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Locked
United States4182 Posts
(except i don't feel that strongly just to help correct) On May 04 2005 12:16 exalted wrote: I"ve seen nada get ship armor and vehicle weapons as his upgrades (apparently armor >> ship weapons?) i always thought that was for dropships but maybe someone else knows a different reason? | ||
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Painbringer
Norway446 Posts
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Grass.nS)
United States121 Posts
On May 04 2005 09:33 Day[9] wrote: Protoss +3 ground attack: zealots kill mines in 1 hit I'm pretty sure +2 ground attack allows zealots to kill mines in 1 hit since mines only have 20 hp | ||
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ihatett
United States2289 Posts
On May 04 2005 15:18 Painbringer wrote: corsair vs muta, attack for corsair armor for muta. Also if you like me have temps standing around long it`s nice to get the 50+ energy, since then you get 3 storms with full emergy instead of two. they're also able to storm sooner, which is more important imo | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On May 04 2005 11:04 FireBlast! wrote: +1 armour means Zerglings take 3 hits instead of 2 from Photon Cannons. actually, 1 armor means minus 2 damage. 20 damage x 2 from cannons = 40 damage - 2 = 38. health of lings is 35. you need 3 carapace upgrades to take 3 hits from cannons. zlots need weapon 2 to kill mines in 1 hit. 16 + 4 damage = 20. 20 health for mines. all basic unit upgrades are essential. marine lings zlots. carrier armor upgrade imo is really good vs goliaths because goliaths have that freaken 2x damage type. reduces a lot of damage. 0 upgrades means 4 armor. 4 armor means -8 damage. 7 armor means -14 damage from the goliaths. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32280 Posts
On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: I dont know why exactly but 2+ metal makes tanks a million times better vs goon/zealot (I dont think there's any differance in the amount of hits it takes to kill them but yeah I consider it a critical upgrade). Its difficult to see the "critical" in this upgrades but as when you get +2 plus tanks splash its really makes battle a lot easier TvP. | ||
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Capn
United States539 Posts
On May 04 2005 18:13 ahk-gosu wrote: actually, 1 armor means minus 2 damage. 20 damage x 2 from cannons = 40 damage - 2 = 38. health of lings is 35. you need 3 carapace upgrades to take 3 hits from cannons. Wouldn't that be (20 - 2) = 18 x 2 = 36 then? Which would still kill a ling in two hits. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 04 2005 11:26 NonY wrote: hohoho +1 infantry armor for TvP makes DT's take 2 hits to kill a marine instead of 1. of course when protoss gets +1 weapons he is set. but usually when terran goes infantry, toss has goons/zealots and then uses all gas to rush to templars once he sees the mass rax. in other words, the upgrade is useful for the first push but eventually the toss will get +1 Marines can also take one more hit from goons I think ;o 5 instead of 4. Hm, 1+ carapace is of course vital, also makes dts take two hits to kill drones, which is good. Aside from the obvious, ie making lings die in 3 instead of 2 hits from 1+ zealots ;p | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 04 2005 13:43 lil.sis wrote: AHHHH NO YOU ARE WRONG okay i hate to be grammar nazi, but when people use 'affect' instead of 'effect' is my biggest pet peeve in the entire world, so, allow me to differentiate between affect and effect. in this context, affect is a verb, effect is a noun. Through the action of affecting, a subject produces an effect on an object. Your incorrect post affected me. This crappy post is the resultant effect. It has nothing to do with the mind or anything, random objects can "affect" as well. For example: The warm temperature affected the ice cube, causing it to melt. I hope this helps to clarify. I'm sorry I had to do this. But you guys really have no idea how much it bothers me to see this misused lol, it's ridiculous edit: ridiculous how much it bothers me, not that people misuse it ahh here is a lovely usage note from dictionary.com regarding effect the verb: Usage Note: Affect and effect have no senses in common. As a verb affect is most commonly used in the sense of “to influence” (how smoking affects health). Effect means “to bring about or execute”: layoffs designed to effect savings. Thus the sentence These measures may affect savings could imply that the measures may reduce savings that have already been realized, whereas These measures may effect savings implies that the measures will cause new savings to come about. but i digress, on topic, i like +1 air armor for wraiths in tvt, they take 7 hits from a missile turret instead of 6 :} Thank you, m-w.com didn't really help me when I looked there (or well, I wasn't sure). | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
