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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On August 16 2005 19:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Really, when great ideas involving clever mineral placement emerged, it was really cool and invited a new dimension of strategy to maps, but they are done to death. Even recycling those ideas for another map is bad enough, let alone tens of maps.
I have a solution to overused ideas: map patents, the next best thing after software patents! 
Title: CAN5553072: Abolishable Unit Impediment
Country: CA Canada
Inventor: Bill307
Abstract:
A construct through which terrestrial motion is prohibited. The hindrance may be disassembled by the executor through means of resource acquisition, thereby facilitating the passage of mobile elements restricted to terra firma.
What patent office wouldn't grant a patent for such a novel and intricate idea??
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United States12242 Posts
Hahahahah. Nice connection, that was great.
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Blizzard invented mineral walls as seen in (2)Crystallis one of the greatest maps of all time
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On August 16 2005 20:36 racebannon wrote:
Blizzard invented mineral walls as seen in (2)Crystallis one of the greatest maps of all time
No, they invented it in Warcraft with trees  .
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On August 16 2005 12:24 Teroru wrote:
And if you make a good map (i'm talking good in the eye of the map maker, good in the eye of the average player, and good in the eye of the high tiered player) it will be recognized as such. And you will be respected all the more for it.
Tropicanal/Ecuadorsal ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=30264 ) could become a perfect example of this. I'm assuming trcc likes it. The average person seems to like it. I like it. Mora likes it. Drone likes it. Many other people will probably like it too once they see it. And I think that everyone who sees it and likes it will regard trcc higher for his achievement  .
What's more, if it's used in the Blizzcon tournament, that pretty much guarantees trcc will earn recognition from thousands of players for his work. He goes from "who?" to "I know that guy!" with a single, well-made map. From there, if he stays dedicated there's no telling what might happen. If he's also very proactive and motivated then he might even be able to get his maps into OGN, MBCGame, or WCG. That's (a part of) how you get ahead in the world: be self-confident and proactive: take the initiative with confidence rather than waiting for other people to find you once you're good enough (it can happen, but don't count on it). So probably the next step would be to ask people -- ask everyone -- how to get your maps on mapdori.com . Actually, I suppose if I wanted to I could do that myself. Hmm... well anyway, as this shows, you don't have to "know the right people" or be famous to become a known and successful SC mapmaker. With the right attitude toward mapmaking and a good personality (as opposed to certain people who like to redefine the meaning of the word "nat" to suit their cause ), it's more than possible.
By the way, I notice that trcc is Canadian too...
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indeed, after looking at several of trcc's maps, it has occured to me that i should really step up and collect his adress. As much as i encourage new talent, he's really making too good of an impression much too fast. Nothing a mail bomb can't fix though.
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On August 16 2005 19:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I feel much better after reading this thread because as far as I know, my map didn't violate any of Mora's peeves =]
I totally agree with you regarding mineral walls. After Detonation, EVERYONE started using them. In fact, even when Coulee was created, I looked at the map and thought "oh great, mineral walls again" even though it was only like the second map to ever use mineral walls. It was the same with the anti-Terran island expansions - the ones with the single 8-mineral patches that are placed where the Command Center would ordinarily land, so Terrans can't float there. After Namja Iyagi, EVERYONE started using this idea (Coulee, again, incidentally). Really, when great ideas involving clever mineral placement emerged, it was really cool and invited a new dimension of strategy to maps, but they are done to death. Even recycling those ideas for another map is bad enough, let alone tens of maps.
To be honest, when i made Coulee, i had honestly thought i had invented the mineral wall. I think that was partially because i used to to truly complete a wall, and not to just screw with unit pathing. Not only that, but it was a vital role in the mechanics of the map, not just 'a nice feature to throw in'.
As for the anti-commandcenter-lift mineral patches, i think those are sometimes neccassery. I don't think that they should be placed at every expansion, but if it comes down to completely removing an expansion on ur map because it favours terran, or simply adding a mineral patch, i'd prefer the mineral patch. On coulee, because the expansion was so easily cc-liftable, i felt it neccessary to add the patch. I also made it so that the CC could not land anywhere even close to the expansion due to unlandable terrain. I also made it that much harder by making the minerals 24 on the patch, instead of just 8, so that if a terran pushed out an scv through the mineral wall, that he'd have to do it an additional 2 times in order to mine away the patch.
However, did you still like Coulee? Or did it really set you off?
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United States12242 Posts
On August 17 2005 00:19 Teroru wrote:However, did you still like Coulee? Or did it really set you off?
