On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play. bw once had an international scene but everyone outside of korea jumped ship after sc2 was released because it was pointless to compete with the korean progamers who were vastly superior to everyone else in terms of skill. the existence of a large skill gap between the koreans and everyone else demonstrates bw's extremely high skill ceiling, unlike sc2's. why do you think all the mediocre bw players (nestea, mvp, mc, rest of world) switched to sc2 but the rest of the progamers have not? why is it that bw's popularity in korea still far surpasses sc2's? maybe its because they can look past the dated graphics of the game and see it's superior design underneath. bw's prominence for the last 10+ years shows that it is a near perfectly balanced game. sc2 may have passed bw on the popularity scale, but that does not necessarily translate to how good/perfect the game actually is.
the perfect game is all a matter of perspective, i feel like a lot of brood war fans just really hipster nerds and don't want to be mainstream. The game may be more balanced and requires more skills but the graphics, accessibility, and better casters are with SC2 in my opinion. You saying the game is perfect is just as arbitrary as it would be if I said the game of golf is perfect. It way be perfect to a perfect game to me but it's a matter of perspective with so many more factors than balance or "game design".
Also the top progamers from brood war haven't switched over because the money isn't there. If there was a million dollar a month tournament for sc2 i'm positive they wouldn't stay in brood war just because of the "superior design underneath". I get the nostalgia but i think you went a bit overboard.
"Heh, if there were monthly million dollar tournies they would switch for sure!"
Nice insight there, buddy.
Now why don't you explain why there's no money in Korea's current SC2 scene.
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play. bw once had an international scene but everyone outside of korea jumped ship after sc2 was released because it was pointless to compete with the korean progamers who were vastly superior to everyone else in terms of skill. the existence of a large skill gap between the koreans and everyone else demonstrates bw's extremely high skill ceiling, unlike sc2's. why do you think all the mediocre bw players (nestea, mvp, mc, rest of world) switched to sc2 but the rest of the progamers have not? why is it that bw's popularity in korea still far surpasses sc2's? maybe its because they can look past the dated graphics of the game and see it's superior design underneath. bw's prominence for the last 10+ years shows that it is a near perfectly balanced game. sc2 may have passed bw on the popularity scale, but that does not necessarily translate to how good/perfect the game actually is.
the perfect game is all a matter of perspective, i feel like a lot of brood war fans just really hipster nerds and don't want to be mainstream. The game may be more balanced and requires more skills but the graphics, accessibility, and better casters are with SC2 in my opinion. You saying the game is perfect is just as arbitrary as it would be if I said the game of golf is perfect. It way be perfect to a perfect game to me but it's a matter of perspective with so many more factors than balance or "game design".
Also the top progamers from brood war haven't switched over because the money isn't there. If there was a million dollar a month tournament for sc2 i'm positive they wouldn't stay in brood war just because of the "superior design underneath". I get the nostalgia but i think you went a bit overboard.
"Heh, if there were monthly million dollar tournies they would switch for sure!"
Nice insight there, buddy.
Now why don't you explain why there's no money in Korea's current SC2 scene.
Also disagree with his point on better casters. I find SC2 commentary unbearable as the groundless hype over inane things is so thick you can smell it. Though it might not be the casters fault... just listen to tastosis casting BW and you can feel their genuine excitement over gameplay rather than "im so hyped right now".
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play. bw once had an international scene but everyone outside of korea jumped ship after sc2 was released because it was pointless to compete with the korean progamers who were vastly superior to everyone else in terms of skill. the existence of a large skill gap between the koreans and everyone else demonstrates bw's extremely high skill ceiling, unlike sc2's. why do you think all the mediocre bw players (nestea, mvp, mc, rest of world) switched to sc2 but the rest of the progamers have not? why is it that bw's popularity in korea still far surpasses sc2's? maybe its because they can look past the dated graphics of the game and see it's superior design underneath. bw's prominence for the last 10+ years shows that it is a near perfectly balanced game. sc2 may have passed bw on the popularity scale, but that does not necessarily translate to how good/perfect the game actually is.
the perfect game is all a matter of perspective, i feel like a lot of brood war fans just really hipster nerds and don't want to be mainstream. The game may be more balanced and requires more skills but the graphics, accessibility, and better casters are with SC2 in my opinion. You saying the game is perfect is just as arbitrary as it would be if I said the game of golf is perfect. It way be perfect to a perfect game to me but it's a matter of perspective with so many more factors than balance or "game design".
Also the top progamers from brood war haven't switched over because the money isn't there. If there was a million dollar a month tournament for sc2 i'm positive they wouldn't stay in brood war just because of the "superior design underneath". I get the nostalgia but i think you went a bit overboard.
"Heh, if there were monthly million dollar tournies they would switch for sure!"
Nice insight there, buddy.
Now why don't you explain why there's no money in Korea's current SC2 scene.
Also disagree with his point on better casters. I find SC2 commentary unbearable as the groundless hype over inane things is so thick you can smell it. Though it might not be the casters fault... just listen to tastosis casting BW and you can feel their genuine excitement over gameplay rather than "im so hyped right now".
