The replays section of the site has all 5 replays.
Gurram beat Trek 4-1, and he was obviously a huge underdog.
Now other than reporting the match, there was another reason I'm posting this. I watched the replays, and foundout from BWchart that Gurram doesn't use hotkeys and yet was still able to win.
Now fine, the games weren't great, and they didn't mean anything since it was only a showmatch, and Trek is addicted to WoW...but in my eyes playing with no hotkeys is as much of a handicap as playing mouse only. And Trek even in his worst shape in a game he could care less about, is still a pG member and certainly not easy to beat.
So I guess I can't really articulate this well, but...what the fuck? Anyone else hear of a good player that doesn't use hotkeys?
On August 20 2005 20:05 Sabbath wrote: btw no hotkeys isnt like mouse only, you can still use the commands with the keyboard, doesnt hurt as much for p as it does for other races i guess
Doesn't hurt even for pvt? I haven't watched the reps yet, but I would think you would need to hotkey some gates for decent macro to beat trek ;/
On August 20 2005 20:05 Sabbath wrote: btw no hotkeys isnt like mouse only, you can still use the commands with the keyboard, doesnt hurt as much for p as it does for other races i guess
Doesn't hurt even for pvt? I haven't watched the reps yet, but I would think you would need to hotkey some gates for decent macro to beat trek ;/
well i would think it would hurt micro more but maybe not so (im a terran player)
and dont get me wrong i still think its VERY strange that he used no hotkeys and still beat trek 4-1
it doesnt hurt your macro when you're a protoss player except when you are zealot rushing in pvz. protoss units take long enough to build to give you the opportunity to make units without having any gates hotkeyed.
it really is quite possible to play with protoss without hotkeys the main disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is if you're using a lot of shuttles. like nazgul used to play with only buildings hotkeyed. which is really not all that different from using no hotkeys at all when you are protoss.
if a terran or zerg can do the same then I will be very surprised though.
On August 20 2005 21:18 NeoIllusions wrote: You really think PvT would be at the same level if gates weren't hotkeyed?
I don't see why you need to hotkey gateways. It's a lot faster to mouse through gateways hitting d/z than it is to hit 1d2z3d4z, etc, and late game when you have 10+ gateways, using hotkeys for them isn't feasible. But to not use hotkeys for units is unthinkable to me. There's no way to get all of your troops to simotaneously assault a push without hotkeys. Mouse grabbing and atacking moving just doesn't cut it.
Gurram has never played with hotkeys, and even when he beat good kreans at PGT, he didnt use them. He dont use hotkeys on gateways either, just if he has like carriers or muttas, when it's so hard to keep reselecting them over and over again. And yes he has been able to beat players of treks skill for a long time now, beating twisted pvz owning spawn pvt in the NW and by that time he was inactive also. It is strange that you guys didnt know, and didnt know about gurram how good he is, imo he is kinda easy on of the best tosses in europe, his PVZ can compete with dracos and fisheyes easy, same goes with his pvt. He dont play pvp tho, he playes zvp where he could beat semi-pros etc, beat leg 3-0 or something in TLT. And yes he is pure macro player, but dont underestiamte is micro cuz it's insane. I stayed at his house for a week, I have been to lans with him and it's funny when he is sitting there draging his mouse over the units over and over again when he's moving them backwards while storming with templars :D
And do you remember that Interview with a korean proteam coach? he said they were looking for pure skills, handspeed etc, guess if gurram started use hotkeys (which he most likely wont) but anyway, now he dont have any job anymore so he's gonna massgame alot, play the ladders etc, and I really hope to see him in TmG/mYm/SSV very soon cuz there's where he belong.
But if u have gates on hotheys u clikc 4 5 6 7 and then with using mouse clicking on the prtins of units. It's the fastes way. When u have more than 7 gates in pvt u dont user hotheys too.
But doesnt he use ever 1 2 3 hotkeys for units? :|
Wiget, no that is what it is all about, he dont uses them for units for buildings, not for anything. And ofcourse he klickes on p when he builds a probe or z for a zealot. But when he moves his units he slectes them with the mouse over and over again.
