|
On August 15 2005 13:53 Teroru wrote:
Verisimilitude is actually a pretty good map.
i want the stupid git to get hit by a bus for stealing my name. 'Verisimilitude' is patented by none other than myself. It is my favourite word and i have been saving it for a map that really suits the name. But he used it first. And the map does not suit the name whatsoever. And for some reason i think i've seen the map before, which means the little bugger knows me, and heard the word from me in the first place.
I think my wish may have been a little off-kilter.
I hope u get hit by a bus. Twice.
.
I feel hated T.T... for using a cool word for my map name -_- that actually has a cool meaning.
|
Ok, here is the deal. I have no personal issue with You, and therefore i will try to be as factual as possible although i believe this to be the most bullying post ive read in a long time. You make some good points, although some of the statements are not for you to decide, but to post an article like this and simply stomping on everyones creations since they don't exactly fit Your taste, that's not very nice. I am in no position right now to review any of Your maps for creativity and gameplay, I have only my own opinions which i'll keep to myself. And therefore i humbly ask of You -and the rest of this community- who has tested a permillage of the maps posted here to do the same unless there is actually some -useful- critique included.
|
Teroru is totaly right... once i critizised u with the same arguments Starparty, but u didnt want to listen... u just felt personally attacked :/
the most usermaps are really shitty and short excursions at staredit tell me: "playing that map is a waste of time"
several months ago we had a mapcontest at broodwar.de where i took part at the jury... many many maps were sent in and 90% of them were total crap
most mapmakers should rly read those suggestions of Teroru and take critics seriously
|
Teroru.. i think we dont make maps for you? Or do we?
I think map making is some kind of art and everyone has their own styles and ideas. You can't say what is wrong and what is right. "DONT MAKE FAST EXPOS PvZ ANYMORE IT'S USED!!!" If u really know how to make maps then send ur own map to blizz. And the last thing. It doesn't mean shit if u make ur map in 50 hours or in 5 hours. You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours.
Ofcourse good map needs lots of testing but u can pass that by thinking before you start to make ur map.
Im sorry if i have used same words as u before.
|
100% agree.
Mineral walls are a bitch!
|
On August 16 2005 07:16 RandomCat wrote:
100% agree.
Mineral walls are a bitch!
Some insight and depth =)
|
good points, but i think
1) u should say DONT ABUSE MIN WALLS, by forbiddening min walls cuz its an old idea u should forbidden every choke too. its has become kind of a standard element which just shouldnt be used too much.
2) balance is a relative issue, its related to variosity of discovered strategies and SKILL, above all. Unfortunatly i dont know any other maps than LT, LUNA, NOS which claimed to be nearly-perfect balanced in nearly-all skill-levels, and all those are old-old-old maps. I personally think that now after 7 years its impossible to create a revolutioning map which isnt imba, and so a mappool of a tournament should contain both standard-macro maps and new maps favouring each sides.
thx for the tips though
|
On August 16 2005 06:11 GrooVe wrote:
Teroru.. i think we dont make maps for you? Or do we?
I think map making is some kind of art and everyone has their own styles and ideas. You can't say what is wrong and what is right. "DONT MAKE FAST EXPOS PvZ ANYMORE IT'S USED!!!" If u really know how to make maps then send ur own map to blizz. And the last thing. It doesn't mean shit if u make ur map in 50 hours or in 5 hours. You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours.
Ofcourse good map needs lots of testing but u can pass that by thinking before you start to make ur map.
Im sorry if i have used same words as u before.
Watch what you say lol
|
On August 16 2005 08:28 Tfums wrote:
Watch what you say lol
I just make things clear.
|
On August 16 2005 02:06 Starparty wrote:
Ok, here is the deal. I have no personal issue with You, and therefore i will try to be as factual as possible although i believe this to be the most bullying post ive read in a long time. You make some good points, although some of the statements are not for you to decide, but to post an article like this and simply stomping on everyones creations since they don't exactly fit Your taste, that's not very nice. I am in no position right now to review any of Your maps for creativity and gameplay, I have only my own opinions which i'll keep to myself. And therefore i humbly ask of You -and the rest of this community- who has tested a permillage of the maps posted here to do the same unless there is actually some -useful- critique included.
