EPTBisu, Jaedong, Jangbi, Fantasy to Blizzcon 2011 - Page 86
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:44 ArvickHero wrote: the community has and is still coming up with the support that Blizzard refuses to give. 3rd party patches fix the color issues, and there has been a patch in the works to solve the crux of the freezing problem (which there are stopgap solutions to anyways, like assigning core affinities and such). The community provided BW with playable maps when Blizzard's were just complete shit, and provided a REAL ladder when Blizzard's ladder was a complete joke. When hacks run rampant in bnet because of Blizzard's refusal to patch and police, the community came up with its own measures to successfully fight the hackers. BW has done just fine without Blizzard's support. Of course. It will always be possible to play bw. There are people playing SNES games today. But if you fail to see how this stifles, and eventually smothers completely, the game as a sport, there's no insight I can give you to make you realize it. Hell, even now people can't get into it for something as simple as port forwarding. Edit: to clarify, I don't think bw will disappear, and I think some sort of pro scene may survive, like many other weird "sports" where a (relatively) very small group of enthusiasts are super passionate about it and the rest of the world is completely oblivious to it. I also think most of the people in these forums would be completely fine with this, me included. But bw on television, or in stadiums? It can't go on for much longer. No way. | ||
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dcsoda
United States583 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:33 Sandermatt wrote: F Slasher just said, that he has information from Blizzard, that they were invited, along with KesPa officials to show them how big SC2 is in the west. He also said that they were shocked by how big the crowd and enthusiasm was. However I am not sure how reliable Slasher is. I think he was referring to this article http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/26/why-blizzard-invited-the-worlds-best-starcraft-brood-war-players-to-blizzcon-2011/ It sounds pretty nebulous so far but it sounds like Blizzard and Kespa will be working towards an agreement on SC2, although he said he'd be surprised to see this happen before GOM loses its exclusive rights at the end of 2012. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:49 fencer wrote: This sounds interesting. Did Losira actually play with just one hand? Source? His keyboard was malfunctioning so he had to play with only a mouse during most of the series. iNcontrol did take game 2 off of Losira, though it was probably one of Losira's no-keyboard games. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:36 Eishi_Ki wrote: I always wanted to ask, if these two games, BW and SC2 were made with the same engine, by the same company, with the same graphics and released on the same day, which would make a better e-sport? The answer's pretty obvious but I know what kind of can that would open with some people heh. That's all irrelevant though, as sad as I am to admit it, things will tend towards the newer game and in the end, e-sports will always be the winner which I suppose is a good thing. Let it be known though, Broodwar was the first. Never to be forgotten. probably brood war considering how many many many people constantly complain about how they don't have their units from bw? | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:36 Eishi_Ki wrote: I always wanted to ask, if these two games, BW and SC2 were made with the same engine, by the same company, with the same graphics and released on the same day, which would make a better e-sport? The answer's pretty obvious but I know what kind of can that would open with some people heh. That's all irrelevant though, as sad as I am to admit it, things will tend towards the newer game and in the end, e-sports will always be the winner which I suppose is a good thing. Let it be known though, Broodwar was the first. Never to be forgotten. Depends.. which engine? SC2 engine or BW engine from 1998? BW units just wouldn't work as well in the sc2 engine. Goon AI would make toss OP. Ling surrounds would make zerg OP. Easy macroing for Terran would make it OP. It would just be a whole different game. I haven't played Maverik's SC2BW mod a lot, but that's how I imagine it is... Also, Brood War is a lot simpler of a game than Star2. There is just SO MUCH you have to do in sc2. Multi building select and the 1a syndrome make sc2 mechanically easier, but there is a lot to think about when you play sc2 (especially with all the spell casters). Its more of a mental game. BW is pretty much figured out. You know what to expect in each mu as the game has been out for like 12 years.. You get the occasional curve ball, but most games are fairly standard. Its cool to wonder though.. Kinda like how WoL vs HotS vs LoV is going to be whenever blizzard decides to finish up the games  | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:47 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Depends.. which engine? SC2 engine or BW engine from 1998? BW units just wouldn't work as well in the sc2 engine. Goon AI would make toss