On August 21 2005 01:22 ZpuX wrote: Wiget, no that is what it is all about, he dont uses them for units for buildings, not for anything. And ofcourse he klickes on p when he builds a probe or z for a zealot. But when he moves his units he slectes them with the mouse over and over again.
without trying to take anything away from gurram victory I must say that trek not really played his best at all. I mean come one, you don't let a protoss get away with fast expo on 12/3 THAT easily...
gurram is good, sure thing, not top 5 foreigner p, hell not even close to top 10 foreigner.
I will never understand how one can play without even hotkeying his units. It was one of the first things I did myself, I did it in like the SC game I ever played -_- and he DEFINITELY would profit from it, if he took the time to learn using them. As Eri said, you can't rush nearly as good PvZ without using hotkeys and as someone else said breaking pushes/contains in PvT must be a lot harder as well (same goes for breaking contain in PvZ). There is NOT disadvantage at all using hotkeys, it ONLY has advantages, it's just so NATURAL to hotkey your units....
tell that to a person who ahsent used hotkeys for 5 years.... and do u mean he's not top5 tosses in europe too? tt back in WSL, and such ladders, he RUSHED everyone, he even rushed timothy cross posses on JR's memory
On August 20 2005 21:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: it doesnt hurt your macro when you're a protoss player except when you are zealot rushing in pvz. protoss units take long enough to build to give you the opportunity to make units without having any gates hotkeyed.
it really is quite possible to play with protoss without hotkeys the main disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is if you're using a lot of shuttles. like nazgul used to play with only buildings hotkeyed. which is really not all that different from using no hotkeys at all when you are protoss.
if a terran or zerg can do the same then I will be very surprised though.
Agreed, PvT is very playable without hotkeys it's just a complete different style of management. Many toss players hotkeys their buildings only esp in PvT
TvP can also be played with very little hotkeys ( esp if your style is slow push / macro ) but I can't think of someone who would be able to play semi-pro level TvZ without hotkeys
inc, sorry, but then tell me those 5 p players who are better, and I do think I have a better overview of the scene than you. Have you ever seen him play?
i actually think gurram is definately top5 tosses, from what i've seen there isn't much doubt. he's become a more solid player lately somehow (he didn't play extra much).
with naz, rekrul, smuft not in the picture i really can't say one protoss that is that much better. fisheye in better shape than his current one and draco i guess, then i really see noone!
Yeah i've seen him play offline, he does not hotkey anything, and it's fucking insane. I wouldn't be able to play one single mu without hotkeys since my micromanagement cannot handle it, he seems to be fine with it though :o
I would say hes easily one of the best protossplayers out there, I dunno about top5 though, but when I list them I cant find alot players that are better than him. Would be.. Fisheye,draco, and uh.. Rekrul maybe.
Agreed with top 5 toss hes very good I use to play with no hotkeys up until about 1.5 years ago, honestly I could play PvT just as good as I do now without them but PvZ is just a little bit harder but just selecting and re-selecting isnt as bad as everyone thinks. Often I go 1a2a3a4a like 2 times and not all of my groups move so I end up just drag selecting everything and moving it in..
On August 20 2005 21:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: it doesnt hurt your macro when you're a protoss player except when you are zealot rushing in pvz. protoss units take long enough to build to give you the opportunity to make units without having any gates hotkeyed.
it really is quite possible to play with protoss without hotkeys the main disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is if you're using a lot of shuttles. like nazgul used to play with only buildings hotkeyed. which is really not all that different from using no hotkeys at all when you are protoss.
if a terran or zerg can do the same then I will be very surprised though.
Gurram playz zvp.
Anyhow, that LX (aka PNZ=Legendary) guy who beat boxer, PJ and played to a draw vs Kingdom is probably better than gurram ! But, other than that I dunno o_o There's really not as many great protoss players as there once was even in europe so yeah. Top 5 sounds acceptable
I've known gurram ever since I started BW and seen him play offline as well as online. Just before the games vs trek we had a LAN, ppl from our city Umeå, and I played like 40+ games vs him. It's still quite unbelievable for me how he can outmacro me so eaz and controll everything without using hotkeys.
Whenever you look at a replay with some good toss and see that he only ever hotkeys his first scouting probe - it's bound to be gurram.
And "inc." please just shut up. Anyone who knows something is entiteled to an opinion, and yes, mine and zpux etc are a bit biased but that changes nothing. Back when WSL was going on NO ONE knew him and I dled all his reps vs Oversky (2-1), Nal_GG (2-0), BlueK (1-1) not to mention all good non-koreans. Hell he had like 6-0 vs Zelotito ZvP and even record vs Willet in that ladder.