First of all, the post was made half in jest. Please don't take it too seriously. Second of all, they are only guidelines, not criticisms or rules, and they aren't set in stone. I thought i made that fairly clear though where in each point i said 'there are exceptions to the rule'. You can disagree with me all you want, but when your (or someone elses map) doesn't win in a contest, and you've violated some of the afore mentioned guidelines, don't bother wondering why.
I'm not sure what exactly your goal is when you make a map. Every map i make and release i expect to be played hundreds of times by hundreds of different players. Every single map. I don't just sit down and throw all of my ideas into a map, and show it to the community, and let it die out. If that is someones intention, all the power to them, for violating most of the guidelines will result in exactly that. (Again, i feel that you might take my point too literally, so i will just make it absolutely fucking clear that broken guidelines can still exist in a good map. The more guidelines you break while managing to keep your map a quality one the better your map will be).
As for reviewing my maps, feel free to do so. Infact, i encourage you to do so. I have always encouraged the community to offer there critique, and can do so as harshly as they want. I put a great deal of thought, effort, and time into my maps. A negative critique can either be 1) accurate, and will help me improve my map or 2) be inaccurate, and prove my map to be all the better. More importantly, the highest tiered players outside of korea like my maps and consider them balanced. For every 1 player (at their level) who dislikes my map, there are 9 who love it. The exception would be Umbra Locus, as i went 'outside the box' and tried to incorporate some really new concepts to the map. They were embraced less so than my other maps.
When i invented the mineral wall, i didn't expect it to become a staple of map making. It was my hope, at that time, that people would see "oh! you can think up new ideas that will really add to the gameplay!" and would be inspired to do so themselves. Oops, my bad. As i said before, sometimes mineral walls really add to the map, but i have so far not seen a map utilize it do so. So far, every mineral wall is used to be 'quirky', and in my opinion, detracts from the gameplay. On Coulee, the mineral wall had the potential to change an island map to a land map. It added a drastic element to the map. Not only did it make for unique gameplay, but it also helped to balance an island map for zerg.
It's a shame that you do not consider my critique useful. Believe it or not, it was not my intention to be anything but helpful. I thought i could do it in a way that was fun to read, and would make people smile at the same time. It saddens me that you took it for 'bullying'.
|
u used mins wall even before the Detonation series? +_+;;
|
On August 16 2005 06:11 GrooVe wrote:
Teroru.. i think we dont make maps for you? Or do we?
I think map making is some kind of art and everyone has their own styles and ideas. You can't say what is wrong and what is right. "DONT MAKE FAST EXPOS PvZ ANYMORE IT'S USED!!!" If u really know how to make maps then send ur own map to blizz. And the last thing. It doesn't mean shit if u make ur map in 50 hours or in 5 hours. You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours.
Ofcourse good map needs lots of testing but u can pass that by thinking before you start to make ur map.
Im sorry if i have used same words as u before.
Hello? Mora and Bill307 were on blizzard's map staff for the Mystery map invitational. Mora won the WGT map contest. You have no room to challenge him by saying "if you really know how to make maps send one in"
|
On August 16 2005 06:11 GrooVe wrote:
Teroru.. i think we dont make maps for you? Or do we?
I think map making is some kind of art and everyone has their own styles and ideas. You can't say what is wrong and what is right. "DONT MAKE FAST EXPOS PvZ ANYMORE IT'S USED!!!" If u really know how to make maps then send ur own map to blizz. And the last thing. It doesn't mean shit if u make ur map in 50 hours or in 5 hours. You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours.
Ofcourse good map needs lots of testing but u can pass that by thinking before you start to make ur map.
Im sorry if i have used same words as u before.
You are absolutely correct. I cannot tell any map maker out there what is or is not right and wrong. I can, however, tell them what will and will not be successful in the community at large. Both as an experienced map maker, and a relatively high skilled player.
If u really know how to make maps then send ur own map to blizz
I do feel i know how to make maps. And i have done 3 projects for blizzard thus far, so apparently they think so too.