Level 3 upgrades PvT means 6 hits for a Goon to kill a Tank, instead of 7 (level 2) or 8 (levels 0-1). Big difference if the T doesn't upgrade metal armor (but that is becoming more common). It also means 8 hits for a Zealot to kill a Tank. Level 1 Flyer Attack lets Mutas kill Marines in 4 hits instead of 5, and SCVs in 6 hits instead of 7, important for swooping sniping raids. Level 1 Ship Plating allows your Wraiths to survive one more hit from Missile Turrets, enemy Wraiths, and Goliaths (and also stuff you'll never pit them against like Cannons, Dragoons, but who cares about those), which is important because they're made of cardboard. That's about all I care to list right now. Of course, Starcraft has a zillion examples of "critical upgrade points" like these, which is a major reason why it's such a deceptively deep and very addicting game. I could have sworn I posted a comprehensive list of critical upgrades here a while ago, and I used to have a copy of that info on my hard drive before it broke down. Maybe a mod with search capabilities can check for that. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On May 04 2005 22:07 Excalibur_Z wrote: Yes Zealots only need level 2 to kill mines in one hit, which is very useful. Level 1 Ship Plating allows your Wraiths to survive one more hit from Missile Turrets, enemy Wraiths, and Goliaths (and also stuff you'll never pit them against like Cannons, Dragoons, but who cares about those), which is important because they're made of cardboard. These are both very interesting to me - if the other player elects to upgrade Attack on their Wraith, that negates the Armor that the other Wraith player gets, but what really interested me was the extra hit from the missile turret - which is very important IMO. Actually, wraith vs goon is an important aspect - it seems that vs carriers then Attack and Ship Plating should both be upgraded, I recently played a TvP where he managed to snag both islands with carrier and I was going wriath - also Armor helps against the dreaded Wraith killer corsair, so PERHAPS armor is even more beneficial than attack if you are short on money and can only use one armory upgrade... The +2 weapons for Zeals to kill Mines in one hit is incredible to me, this makes it crucial to go +1 weps, arbiters are in most cases better than carriers so Temp archives are needed, it seems that the ideal is not to go dual forge + arbiter + gates, but one forge making weapons (armor is unnecessary, instead of the 2nd forge + ups get more cannons to protect probes [terran will have +1 attack soon anyway]), faster arbiter and more gateway. /derail | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
in order the damage goes: Dragoon no upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 19, 38, 57, 76, 95, 114, 133, 152 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +1 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 21, 42, 63, 84, 105, 126, 147, 168 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +2 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 23, 46, 69, 92, 115, 138, 161 -- 7 SHOTS Dragoon +3 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150 -- 6 SHOTS so yea, that's good  | ||
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MVP[eV]
United States270 Posts
On May 04 2005 11:29 FireBlast! wrote: The sky is blue. Thanks for your opinion, says critical upgrade list not weapon/armor analysis smartass. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On May 05 2005 00:17 exalted wrote: These are both very interesting to me - if the other player elects to upgrade Attack on their Wraith, that negates the Armor that the other Wraith player gets, but what really interested me was the extra hit from the missile turret - which is very important IMO. Just so there is no confusion here, Wraiths gain +2 damage per upgrade, but their missiles only count as a single hit. That means if you have a level 1 Wraith attacking another level 1 Wraith, the damage inflicted is 21, not 20, so the attacker maintains the advantage, and it is not break-even. Actually, wraith vs goon is an important aspect - it seems that vs carriers then Attack and Ship Plating should both be upgraded, I recently played a TvP where he managed to snag both islands with carrier and I was going wriath - also Armor helps against the dreaded Wraith killer corsair, so PERHAPS armor is even more beneficial than attack if you are short on money and can only use one armory upgrade... It's better to just upgrade vehicle weapons. Not only will they help the Vults and Tanks you are already building, but they make Goliaths into a fearsome unit. Goliaths are cheaper than Wraiths, you can produce more of them at a time, they are more durable, and their +4 missile damage per upgrade far outweighs the +2 of the Wraith. I realize Wraiths are more of a personal preference than anything, but statistically and typically Goliaths are the better choice by virtue of their versatility. Wraiths are essentially Carrier-hunters, and if the enemy stops going Carriers, your Wraiths aren't going to