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Thanks for a nice read.
I dont know why Broodwar or Starcraft in general has been my favourite game from the moment I saw it.
But altho it was such a long time ago I can still remember me and my friend playing this for the first time and i belive that was around 99.
My imagination back then was alot wider and as a child you only needed a glimse of something that realy cought your affection to create a experience byond what I can get myself into today.
Sure, today I can still be mesmerized by the cinematics and how the saga unfolds, but the gaming feelings itself is not there, and I guess it hasnt been there for a long time for me when it comes to new games / other games.
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It's not about the game but about the scene? Watching Jaedong, Bisu, Flash play the game to the fullest and compete for championships is what drives TL. BW is an old game. Mechanics and AI is dated and it's hard as hell to play. If you ever reach C- on ICCUP my hat is off to you. BGH and UMS maps are more fun to play for casual gamers. Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. The BW scene is current.  sHy beat  Sea last week using hallucination on arbiters to bait emp shots from Sea's science vessels. When the decoy arbiters were destroyed he recalled on his base. S-I-C-K play from the masters that makes the game fun even today. Nothing nostalgic about that tactic - it was cutting edge! As for what the game was in 2001 - I'm not as interested as in the current scene. Would be lovely if someone could do a Day9 daily type show and talk about it for the late comers.
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Maybe overreacting a little bit? What makes you think that EVERYONE likes graphics and not gameplay, if the game is shit people wont play it. And the graphics of today will be complete crap in the future to so, how are we the last generation?
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On December 27 2011 23:41 aebriol wrote:
Thing is, 'gameplay over graphics' also mean a gameplay you enjoy.
Not everyone will enjoy the same type of gameplay.
I will say that I personally think Starcraft 2 has better gameplay (while Brood:War had better story, and was better for competitions), but I think that some of the gameplay elements of brood war simply aren't good. Like the pathing for some units, like lack of multiple building select, amount you could hotkey, rally points, and so on.
Also, I am for other reasons, nostalgic about EverQuest when I play mmorpg's. But I can't honestly say it was because it was the better game ... in many ways, it was because it was the poorer game, with mechanics that wasn't well understood at the time when the genre was new, and the relatively poor balance. It felt more like an actual RPG - whereas newer MMORPG's to me feel more like 'games'.
A lot of people say that they love Eve (the mmorpg) because of gameplay over graphics ... but me, I never liked the gameplay in that game, so it wasn't for me.
Probably the best single player gameplay that's been invented is to me Tetris ... doesn't mean I enjoy it more than Skyrim.
ps: I was 18 when Starcraft 1 came out ... when I think back to me earlier gaming experiences, it's NES, Eye of the Beholder, Civilization 1, Sim City, Amiga 500 that stand out. Dune 2 I actually remember playing a ton of (and I don't think anyone will argue that it's anything but nostalgia that makes me think fondly about that game).
wow looks like you are totally misunderstanding the meaning on the word "gameplay".
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Perfect example is WoW with outdated graphics yet 10 billion ppl playing it day after day. Gameplay > graphics, no question, but after one point, graphics do need to bring a level of quality.
I totally bealive SC2 can become what BW is now, if the gameplay gets to a perfect point after the last expansion, if it happens, sc2 will be played even in 10 years, and if iccup will be still here, then there will be one more person who plays BW in 2020~ 
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On December 27 2011 23:41 aebriol wrote:
Thing is, 'gameplay over graphics' also mean a gameplay you enjoy.
Not everyone will enjoy the same type of gameplay.
I will say that I personally think Starcraft 2 has better gameplay (while Brood:War had better story, and was better for competitions), but I think that some of the gameplay elements of brood war simply aren't good. Like the pathing for some units, like lack of multiple building select, amount you could hotkey, rally points, and so on.
Also, I am for other reasons, nostalgic about EverQuest when I play mmorpg's. But I can't honestly say it was because it was the better game ... in many ways, it was because it was the poorer game, with mechanics that wasn't well understood at the time when the genre was new, and the relatively poor balance. It felt more like an actual RPG - whereas newer MMORPG's to me feel more like 'games'.