I did not suggest that anyone spend any amount of time on a map, nor will i now. You can spend as much or as little time on ur maps as you want. I couldn't care any less. That was not a guideline, and i have no desire to make it one.
|
On August 16 2005 08:58 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote:
u used mins wall even before the Detonation series? +_+;;
Hmm, no, i think the Detonation series came out before my map.
|
On August 16 2005 07:34 NeVeRDiEDrOnE wrote:
good points, but i think
1) u should say DONT ABUSE MIN WALLS, by forbiddening min walls cuz its an old idea u should forbidden every choke too. its has become kind of a standard element which just shouldnt be used too much.
2) balance is a relative issue, its related to variosity of discovered strategies and SKILL, above all. Unfortunatly i dont know any other maps than LT, LUNA, NOS which claimed to be nearly-perfect balanced in nearly-all skill-levels, and all those are old-old-old maps. I personally think that now after 7 years its impossible to create a revolutioning map which isnt imba, and so a mappool of a tournament should contain both standard-macro maps and new maps favouring each sides.
thx for the tips though
I did not forbid mineral walls. I said 'stop using them' because every map i have seen so far has not used them well. I mentioned in my first point in my first post that there very well might be another 'perfect moment' for a mineral wall. Feel free to find that moment. It's sort of like a fast expansion protoss being countered by a 4hatch hydra rush. There is a very brief moment where the zerg can come in and kill the protoss 5 seconds before his storm is finished researching. But if you happen to be wrong, and the protoss does have storm, you have missed your moment and the game is over. Unfortunately for map makers, 4hatch hydra rushers have a far higher success rate than map makers do with their mineral walls, and hence my 1st point and guideline.
While you may think it impossible to create a well balanced map after such a long time, i think you are very much wrong. Every map maker should be aimed at balancing the map as best they can, and i believe that with some time, thought, and testing, relative balance (if not perfect balance) can be achieved.
|
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On August 16 2005 06:11 GrooVe wrote:
You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours.
You can also win the lottery with just 1 ticket.
Actually 5 hours is plausible for the initial design and first draft stages (i.e. no decoration, no playtesting, and no mineral/gas testing), assuming the map is simple (e.g. no ramps to balance) and doesn't introduce any particularly new ideas. Enmity was a 5-hour map because it was very simple, didn't try anything too new/risky, and was easy to symmetrize (if that's a word). In contrast, Counterpoint took at least 15 hours, mainly because it was VERY difficult to symmetrize. And if you look at the jpeg, you can see that even after 15+ hours of work, it still came out blatantly skewed. The nat areas were particularly troublesome: those were easily 4-5 hours of work right there. In the future, I doubt if I'll ever design another map with the same ideas behind Counterpoint because it's just so damn hard to make it positionally fair.
Of course none of those numbers take into account the time needed to test mineral formations, test wallins, and to do a good job of decorating the place. On my three maps combined I'd say I spent about 15-20 hours decorating them, and it really shows in-game where nearly every screen has various doodads and stuff on it. Ironically, a lot of people seem to praise maps that have a nice design on the jpeg, when ultimately the players or observers themselves will never see more than a screen at a time. But I have never in my life seen a comment on any map about the level of screen-by-screen decoration that it has. Ever. Unless I gave one, which is unlikely because I rarely see it in other people's maps. I mean obviously it's not as important as balance and gameplay, but considering the (utterly ridiculous) amount of attention attractive jpeg designs receive, you'd think that BW-level decoration would be given at least a sliver of attention.
Anyway, I think the point Mora was trying to make is that mapmakers generally need to spend more time working on their maps. In particular,
a) they need to spend more time analysing the balance of their map, and
b) they need to spend more time balancing their map positionally
If people want to make remarkable maps, then they need to hold themselves to higher standards and be willing to invest a lot of time into their creations. If I tried to throw together a new map using a new idea in just a few hours, I can almost guarantee that it would suck, just like I can almost guarantee that 1 lottery ticket won't win you the jackpot. Heck, maybe one of the main reasons why Mora and I are so successful is because we just spend a lot more time on our maps than the average mapmaker.
