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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:38 fabiano wrote: And create a fake personality? Be yourself, not a character. That's a lesson for life. Just furthering Ribbon's argument that Flash's storyline isn't as mystical as the guys from GSL. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:44 Xiphos wrote: Just furthering Ribbon's argument that Flash's storyline isn't as mystical as the guys from GSL. BW doesn't have stories? Did you miss jangbi's osl run last season? Every game flash's played this season were people anticipating his first loss, huge reaction when he lost to Dear and M18M. JvF's been such a staple rivalry along with TBLS and KT vs SKT. Leta and Firebathero have always done interesting ceremonies as well as being interesting characters. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:44 Xiphos wrote: Just furthering Ribbon's argument that Flash's storyline isn't as mystical as the guys from GSL. It was certainly mystical, back in 2009 when it was Flash and Jaedong competing for the title of Bonjwa. On April 14 2012 12:06 Caihead wrote: BW doesn't have stories? Did you miss jangbi's osl run last season? JangBi's OSL run was exactly the kind of thing BW needs more of, it got a lot of attention from people who don't normally play BW. And you don't need to make shit up or be a rodeo clown. A Kong Line player is interesting. A Royal Road is interesting. A guy who never makes it past the round of 16...can be interesting (See: Genius in SC2, who got good very suddenly after months of being okay. Hyuk all-killed STX back when he was a joke, and that's WAY more interesting than if Flash or Jaedong did it). Even the Legend of the Fall is just a statistical oddity that someone applied meaning to retroactively. Every game flash's played this season were people anticipating his first loss, huge reaction when he lost to Dear and M18M. JvF's been such a staple rivalry along with TBLS and KT vs SKT. After 3 years, I no longer care if Flash wins a lot. And Flash losing sets to players beneath him, while certainly uncommon, isn't really that big of a deal either. 80% win rate means he still loses 1 game out of 5, after all, sometimes to a Shuttle or a Dear. Leta and Firebathero have always done interesting ceremonies as well as being interesting characters. And BW fans need to talk about that more. Every single time BW fans try to get people to watch BW, they talk about how good the game is, and it's entirely the wrong track. Firebathero is interesting. Legend of the Fall is interesting. Flash isn't, not anymore, unless you appreciate his play itself, and you have to be involved in BW in order to really appreciate good play. | ||
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benjaminethanlim
Singapore25 Posts
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On April 14 2012 11:15 Ribbon wrote: In other words, to bring a point to all of this, what BW needs is a story. An angle. A reason to root for a player beyond just "he's good". The Legend of the Fall was such a story, and it did indeed bring a lot of attention. Lately, the GSL has these little vignettes for every single player saying who they are, and why you should care about them. MMA was a protege of Boxer and had huge hype but never quite lived up to it. Genius suddenly got good, but then only got silver last time, and is trying to prove he's second to none. Supernova makes the Ro32 every season and just wants someone to notice him. Bumblebee doesn't believe he's good enough. Etc etc etc. Every single player got something. That's something I think BW really needs. Are you a regular follower of BW? Aren't you simply assuming that BW players don't have things going about them because you don't really know about them? TBLS? bonjwas? legend of the fall? six dragons? boxer-yellow rivalry? kong line? If those aren't spectacles I don't know what is. There are plenty of interesting players now and there have been plenty of them in the past. Also, people often root for dominating players simply because they dominate. People enjoy seeing their favorite players in tense games and erupt in happiness when they win and become sad when they occasionally lose. It's called being a fan. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 14 2012 17:58 white_horse wrote: Are you a regular follower of BW? Aren't you simply assuming that BW players don't have things going about them because you don't really know about them? TBLS? bonjwas? legend of the fall? six dragons? boxer-yellow rivalry? kong line? If those aren't spectacles I don't know what is. There are plenty of interesting players now and there have been plenty of them in the past. Also, people often root for dominating players simply because they dominate. People enjoy seeing their favorite players in tense games and erupt in happiness when they win and become sad when they occasionally lose. It's called being a fan. Of course BW has had stories! I mentioned several, and I was a big fan of Hyuk specifically because of his, where he was a joke and then all-killed STX and made Cholera eat his hateful words (one of the very few BW series I actually re-watch occasionally). But, except for the brief and much appreciated Legend of the Fall, the last THREE YEARS of Brood War centered around "wow, Flash wins a lot", and that loses its punch after a while. And most people DON'T, actually, root for dominant player, generally. "People" tend to root for the underdog, especially in 1vs1 games. Nobody rooted for Rocky Marciano. You never see a Hollywood movie about a dominant team coming together to smash some no-names. The biggest mistake Pro Wrestling companies do is have their biggest star