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On July 29 2011 10:21 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 09:50 writer22816 wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 01:52 ffreakk wrote:On July 28 2011 23:34 supernovamaniac wrote:On July 28 2011 23:33 Achromic wrote:On July 28 2011 06:27 puppykiller wrote:
No one I know is hostile to ppl who are switching from sc2 to BW. Most hostility i notice is directed towards ppl who know absolutely nothing about BW trying to talk about the game like they play it everyday. Yeah this. New Starcraft 2 players who argue against long time BW players thinking they are on equal grounds pisses me off the most. Equally, there are those who bash at SC2 without actually trying out the game. I dont know man.. I was under the imperssion that most of the Starcraft (Brood War) fans would be curious, if not excited about SC2, so most of them should have tried already.. Even if there are people who havnt tried out Sc2, they should be few and far between. BW folks think they're better because supposedly their game has a bigger skill ceiling (up to debate) Because they think no autocasting, no multibuilding selection, no auto mine, no 255 unit selection limit makes them better players ( up to debate) and bash SC2 because they refer to it as a watered down game.(up to debate) Are you serious? Please go watch a FPVOD of a professional BW player and try to tell me that "BW has a bigger skill ceiling = up to debate". SC2 is just much easier from a mechanical point of view. Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme but please try to understand why many BW players are critical of SC2. Because of the lower skill ceiling many people do not see the professional SC2 players in the same caliber as today's professional BW players. There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? "Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme"i think you misread what he said.
ah I apologize for that then
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On July 29 2011 10:21 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 09:50 writer22816 wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 01:52 ffreakk wrote:On July 28 2011 23:34 supernovamaniac wrote:On July 28 2011 23:33 Achromic wrote:On July 28 2011 06:27 puppykiller wrote:
No one I know is hostile to ppl who are switching from sc2 to BW. Most hostility i notice is directed towards ppl who know absolutely nothing about BW trying to talk about the game like they play it everyday. Yeah this. New Starcraft 2 players who argue against long time BW players thinking they are on equal grounds pisses me off the most. Equally, there are those who bash at SC2 without actually trying out the game. I dont know man.. I was under the imperssion that most of the Starcraft (Brood War) fans would be curious, if not excited about SC2, so most of them should have tried already.. Even if there are people who havnt tried out Sc2, they should be few and far between. BW folks think they're better because supposedly their game has a bigger skill ceiling (up to debate) Because they think no autocasting, no multibuilding selection, no auto mine, no 255 unit selection limit makes them better players ( up to debate) and bash SC2 because they refer to it as a watered down game.(up to debate) Are you serious? Please go watch a FPVOD of a professional BW player and try to tell me that "BW has a bigger skill ceiling = up to debate". SC2 is just much easier from a mechanical point of view. Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme but please try to understand why many BW players are critical of SC2. Because of the lower skill ceiling many people do not see the professional SC2 players in the same caliber as today's professional BW players. There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? "Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme"i think you misread what he said. if you're talking about bw vs sc2 pro, he did say bw is more mechanically challenging, which is correct.
Yes BW is more mechanically challenging. But the skill ceiling of SC2 has yet been touched, rushing to conclusion is a bit too much don't you think so?
'
APM has been freed from mechanics, there for you can use them for more things, like multi pronged attacks, micro, etc.
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Well in my experience, it seems like many SC II people just do not speak well of Brood War. When I tried to get my friends into Brood War, they said the game sucked and the graphics were horrendous. Then my friends got into SC II and got into the e-sport scene all right, but there was something so annoying about it. Especially when it came to TLO and Spanishiwa.
To make things worse, when we were at school and decided to play a game, they refused to touch Brood War and told me that Brood War sucks and tried to give me a series of reasons why...
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On July 29 2011 10:25 Shiragaku wrote:
Well in my experience, it seems like many SC II people just do not speak well of Brood War. When I tried to get my friends into Brood War, they said the game sucked and the graphics were horrendous. Then my friends got into SC II and got into the e-sport scene all right, but there was something so annoying about it. Especially when it came to TLO and Spanishiwa.
To make things worse, when we were at school and decided to play a game, they refused to touch SC II and told me that Brood War sucks and tried to give me a series of reasons why...
so did they refuse to touch SC2 or Brood War?
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On July 29 2011 10:28 Shiragaku wrote:
Nothing to see bro.
=0 you corrected yourself!