And, we don't release a new map for every single new idea we get, which I think is another common problem for young mapmakers. It's harsh, but sometimes you just gotta face yourself (or your enthusiastic friend) and say, "I'm sorry, but this idea is not going to work."
|
On my three maps combined I'd say I spent about 15-20 hours decorating them, and it really shows in-game where nearly every screen has various doodads and stuff on it. Ironically, a lot of people seem to praise maps that have a nice design on the jpeg, when ultimately the players or observers themselves will never see more than a screen at a time. But I have never in my life seen a comment on any map about the level of screen-by-screen decoration that it has. Ever. Unless I gave one, which is unlikely because I rarely see it in other people's maps. I mean obviously it's not as important as balance and gameplay, but considering the (utterly ridiculous) amount of attention attractive jpeg designs receive, you'd think that BW-level decoration would be given at least a sliver of attention.
alot of the tilesets dont have nearly the same number of usable doodads for decoration as jungle does. when i was making the maps i submitted to blizzcon, i had a lot of trouble because i used space for one, and twilight for the other, and both of them have almost no doodads that obstruct unit paths, so I was forced to place them near the edges and in places where it wouldnt frustrate the player.
do you have any suggestions as to how to decorate maps on other tilesets that have very few decorative resources (such as the ash tileset, which only has like 8 doodads) or tilesets that have no doodads that are walkable?
|
On August 16 2005 05:59 Djin)Xuul( wrote:
Teroru is totaly right... once i critizised u with the same arguments Starparty, but u didnt want to listen... u just felt personally attacked :/
the most usermaps are really shitty and short excursions at staredit tell me: "playing that map is a waste of time"
several months ago we had a mapcontest at broodwar.de where i took part at the jury... many many maps were sent in and 90% of them were total crap
most mapmakers should rly read those suggestions of Teroru and take critics seriously
Xuul, im glad you posted this, because this is the first time you got through to me (no im NOT sarcastic). this post is excelent and made me understand exactly what your point were. Couldnt you said this before instead of tons of random "this map is crap", "this map sux" without any motivation. Then we could have had this argument along time ago instead of now.
The problem with terorus article here is that he actually doesn't give any suggestions at all. he is only putting up "rules" as i was very very very flamed for trying to do when I saw a bunch of totally unplayable maps. Mapmaking is atleast 50% artistic freedom too, and saying that something is right or wrong when ultimately noone cares anyway just creates a bunch of angry kids, including me. Nothing else. Making maps is a personal hobby of mine and I will make maps the way i want, cause noone here or anywhere else will ever care anyway.
|
On August 16 2005 08:49 Teroru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2005 02:06 Starparty wrote:
Ok, here is the deal. I have no personal issue with You, and therefore i will try to be as factual as possible although i believe this to be the most bullying post ive read in a long time. You make some good points, although some of the statements are not for you to decide, but to post an article like this and simply stomping on everyones creations since they don't exactly fit Your taste, that's not very nice. I am in no position right now to review any of Your maps for creativity and gameplay, I have only my own opinions which i'll keep to myself. And therefore i humbly ask of You -and the rest of this community- who has tested a permillage of the maps posted here to do the same unless there is actually some -useful- critique included. First of all, the post was made half in jest. Please don't take it too seriously. Second of all, they are only guidelines, not criticisms or rules, and they aren't set in stone. I thought i made that fairly clear though where in each point i said 'there are exceptions to the rule'. You can disagree with me all you want, but when your (or someone elses map) doesn't win in a contest, and you've violated some of the afore mentioned guidelines, don't bother wondering why. I'm not sure what exactly your goal is when you make a map. Every map i make and release i expect to be played hundreds of times by hundreds of different players. Every single map. I don't just sit down and throw all of my ideas into a map, and show it to the community, and let it die out. If that is someones intention, all the power to them, for violating most of the guidelines will result in exactly that. (Again, i feel that you might take my point too literally, so i will just make it absolutely fucking clear that broken guidelines can still exist in a good map. The more guidelines you break while managing to keep your map a quality one the better your map will be). As for reviewing my maps, feel free to do so. Infact, i encourage you to do so. I have always encouraged the community to offer there critique, and can do so as harshly as they want. I put a great deal of thought, effort, and time into my maps. A negative critique can either be 1) accurate, and will help me improve my map or 2) be inaccurate, and prove my map to be all the better. More importantly, the highest tiered players outside of korea like my maps and consider them balanced. For every 1 player (at their level) who dislikes my map, there are 9 who love it. The exception would be Umbra Locus, as i went 'outside the box' and tried to incorporate some really new concepts to the map. They were embraced less so than my other maps. When i invented the mineral wall, i didn't expect it to become a staple of map making. It was my hope, at that time, that people would see "oh! you can think up new ideas that will really add to the gameplay!" and would be inspired to do so themselves. Oops, my bad. As i said before, sometimes mineral walls really add to the map, but i have so far not seen a map utilize it do so. So far, every mineral wall is used to be 'quirky', and in my opinion, detracts from the gameplay. On Coulee, the mineral wall had the potential to change an island map to a land map. It added a drastic element to the map. Not only did it make for unique gameplay, but it also helped to balance an island map for zerg. It's a shame that you do not consider my critique useful. Believe it or not, it was not my intention to be anything but helpful. I thought i could do it in a way that was fun to read, and would make people smile at the same time. It saddens me that you took it for 'bullying'.