And this TLT season, he would have made the playoffs if only he wouldnt have prioritised partying on 1st of may before TLT and let a friend of lesser skill try to manage it. Even though he didn't qualify he still beat for example yan 2-0 easy in the last days, while playing pretty even with most zergs.
Since trek is inactive, this wasn't that big of a surprise to me. And he was not an underdog - he would have been an underdog if trek actually played bw.
well I refuse to believe that he's actually REALLY good zvp without using any hotkeys.
good, sure, but he could be way way way better. the biggest skill increase I've ever had was when I started hotkeying hatcheries as zerg. and units are equally important.
oh, and gurram plays Zerg and Terran without hotkeys the same, and he plays them very very good - especially TvP and ZvP.
edit: well ZvP is his worst so mby you are right. But he doesnt build units with "select hatch, select larvae, select unit", he just "select larvae (all nearby with one double click), select unit" so I don't think it's really that important with hotkeys..
I misunderstood, I thought by no hotkeys you meant you played without using hotkeys. Which IS mouse only. He played without assigning a hotkey to any structures or units.
Yes, Gurram is very good, maybe TOP5(still I doubt though) but after Fisheye and Draco there are several about as good as he is, like Pride, Clawson, Fayth and stuff. :o
In every game he hotkeyed his scouting probe. That is all. Nothing else.
In the one pvt game he went Carriers...and still didn't hotkey them or any other units and he had a 200 sup army. o_0
And as far as people saying he's top 5 euro toss, I guess I wouldn't know. But the quality of these games certainly didn't scream of skill. It looked more like Trek playing half drunk. But all I can say is that based on this series (which is all I've seen of Gurram) he isn't even in the same universe as Draco or Fisheye (inactive or not) and certainly not even close to Eri or Testie either in PvT or PvZ (which they both kick ass at ) And Fayth, Pride, and Clawson, still play more solid IMO.
I don't know of many other good players that play toss and are exposed, but I would hazzard to guess that he is being overrated in this thread just an itty bitty bit. Good for Gurram. He beat a good player in a showmatch and plays in an unorthadox way. That's enough to impress me. Now I'll keep an eye out for this guy.
P.S. Anyone got other replays of this guy playing good players? I'd be interested to see some ladder games of him for TLT or whatever else he's played.
hmm ManaBlue, that is the way he played, and always have. He didnt play any special strats just because it was a KOTH (not a showgame) and yes he is better than eri in both pvt and pvz. He is currently playing some gamei, like 1469 raiting there now with 27-11 stats.
And did u see clawson vs spawn games? yes sure, clawson was in a bad shape etc, but he still didnt stand much of a chance, have u seen gurram vs spawn? gurram made spawn look like a little newbie
On August 21 2005 07:50 ZpuX wrote: hmm ManaBlue, that is the way he played, and always have. He didnt play any special strats just because it was a KOTH (not a showgame) and yes he is better than eri in both pvt and pvz. He is currently playing some gamei, like 1469 raiting there now with 27-11 stats.
And did u see clawson vs spawn games? yes sure, clawson was in a bad shape etc, but he still didnt stand much of a chance, have u seen gurram vs spawn? gurram made spawn look like a little newbie
I didn't see Gurram vs Spawn. Reps? And I've never been a Clawson fan so sure.
But I think you're going a little off the handle to say he's better PvT and even more to say he's better PvZ than Eri. Eri rocks my socks off PvT and even more PvZ! Seriously, I just don't buy it. I'll have to see more of Gurram, but he's not better than Eri. No way.
oh I think it's likely that he's better pvt at least right now maybe better at everything although if I play 10 games I'll unrust. but im better with zerg than protoss anyway.
We'll FA is sending me some reps from TLT so I guess I'll have a better opinion to show after watching.
I think it's also vital to say Gurram averaged about 130 APM in the Trek series. 130 APM no hotkeys.... I still can't believe he's a competitive player. His APM dis is all move and attack move pretty much. It looks like the report from an East pubby.
