking for long-term trends. Honestly I thought the ZvZ hive shenanigans we saw over a year ago was there to stay with more and more Zerg players attempting to think outside of the box. But alas t'was not meant to be. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 17 2012 12:11 Xiphos wrote: Honestly beside Flash and Bisu, I don't see any other player set up trends in the metagame in the past 3 years. And the last person to do so was JD with Crazy Zerg. Stork have sort of tried to shift the way of playing PvZ with off the wall 1 base play but no one else really followed suit. If Protoss players really tried to mix things up with occational old school pre FFE, Zergs would have to be extra cautious of Hydra busting. Crazy Zerg was from the Zerg twins and Kwanro, not Jaedong. and lol @ not giving respect to Jaedong's contribution to ZvZ (everything changed). | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 17 2012 11:20 BreakerD wrote: First of all I have to say that I still cant believe they dont consider Jaedong a bonjwas I mean wtf does the man have to do? He has won 5 SL. Dominated and destroyed some of the best. Gotta admit the game is balance. The only imbalance thing about BW is TERRAN TURTLE. That is probably the most dreadful thing out there, we've seen Flash come back from the point of rape and win with terran turtle. The reason why not is that bonjwa means you are totally undisputed. If a logical argument can be made that someone is as good as you, then you aren't bonjwa. At the start of JD's career that somebody was Flash. Then when Flash started to slump Protoss had a great time with wins in, for example, Incruit OSL and ClubDay MSL (I think that's the one Bisu won around late 08/early 09 or so... this computer is lagging a bit so I'm not gonna double check on TLPD). So with Protoss winning the tournaments, JD couldn't be called the undisputed best. Then JD started winning the tournaments again, peaking at around August 09, but again he fell into rivalry, now with Fantasy who he beat in OSL 3-2 but lost twice to in the PL finals, and as soon as that got cleared up and JD looked to be crowned 5th bonjwa at Nate MSL, Flash was now dominating and JD's win over Flash suffered from the controversy of the blackout. Fans didn't really consider JD the better player, especially when Flash went on to dominate him later in convincing fashion. Probably he should have been crowned anyway, controversy or no. July's run could also be compared. In fact, the term bonjwa was first used by July's fans, but most fans could not acknowledge July as bonjwa when he lost 3-0 to NaDa and 3-0 to Oov in 2 of his 4 consecutive (?) OSL finals apperances during 04-05. Stork, Bisu, Fantasy, and Nal_Ra are all examples of players who were/are great but don't fit the bill at all since they could not/cannot be considered undisputed. That's a title earned over a long period of domination in which you are acknowledged as having no equal. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On May 17 2012 13:13 writer22816 wrote: Honestly why Lightwip hasn't been banned yet is a mystery to me, he has been trolling and starting flame wars ever since I came to TL. I don't seem to remember him bitching about Terran at the start, I think he was just another annoying Bisu fanboy. Someone should check to see if he's another alternate account of AzureEye. You're advocating someone being banned because they saying facts about your race that you don't like. It wasn't a flame war until people like you came along; it's a legit discussion about bonjwas and their statistics. All the bonjwas have been Terrans except Savior, that's a fact, not an opinion. Thank you for trying to backseat moderate | ||
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