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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
Or me for that matter? I believe my maps raise eyebrows because they are raise-the-eyebrows worthy. And if you make a good map (i'm talking good in the eye of the map maker, good in the eye of the average player, and good in the eye of the high tiered player) it will be recognized as such. And you will be respected all the more for it. | ||
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JohnDS
2 Posts
On August 16 2005 12:24 Teroru wrote: And if you make a good map (i'm talking good in the eye of the map maker, good in the eye of the average player, and good in the eye of the high tiered player) it will be recognized as such. And you will be respected all the more for it. You can't argue that logic. | ||
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NeVeRDiEDrOnE
Korea (South)227 Posts
On August 16 2005 09:16 Teroru wrote: While you may think it impossible to create a well balanced map after such a long time, i think you are very much wrong. Every map maker should be aimed at balancing the map as best they can, and i believe that with some time, thought, and testing, relative balance (if not perfect balance) can be achieved. i agree with u, the impossible thingy was just an exaggeration of the fact that since sc is such an old game, an revolutioning map has to contain really shocking ideas and so comes that its really hard to find the balance, as seen on Alchemist. and i was thinking that before every league OGN did map balancing tests which confirmed the stability of the maps, then in the leagues it turned out horribly imba like every time. | ||
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NeVeRDiEDrOnE
Korea (South)227 Posts
but that seems the most natural thing for me 0.o provided that mapper didnt make it for masturbating alone, and publishes his work. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Maybe that's another common sight in the mapmaking community: few mapmakers are actually determined to "be the best". And if many of the maps Mora has been seeing were made by people who fit this description, then I guess it's no surprise he finds so many glaring issues permeating them all =/. | ||
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panschk[FP]
Germany148 Posts
Bill said he did some serious playtesting. Do you know decent players that actually try new maps? Or do you just play computer :x | ||
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SexWithTeroru
11 Posts
Starparty, you're an artist. That's fine, but that doesn't mean you make fun/balanced maps, it means you make pretty maps. Whenever someone criticizes your maps, you jump out at them(even in here when you weren't directly mentioned). Looking at your maps, its clear that you ignored balance. I've seen someone else make this comment (not here), and you lashed out at them, saying that they were just jealous of you. No, dude. You should listen to Bill and Mora; BW needs them. They are the best foreign map makers, and they both actually think about what they make. edit: Every RTS ever made has its money maps; good players simply avoid them, and bringing them into a map discussion about good maps is off topic. | ||
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DooMeR
United States1519 Posts
On August 15 2005 12:45 Teroru wrote: and to whomever made 'Verisimilitude' you are a fucking douche and i hope u get hit by a bus. And i am gonna throw a milkshake at em :O! | ||
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Tfums
Canada476 Posts
On August 16 2005 12:24 Teroru wrote: I don't think that's exactly fair StarParty. Do you think Bill started out famous? Or me for that matter? I believe my maps raise eyebrows because they are raise-the-eyebrows worthy. And if you make a good map (i'm talking good in the eye of the map maker, good in the eye of the average player, and good in the eye of the high tiered player) it will be recognized as such. And you will be respected all the more for it. Don't diss him man, he's got "my maps make your face cringe" worthyness. | ||
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Travin
Sweden672 Posts
I dont understand the aspect spending lots of hours just to make a map. Mapmaking skills increase like everything else... with training and making lots of maps. I have made surley 60+ maps and i can assure you that afther a while you start to learn what looks good and what doesnt. That really speeds some things up. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
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SexWithTeroru
11 Posts
On August 16 2005 13:58 Teroru wrote: travin, u are correct, but most map makers (at least outside of korea) do not have enough (playing) skill under their belt to determine balance in such a short period of time. And more often then not, your quick ideas for balance are simply incorrect. | ||
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Travin
Sweden672 Posts
and the map that i was talking about rose.of.dream said he made in 2 hours was paradoxxx | ||
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SexWithTeroru
11 Posts
On August 16 2005 14:03 Travin wrote: well every pro map isnt that balanced, im thinking more of the decoration process. and the map that i was talking about rose.of.dream said he made in 2 hours was paradoxxx And that was a very balanced map, right? | ||
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Travin
Sweden672 Posts
the thing is it dsnt matter how many hours you spend on a map... its just the result | ||
Empyrean
16971 Posts
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trcc
Canada298 Posts
 I'm confused | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
by the clan team liquid, i was known as 'tero' or 'teroru'. when they finally got a website, i stuck with the name. the rest of bw knows me as mora though (and now team liquid members refer to me as mora too). <3 | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On August 16 2005 14:03 Travin wrote: well every pro map isnt that balanced, im thinking more of the decoration process. and the map that i was talking about rose.of.dream said he made in 2 hours was paradoxxx Does that include time spent designing the map, and thinking about imbalance? Or just the construction phase? Also, I've noticed that korean mapmakers (like rose.of.dream) generally don't worry as much about precise positional balance as Mora and I do. You can see this theme illustrated in the way geysers are historically unfair on promaps (although I think that's starting to change). Generally, the korean promaps tend to be fairly asymmetrical compared to our maps. That's not necessarily a bad thing (in fact I would say it's a very beneficial skill to possess), but it would explain why they would spend a lot less time on their maps. Plus the greater amount of experience, and the greater amount of skill (I'm assuming? don't know really). Also, maybe they don't need to spend as much time thinking about balance because they can get other people's advice or get it playtested more easily and frequently than our maps. On August 16 2005 13:29 panschk[FP] wrote: Bill said he did some serious playtesting. Do you know decent players that actually try new maps? Or do you just play computer :x I wanted to do some serious playtesting. But things didn't go as planned. I got about 10-15 games total against iD.Insane (  ) and T_v (), whom I asked if they would help me test my maps. Also, 2/3 of that time was spent on Blue Valleys. The other 1/3 was spent on Counterpoint, as Enmity didn't even exist yet. And that was the extent of my playtesting  . I was mainly trying to make sure that there weren't any devastating racial imbalances, and just generally getting an idea of how the maps felt in an actual game. And also being creative, coming up with new strategies, and just having fun playing BW  (except for ZvT which was so frustratingasdasdfasdsad but better than PvZ at least ).I would NEVER use computers for playtesting: the whole point was to think of map-specific strategies and how to abuse the map in the most cruel way possible. Comps don't do this AT ALL. I use comps to verify the mineral formations though, while I sit back and try to kill 2 SCVs at the same time over and over and over, or listen to radio free zerg, or just watch the probes mining and get mad at the unit pathing when things go wrong . | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
I totally agree with you regarding mineral walls. After Detonation, EVERYONE started using them. In fact, even when Coulee was created, I looked at the map and thought "oh great, mineral walls again" even though it was only like the second map to ever use mineral walls. It was the same with the anti-Terran island expansions - the ones with the single 8-mineral patches that are placed where the Command Center would ordinarily land, so Terrans can't float there. After Namja Iyagi, EVERYONE started using this idea (Coulee, again, incidentally). Really, when great ideas involving clever mineral placement emerged, it was really cool and invited a new dimension of strategy to maps, but they are done to death. Even recycling those ideas for another map is bad enough, let alone tens of maps. | ||
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