be their biggest star for too long and have him lose his luster (see, Hulk Hogan, Triple H, Jeff Jarett, etc). Yeah, people root for Michael Jordans and Jeremy Lins, but those are players on teams, so it's not like they win all the time, even if they consistently do well. Muhammad Ali was the underdog against Sonny Liston to win the heavyweight title, and a HUGE underdog against George Forman to win it back. They made a movie about his fight with Chuck Wepner. They called it Rocky. It is the only fight Ali went into as the clear favorite anyone gives a shit about, and solely because of the Rocky connection. The Flash-Jaedong rivalry was great. But it's over. Flash won long ago, and not even Jaedong is worthy of being his rival. Flash's "role" is to be the antagonist to someone else's amazing rise. But no one's up to the challenge. What would've been the best "arc" dramatically would be for Flash and Jaedong to have a long rivalry, for Flash to pull ahead and become recognized as the fifth Bonjwa, and for him to be recognized as such for a couple of months of being clearly a bonjwa before someone else came along that could maybe take him. No other Bonjwa ruled even close to as long as Flash has, without any real opposition. He can't be a Muhammad Ali without a Joe Frazier. He's just a Rocky Marciano. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On April 14 2012 14:17 Ribbon wrote: In other words, to bring a point to all of this, what BW needs is a story. An angle. A reason to root for a player beyond just "he's good". The Legend of the Fall was such a story, and it did indeed bring a lot of attention. Lately, the GSL has these little vignettes for every single player saying who they are, and why you should care about them. MMA was a protege of Boxer and had huge hype but never quite lived up to it. Genius suddenly got good, but then only got silver last time, and is trying to prove he's second to none. Supernova makes the Ro32 every season and just wants someone to notice him. Bumblebee doesn't believe he's good enough. Etc etc etc. Every single player got something. That's something I think BW really needs. From your post I'm not even sure you follow BW, which precisely is the problem. Aside from what others have pointed out we had Bisu recovering from a year long slump, Hoejja Jangbi and Best shedding the title of loser king, JD beating flash 4-1, Jaehoon not failing etc etc etc. Are you seriously telling me to advertise the game by telling people about what they might reasonably classify as nerd drama. Not about how fun the game is but because other teenage boys play the games and lead very dramatic lives within the gaming world because they're unique snowflakes. Nevermind the fact that some people like the sc2 pro scenes because they have played the game at some point in thier lives and thus have a vested interest in the scene. Were you even here when there was the Blizzard vs Kespa lawsuit? Blizzard wants to control the scene.Do you understand what would happen if kespa started charging for streams right now? Blizzard would be quick to sue and then no one would want to sponsor such an unstable scene ever again. Are you seriously telling me Blizzard didn't forsee what would happen if they sued? Reality is they don't give a crap about BW, SC2 sales is what makes them money not BW, interest in BW was standing in the way of more SC2 sales. In the end they got thier ass handed to them but the damage was been done. Now Kespa and Blizzard have to play nice with each other which brings us this debacle. We're not angry that BW is dying. What we're not cool with is the fact that external forces played a large part in killing BW, I'm still amazed at how a foriegn scene just vanishes overnight when a stupid game with the same name + the number two appears on the market. | ||
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
Why do you put people in quotation marks? That makes no sense. And no, I don't think they would root for a random rookie who hasn't proven himself over Flash. Sure close games or awesome plays might inspire a fan base but I'm pretty sure people don't consciously think of who has a less chance of winning and automatically root for him. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:35 deathgod6 wrote: ^ "People" tend to root for the underdog, especially in 1vs1 games. Why do you put people in quotation marks? That makes no sense. Oops. I was going to distinguish between normal people/casual and more hardcore fans, who do like the dominant player. And no, I don't think they would root for a random rookie who hasn't proven himself over Flash. Well, no, not if he's just some jobber. Sure close games or awesome plays might inspire a fan base but I'm pretty sure people don't consciously think of who has a less chance of winning and automatically root for him. I actually do. I nearly always root against Flash/Jaedong :/ (Not Bisu, though, because it's his OSL etc, and that's a perfectly good story) I suppose I shouldn't be acting like BW doesn't have stories at all, which wasn't exactly what I meant. What I meant was is, with the exception of the Legend of the Fall (which DID attract SC2 fans), the main thing SC2 people know about the BW scene is that Flash is God, and always will be. On April 14 2012 18:34 TrainSamurai wrote: We're not angry that BW is dying. What we're not cool with is the fact that external forces played a large part in killing BW Bullshit. BW's problems are because Savior ruined the game's image, and the game was 100% dependent on that image because BW fans were too spoiled to pay for it, meaning sponsor money was the only money. The Korean SC2 scene doesn't matter, and the foreign BW scene has never been relevant. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On April 14 2012 18:41 Ribbon wrote: Bullshit. BW's problems are because Savior ruined the game's image, and the game was 100% dependent on that image because BW fans were too spoiled to pay for it, meaning sponsor money was the only money. The Korean SC2 scene doesn't matter, and the foreign BW scene has never been relevant. External to the game. Savior match fixing didn't give lurkers -50 atk. The game is still good as ever. | ||