do much good (there are some exceptions). Usually he will snipe some of your Tanks and Turrets or CCs, then you may send your Wraiths to pursue, but he will retreat his Carriers to Cannons or Dragoons/Templar and you will take heavy damage. If you have Goliaths though, you can continue your Tank push and force him to engage you with relatively little micro required. That is when the vehicle upgrades really start to shine. The +2 weapons for Zeals to kill Mines in one hit is incredible to me, this makes it crucial to go +1 weps, arbiters are in most cases better than carriers so Temp archives are needed, it seems that the ideal is not to go dual forge + arbiter + gates, but one forge making weapons (armor is unnecessary, instead of the 2nd forge + ups get more cannons to protect probes [terran will have +1 attack soon anyway]), faster arbiter and more gateway. /derail Weapon upgrades are pretty cheap, and you will need the Templar Archives primarily not for Arbiters but rather for Storm. The fact that it is a prerequisite to further weapon upgrades is merely a bonus in your favor. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On May 05 2005 05:58 Day[9] wrote: Dragoon vs tank damage analysis in order the damage goes: Dragoon no upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 19, 38, 57, 76, 95, 114, 133, 152 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +1 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 21, 42, 63, 84, 105, 126, 147, 168 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +2 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 23, 46, 69, 92, 115, 138, 161 -- 7 SHOTS Dragoon +3 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150 -- 6 SHOTS so yea, that's good I said that already silly guy =] | ||
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labcoated
Canada392 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On May 05 2005 20:07 labcoated wrote: i think we should try to define "significance." going from 3 hits to 2 -- is that a 33% reduction? what is the minimal reduction that we would say is significant? and should we exclude certain unit matchups as "insigificant" because they rarely decide the outcome of a game? What Day was referring to was self-explanatory: critical upgrades that cause units to kill other units in less hits, which in a large-scale situation can decisively turn the tide of battle. EDIT: And oh shit I've been trolled. Referring to your other post: i think we have to debate "smartness" as a concept, first. just what do we mean when we say one is smarter than another? do not let a word hide the open issue from your mind. What's next? "I think we have to determine what the definition of 'is' is." | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On May 05 2005 07:16 MVP[eV] wrote: Thanks for your opinion, says critical upgrade list not weapon/armor analysis smartass. - technically upgrades are only weapon/armor...... the stuff you listed is "research" which doesn't usually matter much unless you're dealing with things like mind control... - if you didn't notice by the rest of the thread weapon/armor is what we're talking about anyway - what you said was obvious anyhow thats why he made that comment (although its a useless comment to a useless post that i hope you should realize was useless) /another useless post and why does ling armor reduce damage from cannons by 2?? wtf | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32280 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12248 Posts
On May 05 2005 20:26 Locked wrote: and why does ling armor reduce damage from cannons by 2?? wtf It actually doesn't. All Zerg units and structures, of course, have an innate regeneration ability. However, all regeneration does not take place simultaneously (on the same game tick). Regeneration first kicks in when a unit or structure is damaged. If the initial hit is not enough to kill the unit or structure, it will immediately begin regeneration. This leads to the illusion that your attacking unit may be doing less damage. For example, if I attack a Drone with an SCV, the Drone will have 36 life instead of 35. Its life actually does go down to 35, but at the exact same time it regenerates to 36. The regeneration simply becomes more apparent with subsequent hits because the cooldown of your attacking unit differs from the regeneration rate (which I estimate is probably around 50). It is especially easy to notice this phenomenon if you have two Vultures attacking Drones. If their shots land even one frame apart, the Drone will not die because on frame 1, the Drone has taken 20 damage, then at the end of frame 1, the Drone regenerates 1 life, and then on frame 2, the Drone takes another 20 damage from the other Vulture. If those two Vultures hit the Drone simultaneously, though, the Drone does die. Now, to relate this to the scenario you have mentioned: the Cannon attacks the ling, bringing it down to 15 life, but it regenerates immediately so it goes back up to 16. | ||
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