On October 29 2011 02:26 deafhobbit wrote: Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
F that noise. Korean commentary or go home!
No, you're wrong. If you know enough about the game to understand it without english commentary, by all means watch it with Korea. Korean commentators have more enthusiasm than anyone else, and turn a GG into an orgasmic experience.
With that said, someone who doesn't follow BW, and who doesn't understand how it works, will have no idea whats going on with Korean commentary, and probably won't bother to watch.
to me, the most awesome moments was when the game, no even rts itself, was figured out more and more.
the two most memorable moments of me was the reign of boxer and then the reign of his pupil oov.
boxer was the first to really micro, who probably used units the way blizzard didn't even imagine they could be used (dropship + tank) and abused immaruculous micro to win battles many others would have lost. he was such a great character in the world of esports and in Korea in general, that when he started his military service, he didn't need to do military chores, the military started to play starcraft.
oov was the first to really macro. no matter how often his opponent would crush his army, there was always another army on the horizon, most of the times even bigger than the previous ones. this is what earned him the nick cheater terran!
Play Brood War one year, and think about the hardships you've faced, then watch some big names playing Brood War, may be fpvods, doesn't matter, then you will appreciate bw scene.
For me, the only way to fully understand how things are things, is just to play the game.
On October 29 2011 01:59 BLinD-RawR wrote: be specific in what you want to know,I will help you as much as I can.
In short, everything.
What should a sc2 fan know about the broodwar scene in order to fully apprecciate this great series of games?
If I wanted to learn about flash and jaedong, where should I go?
I really wanted to cleave this thread up to the broodwar community - what do you think a new sc2 fan needs to know.
I don't know if you actually played BW yet, but if you really want to enjoy the VODs you watch, you should try playing it first. SC2BW (on appropriate settings of course) even if you don't have BW, once you've played a few games I think you can appreciate watching the pros more.
I have played a few games against the computer. It was hard
You don't have to have a certain skill level but I think most SC2 players don't realize how hard it is to keeping making workers and not have auto mine or control 30 zerglings at once or macro out of 10 gates without MBS. So once you get an idea of how hard it is actually play the game, you will love watching the pros more.
my idol reach great storm against flash, nice storm+nice flank
I want to talk a bit about this clip, with the low quality someone whose not used to BW might miss the epicness.
So, it's a pretty standard late game Pvt - Flash has a large group of tanks supported by vultures, goliaths, and vessels. He's standing against a wall to prevent a flank. Reach lands a solid stasis from an arbiter JUST before Flash's EMP hits, and charges in, with about 1/3 of the tanks disabled.
By itself, that's pretty cool, but the real epicness comes a few seconds later. Flash has his vessels to the right side of his army, since he needs them to detect Reach's cloaked army. However, Reach moves an arbiter in on the left, over the wall at flash's back, and uses it's cloak field to hide a shuttle with 2 HT's in it. He drops them right behind Flash's army, and is perfectly positioned to line up a few devastating storms that kill most of Flash's active tanks, letting his army sweep up the rest.
Keep your eye on the left half of the screen, that's where the epicness really lies.
On October 29 2011 02:26 deafhobbit wrote: Guys, when were posting vods for people who haven't watched BW, we really should post them with english commentary. Remember, in all likelihood they've never watched games without it.
F that noise. Korean commentary or go home!
No, you're wrong. If you know enough about the game to understand it without english commentary, by all means watch it with Korea. Korean commentators have more enthusiasm than anyone else, and turn a GG into an orgasmic experience.
With that said, someone who doesn't follow BW, and who doesn't understand how it works, will have no idea whats going on with Korean commentary, and probably won't bother to watch.
I agree with this. When I first started attending SC matches, I barely even paid attention to the games. As someone with only some level of RTS knowledge, and no knowledge specifically of SC, I had a really hard time figuring out what the hell was going on. I mean sure, two players clash their armies, the guy with the units left is probably the winner, but it wasn't interesting to watch. I fell asleep during sets 3 through 5 of CJ vs. SKT (and I feel terrible for it now, in retrospect) and even zoned out during games 4 and 6 of the SPL finals. But then I started watching a few older games that had eng commentary (Bisu vs. Savior MSL finals, Stork vs. Fantasy OSL finals), and I learned more about the game, the units, the dynamics between units, strategies, etc. By the time the Jin Air OSL finals came about, I went and could actually understand what was going on, which made it all the more exciting when the Korean commentators started yelling like crazy or the crowd started cheering and I would cheer with them. Understanding comes first; hype and excitement can follow after.
This is exactly the stuff i wanted. I'll be sure to show this to sc2 fans who dont know about the broodwar scene, keep them coming. I plan on watching them all after classes today
Epic rivalries give context to BW and all the intricacies outside of the game that define its lush history. I'll start with my 2 favorites and list some others:
Also, some interesting topics to do some research on: the Kkong line, the bonjwa line, royal roaders, legend of the fall, six dragons, the revolutionist, The Kim Carrier Curse, Leta's ppp incident, match fixing, the four kings, TBLS, booth girls, my_digital_toss(MDT), Jaehoon the PvX enigma. I would explain, but there are people on TL whose knowledge on these topics exceed mine, so i'll let them have at it. Can't think of much else. GL and enjoy!