OP. Ling surrounds would make zerg OP. Easy macroing for Terran would make it OP. It would just be a whole different game. I haven't played Maverik's SC2BW mod a lot, but that's how I imagine it is... Also, Brood War is a lot simpler of a game than Star2. There is just SO MUCH you have to do in sc2. Multi building select and the 1a syndrome make sc2 mechanically easier, but there is a lot to think about when you play sc2 (especially with all the spell casters). Its more of a mental game. BW is pretty much figured out. You know what to expect in each mu as the game has been out for like 12 years.. You get the occasional curve ball, but most games are fairly standard. Its cool to wonder though.. Kinda like how WoL vs HotS vs LoV is going to be whenever blizzard decides to finish up the games But the thing is, being OP is what made BW Balance. It's not the game, guys but the players that makes or breaks the game. That's why SC2 fans wants TOP BW players to switch. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:47 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Depends.. which engine? SC2 engine or BW engine from 1998? BW units just wouldn't work as well in the sc2 engine. Goon AI would make toss OP. Ling surrounds would make zerg OP. Easy macroing for Terran would make it OP. It would just be a whole different game. I haven't played Maverik's SC2BW mod a lot, but that's how I imagine it is... Also, Brood War is a lot simpler of a game than Star2. There is just SO MUCH you have to do in sc2. Multi building select and the 1a syndrome make sc2 mechanically easier, but there is a lot to think about when you play sc2 (especially with all the spell casters). Its more of a mental game. BW is pretty much figured out. You know what to expect in each mu as the game has been out for like 12 years.. You get the occasional curve ball, but most games are fairly standard. Its cool to wonder though.. Kinda like how WoL vs HotS vs LoV is going to be whenever blizzard decides to finish up the games you can go ahead and take off your oz tag if you think BW takes any less thought than SC2 | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:04 ArvickHero wrote: you can go ahead and take off your oz tag if you think BW takes any less thought than SC2 Fo real maybe at the D-/D level where every player is trying to learn 1 build its pretty simple but at the pro level there are a ton of subtle things that we never see that actually make a difference.. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:29 Megaliskuu wrote: Fo real maybe at the D-/D level where every player is trying to learn 1 build its pretty simple but at the pro level there are a ton of subtle things that we never see that actually make a difference.. The lack of comprehensible commentary makes a big difference here. There are tons of strategic decisions going on in every game, but top pros are all so good that you can easily miss them, since if neither player is making mistakes they cancel out. I seem to remember the TSL commentary being pretty good about pointing these things out, though. | ||
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sc2CruSha
United States105 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:04 ArvickHero wrote: you can go ahead and take off your oz tag if you think BW takes any less thought than SC2 If this was facebook I would 'like' your post :D (last guy ofc) | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:29 Megaliskuu wrote: Fo real maybe at the D-/D level where every player is trying to learn 1 build its pretty simple but at the pro level there are a ton of subtle things that we never see that actually make a difference.. That's kinda what I meant.. I just feel like sc2 is turning into what many people call 'gimmicky' play. Too many spell casters and such. It just allows for a lot of different kinds of endgames.. Terran in sc2 has so many possible openings, tech choices and branches.. Decisions like larva inject vs creep spread. Scan vs mule. These can make a huge difference in the early game.. BW is just a lot harder mechanically.. tvz example: must stim, spread out, irradiate defiler, pull back before scourage hit, siege up and pull back in time before the zerg surrounds, burrows lurkers, clone scourage and cast dark swarms. Doing all that in sc2 is 100x times easier as you can just have everything hotkeyed nicely and tab through the units to cast the spells and such. In sc2 all units seem to have something special they can do.. senteries ff+guardian shield, blink stalkers, ravens pdd, infestor fungal+np+infested terran, ghost emp+snipe.. it just makes things more complicated. And obviously I'm talking about low level play.. Not how 1 drone makes the world of a difference in zvz.. I'm talking about when I sit down I know exactly what to expect from my opponent when I scout a ffe or a super lat lair or an early gas from a terran. It all comes down to the number of units that the game has. More units = more unit compostions = more complicated play.. Now hots is gonna complicate things even more and the whole metagame will change again.. BW meta game only changes slightly as time goes on (like bio -> mech tvz or the new mass wraith style in tvt).. Well until another Bisu comes along and changes a whole match up. Edit: Gha.. Don't want to start an bw vs sc2 flame  I've just been watching too much sc2 while waiting for proleague / osl to start up again..... Just got me thinking :| | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:59 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: That's kinda what I meant.. I just feel like sc2 is turning into what many people call 'gimmicky' play. Too many spell casters and such. It just allows for a lot of different kinds of endgames.. Terran in sc2 has so many possible openings, tech choices and branches.. Decisions like larva inject vs creep spread. Scan vs mule. These can make a huge difference in the early game.. BW is just a lot harder mechanically.. tvz example: must stim, spread out, irradiate defiler, pull back before scourage hit, siege up and pull back in time before the zerg surrounds, burrows lurkers, clone scourage and cast dark swarms. Doing all that in sc2 is 100x times easier as you can just have everything hotkeyed nicely and tab through the units to cast the spells and such. In sc2 all units seem to have something special they can do.. senteries ff+guardian shield, blink stalkers, ravens pdd, infestor fungal+np+infested terran, ghost emp+snipe.. it just makes things more complicated. And obviously I'm talking about low level play.. Not how 1 drone makes the world of a difference in zvz.. I'm talking about when I sit down I know exactly what to expect from my opponent when I scout a ffe or a super lat lair or an early gas from a terran. It all comes down to the number of units that the game has. More units = more unit compostions = more complicated play.. Now hots is gonna complicate things even more and the whole metagame will change again.. BW meta game only changes slightly as time goes on (like bio -> mech tvz or the new mass wraith style in tvt).. Well until another Bisu comes along and changes a whole match up. arguable that even at the lower levels its more strategically chaotic than anything. In my experiences of laddering, I have been hit by a retarded number of incredibly strange and diverse strategies and had to use my brain in order to react in a semi-optimal way. You don't HAVE to play like the pros, and many ppl at the D-C range choose not to and develop their own wacky-ass strategies. Mirror matchups are where whoever has the greater strategic understanding can usually win, at all levels .. even at my worst mechanical shape, I can outsmart many D/D+ and some C- Protosses simply because I have the greater understanding of how to play the matchup. Unless that's not mental enough for you? Also you say that SC2 has a lot of spellcasters .. so what? That doesn't make the game any more strategic or mental. BW has a good number of spellcasters too, and some of them are fairly underused .. perhaps if you wanted to you could start incorporating ghosts in TvP? or DA in PvT .. BW can be just as dynamic and fun for those non-pros who enjoy creating strategies as it can be in SC2. And as the level of play gets higher, BW arguably has more strategic depth and mental gaming because of how much the strategy of the game has developed. 1 year of strategic development does not trump 10+ years' worth of strategic development. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On October 28 2011 09:41 konadora wrote: sc2 is just more popular because it's easier to play and "feel pro" about it Yeah the missleading ranking system with shiny league badges and achivements Blizzard put in so you won't feel as bad as you actually are makes wonders. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On October 28 2011 10:06 Termit wrote: Yeah the missleading ranking system with shiny league badges and achivements Blizzard put in so you won't feel as bad as you actually are makes wonders. or the fact that the ladder ranking babysits you hiding your loses so you dont get all sad  | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On October 28 2011 10:22 fabiano wrote: or the fact that the ladder ranking babysits you hiding your loses so you dont get all sad Need to man up and show something like this on the main page: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/ladderfear/logonscreen.jpg) | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
On October 28 2011 09:11 ArvickHero wrote: arguable that even at the lower levels its more strategically chaotic than anything. In my experiences of laddering, I have been hit by a retarded number of incredibly strange and diverse strategies and had to use my brain in order to react in a semi-optimal way. You don't HAVE to play like the pros, and many ppl at the D-C range choose not to and develop their own wacky-ass strategies. Mirror matchups are where whoever has the greater strategic understanding can usually win, at all levels .. even at my worst mechanical shape, I can outsmart many D/D+ and some C- Protosses simply because I have the greater understanding of how to play the matchup. Unless that's not mental enough for you? Also you say that SC2 has a lot of spellcasters .. so what? That doesn't make the game any more strategic or mental. BW has a good number of spellcasters too, and some of them are fairly underused .. perhaps if you wanted to you could start incorporating ghosts in TvP? or DA in PvT .. BW can be just as dynamic and fun for those non-pros who enjoy creating strategies as it can be in SC2. And as the level of play gets higher, BW arguably has more strategic depth and mental gaming because of how much the strategy of the game has developed. 