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On January 28 2012 05:53 taitanik wrote:
theres no such thing like easy game theres only easy opponent , the game is as hard as opponent makes it to be.
there are easy games say a game tic tac toe a really smart thinkinh person may not do terribly better than say an average person
the same way in that go is more sophisticated than five in a row
I'm not saying sc2 is easy but that in some circumstances the game itself does limit the skills involved
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On January 28 2012 02:21 Ver wrote:
Playing sc2 a lot can help give appreciation to certain aspects of bw yes. For example, because sc2 is a much more shallow game both mechnically and strategically you have to focus on getting a very few specific aspects right, most notably engagements. In BW tvp there were so many things going on that it was easy to prioritize macro/harass/mining and neglect other things like spacing out siege tanks. Proper placement was important yes, but it was just one of many factors whereas in sc2 it becomes one of very few factors. Someone like myself neglected bw tvp tank placement in favor of other areas, simply because non-S class progamers can't focus on them all, but playing sc2 did help me understand that area better.
Most of the points though are either are inaccurate or just don't make sense. sc2 having no defenders advantage doesn't make the early game more tense or make you approach it differently, it just means you lose more frequently to blind build order luck that's mostly out of your control, in part because you can't scout enough. That isn't a draw to sc2, it's a way to make people (even sc2 pros) sick of it lol. This is why a lot of pros open terrible builds by any BW-measure (think reactor hellion cc tvz or making triple bunker turret tvp) just so they can rule out a lot of dangerous coinflips.
The last point on sc2 being a new game might apply a little bit to bw progamers, but frankly foreign bw players/fans have such a poor understanding that it really doesn't matter. A lot of bw pros get simple decisions wrong at many points during the game, which is why players like Flash who consistently make good decisions are so good and rare. Basically sc2 has such a lower strategic depth that even though it's 'less known,' the very best sc2 kor players are already hitting closer to that ceiling than most bw progamers. Copying someone like MMA or MVP is not only a lot easier than copying Flash beyond the 9th minute, but it also will pay similar dividends. Then you factor in that it's much easier to understand/follow sc2, so despite bw being much more developed, foreign players have less to figure out in sc2 on their own than in bw sadly. I don't think I explained this very well sorry but basically sc2 being less developed is a myth in a lot of ways. However, it is possible in sc2 for a mediocre foreigner to make a somewhat valid strategic contribution, whereas in bw the strategic complexity is so huge that you need to be a good progamer to simply understand a lot of things, let alone find new solutions.
So much awesome in this post, i had to quote it.
Also Ctrl+C Ctrl+V a point that's mentioned 10000 times. About all of us have tried out SC2, and we are still here. So the OP's purpose ("Every1 should try playing some SC2") is pretty pointless.
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Well, I played the sc2 beta from day one and then played it for about a good amount for almost a year after that around to december. Now from december 2010 to december 2011, I probably played less than 100 ladder games and I'll admit to having what is referred to as "ladder anxiety". Now in december I started to play bw on the fish server and I've been playing a good amount since. What I've come to the conclusion is that all "ladder anxiety" is, is a game you find boring and since I have no pro aspirations I'm not going to bother playing a game I don't enjoy playing.
Is it because bw is harder? meh, doesn't matter, I don't like to play the game and that's enough for me. I still follow the sc2 scene some, but I don't see myself playing it in the future really. I'll give it another shot when the expansion comes out but even looking at the expansion optimistically I'd be surprised if it was enough to truly interest me in the game.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
oh yes, about sc2 concentrating mostly on specific aspects... well, that has its point, I have to admit.
SC2 requires less attention spread, so you can concentrate on something and master it to some extent..
when you think you're ready to spread attention more, you can go and play sc:bw
but wtf, still don't want. maybe its because they're marketing bombing it and still trying to make BW scene cease to exist? Ok it's marketing I know, but I can never put up with it, I just want better games to live forever.  Dreams matter sometimes y'know.
p.s.: personally I'd second the wish to close this thread.... its mods' business though, so that was only an expression of a feeling, nothing more.
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So much distaste for sc2 here. Both sc2, and sc:bw are great games.
If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you. It's fine if you don't like it. But none of you are too good for the game.
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On January 28 2012 07:35 Epoch wrote:
So much distaste for sc2 here. Both sc2, and sc:bw are great games.
