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On December 30 2011 05:42 Daozzt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:57 OrangeSoda wrote:On December 29 2011 19:55 Daozzt wrote:On December 29 2011 19:09 OrangeSoda wrote:On December 29 2011 18:45 Daozzt wrote:On December 29 2011 18:31 hitthat wrote:On December 29 2011 07:28 ninini wrote:
When ppl are saying SC2 is eye candy they are not saying that they dislike it because of the graphics, they are implying that graphics is all it's got, and that the actual gameplay is bad. Starcraft might have been considered eye candy back in the day, but it also had substance.
Everything about SC2 is worse than BW. It has terrible unit physics (movements). Compare how a group of zerglings moves in the different games. The BW zerglings are much more realistic to how they would move in a real battlefield. The graphics in SC2 are advanced but poorly made, I mean you can barely distinguish individual units. There are also less tactical units in SC2, and the tactical units is what makes BW so great.
BW is just better in all aspects, including physics, graphics and gameplay. Am I the only one that thinks graphic in SC2 is NOT even that good, even if we take RTS standards into consideration? After CoH and DoW2, SC2 looks just ugly. Hell, Supreme Commander is not worse than SC2 with its graphics. No, I'm not trolling anyone, thats exacly what my opinion is! In the contrast, SC2 single player is MORE fun. Missions are more difficult and diversed than those from BW [all cheese scenario and warcraftesque shit like "good corrupted overmind" doesnt take the good impresion] The graphics of SC2 aren't impressive, but they aren't bad enough that they will turn off newer players. Despite what people say about graphics, it is the main reason why nobody new plays or watches the Brood War. Younger kids nowadays think games like FF7 or BW look like shit because they grew up with ps2 or xbox as their first gaming console, and cannot appreciate good games with dated graphics. Main reason why no one watches brood war? you are a funny guy. You are correct about the graphics being outdated, considering the game is over a decade old, but really you think the main reason is the graphics? The main reason no one watches broodwar is because its casted at awful times for NA and EU, oh and its casted in Korean, good luck getting anyone into a game when its only catered to koreans. Also what are the chances someone bothers to pick up a game made in 98, or any game from the 90s. your BW elitism is terrible, you play broodwar so you look down upon anyone that doesn't play it? I remember back in the day when we poked eachother with sticks because thats all there was! now kids these days got all these gizmos and gadgets! they can't even apperciate a good stick poking now! How is that elitist at all? New players don't play dated games because they are turned off because to them, the game looks like garbage and they can't see past the dated textures. How you can deny that is beyond me. If you gave a kid who grew up playing halo a gameboy color, he'd probably toss it in the trash. The only people who appreciate old games for their quality are older gamers 90% of the time (obviously). I grew up playing NES as my first gaming system, and i would probably toss a gameboy color in the trash too, its old, get with the times. I remember playing pokemon blue on the big fat gameboy that had no color. If someone gave it to me now i wouldn't touch it. It was the best we had at the time, but now there is better. You said it yourself " New players don't play dated games because they are turned off because to them, the game looks like garbage". Graphics are not everything, but when you compare a gameboy or any old system to what we have acess to now, its an easy choice. Everyone in this thread references old classic games and always compare it to CoD, when in reality there are a bunch of great games that have been made in the past few years. Lmao, way to quote what I said and actually not read it. I said to THEM, it looks like shit, but for older people that have played it and and know that it's a great game, they don't care about graphics. There's nothing wrong with playing old games that are good, and there's no need to "get with the times". I would rather much sit down and play Ocarina of Time on the N64 than play Wii tennis or whatever the fuck comes out nowadays.
Funny that you bring up garbage on Wii. "Casuals" seemingly like BAD games with BAD graphics. Neither gameplay nor graphics matter anymore, apparently.
On December 30 2011 07:30 dementrio wrote:
There's also, I think, a limit to how many games you can squeeze out of one particular concept. Especially single player games. A later game may do the same thing better, but it's the same thing. I think Mass effect is an example; the second chapter is simply better than the first under every aspect, but I got tired of it very fast despite putting a good deal of hours in the first.
This does not only apply to sequels. I enjoyed the first single-player fps "campaign" I played, and it was not an especially good one. Now each and every fps is pure boredom to me. Of course I instinctively feel that my first game was the better one.
I don't know how you can say ME2 > ME1 in every aspect. The games are sufficiently different that you can't definitively say one is better than the other. ME2 was more shooty, ME1 was more explory. The two games shined in different aspects
(not disagreeing with your point, just disagreeing with your example)
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On December 30 2011 08:24 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 06:25 Ribbon wrote:
BTW: Nostalgia is when you played BW 10 years ago and think the campaign was really amazing when in fact it has a lot of flaws you forgot about.