A lot of people say that they love Eve (the mmorpg) because of gameplay over graphics ... but me, I never liked the gameplay in that game, so it wasn't for me.
Probably the best single player gameplay that's been invented is to me Tetris ... doesn't mean I enjoy it more than Skyrim.
ps: I was 18 when Starcraft 1 came out ... when I think back to me earlier gaming experiences, it's NES, Eye of the Beholder, Civilization 1, Sim City, Amiga 500 that stand out. Dune 2 I actually remember playing a ton of (and I don't think anyone will argue that it's anything but nostalgia that makes me think fondly about that game).
Oh yeah! Dune2!
Now we're talking nostalgia. My favorite computer game from when I was a kid, untill SC came along.
I remember when SC came out I was happy they copied(In my mind) Dune 2 and we got 3 choices on who to play.
I actually played through Dune 2 as Atreides about a week ago for nostalgic reasons. Got chills watching the opening video, and experienced dead awful controls, I didn't remember being that bad.
BW is such an easy game compared to Dune 2. ;p
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On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again.
wow, this encompassed what I have said and thought on so many occasions. I truly hope that your last sentence holds true
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On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again.
I've been playing video games since Doom I (I was six years old at that time) and to be honest, I've only seen an increase in quality, not a decrease. Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters, that allow you to connect and play with people all over the world in a relatively painless fashion (sorry but SC:BW's Battle.net interface is just disgusting). Games like Skyrim, BF3, Modern Warfare series (yes, I love those, all three of them), Gears of War, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft, Bioshock series etc.
Games like that were just impossible to make in the nineties. I still play Doom 1 and 2 from time to time, only for nostalgia's sake. They're fun, but not nearly as fun as
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On December 28 2011 00:11 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 23:45 Sawamura wrote:On December 27 2011 23:38 Inori wrote:On December 27 2011 23:29 Sawamura wrote:On December 27 2011 23:21 Inori wrote:
old games are awesome because you grew up with them.
Sorry but this topic looks like one of those "It used to be great, now it's shit" and "I'm better cuz I was born earlier" bs.
Especially "It's truly plausible that we are probably the last of our kind to actually appreciate game play over graphics" makes me laugh and feel like OP is actually one of the younger generations himself.
Let me tell you about graphics back then. All those games were considered state-of-the-art graphics wise, you needed to dish out a huge amount of money for your PC to handle beasts like Doom, NFS, Carmageddon, WC and D1. I sure as hell still remember how I puked rainbows after looking at q2, sc1 and d2 graphics for the first time.
It was never "Graphics or Gameplay", it was always "Graphics AND Gameplay". Was in the 80s. Was in the 90s. Is now. There are good titles released every year. Sure, you can count them with 1 hand usually, but you can't even imagine the amount of crap that was released & forgotten in the 90s.
Only reason you feel it's different is because you have hipster syndrome. Hope you'll get better soon. Tell me something I don't know , old games are old games , timeless classic . Hipster syndrome ? sure http://bradenbost.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/hipster-syndrome/ ??? First you say "It used to be all about gameplay and now it's graphics!!11", I note that it was always about both and you reply with "tell me something I don't know"? /thread? P.S. rofl @ "timeless classic". Mozart, Beethoven, Pushkin, Shakespeare, da Vinci works are timeless classics. 10-15 year old games are 10-15 year old games. If it will be remembered 100-200 years from now, then it might be considered "timeless classic". Let's compare football to games and even music ? Might as well flush my brain down the toilet besides that my definition of timeless classic may not suit you but whatever . So only products which are actually 100 years and above can only be classified as timeless classics huh ? Than this guy who suggested this list of movies should also have his brain check because he doesn't suit the definition of your "timeless classic " http://community.flixster.com/blog/eight-movies-we-are-afraid-to-criticizeSeriously if you want to take on me , I would gladly take it in pm. Way to get defensive. Note that I didn't say anything about a "brain check", I only found it funny to call 10-15 year old games "timeless classics". And yes, calling 20-30 year old movies " timeless classics" is also funny. It's simply not for us to decide. And I have nothing against you, just your elitist/hipster thoughts that you decided to express in public for everyone to view and agree/disagree.