If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you. None of you are too good for the game.
This thread has so many good quotes for the Flash meme really.
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Some people just carry way too much hate (read: butthurt, for inexplicable reasons).
Both are absolutely amazing games, and I watch and play both of them. I don't know about you guys, but I'll continue enjoying both of them as long as I possibly can.
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I have to agree with the relaxing part. I'd say that's the biggest difference between the two for me. In BW, I feel like it's more about following through with my strategy and playing mechanically well. In SC2, I feel like I'm always in a battle for my life and that if I'm not being extra cautious, I could die at any moment. Kind of like a constant sense of impending doom and dread.
During the late game, it does kind of change, though. Both are pretty relaxing in late game (in the sense that you aren't in danger of suddenly dying. Obviously, I don't mean your fingers will be doing any relaxing late game :p).
You can play Terran against a computer for free with the starter pack or whatever they called the sc2 demo. If your computer can handle, I think it'd be an interesting experience for people to try out.
I'm not saying this makes one "better" than the other. It's just something I've also noted. I love both games .
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First off, I'm only plat sc2, and haven't played a "competitive" game in BW yet (I have ICCUP installed, but haven't found the time). This is the first proleague season I'm watching... I'd like the credit the non-jerk bw players who had so many good things to say about bw, the skill requirement, etc. They made me curious.
I understand the sentiment about new games being worse than the old ones. I started out playing FPS, and let's just say that the casual COD and Halo games now are much worse and "easier" than their predecessors. Couldn't talk about CSS vs 1.6, I got into games at the tail end of 2007, irc. a lot later than most people here, I'm assuming (I'm 19). I have the same feeling on several games. But I hope that eventually, the developers will be able to find out what made one game a success and another a failure, and learn from it.
This can apply to sc. if you say that sc2 is "worse" than bw, I am willing to believe you. I know sc2 is easier, even playing bw vs AI can tell me that.
But at the same time, I would ask that everyone stops trashing the other game and wait for Blizzard to (hopefully) improve the game as it expands. 1998 vs 2010 is a long time, and technology has come so far... they seem to have put every cool thing that they could do into the game. Now that it's there, they can figure it out. Right now, I don't doubt that bw is the "better" game, but time and learning can change that. I don't care if bw players keep playing bw, I don't care if they hate sc2. But I ask that they don't write it off as a whole, until the expansions (where the big changes happen) come out.
There is more I want to say (and better ways to say what I did), but I'm in a hurry. Thanks for reading, and play what you have playing. Instead of coming to TL and hating on one game or another, spend that time playing the game you love.
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On January 28 2012 04:11 _Quasar_ wrote:Why? It's not a trolling, but I seriously don't understand why. You can get some experience and new insight in BW if you do just anything. For example if you play chess. You can suddenly have a new idea. And about build-orders and position. I always had the manner of thinking myself and experimentation, and figuring out WHY those builds are used and those tactical tricks are used. And whole reps.ru forum is all about this too. It's just normal not to be conservative.
I think the why should be fairly obvious.
Unfortunately we here in the BW community do alot of shitting on SC2. Much of it is based on misinformation and lack of experience with the game.
If people took the time to ladder up into masters with a couple hundred games, THEN they can talk about what they like or dislike about SC2. They are able to qualify it with actual experiences of their own and support whatever assertions they make.
Let's face it though, I still see a ton of "ez game, no skill" or "hurp derp, colossi, 1a, gg" type stuff. That's blatantly untrue. As untrue as the silly claims that BW has broken AI or it's all about who clicks the fastest.
We are the smaller, more close-knit community and it really disappointing to me the amount of senseless SC2 bashing that happens. As I see it this community is the smaller, more close knit (and awesome) community. We should be the ones stepping it up, not responding angrily towards SC2 fan misinformation, trollbailt, or jubilation.
TL is great place, with great people, and it really saddens and pisses me off to see this stupid SC2 v BW bullshit and related trolling/hate going on almost 2 years later. Both communities could benefit so much from each other if people would put anyway these ridiculous and unfounded grudges between them.
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I really can't say BW is too relaxing, I think SC2 is pretty much relaxing since MBS, CTRL 1 army, etc etc tends to make it easy.
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On January 28 2012 08:22 FraCuS wrote:
I really can't say BW is too relaxing, I think SC2 is pretty much relaxing since MBS, CTRL 1 army, etc etc tends to make it easy.
