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Before i say anything, i want to make clear what i mean by "critical upgrade"
A critical upgrade is an upgrade that causes the attacking unit to become significantly more effective against another unit
Example:
+1 attack upgrade causes zealots to kill zerglings in 2 hits as opposed to 3, making +1 zealots about 50% more effective against zerglings
UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED, i assume the enemy unit does not have any upgrades. For example, i'm not going to do +1 carapace lings vs +1 attack zealots type cases, because that's essentially the same as +0 vs +0.
Also, the upgrades are comparing the +X upgrade vs the +0 upgrade. For example +2 attack tanks kill other tanks in 2 shots, as opposed to +0 tanks which kill other tanks in 3 shots.
So, my critical upgrades list
PROTOSS
Protoss +1 ground attack: zealots kill lings in 2 hits instead of 3
Protoss +2 ground attack: zealots kill mines in 1 hit
Protoss +1 ground armor: probes can take an extra vulture shot
Protoss +2 ground attack: dragoons kill tanks in 7 shots instead of 8
Protoss +3 ground attack: dragoons kill tanks in 6 shots instead of 8
TERRAN
Terran +1 marine attack: marines kill lurkers in about 21 shots instead of 26
Terran +1 marine armor: marines can take an extra sunken/lurker shot
Terran +2 tank attack: tanks kill other tanks in 2 hits instead of 3
Terran +1 ship armor: wraiths take 7 shots from missile turrets instead of 6
ZERG
Zerg +1 air attack: mutalisks kill marines in 4 shots instead of 5
Zerg +1 air attack: mutalisks kill SCVs in 6 shots instead of 7
Zerg +1 ground attack: lings kill other lings in 6 hits instead of 8
(note, although lings do 5 damage and have 35 life, a zergling will heal 1 HP immediately after it takes damage. Thus, a zergling has essentially 36 life, meaning it takes 8 hits)
Zerg +3 ground armor: lings can take 3 photon cannon shots instead of 2
Zerg +1 ground armor: lings can take 9 marine shots instead of 8 (7.2 to be exact)
Statistics like that allow me to fully understand how good my upgrades are 
please post ANY that you know, and i'll update the list
i mean post ANY (even stuff like devourer vs corsair and such)
i think if i get this list pretty huge, it would be an incredibly useful resource/article, so PLZ HELP! :D
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im assuming you dont count zealot speed, ling speed etc...
Armor critical muta vs muta imo
and atk ling vs ling
anyone know the numbers on those?
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Belgium8305 Posts
I'm not sure how much difference that Zerg +1 attack would make, seeing as how you're always attacking with a bunch of muta anyway..
Uhm..
Terran +1 armor, marines can take an extra sunken/lurker shot (but there are usually medics around and you lose health from stimming so yeah..)
Protoss +1 armor: probes can take an extra vulture shot, I think this is really useful..
Can't really think of anything else right now.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think 3+ attack for Zealots/Goons gives them one less hit to kill tanks but I'm lazy and not sure :D Goons take two less shots at least (6 compared to 8).
I dont know why exactly but 2+ metal makes tanks a million times better vs goon/zealot (I dont think there's any differance in the amount of hits it takes to kill them but yeah I consider it a critical upgrade).
1+ Armor means lings require 1 more hit to kill dragoons (or so I'm told) also affects (I'm not sure if this should be effects? For whatever reason I think it should be affects.. but that might be really wrong - _- EDIT: okay so it is, as I initially thought; affects) muta vs goon I think.
3+ archons eat lings in one hit (I think they do at 2+ as well but not sure).
3+ (maybe even 2+) goons become drastically more effective vs hydras, as do zealots, not sure if they require less hits but maybe they do - -; Dont know if it's critical I'm lazy 
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3+ archons definently vs lings. (1 hit regardless of armor.)
+1 carrier. Dunno exactly why but it's almost a must. (All carrier attack ups are very good tho.)