I think when I first saw it, I had some mixed reactions. I rolled my eyes at the mineral wall and the anti-CC patches, but I thought it was interesting... how it was an island map, but it wasn't an island map, all at the same time. I had a "wait and see" attitude toward it. Everything theorycraft said that it would produce some really interesting matches, unfortunately that was only the case for a few players. The matches where more traditional and less inventive players participated seemed to drag on because the center made it difficult to gain ground. It's not my favorite map, but it's far from my least favorite.
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On August 17 2005 00:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2005 00:19 Teroru wrote:However, did you still like Coulee? Or did it really set you off? I think when I first saw it, I had some mixed reactions. I rolled my eyes at the mineral wall and the anti-CC patches, but I thought it was interesting... how it was an island map, but it wasn't an island map, all at the same time. I had a "wait and see" attitude toward it. Everything theorycraft said that it would produce some really interesting matches, unfortunately that was only the case for a few players. The matches where more traditional and less inventive players participated seemed to drag on because the center made it difficult to gain ground. It's not my favorite map, but it's far from my least favorite.
The reason behind this is that the map lacks in neutral expansions so races that requiers less expos dsnt need to attack, ie that zelotito pvz and can make games quite gay.
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On August 16 2005 13:40 SexWithTeroru wrote:
I agree with Bill and Mora 200%.
Starparty, you're an artist. That's fine, but that doesn't mean you make fun/balanced maps, it means you make pretty maps. Whenever someone criticizes your maps, you jump out at them(even in here when you weren't directly mentioned). Looking at your maps, its clear that you ignored balance. I've seen someone else make this comment (not here), and you lashed out at them, saying that they were just jealous of you. No, dude.
You should listen to Bill and Mora; BW needs them. They are the best foreign map makers, and they both actually think about what they make.
edit: Every RTS ever made has its money maps; good players simply avoid them, and bringing them into a map discussion about good maps is off topic.
I have never ever jumped on anyone who actually commented constructivly on my map. For those who simply says it sucks without any given reasons at all, I say, in different versions: "make a better one yourself". No one ever replied with a creation of their own.
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more likely refering to me, but that's kinda funny since he never tried any of my maps.
People look at a picture. If the picture is too good looking, they get too jealous and excuses that reaction with that the map -MUST SUCK- since it looks so amazingly good (and i can't design a map like that). It is so sad. In Sweden that is called "jantelagen", basically meaning "You're not better than anyone else, Don't fool yourself that you are something". In smaller communities and villages around here this is widely spreaden.
This is one of many examples.
I've also seen you say that it is the responsibility of everyone else to prove that a map is imbalanced, not the responsibility of the map maker to prove a map is balanced.
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ok. great job in taking something out of context.
here is the entire post (which you suitingly cutted a bit)
Show nested quote +On July 29 2005 06:18 Passion wrote:ugly maps>>>pretty ones. stop caring about what it looks like, start thinking about how it plays  more likely refering to me, but that's kinda funny since he never tried any of my maps. People look at a picture. If the picture is too good looking, they get too jealous and excuses that reaction with that the map -MUST SUCK- since it looks so amazingly good (and i can't design a map like that). It is so sad. In Sweden that is called "jantelagen", basically meaning "You're not better than anyone else, Don't fool yourself that you are something". In smaller communities and villages around here this is widely spreaden.
And exactly HOW did this NOT fit into my post above?
I've also seen you say that it is the responsibility of everyone else to prove that a map is imbalanced, not the responsibility of the map maker to prove a map is balanced.
If "everyone else" find a map imbalanced by shouting at a jpeg, then THEY should prove that to the creator, he shouldn't have to defend something he put time into, whilst "they" took a quick glimpse at it.
If I perform a crime I am not considered guilty until someone else proves that I am. Atleast in my country. That's the way of life.
****************************************
here is what your arguments mainly are refering to:
Taken from the thread concerning the so-far very succesful map (2)Space pirates by (guess who?) Starparty. here is a picture if it gives any more clarity.
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Space%20Pirates(n).jpg)
Show nested quote +On June 27 2005 13:18 Djin)Xuul( wrote:
decorating a map is nice but not essential... many mapmakers think if their maps look nice at the jpg it must be a good map, but thats crap!
what is the mineralconcept ?
what is with racebalancing ?
those are the important questons and i cant see that on most of the maps... not on space pirates, not on cohesion and not on soora kingdom which has a more than an ugly racebalancing :/
this map here..
what did u thought bout placing those mineral only expansions in the middle ? they rly make no sense
who is gonna hold the expansion at the top of the middle since it is more than easy to harrass ?
at which place at the map shall zerg or protoss units be able to flank terran troops ?