Although I have never found BW to be relaxing I can relate to his point somewhat with SC2. Battles happen fast, and with things like concussive making retreating difficult alot of times you only get on shot at it. Once you realize there is a threat of being attacked you have to be constantly alert and immediately ready to go because being away at the wrong couple seconds can result in a quick, decisive loss for you. In this sense SC2 is tense because you can never let your focus slip when these sorts of threats exist. In BW I've never really felt like I had to be super rushed to react, if it's PvP and he starts moving in with his goons/reaver while I am sending a worker to mine, its not the end of the world. I can back up slightly, reposition, and be ready to go.
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On January 28 2012 07:35 Epoch wrote:
So much distaste for sc2 here. Both sc2, and sc:bw are great games.
If sc2 is good enough for fucking Nada, Julyzerg, and Slayersboxer then it's good enough for you. It's fine if you don't like it. But none of you are too good for the game.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not good enough to "solve" sc2 so there will always be the argument that if I can't solve a game, why does it matter how hard it is? While this is true, when I play sc2 I feel I win and lose for arbitrary reasons the majority of the time due to how comparably easy it is rather than in bw which is very clear why I win and lose games due to how hard it is. I personally find this to be very very frustrating, even if I'm not good enough to solve sc2.
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wow people, i cant really understand from where this relaxing thing comes from. have you ever tried to TVT? is stressing as fuck and i love it.
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"Recently, someone posted a cool full HD sized BW screenshot of the entire map with engagements all over"
I would like to see this picture, maybe even for a wallpaper! could i be a bug and ask someone to link this or something? :/
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On January 28 2012 04:39 LEGAsee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 02:10 Percutio wrote:On January 28 2012 02:03 KenNage wrote:On January 28 2012 01:40 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 28 2012 01:30 KenNage wrote:On January 28 2012 01:23 Mazaire wrote:
As someone who is not form BW, just reading this thread, I felt it could have been better implemented. Thing is, Sc2 is a game that is very much still in its infancy. Unlike brood war which is 10 (11?) years old now, it hasn't had the time to be balanced, worked out and made more interesting to an extent. The game is still waiting two more expansions so who knows what will happen between now and then. So i feel that though the generally BW community should give it a chance, even though objectively BW may be a whole lot more fun to play.
One of the threads that makes me violently ill is the elephant in the room thread. That thread was written off the back of a couple of months of REALLY bad pro performance/games and basically is a thread that bashes SC2 and its players. But by comparison BW players were barely figuring out how to use hotkeys and work out mechanics. Give SC2 another 8 years and 2 expansions and i get the feeling that the feel of the game will be more worked out as well, which is the general feel i am getting from the majority of posters.
Tldr: The Op was poorly implemented because SC2 is no where mature as BW yet. Time will tell.
another give it 10 more years to be a good game? i wonder how many times ive read this, the sad thing is that ppl dont realize that this statement is wrong. personally I do feel like we should give it time because we can't really judge and unfinished product,but at the same time I feel that its not going to make that much of a difference because the way the design of the game is going. i agree with give it time but, i cant help but feel weird about this kind of posts, i mean come on the guy doesnt even know when bw was released, if u gonna post in the bw forum at least get your facts right if u gonna give a statement like this, (it may sound rude but i dont know to put it different) and most sc2 ppl assume that bw has been patched countless times thought his 13 years, when in fact the last balance patch was in 2001-05-18, the following were just bug fixes and alike. also at this point, i mean in terms of release date wise, we didnt even had the replay function at this point ! which also came with the 1.08 Patch in 2001-05-18, this should be kind of sticky thing ahah  , i mean if they gonna say "bw had 10+ years to balance ! give sc2 time!" they are mixing this up, because race balance and game development through years of playing are different things But at the same time vanilla SC had hilariously bad balance and play and Brood War went on to change that. I'm pretty sure Blizzard already had the expansion done before the original game was released, just like with diablo 2 and its expansion so it's not like they unfucked the game with anything besides...3? balance patches. The expansions for sc2 are being tacked onto an already finished product that had to be semi balanced in its form so it could stand on its own for the 2+ years until the next expansion. How many Balance patches did sc2 have already, anyway? it's got to be like 100 -.- .(yes I included beta, where the players did blizzards job for them).