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tanks with +2attack do 80 damage and kill enemy tanks in two hits instead of three (big difference IMO, contain becomes much stronger)
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote: I think 3+ attack for Zealots/Goons gives them one less hit to kill tanks but I'm lazy and not sure :D Goons take two less shots at least (6 compared to 8). I dont know why exactly but 2+ metal makes tanks a million times better vs goon/zealot (I dont think there's any differance in the amount of hits it takes to kill them but yeah I consider it a critical upgrade). 1+ Armor means lings require 1 more hit to kill dragoons (or so I'm told) also affects (I'm not sure if this should be effects? For whatever reason I think it should be affects.. but that might be really wrong - _-) muta vs goon I think. 3+ archons eat lings in one hit (I think they do at 2+ as well but not sure). 3+ (maybe even 2+) goons become drastically more effective vs hydras, as do zealots, not sure if they require less hits but maybe they do - -; Dont know if it's critical I'm lazy +2 archons kill unupgraded lings or lings with +1 armour in 1 hit..+3 archons kill lings in 1 hit regardless of the lings upgrades. archon dmg=30 +3/upgrade and zerglings got 35hp
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Zealot Legs: Without legs hydra will embarass you.
Goliath Range: Without range your goliaths stand no chance vs carriers.
Goon Range: Deffinate must if you're going mostly goon build. They outrange every ground unit except for tank and reaver.
Stim: You simply can't live without it vs large zerg swarms.
Seige: Terran wouldnt stand a chance vs Protoss without seige mode, especially early game.
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+1 armour means Zerglings take 3 hits instead of 2 from Photon Cannons.
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anyone knows anything about tank upgrades in tvz? might be good when having 2 fact vs hydra/lurk
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hohoho +1 infantry armor for TvP makes DT's take 2 hits to kill a marine instead of 1. of course when protoss gets +1 weapons he is set. but usually when terran goes infantry, toss has goons/zealots and then uses all gas to rush to templars once he sees the mass rax. in other words, the upgrade is useful for the first push but eventually the toss will get +1
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On May 04 2005 11:01 MVP[eV] wrote:
Zealot Legs: Without legs hydra will embarass you.
Goliath Range: Without range your goliaths stand no chance vs carriers.
Goon Range: Deffinate must if you're going mostly goon build. They outrange every ground unit except for tank and reaver.
Stim: You simply can't live without it vs large zerg swarms.
Seige: Terran wouldnt stand a chance vs Protoss without seige mode, especially early game.
The sky is blue.
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Norway10161 Posts
+1 ling attack makes lings kill other lings in 6 hits instead of 7, big difference.
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On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
1+ Armor means lings require 1 more hit to kill dragoons (or so I'm told) also affects (I'm not sure if this should be effects? For whatever reason I think it should be affects.. but that might be really wrong - _-) muta vs goon I think.
Affect is usually used to describe something that affects the mind. So most of the time you'd want to use ' effect '
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Day, are you sure +3 weapons makes zealots kill mines in 1 hit? I doubt this - I do know, however, +2 weapons for zeals allows them to kill mines in two hits.
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I also think that "trends" are also useful to note here: for example -
I"ve seen nada get ship armor and vehicle weapons as his upgrades (apparently armor >> ship weapons?)
Tank Plating is useless TvT, etc
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Don't think I saw these mentioned, but
+2 Mech weapon TvT sieged tank kill other tanks in 2 hits instead of 3
+1 mech weapon lets vults kill drones/probes in 2 hits instead of 3 (assuming you don't have two vults together, in which case you don't worry about shield/health regen).
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On May 04 2005 11:40 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
1+ Armor means lings require 1 more hit to kill dragoons (or so I'm told) also affects (I'm not sure if this should be effects? For whatever reason I think it should be affects.. but that might be really wrong - _-) muta vs goon I think.
Affect is usually used to describe something that affects the mind. So most of the time you'd want to use ' effect '
AHHHH NO YOU ARE WRONG
okay i hate to be grammar nazi, but when people use 'affect' instead of 'effect' is my biggest pet peeve in the entire world, so, allow me to differentiate between affect and effect.
in this context, affect is a verb, effect is a noun.
Through the action of affecting, a subject produces an effect on an object.
Your incorrect post affected me.