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morlakaix
United States860 Posts
In all of the communties I have been a part of, the BW fans have been the most elitist, knowitall group I have ever met, not sure why they can't just accept a new game coming in(and it's not even REPLACING BW, its just going to be aside it) Maybe people should just have an open mind, ever though of that? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:09 TrainSamurai wrote: External to the game. Savior match fixing didn't give lurkers -50 atk. The game is still good as ever. Are we talking about the eSports scene or the game itself here? On April 14 2012 19:20 morlakaix wrote: I am a fan of both scenes, but why do BW fans have to be SO fucking bitter about sc2. In all of the communties I have been a part of, the BW fans have been the most elitist, knowitall group I have ever met, not sure why they can't just accept a new game coming in(and it's not even REPLACING BW, its just going to be aside it) Maybe people should just have an open mind, ever though of that? I don't know about anyone else, but if it switches to SC2 I would still follow somewhat. Having BW AND SC2 joint league, however, is like having a CS 1.6 and CS:S joint league, or LoL and Dota 2 joint league. In the end, having two separate games in a same league is like saying Soccer and Baseball should be joined together for a joint World Cup series. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:09 TrainSamurai wrote: External to the game. Savior match fixing didn't give lurkers -50 atk. The game is still good as ever. BW televised matches and tournaments costs money. To raise that money, their need to find sponsors. Savior's match fixing made national news, BW purity was lost and that really hurt BW's sponsorships. Now was it that hard to understand? | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:21 supernovamaniac wrote: Are we talking about the eSports scene or the game itself here? Game was good enough to start a proscene (unlike some other game I will not mention). Scumbag match fixes but the game is still the same game that starts proscene. Savior was external to the game that started the proscene. Probably should have said it better but I thought it was obvious from the context. On April 14 2012 19:21 chongu wrote: BW televised matches and tournaments costs money. To raise that money, their need to find sponsors. Savior's match fixing made national news, BW purity was lost and that really hurt BW's sponsorships. Now was it that hard to understand? I'm so sorry that way of thinking never crossed my mind at all, I am just too smart for my own good and usually normal people can't keep up. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
just because they to some extent talk with/to the community? as an example you could look at GSL OffTheRecord...i like the idea behind the show just like i loved to watch nal_ra and his series on OGN. the problem is there arent too many personalitites in sc2...its always the same players that get ALOT of "airtime" (drg,nada,mc,mkp). and to be honest i rather watch soulkey for his great play (queens!) than his personality... | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:27 TrainSamurai wrote: Game was good enough to start a proscene (unlike some other game I will not mention). Scumbag match fixes but the game is still the same game that starts proscene. Savior was external to the game that started the proscene. Probably should have said it better but I thought it was obvious from the context. I'm so sorry that way of thinking never crossed my mind at all, I am just too smart for my own good and usually normal people can't keep up. Yeah, the companies could careless about the amazing game if the scene is declining. Stay on topic. | ||
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InFdude
Bulgaria619 Posts
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morlakaix
United States860 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:21 supernovamaniac wrote: Are we talking about the eSports scene or the game itself here? I don't know about anyone else, but if it switches to SC2 I would still follow somewhat. Having BW AND SC2 joint league, however, is like having a CS 1.6 and CS:S joint league, or LoL and Dota 2 joint league. In the end, having two separate games in a same league is like saying Soccer and Baseball should be joined together for a joint World Cup series. "LoL and Dota 2" Oh god nevermind, LoL is a terrible game. You can't really compare BW vs SC2 with Lol vs Dota2 though.... SC2 isnt a TERRIBLE game | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:57 morlakaix wrote: "LoL and Dota 2" Oh god nevermind, LoL is a terrible game. You can't really compare BW vs SC2 with Lol vs Dota2 though.... SC2 isnt a TERRIBLE game ...What? All I'm trying to say here is that KeSPA is trying to join two "similar" games together for a joint league. If you really want to make an argument with LoL and Dota 2, complain about it somewhere else; I have no intention to discuss which game is terrible and which game is amazing. | ||
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Surgical_Strike
United States72 Posts
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