But yeah people like that does exist. No reason to not pick up a game just because graphics are poor, It seems some gameplay values are overlooked by the new generation gamers
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Assuming an equal level of exposure and tournament money in the West, I think that most of the top-level Western players would still be playing Brood War. That's where the resentment lies. Out of all the Blizzard strategy games, I consider Warcraft III to be my favorite. However, StarCraft: Brood War is the best game in the lot. I'd be crazy not to say that. However, people aren't playing it. The StarCraft scene traveled where the money and fame went, and having the playing field reset after a decade of Korean domination was too good for players like IdrA (who has done nothing but slam the game all the while continuing to play it) to pass up. That's why people are resentful. It's looking increasingly likely that South Korean Brood War will eventually be assimilated with the global StarCraft II scene for no reasons other than "the money isn't there like it used to be", "Blizzard wants to push their new game", and "It's new, so obviously, newer is better." Brood War is a better game simply by virtue of being explored and dissected in a manner that StarCraft II has yet to endure, and StarCraft II won't stabilize until both expansion packs are released and Blizzard figures out what direction they want to take the game in order to "finalize" the state of balance. Quite simply, StarCraft II is more popular for reasons other than "It's the better game." It's the same reason that long-time Doom and Quake fans hate the success of games like Halo and Call of Duty, even when it's very easy to demonstrate or make an argument that the shooters in the nineties were better games.
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Ok just to demonstrate my stance on this
1.I love both BW and SC2, I want neither to die
2.If I am forced to take a side, I do side with SC2
3.BW is more complex on mechanics
4.I do not think BW is a superior game
5.SC2 is simpler interms of mechanics
6.I do not think SC2 is a superior game
7.I do not bash either games
8.I do not bash players for playing either or both games
9.I some what keep up with the Brood War scene thru my friends
10. I really hate it when people tell me that I am playing a worse game than Brood War
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On July 29 2011 10:24 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:21 jinorazi wrote:On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 09:50 writer22816 wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 01:52 ffreakk wrote:On July 28 2011 23:34 supernovamaniac wrote:On July 28 2011 23:33 Achromic wrote:On July 28 2011 06:27 puppykiller wrote:
No one I know is hostile to ppl who are switching from sc2 to BW. Most hostility i notice is directed towards ppl who know absolutely nothing about BW trying to talk about the game like they play it everyday. Yeah this. New Starcraft 2 players who argue against long time BW players thinking they are on equal grounds pisses me off the most. Equally, there are those who bash at SC2 without actually trying out the game. I dont know man.. I was under the imperssion that most of the Starcraft (Brood War) fans would be curious, if not excited about SC2, so most of them should have tried already.. Even if there are people who havnt tried out Sc2, they should be few and far between. BW folks think they're better because supposedly their game has a bigger skill ceiling (up to debate) Because they think no autocasting, no multibuilding selection, no auto mine, no 255 unit selection limit makes them better players ( up to debate) and bash SC2 because they refer to it as a watered down game.(up to debate) Are you serious? Please go watch a FPVOD of a professional BW player and try to tell me that "BW has a bigger skill ceiling = up to debate". SC2 is just much easier from a mechanical point of view. Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme but please try to understand why many BW players are critical of SC2. Because of the lower skill ceiling many people do not see the professional SC2 players in the same caliber as today's professional BW players. There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? "Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme"i think you misread what he said. if you're talking about bw vs sc2 pro, he did say bw is more mechanically challenging, which is correct. Yes BW is more mechanically challenging. But the skill ceiling of SC2 has yet been touched, rushing to conclusion is a bit too much don't you think so? ' APM has been freed from mechanics, there for you can use them for more things, like multi pronged attacks, micro, etc.
Enh. They're different skillsets. It's true that SC2 players are finding ways to use their APM (Losira sets and uses baneling landmines placed with exactly two banes at optimal locations during battles. That's hard. Try running 30 banes up a terran's ramp and have exactly two of them burrow in the middle of it), but I think good SC2 is starting to move in a different direction. qxc-style "this attack needs more prongs!" is fun to watch, but not actually all that effective. I feel like when the metagame of SC2 finally settles down, it won't actually rememble BW much at all.
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On July 29 2011 10:24 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:21 jinorazi wrote:On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 09:50 writer22816 wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 01:52 ffreakk wrote:On July 28 2011 23:34 supernovamaniac wrote:On July 28 2011 23:33 Achromic wrote:On July 28 2011 06:27 puppykiller wrote:
No one I know is hostile to ppl who are switching from sc2 to BW. Most hostility i notice is directed towards ppl who know absolutely nothing about BW trying to talk about the game like they play it everyday. Yeah this. New Starcraft 2 players who argue against long time BW players thinking they are on equal grounds pisses me off the most. Equally, there are those who bash at SC2 without actually trying out the game. I dont know man.. I was under the imperssion that most of the Starcraft (Brood War) fans would be curious, if not excited about SC2, so most of them should have tried already.. Even if there are people who havnt tried out Sc2, they should be few and far between. BW folks think they're better because supposedly their game has a bigger skill ceiling (up to debate) Because they think no autocasting, no multibuilding selection, no auto mine, no 255 unit selection limit makes them better players ( up to debate) and bash SC2 because they refer to it as a watered down game.(up to debate) Are you serious? Please go watch a FPVOD of a professional BW player and try to tell me that "BW has a bigger skill ceiling = up to debate". SC2 is just much easier from a mechanical point of view. Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme but please try to understand why many BW players are critical of SC2. Because of the lower skill ceiling many people do not see the professional SC2 players in the same caliber as today's professional BW players. There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? "Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme"i think you misread what he said. if you're talking about bw vs sc2 pro, he did say bw is more mechanically challenging, which is correct. Yes BW is more mechanically challenging. But the skill ceiling of SC2 has yet been touched, rushing to conclusion is a bit too much don't you think so? ' APM has been freed from mechanics, there for you can use them for more things, like multi pronged attacks, micro, etc.