Your argument about timeless classics sucks. Following that logic, 600 years for Beethoven and other musical dudes is insignificant compared to the however many billion years this earth has existed for. I don't believe anything can really be considered a "timeless classic" in the literal sense anyway, but that's not relevant to this discussion.
I think a lot of people are confused as to what graphics actually are and think it means whether the game has a high polycount or not. Art style is a huge factor into whether a game's graphics look good or not. That's why I think SC2's graphics are terrible because everything's all glittery and shiny, you can't tell what's what, the colors are all muddled together, and none of the units look particularly good theyre all kind of generic. Whereas in BW everything is simple, clean, crisp, and clear, and the colors are nice and contrast well with each other so you can easily tell what's going on, and each unit has a distinct, unique design that looks great.
What also gets me about the SC2 brigade is when they use that argument that its all nostalgia when we talk about BW. How can it be nostalgia if we're still playing and watching BW today and enjoying it? lmao
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On December 28 2011 00:33 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again. I've been playing video games since Doom I (I was six years old at that time) and to be honest, I've only seen an increase in quality, not a decrease. Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters, that allow you to connect and play with people all over the world in a relatively painless fashion (sorry but SC:BW's Battle.net interface is just disgusting). Games like Skyrim, BF3, Modern Warfare series (yes, I love those, all three of them), Gears of War, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft, Bioshock series etc. Games like that were just impossible to make in the nineties. I still play Doom 1 and 2 from time to time, only for nostalgia's sake. They're fun, but not nearly as fun as
A lot of those games have taken a sharp decrease in quality from their predecessors. For example, Bioshock is heavily simplified and lamer when compared to the System Shocks.
Modern Warfare? Really? You mean the interactive movie that's not really a game? Maybe this game rivals hollywood blockbusters because it actually is a hollywood blockbuster, not a videogame.
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On December 28 2011 00:33 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again. I've been playing video games since Doom I (I was six years old at that time) and to be honest, I've only seen an increase in quality, not a decrease. Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters, that allow you to connect and play with people all over the world in a relatively painless fashion (sorry but SC:BW's Battle.net interface is just disgusting). Games like Skyrim, BF3, Modern Warfare series (yes, I love those, all three of them), Gears of War, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft, Bioshock series etc. Games like that were just impossible to make in the nineties. I still play Doom 1 and 2 from time to time, only for nostalgia's sake. They're fun, but not nearly as fun as
Show me a game that can rivals movies like Terminator 2 and Aliens in terms of memorable action pack sequences and adrenaline rush , I dare say none ....
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On December 28 2011 00:33 maartendq wrote: Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters
I would consider that a very bad thing for gaming as a whole. Even though video games has always been a business, now its a lucrative business so people who don't understand anything about gaming will get involved and drive developers into making shitty games for insane profits.
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10-15 years is pretty significant in the 30 years of gaming history.
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I started playing Starcraft in the first year it came out. I took a long hiatus(3 or 4 years), but I eventually returned to it, because it was just so much fun. I still love the original Diablo, Contra from the NES, Battletoads(yes, Battletoads), Neverwinter Nights, Jagged Alliance 1 and 2, Age of Empires 1 and 2, and many others I can't name. Gameplay back then was so simple, yet amazing.
Fun fact: I was 7 when Starcraft first released. I'm glad I was raised with such a great game. Kinda wish I had kept playing it, I wouldn't be D right now haha.
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Personally, I was drawn to bw because I bought sc2 on release date. Back home, when my dad noticed me playing it, I was told that there was a game named "brood war". At first, I didn't care because I took a glance at the graphics and thought it would suck.
I played sc2 at a very low level and got into bw through Sayle and his livestreaming. I found it much easier when he talked about the game and understood more of it. I still only watched brood war, didn't play at all. More time passed and I stopped playing sc2, but continued watching tournaments and I still watched Sayle's stream everyday.
When Sayle began streaming his fp-view while playing, I decided to start playing. I loved the game, I went 4-30 in my first season on ICCUP, but I couldn't stop playing. I read liquipedia until I knew many of the articles by heart, especially the history about players and teams.
The point is, I am not attached to bw because of nostalgia. I'm almost younger than the game itself and started playing this year. There is still new people coming to the scene and as long as sc2 lives, people will continue hearing about bw because of the "2" at the end.