though u might have spent a lot of time in the decoration u failed in making a good concept (i decorated this one in 20minutes thank you very much) Show nested quote +plz dont take those critics too personally, im just saying what im thinking about  im not angry with you if thats what you think although these are offensive comments based on looking at the jpg rather that actually playing the map. play it. post a rep. show me that the center expansions are useless, and not tiebreakers and reasons to actually control the center. Show me that the top expansion really is unprotectable, and not a reason to play it large and controll more of the ground. show me that the map is tight, and not satisfyingliy sized for all races since there are many different routes to travel, but still an obvious route between the bases making it preferable. Then i will thake your thoughts into serious consideration.Show nested quote +many mapmakers think if their maps look nice at the jpg it must be a good map, but thats crap! Are you serious? Im sorry if the map itches in your eyes when you look at it, but if you simply ask we will definitely help you doing the same to your maps, understanding it as they weren't as beautiful already..? I dont want to seem like an ashole, i think you are a good mapmaker and your maps are great. If my reply here seems too offensive, dont take it personally. But your post called for it...
Did he prove me wrong in those points? - NO.
Did he post a replay? - NO.
Did he even play the map??? - ONLY GOD KNOWS.
I will not argue this anymore since i clearly stated my point, and i've gone far off-topic enough.
Case Closed.
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First off, I didn't take your post out of context. The meaning of your post did not change at all due to me not copying and pasting the post you were quoting.
"Innocent until proven guilty" pertains only to law. There is really nothing else it should be applied to. Whenever talking about a creation, it is the responsibility of the creator to prove it is worthy; the burden does not lie with others. For example, if Bush decides to go to war, he better damn prove its worth; it isn't the responsibility of everyone else to prove it wrong.
It's funny that you quote that post of yours, because -- like I said -- it's frankly an in-your-face response to perfectly good questions. You seem to think that you're a God, that anything you do is assumed great and others must go to great lengths to prove it wrong (one amatuer replay won't prove anything except for retarded exploits like on Luna the Final or Paranoid Andriod, fyi).
There is a reason that Bill and Mora are held in high esteem; they are obsessive when dealing with racial and positional balance. Though I may be wrong, I highly doubt they simply come up with an idea out their ass and say, "This would be a great map, I'll make it, decorate it, and flame anyone who disagrees with me."
Yes, Bill and Mora could get away with more radical maps than other map makers, but that is because they have a reputation of making thoughtful, balanced maps. So while it's probably safe to assume that any given map Bill or Mora creates is balanced, the same can't be said of someone who says that critiques about his/her maps are made simply because the critic is jealous of his/her artistic ability.
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On August 17 2005 17:40 SexWithTeroru wrote:
First off, I didn't take your post out of context. The meaning of your post did not change at all because I didn't copy and paste the post you were quoting.
well perhaps you noticed that the quote actually were -in-my-post-. You can't draw a conclusion with only seeing half of the facts. Seeing as how you write your responses you seem to be alot smarter than that. That was a compliment, and please do take it as one.
"Innocent until proven guilty" pertains only to law. There is really nothing else it should be applied to. Whenever talking about a creation, it is the responsibility of the creator to prove it is worthy; the burden does not lie with others. For example, if Bush decides to go to war, he better damn prove its worth; it isn't the responsibility of everyone else to prove it wrong.
w h a t e v e r.
It's funny that you quote that post of yours, because -- like I said -- it's frankly an in-your-face response to perfectly good questions. You seem to think that you're a God, that anything you do is assumed great and others must go to great lengths to prove it wrong (one amatuer replay won't prove anything except for retarded exploits like on Luna the Final or Paranoid Andriod, fyi).
ehh... right...
"many mapmakers think if their maps look nice at the jpg it must be a good map, but thats crap!"
yeah... thats great. Guess he wasn't refering to me. 
There is a reason that Bill and Mora are held in high esteem; they are obsessive when dealing with racial and positional balance. Though I may be wrong, I highly doubt they simply come up with an idea out their ass and say, "This would be a great map, I'll make it, decorate it, and flame anyone who disagrees with me."
Yes, Bill and Mora could get away with more radical maps than other map makers, but that is because they have a reputation of making thoughtful, balanced maps. So while it's probably safe to assume that any given map Bill or Mora creates is balanced, the same can't be said of someone who says that critiques about his/her maps are made simply because the critic is jealous of his/her artistic ability.
where exactly did i disrespect Bill and Mora? My concerns have the entire time been around this article and the facts mora stated here - which i clearly disagreed with, whilst you insist in trying to frame me for endless reasons unknown. I KNOW Bill and mora makes great maps, but i also know that I do, and that many else in this community do. They don't need any rules, since what they do definitely is good as it is. And the problem with this article is not really its contents but the way it was written, which made me feel like a target, and also felt like it was directly aimed at other frequently posting mapmakers on this site which obviously made me defend me - and them. Mora stated several days ago that it was not his intention to make anyone feel stomped on and that the way he wrote was to promote some smiles here and there. I accepted that.