Its actually kind of odd how much better Tastosis was in BW, you would have expected them to improve over the years, well Artosis did in the play by play, but the analysis and enthusiasm just isn't there anymore.
On October 19 2011 17:31 marttorn wrote: Because I don't feel like participating in all the BW/SC2 nonsense, I'll just say it like it is:
When Bisu, dong, jangbi and fanta arrive at the blizzcon they will be in big, disneyland-esque costumes of themselves. Then they take off the large head of the costume, and the players are revealed to not in fact be the fantastic BW players, BUT:
LOL imagine that, if all the ancient original gamers turned up... Nobody would recognise them XD
And better English casters in SC2? 0.o just more experienced, and with more Tech help behind them. People are coming through the BW scene pretty much from the grass roots, to replace those who had been doing what they do for about a decade. There's a learning curve.
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play. bw once had an international scene but everyone outside of korea jumped ship after sc2 was released because it was pointless to compete with the korean progamers who were vastly superior to everyone else in terms of skill. the existence of a large skill gap between the koreans and everyone else demonstrates bw's extremely high skill ceiling, unlike sc2's. why do you think all the mediocre bw players (nestea, mvp, mc, rest of world) switched to sc2 but the rest of the progamers have not? why is it that bw's popularity in korea still far surpasses sc2's? maybe its because they can look past the dated graphics of the game and see it's superior design underneath. bw's prominence for the last 10+ years shows that it is a near perfectly balanced game. sc2 may have passed bw on the popularity scale, but that does not necessarily translate to how good/perfect the game actually is.
the perfect game is all a matter of perspective, i feel like a lot of brood war fans just really hipster nerds and don't want to be mainstream. The game may be more balanced and requires more skills but the graphics, accessibility, and better casters are with SC2 in my opinion. You saying the game is perfect is just as arbitrary as it would be if I said the game of golf is perfect. It way be perfect to a perfect game to me but it's a matter of perspective with so many more factors than balance or "game design".
Also the top progamers from brood war haven't switched over because the money isn't there. If there was a million dollar a month tournament for sc2 i'm positive they wouldn't stay in brood war just because of the "superior design underneath". I get the nostalgia but i think you went a bit overboard.
Ah yes, graphics, accessibility, and better English casters are just as important for a competitive game as balance and game design
On October 19 2011 17:19 SolidMustard wrote: And then they're gonna switch and be terrible at SC2 ^^
hope you trolling there
Obviously . Because they won't switch, not because they would be good.
I'm quite convinced that required skills are just not the same. I lol hard at every sc2-hater explaining how BW requires a 10,000 more skills when it's just not true. You just don't have to use APM on the same thing, SC2 is more about game-sense and mind games and less about mechanics than BW.
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play.
Making a game more accessible does not mean to "dumb it down." To call it "dumbed down" sounds flame-inciting, as if it is a dumb game or made for dumb players.
Even though it is easier to play, it is not easier to win.
On October 19 2011 17:19 SolidMustard wrote: And then they're gonna switch and be terrible at SC2 ^^
hope you trolling there
Obviously . Because they won't switch, not because they would be good.
I'm quite convinced that required skills are just not the same. I lol hard at every sc2-hater explaining how BW requires a 10,000 more skills when it's just not true. You just don't have to use APM on the same thing, SC2 is more about game-sense and mind games and less about mechanics than BW.
So, yeah.. half-trolling actually ^^
Like many people before you, you completely underestimate the strategy part of BW. People who think more strategy, decision making and game sense is needed in SC2 than BW at the moment just have no idea of what they're talking about =) Edit : fuck, I wasted 1500 on that and worse, I'm a queen instead of a lurker
On October 19 2011 17:19 SolidMustard wrote: And then they're gonna switch and be terrible at SC2 ^^
hope you trolling there
Obviously . Because they won't switch, not because they would be good.
I'm quite convinced that required skills are just not the same. I lol hard at every sc2-hater explaining how BW requires a 10,000 more skills when it's just not true. You just don't have to use APM on the same thing, SC2 is more about game-sense and mind games and less about mechanics than BW.
So, yeah.. half-trolling actually ^^
s-class players are s-class not only because of their superior mechanics but because they combine it was game sense and decision making and micro.
being good at the last three aspects would give you a huge edge in sc2, even if mechanics are less important.
forgg just beat taeja and tassadar in his first real matches, for example. he displayed excellent decision making especially in tvts to beat taeja. years of good bw skills and training will have a tangible influence on how successful switchers will do in sc2. and even then forgg has been out of bw for over a year.
On October 19 2011 17:19 SolidMustard wrote: And then they're gonna switch and be terrible at SC2 ^^
hope you trolling there
Obviously . Because they won't switch, not because they would be good.
I'm quite convinced that required skills are just not the same. I lol hard at every sc2-hater explaining how BW requires a 10,000 more skills when it's just not true. You just don't have to use APM on the same thing, SC2 is more about game-sense and mind games and less about mechanics than BW.