Nostalgia is not when you've been doing something religiously for years and still like it. No, nostalgia does not necessarily indicate a flaw viewed of the past, merely a yearning for the past, though I agree that BW play doesn't necessarily count as nostalgia because many still play it because it's still fun now.
Yearning for tommorow when CJ gets dethroned 
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It's not nostalgia and nor are we the last generation. In fact, a lot of "Indie" game developers are making a killing creating games that prioritize gameplay over all else. Hello, Dwarf Fortress? Minecraft? These games consume more of my time than most new games that come out, including Starcraft. I still like the new stuff too, don't get me wrong-- a lot of them are fun and have value/potential, but gameplay (and also story) definitely comes first in the "true gamer" market and some developers realize that. That being said, there are still developers who craft engaging games with great gameplay, graphics and story too that manage to appeal to the larger gaming market-- Metal Gear, Uncharted, Civilization, etc. are some series that are just downright great games that have adapted with the times. So in the end, these games will forever be played not out of a longing for the past but for an appreciation of quality-- these are fantastic games that will stand the test of time so long as there are gamers who demand such quality, which there will continue to be for a good long time I believe.
So, in short, do your part for quality gameplay gaming-- make your child play Dwarf Fortress and experience the horror of a Catsplosion first hand!
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its what you grow up with and the broodwar generation of the late 90s and on who experienced gaming to what its become today will probably always prefer what they loved. Im 16 and i can say that i played broodwar growing up, little at that and today i went back to see the game i liked and even though i play sc2, i still stay up to watch broodwar streams. I went out of my way to play diablo 2 and saw how great it was. These games are timeless and even if they might come to an end of being the mainstream games, they will always be played in someway somewhere. Whether or not broodwar will ever die in korea is another thing though
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While I agree there is a wave of gamers that are:
"Omg minecraft I'm a gamer"
"lolol CoDMW3 56 prestige I'm hardcore MLG pro xXx"
"look at my farm guiz I'm a pro farmville gamer nerd xD"
and
"anything besides FPSs are for nerds and is gay"
I can agree that this wave or waves of "gamers" if you can call them that do just pick up the most mainstream and sparkle pretty pretty directed by michael bay. There are still plenty of "underground" gamers that DO appreciate and enjoy gameplay > graphics. Such players are those who play Deus Ex for it's story, regardless of the 2008 quality textures and animations, or Company of Heroes for it's strategy, regardless of slow pace.
Same can be said about Brood War and SC2, however, SC2 is MUCH more appealing to view, and draws in more people and grows eSports MUCH better than Broodwar EVER will in this day and age. I feel this post was a clever way of saying "Starcraft 2 is all graphics no skill", which I take offense to, but there is a point to where you do need the appeal of graphics to create a larger audience and playerbase.
For example, someone is in a coffee shop playing broodwar at a professional level (why? don't ask, it's a hypothetical situation), someone that's a gamer glances over, doesn't know what it is, and mistakes it for a flash game, or something really old and insignificant, and walks away. Scenario 2: Same guy plays SC2 instead on medium graphics, same observer glances over, sees colossi melting away marines and vikings and there's warp gates warping units in and all this crazy shit is happening. He's more interested because it looks more intense, and more fascinating. He asks "what is this?" blah blah blah you get the picture. eSports needs a modern game to grow, otherwise non-gamers will not be interested in observing. I feel a lot of BW vets need to stop being such hipster nerds, making their community exclusive only to BW, a game with 13 year old graphics, which little to no one except SC2 players will even bother looking up.
I completely do not remember where I was going with this, but my main point is, is that times change, graphics improve, good graphics =/= good/bad gameplay, as bad graphics =/= bad/good gameplay. It's a little hard to relate, I can respect, but again, it's hard to relate to the viewpoint of a lot of diehard BW vets. Sure BW is a great game, that's balanced (only because of how long it lived. 13 years you better hope so), and took a great amount of skill to play, and that's why you look down upon modern shiny games like CoD, which I do as well, I feel your pain brother as these shiny games are literally killing the gaming industry. This does not mean though that "all modern games are shit for gameplay." as I can name off a ton. CoH, SC2, BF2 (old but w/e), EVE, Dota 2, LoL is fairly balanced, Deus Ex.
I really hope my post makes sense.
Edit: grammar and flow of my ideas
P.S. A thought just crossed my mind that I need to rant about.
Command & Conquer ladies and gentlemen, one of the best games I ever played, ever. This game DEFINED my ages 3-10. (I actually played the demo in 1996) I will never forget the days, playing on my windows 98 in the garage (no room in the house for my computer  ), playing skirmishes against the computer in Red Alert, as I had no internet connection in my early days of living in this modern world. Tryi9ng my hardest to beat the NOD campaign in C&C, fighting the good fight as GDI, taking over Europe as the Soviets, and then having my computer die on the last Allied mission, which I have never beat to this day. I never played much Tiberian Sun, but the little I did, I was happy with.