PPPS: fpvod's from progamers. One example is Bisu's dizzying fpvod from one of the best games to date (you won't mind that the entire commentary is in korean, as you will have to use all of your concentration just to hold in the motion-sickness-induced-vomit): + Show Spoiler +
You'll have to start playing to understand. The games won't look that great until you play and understand the difficulty. Try to run 3-4 bases with good macro off 10+ production facilities and you'll understand what's going on.
People say that MBS and 12unit control groups should not matter when it comes to spectatorship, however it does. Why do you ask?Because managing 5 bases is incredibly hard, imagine having to make probes out of ~3 nexusses at the same time(with 1 click each). Then when they spawn you have to click each probe and tell them to start mining. Do we see it?No, however we do know that is being done. Losses can be attributed to fail macro and it differs the mediocre from the top players.
In Starcraft 2, Macroing is much easier, you have MBS ,automining and stuff. This makes the skill difference between mediocre players and good players much smaller. I am currently in Diamond league in SC2, and let me tell you I suck at the game. However it is so easy that anyone can do it, the easiest division on ICCup BW, the D is harder then anything I have ever played against in Starcraft 2. I got absolutely demolished by any competent player SOLELY on his mechanics when it comes to macro.
In short, the terrible UI of BroodWar in it days actually attributes to the skill gap difference between mediocre and good players in Brood war. There is no such thing in Starcraft 2, as with warpgate tech, MBS, etc it is much easier for anyone. Therefore the skill gap is much smaller.
Is this a good thing?This is open to interpretation, I will admit that I personally find SCBW mechanically too taxing alone , I can not play it at on a high level(I get crushed whenever I attempt ICCup. Bonwja's as we know it exist partially because of this. Oov was famed for his incredible Terran macro, he was known to totally change the game solely based upon his incredible impressive macro mechanics. These days in Starcraft 2 everyone is on that level. Therefore the chance of a SC2 Bonwja is reduced, is it good?maybe, personally I like Bonwja's. People that are untouchable, and when beaten by a player considered inferior it adds to the suspense, the amazingness. SC2 is still young, and therefore there won't be a incredible Bonwja for years, however with reasons stated above one can not rely on superior macro mechanic skill to do so.
Smartcasting
In SC2 we know that you have smartcasting, If you do not know what this includes. Basically if you have a group of 7 templars and click T(for storm) and storm somewhere only 1 templar will storm. In Brood war this is a different story, 7 templars and you press T on a location?7 storms will occur on that area. This is the reason why we are amazed EACH time if a Protoss storms brilliantly like Jangbi,(famed to destroy Nada's complete tankline with the use of a couple templars) Or when a person totally fails with a storm. Storms change battles, they change the tide, and they were not the only spells, Dark swarm, emp stasis. The BW flawed IU actually made it impressive for us as spectators to see something which we knew we could NEVER achieve.
It basically reflects what I think aswell. Everything was so overpowerd in Brood war, storms do a whopping 112 damage. This while Storm in Starcraft 2 does only 80 damage. With the added use of smartcasting, 112 damage storms in SC2 would Break the game so hard and I will explain why. The dreaded Ball effect it looks like this
How many times have you heard it? Balls make SC2 unfun to watch etc.
However to understand why you need to understand how the ball actually does this rather then be screamed at by BW fan people.
Simply put, balls mean clumping, clumping means reduced surface area. This affects melee units especially, zerglings have hard time engaging even a ball of stalkers in a good amount. Even if you surround say 12 stalkers with 50 zerglings, not all 50 zerglings can even attack, most of them will run around like idiots tryinig to find a hole to fit in to attack. Sure the zerglings will come out on top, however as you see melee units are much weaker in that aspect compared to Brood War. Because there was no clumping there(save from air clumping like muta's sairs etc) this made zerglings effective and neglected the massive advantage that range gain over melee partially.
Not only Zerglings suffer from this, ranged units actually do too. Units with superior range, such as the Collosus have a easy time shooting with their 9 range from the safety of their ball. However units such as the hydralisks or the roach can hardly reach the collosi, why?Because it is in a ball and is effectivly BLOCKED by stalkers, forcefields(more on this later) and units due to clumping.
This also means splash is that much more powerfull, and things such as Psi storm can not possible have 112 damage, they would not only change the tide of a battle but destroy the very fun of the game. It would be horridly overpowerd.