On August 21 2005 08:23 Liquid`Drone wrote: oh I think it's likely that he's better pvt at least right now maybe better at everything although if I play 10 games I'll unrust. but im better with zerg than protoss anyway.
hmm well I can try to rank my matchups 1 : zvp 2 : zvt 3 : pvz 4 : pvp 5 : pvt 6 : tvp 7 : tvz 8 : zvz 9 : tvt thats how I think it is. zvt I'm inconsistent as hell but when I'm playing well then im playing really, really, really well. fast ensnare+lurker ling is so incredibly powerful yet not used by anyone else and it gives me a huge advantage that makes up for my not very good macro.
Well I just watched 2 games of FA(P) vs Gurram(Z). Still no hotkeys. One game stood out in particular, it was a 45 min late game with the 2 fighting for resources. FA won, but Gurram was controling big hydra/ling and ultra/ling armies without hotkeys. Still low APM around 130. The lack of hoykeys shows in his play as P and even more as Z. Most really good players kinda massage their units as they move them to keep the army close (no stray units, temps with lots, etc.) Gurrams units just attack move around in a straight line and that gets him into trouble some times. Even more so with ultraling.
Other than that I haven't seen any glaring defects in his play. Macro seems good enough for the level he's at. I'm just amazed he plays this well with no hotkeying. But IMO he could benefit from control groups of units to help him manipulate them better. But holyshit, he's plays really well using a very unorthadox system.
On August 21 2005 08:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: hmm well I can try to rank my matchups 1 : zvp 2 : zvt 3 : pvz 4 : pvp 5 : pvt 6 : tvp 7 : tvz 8 : zvz 9 : tvt thats how I think it is. zvt I'm inconsistent as hell but when I'm playing well then im playing really, really, really well. fast ensnare+lurker ling is so incredibly powerful yet not used by anyone else and it gives me a huge advantage that makes up for my not very good macro.
Bitch, you obsed me vs rapide !?!?
I played a few games with lurk/ling/queen on gamei too, mad fun ;D
I use to observe gurram a little irl from time to time since i live just a couple of blocks away from him. hes not that super fast with the mouse, actually. and the thing im most impressed with is that he use close to the lowest mouse sensitivity. also he doesnt build most things pressing for example "b + o"( for observatory) at the keyboard but he press "b" then with the mouse he select the observatory pic. and as zpux or someone said, he doesnt use hotkeyes with zerg or terran ether, thats just the way he play.
i think i had a fp vod with him which we recorded a while ago, ill try to find it if someone shows intrest.
And puerto, I also bet on Gurram, but only because of the percentages and after watching the games and seeing the BWchart I was just so confused I didn't understand what happened.
Just play without hotkey u'll be very surprised to manage to play it. The way i did was that i've retired the 12345678 buttons to have at least 9 and 0 for scans / obs / ovi. Playing like that won't give you a better micro but at least ur macro will be pretty decent. Also it didn't mention that he wasn't playing without f2 f3 f4 keys which are very important for me. Oh well just give it a try.
no i dont think its so useful to use f keys but i maybe try use more and more hotkeys.. like i started to use 1 at probe to scout and 1 scann and 1 at flyarmy (corsair,mutta) for a while ago and i think its good. but cant do all this hotkeys take so mutch time to do it.
Also I took a month off of using hotkeys ,cause I thought I was just making to many useless actions, and in that time, with pure 0 Hotkeys, at the end I got up to 180 apm with just pure accurate moves, then I started using hotkeys in conjuction and now am at 250 or so usually a little below, with around 20%(Each) of move hotkey and select actions.
Gurram is all art, FOR SURE TOP 5 TOSS IN EUROPE ! haha i'd say even top 3, and ZpuX, he belongs to iG. and will always belong to iG. because he's too cool for any other team GurramXor <3 btw Gurram/KaaZ are easily top 2 SWE in my opinion, they are VERY underrated, talking about gurram, If I had 2000000 minerals, I would've blindly put em all in the gosubet, but I only had like 100 still I got a pretty good amount, and I was 100% sure he'd win, not for him being in my team or anything like that... but I know how good of a player he is, and of course trek being inactive and such, just made me 100% (dont get me wrong, even if trek WAS active, I would've bet in gurram)
hehe whats the big deal with not using hotkeys? i dont recon i use too many hotkeys myself unless i have a speed shuttle or muttas or something like that, stinger doesnt use hotkeys eiter afaik, maybe in tvz ... zvt only... but then u have to :<
anywayz... good gamz0r ! it was indeed just a for fun koth that ive been playing for a looooooooong long time like was koth for 4 seaons maybe then i retired and then i grabbed it again for like 4 rounds so i finally lost it now which means i can lay most bw things aside too ... it has been nice but i cant say i feel an urge to play or practise for anything anymore.