1 year of strategic development does not trump 10+ years' worth of strategic development. Your miss-understanding me. I am no brood war vet. I started following the proscene only because I enjoyed watching the Violtak account and those english commentaries.. This was in '09 when a lot of the old school payers were not as dominant (Reach, Nada, July, Boxer, etc.)... I have the OZ tag cause I followed JD very closely during that time and watched him win his OSLs and then get knocked out of the ro8 to Flash. I watched Flash turn into the monster that he is now. That's why I follow bw. I love the players, the play, the game, and I am at awe at watching the pros do what I can't. (What I'm trying to say is that when watching a vod, I know in theory what player A should do against player B, but if I sit at the computer, I cannot actually do it. Watching a pro perform out those crazy moves is what truly brings me back everyday to watch this beautiful game... like every time I watch JD have perfect muta control my mind is fucking blown.)I do not have that much knowledge of old games. I know of all the old school players and exactly what they did midseason 2004 or something.. I just watched all the key finals and games and have an understanding of what they are known for. Like iloveOOv. I know he is a macro monster, but I never followed him the way I am following Flash. Flash is also a good example actually. In my mind, he is not the once ex-cheesy always 14 cc player he was back in the day. He is the final boss. I know he use to be a cheesy scrub, but thats not the way I see him. Boxer and Nada are probably the only exceptions, cause I heard their names before I got into sc. Am I sad that I didn't start following the game until this late, yeah I am. I feel like I missed a lot of esports culture... Trust me when I say, I love BW just as much as you. Regarding your comment 1 year of strategic development does not trump 10+ years' worth of strategic development It is not a matter of trumping one another. I am not looking at the quality of strategy. Obviously BW is a much deeper game. Anyone that has followed both scenes can tell you that.. I'm just saying that because of the lack of 12 years of development we see a lot more strategic variance at the top level.. The sc2 games are just unpredictable. There is just MORE that can happen because the optimal strategies haven't been fine tuned to the level that BW is at.Its like chess. Currently, the first 20 moves or so has been memorized by Grand Masters just because they know the most optimal openings. Games start varying and getting interesting only after the midgame is ending and lategame is beginning. I met a chess instructor at my uni who told me this..... I don't follow chess, but he was ridculously good (like has beaten Bobby Fisher before) so I take his word for this. Personally I think sc2 foreign scene will die out in 5 years (I say 5 because the expansions will give sc2 more life.. also by foreign scene I mean having Major events like MLG with THAT many spectators..) Also regarding konadora comment sc2 is just more popular because it's easier to play and "feel pro" about it Exactly. I feel pro when I play sc2. We all do. Made diamond season 1 with my eyes closed just cause all I had to do was keep my money down and attack at multiple places at once. On iCcup however its a whole different story. I can barely touch D+ to save my life... But every loss I get on iccup I feel is just due to the fact that I am just no fast enough. I can't multitask at that level. I can't spread my marines out properly vs lurkers. My money sky rockets when I get into an engagement.. In sc2 I can keep it down at all times just because I only really have to keep track of max 6 hotkeys instead of 10. It makes me feel like a better player, and allows for me to think more about the state of the game. In BW I'm more worried about what I am doing than what my opponent is doing. Maybe thats just because I suck so much dick at the game.. Or maybe its just me.. Or maybe its that shining master's or diamond emblem vs seeing a red D by my name. Sigh. I guess for me it really comes down to the fact that I understand BW a hell of a lot more than I can execute it.. The gap is a lot smaller in sc2... There is just more unexplored territory with the newer game. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On October 28 2011 10:30 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: I guess for me it really comes down to the fact that I understand BW a hell of a lot more than I can execute it.. The gap is a lot smaller in sc2... There is just more unexplored territory with the newer game. You should've said that from the very start. I do understand your point. I also have the same trouble you have, keeping my money down, but that's one of the things I can look forward to. Improving on macro and multitask is just as sweet (if not, more so) than doing stutter-step micro in SC2 and keeping my money down by spamming 6a. | ||
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