Know that i have the outmost respect for your smooth tounge! This post adds what the article lacked. I still will not agree with You, but then again you are free to think whatever You want. Mapmaking to me is artistic freedom. No user map will be used for a greater purpose unless you have some "powerful friends". Since i currently don't I will make maps for myself, and they will look exactly they way I want. I have no reason to make them unplayable just because of that.
I actually have no reason to believe that you were pecking on me anyway so i have no idea why im arguing at all.
|
On August 16 2005 11:24 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2005 06:11 GrooVe wrote:
You can make good and balanced map in 5 hours. You can also win the lottery with just 1 ticket. Actually 5 hours is plausible for the initial design and first draft stages (i.e. no decoration, no playtesting, and no mineral/gas testing), assuming the map is simple (e.g. no ramps to balance) and doesn't introduce any particularly new ideas. Enmity was a 5-hour map because it was very simple, didn't try anything too new/risky, and was easy to symmetrize (if that's a word). In contrast, Counterpoint took at least 15 hours, mainly because it was VERY difficult to symmetrize. And if you look at the jpeg, you can see that even after 15+ hours of work, it still came out blatantly skewed. The nat areas were particularly troublesome: those were easily 4-5 hours of work right there. In the future, I doubt if I'll ever design another map with the same ideas behind Counterpoint because it's just so damn hard to make it positionally fair. Of course none of those numbers take into account the time needed to test mineral formations, test wallins, and to do a good job of decorating the place. On my three maps combined I'd say I spent about 15-20 hours decorating them, and it really shows in-game where nearly every screen has various doodads and stuff on it. Ironically, a lot of people seem to praise maps that have a nice design on the jpeg, when ultimately the players or observers themselves will never see more than a screen at a time. But I have never in my life seen a comment on any map about the level of screen-by-screen decoration that it has. Ever. Unless I gave one, which is unlikely because I rarely see it in other people's maps. I mean obviously it's not as important as balance and gameplay, but considering the (utterly ridiculous) amount of attention attractive jpeg designs receive, you'd think that BW-level decoration would be given at least a sliver of attention. Anyway, I think the point Mora was trying to make is that mapmakers generally need to spend more time working on their maps. In particular, a) they need to spend more time analysing the balance of their map, and b) they need to spend more time balancing their map positionally If people want to make remarkable maps, then they need to hold themselves to higher standards and be willing to invest a lot of time into their creations. If I tried to throw together a new map using a new idea in just a few hours, I can almost guarantee that it would suck, just like I can almost guarantee that 1 lottery ticket won't win you the jackpot. Heck, maybe one of the main reasons why Mora and I are so successful is because we just spend a lot more time on our maps than the average mapmaker. And, we don't release a new map for every single new idea we get, which I think is another common problem for young mapmakers. It's harsh, but sometimes you just gotta face yourself (or your enthusiastic friend) and say, "I'm sorry, but this idea is not going to work."
None of my maps will be better because i waste precious time on looking at it or moving the mouse very slow to create the map. Don't judge a map by the time it takes to make it. Judge it by the gameplay it results in. Dont forget that its your <b>position</b> that adds to you being a more succesful mapmaker, not the fact that you waste way too much time on making the actual map. You could release just about anything and people would raise their eyebrows. You should try sometime.
(no offence)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