This crappy post is the resultant effect.
It has nothing to do with the mind or anything, random objects can "affect" as well.
For example:
The warm temperature affected the ice cube, causing it to melt.
I hope this helps to clarify. I'm sorry I had to do this. But you guys really have no idea how much it bothers me to see this misused lol, it's ridiculous
edit: ridiculous how much it bothers me, not that people misuse it
ahh here is a lovely usage note from dictionary.com regarding effect the verb:
Usage Note: Affect and effect have no senses in common. As a verb affect is most commonly used in the sense of “to influence” (how smoking affects health). Effect means “to bring about or execute”: layoffs designed to effect savings. Thus the sentence These measures may affect savings could imply that the measures may reduce savings that have already been realized, whereas These measures may effect savings implies that the measures will cause new savings to come about.
but i digress, on topic, i like +1 air armor for wraiths in tvt, they take 7 hits from a missile turret instead of 6
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+1 armor zerglings take 3 hits from zeals again (when they have +1 ups :O)
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Cybernetics Core upgrade. Kills units that are in far range.
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lol almost made the post lil.sis already made =O
(except i don't feel that strongly just to help correct)
On May 04 2005 12:16 exalted wrote:
I"ve seen nada get ship armor and vehicle weapons as his upgrades (apparently armor >> ship weapons?)
i always thought that was for dropships but maybe someone else knows a different reason?
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corsair vs muta, attack for corsair armor for muta. Also if you like me have temps standing around long it`s nice to get the 50+ energy, since then you get 3 storms with full emergy instead of two.
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On May 04 2005 09:33 Day[9] wrote:
Protoss +3 ground attack: zealots kill mines in 1 hit
I'm pretty sure +2 ground attack allows zealots to kill mines in 1 hit since mines only have 20 hp
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On May 04 2005 15:18 Painbringer wrote:
corsair vs muta, attack for corsair armor for muta. Also if you like me have temps standing around long it`s nice to get the 50+ energy, since then you get 3 storms with full emergy instead of two.
they're also able to storm sooner, which is more important imo
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On May 04 2005 11:04 FireBlast! wrote:
+1 armour means Zerglings take 3 hits instead of 2 from Photon Cannons.
actually, 1 armor means minus 2 damage. 20 damage x 2 from cannons = 40 damage - 2 = 38. health of lings is 35. you need 3 carapace upgrades to take 3 hits from cannons.
zlots need weapon 2 to kill mines in 1 hit. 16 + 4 damage = 20. 20 health for mines.
all basic unit upgrades are essential. marine lings zlots.
carrier armor upgrade imo is really good vs goliaths because goliaths have that freaken 2x damage type. reduces a lot of damage. 0 upgrades means 4 armor. 4 armor means -8 damage.
7 armor means -14 damage from the goliaths.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I dont know why exactly but 2+ metal makes tanks a million times better vs goon/zealot (I dont think there's any differance in the amount of hits it takes to kill them but yeah I consider it a critical upgrade).
Its difficult to see the "critical" in this upgrades but as when you get +2 plus tanks splash its really makes battle a lot easier TvP.
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On May 04 2005 18:13 ahk-gosu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2005 11:04 FireBlast! wrote:
+1 armour means Zerglings take 3 hits instead of 2 from Photon Cannons. actually, 1 armor means minus 2 damage. 20 damage x 2 from cannons = 40 damage - 2 = 38. health of lings is 35. you need 3 carapace upgrades to take 3 hits from cannons.
Wouldn't that be (20 - 2) = 18 x 2 = 36 then?
Which would still kill a ling in two hits.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 04 2005 11:26 NonY wrote:
hohoho +1 infantry armor for TvP makes DT's take 2 hits to kill a marine instead of 1. of course when protoss gets +1 weapons he is set. but usually when terran goes infantry, toss has goons/zealots and then uses all gas to rush to templars once he sees the mass rax. in other words, the upgrade is useful for the first push but eventually the toss will get +1
Marines can also take one more hit from goons I think ;o
5 instead of 4.