Gurram is defniatly a good player and im glad that i lost to him and not some other random player :p If i would have been top of my game then maybe i would i have or maybe i would have lost too, who knows :p
i had imba high apm tho...like 270 apm in a 10 min game :D i never have that high :<
"Now fine, the games weren't great, and they didn't mean anything since it was only a showmatch, and Trek is addicted to WoW"
That's totaly bullshit, what is important games then, is tournament games all that matters? (Offline) Trek lost this SHOWmatch and thats the way it is, Gurram won with a clear record of 4 to 1, which pretty clearly shows who played better.
If you dont like to face the facts, atleast you could leave them out of the topic, and yes I concider the whole post of the poster as the whole topic, not only the so called 'main subject' as many of you people seems to think is most important.
Gurram pretty much owned the games and I'd say atm Gurram is better player than TreK. I dont see any reason you taking away the glory of the winning from Gurram. S H O W M A T C H 4 - 1 G _ G ? :/
wow cant believe so many posts its 2:30 here, just finished reading, well gurramxor rules Gg Trek, Daaman, u'd be #3 Swe if u want to know my opinion :D! but that's mainly cuz Mirre's always saying ur so amazing and such, SWE is my favorite national team after Perú of course not that I think its the best, cuz then I would HAVE to say china/germany/poland/russia but I like to see SWE winning and surprising cuz I find it really nice, besides poland I cant think of a nation with such a nice 'B' team, there's so much competition in SWE... BUT!... GURRAM AND KAAZLE PWN IT! <3 hahaha
On August 22 2005 00:29 ArCNeON(TE) wrote: "Now fine, the games weren't great, and they didn't mean anything since it was only a showmatch, and Trek is addicted to WoW"
That's totaly bullshit, what is important games then, is tournament games all that matters? (Offline) Trek lost this SHOWmatch and thats the way it is, Gurram won with a clear record of 4 to 1, which pretty clearly shows who played better.
If you dont like to face the facts, atleast you could leave them out of the topic, and yes I concider the whole post of the poster as the whole topic, not only the so called 'main subject' as many of you people seems to think is most important.
Gurram pretty much owned the games and I'd say atm Gurram is better player than TreK. I dont see any reason you taking away the glory of the winning from Gurram. S H O W M A T C H 4 - 1 G _ G ? :/
Good one einstein, who said he didnt play better ? who said he wasnt better ? why state obvious facts like its some kind of revolution.
if u dont think activity > inactivity then u should get a clue ... no ? dont even know how many times ive touched bw this year.
Maybe u should take a look at yourself clawson and think why nobody wanted u in pG, or maybe u can tell yourself that u "left"
Nice way of turning this neutral koth thread into a flamethread, doubt gurram even wanted u to speak since i know him from quite a while back and irl.
If u havent got anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.
I too think clawsons response was a bit overkill cuz the main poster really said that he was impressed by gurrams play and he enver said that he thinks trek is better or something. However, clawson did certainly not attack you in anyway and so your response is pretty much an overkill also ^^.
If you re-read both posts you'd see that he overreacted regarding some ppl claiming it wasn't serious or that it "doesnt count" and that you vastly overreacted to his post with statements like: "Maybe u should take a look at yourself clawson and think why nobody wanted u in pG, or maybe u can tell yourself that u "left"" just taken out of the air-_-?
Now, if you have some sort of feud going on mby I shouldn't even try to get involved, but jesus, take a good look on your post again and read mine and try to get a little perspective on them xD
EPT
! But, other than that I dunno o_o There's really not as many great protoss players as there once was even in europe so yeah. Top 5 sounds acceptable 
still I got a pretty good amount, and I was 100% sure he'd win, not for him being in my team or anything like that... but I know how good of a player he is, and of course trek being inactive and such, just made me 100% (dont get me wrong, even if trek WAS active, I would've bet in gurram)
after Perú of course not that I think its the best, cuz then I would HAVE to say china/germany/poland/russia but I like to see SWE winning and surprising cuz I find it really nice, besides poland I cant think of a nation with such a nice 'B' team, there's so much competition in SWE... BUT!... GURRAM AND KAAZLE PWN IT! <3 hahaha 