So, yeah.. half-trolling actually ^^
Like many people before you, you completely underestimate the strategy part of BW. People who think more strategy, decision making and game sense is needed in SC2 than BW at the moment just have no idea of what they're talking about =) Edit : fuck, I wasted 1500 on that and worse, I'm a queen instead of a lurker
==" Yeah cause MVP and MC were great strategic minds and their mechanics held them back in BW sure........
TBH i feel like all of those posts should just be responded with a link to the elephant in the room final edit. link
SolidMustard you should educate yourself with Ver's God of the Battlefield final edit if you want to be less wrong.
well, i don't know about what you suggest, i was just responding to him saying that s-class bw pros, if they switched over now, wouldn't be very good. a top zerg like hydra, as nada said (well he didn't say hydra), would absolutely rip up the scene if they switched right now.
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
But what if the person who engineered the oranges is the same one who created apples and spent 10 years studying his apples and then invented oranges to emulate everything that made apples successful and marketed his oranges to ride on the tasty reputation of his amazing apples. And then when oranges became popular, the fans of oranges came to the apple stand every time an advertisement about apples was placed at the front of the market and started telling apple buyers that oranges are the future and soon enough, nobody will eat or make apples and that anyone who thinks to the contrary is in denial. And the apple lovers are just like, dude gtfo and leave us alone and let us love our apples. Apples take more skill to eat anyway.
So yeah, that is just my general observation of your average fruit market.
On October 19 2011 09:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't anyone get bored of this "mine is better than yours" crap?
Why can't we just enjoy it for what it is and stop getting all offended if someone wants to see more of "x" game being played or more of "x" players playing "x" game.
Its so hard to find any real discussion on this interesting topic through the pages of horrifically biased and slanted arguments with no real end or basis in the first place.
BW is the best BW game that ever came out and SC2 is at best, 2nd place in terms of BW-likeness. Although, SC2 is the best SC2 game yet and BW, now lets be honest, is probably only 2nd best in terms of SC2-likeness. Now clearly if SC2 had more BW, it wouldn't really matter because as long as it was even 1% SC2, it would never reach pure BW, and thus be 2nd best BW. Same goes for BW gaining more SC2-ness.
So if BW is stuck being BW and SC2 is stuck being SC2, lets all agree that BW can not equal SC2, if and only if, SC2 is not equal to BW. Greater than or Less than is meaningless because its like saying "I have more apples then you have oranges so I am better....". No you don't, you just wasted all your money and time on buying more apples.
Ah who am I kidding, as angry as people get, I am sure they enjoy arguing whose game is better. Thinking of strategies and arguments to counter another persons..refining your pessimism for the other view points...editing responses to sound more sophisticated. Its the argument you enjoy, not the win.
You make the false assumption that SC2 could never pass up BW.
Which I believe SC2 WILL pass BW, because SC2 has already passed BW Internationally.
Plus, Blizzard has 2 more chances to perfect the game.
yeah sc2 passed bw internationally basically because the game is dumbed down and easier to play. bw once had an international scene but everyone outside of korea jumped ship after sc2 was released because it was pointless to compete with the korean progamers who were vastly superior to everyone else in terms of skill. the existence of a large skill gap between the koreans and everyone else demonstrates bw's extremely high skill ceiling, unlike sc2's. why do you think all the mediocre bw players (nestea, mvp, mc, rest of world) switched to sc2 but the rest of the progamers have not? why is it that bw's popularity in korea still far surpasses sc2's? maybe its because they can look past the dated graphics of the game and see it's superior design underneath. bw's prominence for the last 10+ years shows that it is a near perfectly balanced game. sc2 may have passed bw on the popularity scale, but that does not necessarily translate to how good/perfect the game actually is.
the perfect game is all a matter of perspective, i feel like a lot of brood war fans just really hipster nerds and don't want to be mainstream. The game may be more balanced and requires more skills but the graphics, accessibility, and better casters are with SC2 in my opinion. You saying the game is perfect is just as arbitrary as it would be if I said the game of golf is perfect. It way be perfect to a perfect game to me but it's a matter of perspective with so many more factors than balance or "game design".
Also the top progamers from brood war haven't switched over because the money isn't there. If there was a million dollar a month tournament for sc2 i'm positive they wouldn't stay in brood war just because of the "superior design underneath". I get the nostalgia but i think you went a bit overboard.
"Heh, if there were monthly million dollar tournies they would switch for sure!"
Nice insight there, buddy.
Now why don't you explain why there's no money in Korea's current SC2 scene.
Also disagree with his point on better casters. I find SC2 commentary unbearable as the groundless hype over inane things is so thick you can smell it. Though it might not be the casters fault... just listen to tastosis casting BW and you can feel their genuine excitement over gameplay rather than "im so hyped right now".
Its actually kind of odd how much better Tastosis was in BW, you would have expected them to improve over the years, well Artosis did in the play by play, but the analysis and enthusiasm just isn't there anymore.
Edit: This thread has just become another Broodwar elitist bashfest of SC2 and vice versa. Guess It happens with every bit of BW news thats featured on TL, but oh well guess that's what will always happen when the community is so split.
EPT