Hm, 1+ carapace is of course vital, also makes dts take two hits to kill drones, which is good. Aside from the obvious, ie making lings die in 3 instead of 2 hits from 1+ zealots ;p
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 04 2005 13:43 lil.sis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2005 11:40 Ack1027 wrote:On May 04 2005 09:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
1+ Armor means lings require 1 more hit to kill dragoons (or so I'm told) also affects (I'm not sure if this should be effects? For whatever reason I think it should be affects.. but that might be really wrong - _-) muta vs goon I think.
Affect is usually used to describe something that affects the mind. So most of the time you'd want to use ' effect ' AHHHH NO YOU ARE WRONG okay i hate to be grammar nazi, but when people use 'affect' instead of 'effect' is my biggest pet peeve in the entire world, so, allow me to differentiate between affect and effect. in this context, affect is a verb, effect is a noun. Through the action of affecting, a subject produces an effect on an object. Your incorrect post affected me. This crappy post is the resultant effect. It has nothing to do with the mind or anything, random objects can "affect" as well. For example: The warm temperature affected the ice cube, causing it to melt. I hope this helps to clarify. I'm sorry I had to do this. But you guys really have no idea how much it bothers me to see this misused lol, it's ridiculous edit: ridiculous how much it bothers me, not that people misuse it ahh here is a lovely usage note from dictionary.com regarding effect the verb: Usage Note: Affect and effect have no senses in common. As a verb affect is most commonly used in the sense of “to influence” (how smoking affects health). Effect means “to bring about or execute”: layoffs designed to effect savings. Thus the sentence These measures may affect savings could imply that the measures may reduce savings that have already been realized, whereas These measures may effect savings implies that the measures will cause new savings to come about. but i digress, on topic, i like +1 air armor for wraiths in tvt, they take 7 hits from a missile turret instead of 6
:}
Thank you, m-w.com didn't really help me when I looked there (or well, I wasn't sure).
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United States12237 Posts
Yes Zealots only need level 2 to kill mines in one hit, which is very useful.
Level 3 upgrades PvT means 6 hits for a Goon to kill a Tank, instead of 7 (level 2) or 8 (levels 0-1). Big difference if the T doesn't upgrade metal armor (but that is becoming more common). It also means 8 hits for a Zealot to kill a Tank.
Level 1 Flyer Attack lets Mutas kill Marines in 4 hits instead of 5, and SCVs in 6 hits instead of 7, important for swooping sniping raids.
Level 1 Ship Plating allows your Wraiths to survive one more hit from Missile Turrets, enemy Wraiths, and Goliaths (and also stuff you'll never pit them against like Cannons, Dragoons, but who cares about those), which is important because they're made of cardboard.
That's about all I care to list right now. Of course, Starcraft has a zillion examples of "critical upgrade points" like these, which is a major reason why it's such a deceptively deep and very addicting game. I could have sworn I posted a comprehensive list of critical upgrades here a while ago, and I used to have a copy of that info on my hard drive before it broke down. Maybe a mod with search capabilities can check for that.
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On May 04 2005 22:07 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Yes Zealots only need level 2 to kill mines in one hit, which is very useful.
Level 1 Ship Plating allows your Wraiths to survive one more hit from Missile Turrets, enemy Wraiths, and Goliaths (and also stuff you'll never pit them against like Cannons, Dragoons, but who cares about those), which is important because they're made of cardboard.
These are both very interesting to me - if the other player elects to upgrade Attack on their Wraith, that negates the Armor that the other Wraith player gets, but what really interested me was the extra hit from the missile turret - which is very important IMO.
Actually, wraith vs goon is an important aspect - it seems that vs carriers then Attack and Ship Plating should both be upgraded, I recently played a TvP where he managed to snag both islands with carrier and I was going wriath - also Armor helps against the dreaded Wraith killer corsair, so PERHAPS armor is even more beneficial than attack if you are short on money and can only use one armory upgrade...