And then came along EA games, the great superpower of the gaming industry... Ok the great destroyer of gaming companies*.
Red Alert 2, that monstrosity made me vomit as my 11 year old self, RA2:YV, I didn't even acknowledge that was happining. When a fucking 11 year old thinks a game is silly you know it's terrible. Every new game that came out in that series had better and better graphics, not top of the line, but above average for the day, and every game that came out was significantly more terrible than the last. I cried while playing WC3 as I knew my childhood was violated and abused. C&C3 was promising, and then the expansion killed that promise, and I do not to this day believe C&C4 is anything more than a trolling attempt by the internet.
I guess this helps me relate to the BW vets a little, seeing a game they played back in the day be raped by modern expectations and mega-corps. I still do not believe though that Starcraft is a victim of this.
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United States10139 Posts
On December 28 2011 16:26 Ribbon wrote:
I think one big flaw in that analogy is that Chess fans don't refer to Checkers fans as shitheads.
I loled so hard at this.
I think we need to begin with a positive attitude to keep this game alive for as long as possible. Don't give into the BS that people say like "Oh sc2 is the real deal now, stop playing that crap game of yours" like my sc2 friends always say. Are we the last generation? Maybe. But if we think we are, we start to give up. Just play this game and spread it. Show it to friends, they might get interested and spread it more. If we can spread the word of how great this game is, BW may never end.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On December 30 2011 12:01 FlaShFTW wrote:
Are we the last generation? Maybe. But if we think we are, we start to give up.
*Instantly earned respect from _Quasar_*
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There are good games all the time, and some are more replayable and memorable than others. BW because it has multiplayer, it's deep, balanced, strategic and has a huge pro scene in Korea. CS because it has huge pro scene, it's fast, exciting, and skillful. Deus Ex because it has varied approaches and memorable settings, music, environments, and that RPG FPS hybrid which is oh so popular these days.
But there are plenty of crap old games that fade out into the blackness which I've never even heard of. It's just the continued Darwinian evolution of the gaming industry.
BW is an amazing thing, it's been around for so long that many new gamers don't get to experience the magic, and many do not want to experience it because it looks outdated and has old conventions that we are not used to in modern RTS games and that console gaming has become far more popular. However, your opinions are being overly hipster-y/"get off my lawn". It is a great game that has a dwindling player base, and its new sequel has not lived up to the great expectations and hype, but that does not mean the new "generation" of games will be all crap and over commercialised filler. Plenty of great games stand out from the crowd and they will be played and replayed until the new "generation" of gamers are old and end up posting longingly about them on the internet.
But of course, I'm being entirely too cold and unemotional. BW is incredible, and this is Teamliquid. To TL, BW is the equivalent of soccer and football and baseball and basketball and racing and Olympics combined. It's a lifestyle, it's a love, it's a significant other.
BW4Lyfe is called for, I believe.
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On December 30 2011 12:01 FlaShFTW wrote:But if we think we are, we start to give up. Just play this game and spread it. Show it to friends, they might get interested and spread it more. If we can spread the word of how great this game is, BW may never end.
I often feel like a not insignificant percentage of the Brood War community actually WANTS to be the last generation. I think it's one of BW's biggest problems right now, that there's so much anger and negativity. BW should be fun.
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On December 30 2011 12:15 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 12:01 FlaShFTW wrote:But if we think we are, we start to give up. Just play this game and spread it. Show it to friends, they might get interested and spread it more. If we can spread the word of how great this game is, BW may never end. I often feel like a not insignificant percentage of the Brood War community actually WANTS to be the last generation. I think it's one of BW's biggest problems right now, that there's so much anger and negativity. BW should be fun.
BW is fun  well except getting bm by player who steam rolled you easily and made queens to infest your CC T_T .
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On December 30 2011 16:30 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 12:15 Ribbon wrote:On December 30 2011 12:01 FlaShFTW wrote:But if we think we are, we start to give up. Just play this game and spread it. Show it to friends, they might get interested and spread it more. If we can spread the word of how great this game is, BW may never end. I often feel like a not insignificant percentage of the Brood War community actually WANTS to be the last generation. I think it's one of BW's biggest problems right now, that there's so much anger and negativity. BW should be fun. BW is fun well except getting bm by player who steam rolled you easily and made queens to infest your CC T_T .
I was playing on ICCUP the other night and lost some marines to mutas because I was off on my timings and generally bad (sidenote: The biggest thing making BW harder than SC2 is the lack of clock, not the lack of MBS), and he starting raging at me for being a noob.
Who does that? I get being angry that you lost, or that you didn't win as easily as you "should have", or even a pre-emptive gg, but people getting angry at me for losing to them seems to be unique to the BW community.
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They probably had an epic drone split, perfect micro/macro game at whatever level they play and they wanted to face someone better?
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EPT