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I'm so happy someone mentioned Eye of the Beholder. I was just looking for some old game from the childhood to play again, fits perfectly! So gonna play it again. :p Not to talk about Elvira!
When does something qualify as a timeless classic? I find it hard to just measure it in time, imo it's more of how well the product (movie, game, music whatever) can stand its ground against the evolution of that genre. Shawshank Redemption for example, 20 years old, I would definately call that one a timeless classic. BW, not so sure. Computer games have evolved with incredible speed compared to other stuff, but with a subjective view I can definately stand behind that opinion. And isn't it all about subjectivity when measuring stuff like this? Shakespeare isn't a classic to me, but to maaaaany others. Difficult subject. Who decides?
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On December 28 2011 00:38 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 00:33 maartendq wrote:On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again. I've been playing video games since Doom I (I was six years old at that time) and to be honest, I've only seen an increase in quality, not a decrease. Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters, that allow you to connect and play with people all over the world in a relatively painless fashion (sorry but SC:BW's Battle.net interface is just disgusting). Games like Skyrim, BF3, Modern Warfare series (yes, I love those, all three of them), Gears of War, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft, Bioshock series etc. Games like that were just impossible to make in the nineties. I still play Doom 1 and 2 from time to time, only for nostalgia's sake. They're fun, but not nearly as fun as Show me a game that can rivals movies like Terminator 2 and Aliens in terms of memorable action pack sequences and adrenaline rush , I dare say none ....
Terminator 2 and Aliens... OMG my childhood nightmares...
I think its hard to argue the quality of the game increasing. Most games these days have such a linear design and there are rarely any cleaver moments. I saw the extreme of this in Final Fantasy 13. The difficulties are too consistent and when everything is either easy or hard, it's difficult to create a memorable/bragging right moments.
Sure the menu, graphics and physics are getting better. But can we really say that Modern Warfare games are as fun as when we played Doom 1 and Doom 2 for the first time? I will never get the thrill and scare I've experienced with the very first Rainbow 6 in any of the new shooters.
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On December 28 2011 00:38 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 00:33 maartendq wrote:On December 27 2011 22:43 writer22816 wrote:
We don't play games like BW, CS 1.6, Quake, Fallout 1/2, PST, Baldur's Gate etc because of nostalgia. We play them because they're GREAT games, superior to most if not all of the games on the market today.
Labeling these games as outdated makes about as much sense as labeling classical music outdated. For that reason I also do not think we are the last generation.
Another question that I have often pondered about is: when will we start seeing games of BW-quality again? Given the recent trend of virtually all modern games being easy to play, targeted towards the casual gamer etc one cannot help but wonder if we will ever see a masterpiece like BW again. This issue is of course linked with the future of eSports as a whole. Personally I feel that, as video games lose their negative social stigma, and as the idea of competitive gaming becomes more accepted, eventually we will start seeing far more truly great games again. I've been playing video games since Doom I (I was six years old at that time) and to be honest, I've only seen an increase in quality, not a decrease. Nowadays we get games that easily rival hollywood blockbusters, that allow you to connect and play with people all over the world in a relatively painless fashion (sorry but SC:BW's Battle.net interface is just disgusting). Games like Skyrim, BF3, Modern Warfare series (yes, I love those, all three of them), Gears of War, Starcraft 2, World of Warcraft, Bioshock series etc. Games like that were just impossible to make in the nineties. I still play Doom 1 and 2 from time to time, only for nostalgia's sake. They're fun, but not nearly as fun as Show me a game that can rivals movies like Terminator 2 and Aliens in terms of memorable action pack sequences and adrenaline rush , I dare say none ....
Personally, that would be Gears of War 2. There wasn't a single sequence that I did not find extremely memorable. It's still the best game of the series, in my opinion, and one of the hallmarks of the current console generation. That game is one of the few that really give me that "blockbuster"-feeling. Everything just fits: the polish, the scale of what's at stake, the characters, the atmosphere, etc.
I'm only talking about the Single Player Campaign here, by the way. I don't really care for Gears' multiplayer.
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EPT