The +2 weapons for Zeals to kill Mines in one hit is incredible to me, this makes it crucial to go +1 weps, arbiters are in most cases better than carriers so Temp archives are needed, it seems that the ideal is not to go dual forge + arbiter + gates, but one forge making weapons (armor is unnecessary, instead of the 2nd forge + ups get more cannons to protect probes [terran will have +1 attack soon anyway]), faster arbiter and more gateway. /derail
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Dragoon vs tank damage analysis
in order the damage goes:
Dragoon no upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 19, 38, 57, 76, 95, 114, 133, 152 -- 8 SHOTS
Dragoon +1 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 21, 42, 63, 84, 105, 126, 147, 168 -- 8 SHOTS
Dragoon +2 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 23, 46, 69, 92, 115, 138, 161 -- 7 SHOTS
Dragoon +3 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150 -- 6 SHOTS
so yea, that's good
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On May 04 2005 11:29 FireBlast! wrote:
The sky is blue.
Thanks for your opinion, says critical upgrade list not weapon/armor analysis smartass.
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United States12237 Posts
On May 05 2005 00:17 exalted wrote:
These are both very interesting to me - if the other player elects to upgrade Attack on their Wraith, that negates the Armor that the other Wraith player gets, but what really interested me was the extra hit from the missile turret - which is very important IMO.
Just so there is no confusion here, Wraiths gain +2 damage per upgrade, but their missiles only count as a single hit. That means if you have a level 1 Wraith attacking another level 1 Wraith, the damage inflicted is 21, not 20, so the attacker maintains the advantage, and it is not break-even.
Actually, wraith vs goon is an important aspect - it seems that vs carriers then Attack and Ship Plating should both be upgraded, I recently played a TvP where he managed to snag both islands with carrier and I was going wriath - also Armor helps against the dreaded Wraith killer corsair, so PERHAPS armor is even more beneficial than attack if you are short on money and can only use one armory upgrade...
It's better to just upgrade vehicle weapons. Not only will they help the Vults and Tanks you are already building, but they make Goliaths into a fearsome unit. Goliaths are cheaper than Wraiths, you can produce more of them at a time, they are more durable, and their +4 missile damage per upgrade far outweighs the +2 of the Wraith. I realize Wraiths are more of a personal preference than anything, but statistically and typically Goliaths are the better choice by virtue of their versatility. Wraiths are essentially Carrier-hunters, and if the enemy stops going Carriers, your Wraiths aren't going to do much good (there are some exceptions). Usually he will snipe some of your Tanks and Turrets or CCs, then you may send your Wraiths to pursue, but he will retreat his Carriers to Cannons or Dragoons/Templar and you will take heavy damage. If you have Goliaths though, you can continue your Tank push and force him to engage you with relatively little micro required. That is when the vehicle upgrades really start to shine.
The +2 weapons for Zeals to kill Mines in one hit is incredible to me, this makes it crucial to go +1 weps, arbiters are in most cases better than carriers so Temp archives are needed, it seems that the ideal is not to go dual forge + arbiter + gates, but one forge making weapons (armor is unnecessary, instead of the 2nd forge + ups get more cannons to protect probes [terran will have +1 attack soon anyway]), faster arbiter and more gateway. /derail
Weapon upgrades are pretty cheap, and you will need the Templar Archives primarily not for Arbiters but rather for Storm. The fact that it is a prerequisite to further weapon upgrades is merely a bonus in your favor.
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United States12237 Posts
On May 05 2005 05:58 Day[9] wrote:Dragoon vs tank damage analysis in order the damage goes: Dragoon no upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 19, 38, 57, 76, 95, 114, 133, 152 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +1 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 21, 42, 63, 84, 105, 126, 147, 168 -- 8 SHOTS Dragoon +2 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 23, 46, 69, 92, 115, 138, 161 -- 7 SHOTS Dragoon +3 upgrade vs Tank (1 armor): 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150 -- 6 SHOTS so yea, that's good
I said that already silly guy =]
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i think we should try to define "significance." going from 3 hits to 2 -- is that a 33% reduction? what is the minimal reduction that we would say is significant? and should we exclude certain unit matchups as "insigificant" because they rarely decide the outcome of a game?