So...Are you arguing against Sc2 or for Sc2? Your post made me chuckle. I'm pretty sure it takes more effort to patch a game 100 times rather than 3 times. Sounds like they are putting more effort into Sc2 then they have with any other game.
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On January 28 2012 08:56 FlyingToilet wrote:
"Recently, someone posted a cool full HD sized BW screenshot of the entire map with engagements all over"
I would like to see this picture, maybe even for a wallpaper! could i be a bug and ask someone to link this or something? :/
Here you go:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=304902
Since you asked for wallpapers, I will also include my comment in the blog, which may or may not be helpful to you.
On January 21 2012 17:54 writer22816 wrote:For those who want to put this as their desktop background, the OP included 4 images to begin with. I created 9 more for a total of 13, each 1366x768, and together which cover pretty much the entire map. Let me know what you think as I am not exactly a photographer. In china virtually every file sharing site has been blocked by now so I am uploading this to 115. http://115.com/file/aquim0y7#FS_wallpapers.rarTo download, click on the button on the far right (电信下载), clear colored. edit: I just realized BW6.jpg is not needed as it is basically the same as BW1.jpg, please delete it T_T. The first 4 images are the OP's.
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I've played Starcraft since it came out. While it's still my favourite game of all time, I also like Starcraft 2. What's the big deal?
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On January 28 2012 02:21 Ver wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Playing sc2 a lot can help give appreciation to certain aspects of bw yes. For example, because sc2 is a much more shallow game both mechnically and strategically you have to focus on getting a very few specific aspects right, most notably engagements. In BW tvp there were so many things going on that it was easy to prioritize macro/harass/mining and neglect other things like spacing out siege tanks. Proper placement was important yes, but it was just one of many factors whereas in sc2 it becomes one of very few factors. Someone like myself neglected bw tvp tank placement in favor of other areas, simply because non-S class progamers can't focus on them all, but playing sc2 did help me understand that area better.
Most of the points though are either are inaccurate or just don't make sense. sc2 having no defenders advantage doesn't make the early game more tense or make you approach it differently, it just means you lose more frequently to blind build order luck that's mostly out of your control, in part because you can't scout enough. That isn't a draw to sc2, it's a way to make people (even sc2 pros) sick of it lol. This is why a lot of pros open terrible builds by any BW-measure (think reactor hellion cc tvz or making triple bunker turret tvp) just so they can rule out a lot of dangerous coinflips.
The last point on sc2 being a new game might apply a little bit to bw progamers, but frankly foreign bw players/fans have such a poor understanding that it really doesn't matter. A lot of bw pros get simple decisions wrong at many points during the game, which is why players like Flash who consistently make good decisions are so good and rare. Basically sc2 has such a lower strategic depth that even though it's 'less known,' the very best sc2 kor players are already hitting closer to that ceiling than most bw progamers. Copying someone like MMA or MVP is not only a lot easier than copying Flash beyond the 9th minute, but it also will pay similar dividends. Then you factor in that it's much easier to understand/follow sc2, so despite bw being much more developed, foreign players have less to figure out in sc2 on their own than in bw sadly. I don't think I explained this very well sorry but basically sc2 being less developed is a myth in a lot of ways. However, it is possible in sc2 for a mediocre foreigner to make a somewhat valid strategic contribution, whereas in bw the strategic complexity is so huge that you need to be a good progamer to simply understand a lot of things, let alone find new solutions.
This is exactly how I feel too.
When I first started out playing BW, copying a progamer build was not possible because of the high level of skill needed just to pull it off. Even once I got a little better and could pull off some builds, learning others was still pretty much impossible. Try learning 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra vs protoss your first time trying it. Or corsair reaver vs zerg.
When I started playing SC2 however, I can at least follow any pro build very closely right away. Game sense/decision making is obviously worse, but the units are there at the times they should be.
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On January 28 2012 01:47 blubbdavid wrote:
In all honesty, BW and SC2 should only be compared after it's last expansion has come out, which probably will be in 10 years. But then, I will compare mercilessly.
Btw, altough the time distance between BW and SC2 is 10 years, SC2 has evolved much faster, therefore giving it "10 years time" is not a correct statement.
Thats a totally unfair comparison. BW paved the road that SC2 is driving on.
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EPT