Now I will move on to the visuals of the ball. People always say SC2 has superior graphics, I am not 1 to deny this(hell noone sane can) but there is something different about a ball as opposed to ''loose units''. Seeing ~30-40 units shoved in a surface area so small that they only contain such a small amount of the battlefield is for me personally offputting. Why?Because seeing streams of units come from different angles is so much more exciting. Hell it does not have to be a angle for me, if they run alongside each other it is so much more fun to watch for me. If you have never watched a Protoss break a siege tank line in BW then you should. It is hordes of zealots/dragoons coming in from a WIDE SPACE, how does it work in SC2?They come in a ball.
Micro
Ah micro, the sweetest of the Starcraft gameplay, where a unit in the hands of a good player is that much more potent then in the hands of a average player. It is this more then anything which visually directly affects the spectatorship of both games. Remember when people were amazed at MarineKingPrime when he microed his marines around banelings?I too was excited, it was perhaps the first step in true SC micro as we BW fans know it. However after that I have watched countless games of SC2 and.....nothing else happens.
This outlines what I am missing in SC2 at this moment. I will tell you about the most basic and some of the most micro intensive units in SCBW
The excitement that Brood war brings has alot to do with flawed AI and I will tell you why. I will tell you about the interesting units that Brood war has opposed to Starcraft 2.
The Reaver, Vulture and Scourge.
Reavers are very interesting units this, has to do with the fact that the scarab that it shoots is retarded. If you have ever watched BW you know that a scarab can dud alot of the times, however It can also cause HUGE damage to the opponent(read, ~8 workers dead in 1 shot). This adds to alot of suspense, will the Reaver kill or not?
Now we come to the Reaver equivalent that Protoss has gained, the Collosi
The Collosi is are impressive units to see (bzzzzzzzzzt), it is visually impressive but it is practically a boring unit, it attacks and that is about it. You can not micro anything with it.
Another unit which brings interest to the game is the Vulture, as you might know a vulture has spider mines. These bad boys are horridly overpowerd when used correctly, as the have a incredibly high splash damage and vultures come with them when upgraded, 3 of them to be exact. But they can turn the tide of a game incredibly fast, Normally vultures can not destroy dragoons at all. They do 25% damage against dragoons, a pitifull amount. However with proper micro and mine placement, a group of vultures can take out the unit it supposedly is countered by. And to counter that, a group of well controlled dragoons can take out each of the dangerous mines placed around them.
This clip says it all, it is micro from both sides and the one who does it best comes out on top, it is how it should be. The better player should win based upon his unit control, not his unit control alone though but amazing things can happen with vultures and alot of different units in the hands of good players.
Another example is the unit we know as the Scourge, these bastards are flying suicide units, like Banelings. And they could be avoided with micro or do tremendous damage with proper micro. I have said before that MKP splitting was something which resembled Brood war, now check the clip below
This was amazing to see, this shuttle juke. What made it more amazing is what he saved, he saved a shuttle with 2 high templars, some of the most costly units in the Protoss arsenal, Because it is so hard to macro in Starcraft 1, the units are much less likely to be replaced and need to be saved at all costs. The zerg their scourges are the buggers which are amazing to watch for both fails and success.
Supernovamaniac has elaborated a bit more about how amazing this and I will put his quote here if you want to read up on it as he explains it quite well. + Show Spoiler +
On March 09 2011 09:11 supernovamaniac wrote: With scourges chasing from behind, you can only turn at a certain angle to avoid the scourges hitting the shuttle from the back.
Though most players don't have to do this, Kal had to avoid the scourges coming in from the right top. Now, if this was the middle of the map, Kal can run away right bottom and keep his shuttle safe. However, there was no chance for Kal to do this as they were on the bottom of the map.
One wrong click in that video and the shuttle have exploded. Kal found the perfect angle to escape those scourges.
Now imagine for a second that we live in a dream world where scourges have entered SC2 through a incredibly weird dimension. The question is as a Protoss, when scourges fly near my deathball, can I micro my Collosi away from the Scourges while simutaniously targeting the scourges(and not the army that comes with it) to save my collosi. After which I proceed to destroy the Zerg army based upon my superior micro control? We can only hope.
I like OPs like this. Making the effort to understand BW as an SC2 fan. Very much appreciated I'll add vods when I find them, meanwhile have fun watching those posted above, you'll enjoy it.
I think you have to play BW to fully appreciate what you see when progamers play. The level of mastery compared to even your average competent player is just indescribable. It's like nothing you will experience in SC2 or any other game for that matter. The more you know about the game, the more impressive their play becomes
What makes this game awesome is not the amazing plays or games. The OP can watch all those amazing plays and never understand the awesomeness of the game because he doens't know how hard is to pull those things off.
In sc2 once you saw Boxer EMP a whole army you can go and do the same with a few clics just as good as he does.
But how many ppl can go and lock down 10 Battlecruisers or blind 6 observers in BW? even after watching boxer doing it?
HOw many ppl can have Jangbi like storms??
In BW it is not enough to plan doing it. Execution is so hard that when you see a perfect play like those mentioned your mind just blows of the sky.
EPT
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