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United States12237 Posts
On May 05 2005 20:07 labcoated wrote:
i think we should try to define "significance." going from 3 hits to 2 -- is that a 33% reduction? what is the minimal reduction that we would say is significant? and should we exclude certain unit matchups as "insigificant" because they rarely decide the outcome of a game?
What Day was referring to was self-explanatory: critical upgrades that cause units to kill other units in less hits, which in a large-scale situation can decisively turn the tide of battle.
EDIT: And oh shit I've been trolled. Referring to your other post:
i think we have to debate "smartness" as a concept, first. just what do we mean when we say one is smarter than another? do not let a word hide the open issue from your mind.
What's next? "I think we have to determine what the definition of 'is' is."
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edit: lol excal
On May 05 2005 07:16 MVP[eV] wrote:Thanks for your opinion, says critical upgrade list not weapon/armor analysis smartass.
- technically upgrades are only weapon/armor...... the stuff you listed is "research" which doesn't usually matter much unless you're dealing with things like mind control...
- if you didn't notice by the rest of the thread weapon/armor is what we're talking about anyway
- what you said was obvious anyhow thats why he made that comment (although its a useless comment to a useless post that i hope you should realize was useless)
/another useless post
and why does ling armor reduce damage from cannons by 2?? wtf
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is awesome32277 Posts
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United States12237 Posts
On May 05 2005 20:26 Locked wrote:
and why does ling armor reduce damage from cannons by 2?? wtf
It actually doesn't. All Zerg units and structures, of course, have an innate regeneration ability. However, all regeneration does not take place simultaneously (on the same game tick). Regeneration first kicks in when a unit or structure is damaged. If the initial hit is not enough to kill the unit or structure, it will immediately begin regeneration. This leads to the illusion that your attacking unit may be doing less damage. For example, if I attack a Drone with an SCV, the Drone will have 36 life instead of 35. Its life actually does go down to 35, but at the exact same time it regenerates to 36. The regeneration simply becomes more apparent with subsequent hits because the cooldown of your attacking unit differs from the regeneration rate (which I estimate is probably around 50).
It is especially easy to notice this phenomenon if you have two Vultures attacking Drones. If their shots land even one frame apart, the Drone will not die because on frame 1, the Drone has taken 20 damage, then at the end of frame 1, the Drone regenerates 1 life, and then on frame 2, the Drone takes another 20 damage from the other Vulture. If those two Vultures hit the Drone simultaneously, though, the Drone does die.
Now, to relate this to the scenario you have mentioned: the Cannon attacks the ling, bringing it down to 15 life, but it regenerates immediately so it goes back up to 16.
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On May 05 2005 21:07 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2005 20:26 Locked wrote:
and why does ling armor reduce damage from cannons by 2?? wtf It actually doesn't. All Zerg units and structures, of course, have an innate regeneration ability. However, all regeneration does not take place simultaneously (on the same game tick). Regeneration first kicks in when a unit or structure is damaged. If the initial hit is not enough to kill the unit or structure, it will immediately begin regeneration. This leads to the illusion that your attacking unit may be doing less damage. For example, if I attack a Drone with an SCV, the Drone will have 36 life instead of 35. Its life actually does go down to 35, but at the exact same time it regenerates to 36. The regeneration simply becomes more apparent with subsequent hits because the cooldown of your attacking unit differs from the regeneration rate (which I estimate is probably around 50). It is especially easy to notice this phenomenon if you have two Vultures attacking Drones. If their shots land even one frame apart, the Drone will not die because on frame 1, the Drone has taken 20 damage, then at the end of frame 1, the Drone regenerates 1 life, and then on frame 2, the Drone takes another 20 damage from the other Vulture. If those two Vultures hit the Drone simultaneously, though, the Drone does die. Now, to relate this to the scenario you have mentioned: the Cannon attacks the ling, bringing it down to 15 life, but it regenerates immediately so it goes back up to 16.
ah ok just making sure
i know about the regeneration thing but how it was put made it sound like a cannon attack really are a double-attack (like zealots or goliaths air or something) to me
re-reading it just looks like he meant by the 2 hits...
and regeneration should be factored in
edit: this post got fuxed --;
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EPT