So what exactly is the point you're trying to fetch? its seems like its even more drastically fading away.
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You sorta ignored my post, but ok.
My point is that you are giving them too little credit, while giving yourself too much.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
If the mapmaker and supporters don't "prove" the map is balanced, and the nay-sayers don't "prove" it isn't, then the map's balance is simply undetermined.
And if someone needs a map to be "proven" balanced, then obviously it has to be proven balanced by the creator and/or supporters.
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Starparty, i think i understand the most of what you are saying, but something still confuses me. Could you explain to me what criteria a 'critique' needs, that isn't just 'an opinion' and could be 'constructive'? The points i made are very accurate points in map making. Maps are not just about art. They're about broodwar. If the map isn't creating beautiful gameplay, it's not a good map, regardless of how beautiful it is in any other way.
A good map has beauty, balance, and must create interesting gameplay. Falling short on any count means your map is doing just that, falling short. The guidelines i wrote are, for the most part, true. They can be broken while still maintaining good gameplay, but that is hard to accomplish and is why i have 'guided' to not do so.
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For god sake they are Bill and Mora! The two most succesfull mapmakers outside korea! Do i even have to say more What did i make? Nothing. Yet. But that doesn't mean that i should accept anyone flaming my creation(s) without motivating why.
"The map sux". Ok, thank you. I feel much more enlightened now.
I know i can give hefty responses, that's just me i guess (unfortunately?) but it has nothing to do with me praising myself to the skies. It has to do with people putting in unmotivated comments which doesnt contribute or atleast drive the conversation forth in anyway. OK, i chose a bad example of Xuuls posts, You should take a trip to broodwarmaps.net and see what he has posted on the many Starpary and Peatza creations and perhaps my jump on him would be just a little bit more justifyed (if you're interested, check the first submissions like Space Pirates or Soora Kingdom). I have stated the same facts in every map thread as soon as someone makes a post like this, Its not only my own. Sure people can think whatever they want, im glad they do, but they doesn't have to shout it out loud just for no reason without any suggestions for improvement. Try implement that in real life and one would be very popular...
This is common among the forumthreads and doesn't just apply to mapmaking threads. It's unfortunate that it all blurred together here, making quite a mess. Atleast it is a good argument.
Basicly we are probably on the same level in this. I began the argument because someone chose a bad combination of words to present something quite harmless, while You argue with me because I chose an even worse combination of words to argue with the first ones
Quite ironically actually... I will ofcourse apologize if you, on behalf of mora and bill, feel that i have disrespected them in anyway regarding their mapmaking skills. That was never my intention. However i will still not accept unmotivated flaming for creations I put time and effort into. Simply because someone always just HAS to say "it sux" by having a biased look on a jpg.
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I think that many critiques are justified. Imagine yourself in their situation:
You play Broodwar, you obviously like balanced maps, and you think it's lame when a victory or loss is caused by the map rather than the players. You see a map that was clearly painstakingly decorated, but, when the decoration is removed, isn't really that great of a map underneath. You make the comment, "You should really devote yourself to balance rather than looks", and the creator of the map gets very angry at you.
That's what it looks like from the other side
In fact, an excellent test of whether a map is really balanced is to simply remove all decoration when judging it. That way, one's judgement isn't clouded by how pretty/ugly a map is.
P.S. One thing that I haven't seen you do is put sprites in maps. That's good. Putting sprites in maps is really a kick in the face to the idea of gameplay over decoration (you're basically saying that added decoration is worth having valkyries become useless sooner, which is ridiculous after a moment's thought).
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perhaps. But it will take hella lot of trees to make the valks not fire correctly
I dont like how the sprites are placed. I want my doodads to be placed linear, like in staredit, on their respective square... it looks weird otherwise.
There is a good and a bad way of telling a map is bad. The bad way is the way we stated clearly through many posts. But what you mention above doesnt really fit into the description of those posting dumb comments. Those who play broodwar and actually gives a damn, they usually give some suggestions too instead of just complaining.
MY point was the fact that these are people that havn't or doesn not intend to play the actual map anyway and their comment is completely useless, often since noone else seems to think that way, and since maps are made for the masses (normally) perhaps the majority should rule.. i dunno..
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EPT