i think there's a lot of factors when it comes to skill. just like some are micro orientated some are macro, there are other factors like game sense and whatnot. maybe this is why nestea, mc and other are doing good in sc2 but not in bw. only time will tell, when players like flash and jaedong arises in sc2.
i do like the easier mechanics of sc2 definitely, however i dont agree with the changes they made when it comes to easier units to use like colossus and early/mid game micro limiting abilities. the game just feels unfinished(which it is) and hopefully the next two expansions will make the game good as it can be.
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On July 29 2011 10:45 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 10:24 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 10:21 jinorazi wrote:On July 29 2011 10:19 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 09:50 writer22816 wrote:On July 29 2011 01:58 Blasterion wrote:On July 29 2011 01:52 ffreakk wrote:On July 28 2011 23:34 supernovamaniac wrote:On July 28 2011 23:33 Achromic wrote:On July 28 2011 06:27 puppykiller wrote:
No one I know is hostile to ppl who are switching from sc2 to BW. Most hostility i notice is directed towards ppl who know absolutely nothing about BW trying to talk about the game like they play it everyday. Yeah this. New Starcraft 2 players who argue against long time BW players thinking they are on equal grounds pisses me off the most. Equally, there are those who bash at SC2 without actually trying out the game. I dont know man.. I was under the imperssion that most of the Starcraft (Brood War) fans would be curious, if not excited about SC2, so most of them should have tried already.. Even if there are people who havnt tried out Sc2, they should be few and far between. BW folks think they're better because supposedly their game has a bigger skill ceiling (up to debate) Because they think no autocasting, no multibuilding selection, no auto mine, no 255 unit selection limit makes them better players ( up to debate) and bash SC2 because they refer to it as a watered down game.(up to debate) Are you serious? Please go watch a FPVOD of a professional BW player and try to tell me that "BW has a bigger skill ceiling = up to debate". SC2 is just much easier from a mechanical point of view. Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme but please try to understand why many BW players are critical of SC2. Because of the lower skill ceiling many people do not see the professional SC2 players in the same caliber as today's professional BW players. There you have it. Tell me if you agree that "SC2 takes no skill" aren't you trolling the SC2 Community? Aren't you provoking flame wars? Aren't you trying to create hostility between the communities? "Now I agree that blanket statements like "SC2 takes no skill", "SC2 is a game for noobs" are extreme"i think you misread what he said. if you're talking about bw vs sc2 pro, he did say bw is more mechanically challenging, which is correct. Yes BW is more mechanically challenging. But the skill ceiling of SC2 has yet been touched, rushing to conclusion is a bit too much don't you think so? ' APM has been freed from mechanics, there for you can use them for more things, like multi pronged attacks, micro, etc. i think there's a lot of factors when it comes to skill. just like some are micro orientated some are macro, there are other factors like game sense and whatnot. maybe this is why nestea, mc and other are doing good in sc2 but not in bw. only time will tell, when players like flash and jaedong arises in sc2. i do like the easier mechanics of sc2 definitely, however i dont agree with the changes they made when it comes to easier units to use like colossus and early/mid game micro limiting abilities. the game just feels unfinished(which it is) and hopefully the next two expansions will make the game good as it can be.
I think you'd be someone that I can share a drink or two together with, I also dislike the functionality of say fungal and force field which are micro limiting abilities. Oh yeah I also hate Colossus, And I really hope they some how bring back mine 3 nuclear bombs that costed me 75 minerals and came with a vulture as a side dish
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United States10100 Posts
SC2 fans think that SC2>>>>> BW. thus in return, all we can do is anti troll them. seriously, without the popularity of BW, there would be no SC2. just putting that out there.
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On July 29 2011 10:36 Blasterion wrote:
Ok just to demonstrate my stance on this
1.I love both BW and SC2, I want neither to die
2.If I am forced to take a side, I do side with SC2
3.BW is more complex on mechanics
4.I do not think BW is a superior game
5.SC2 is simpler interms of mechanics
6.I do not think SC2 is a superior game
7.I do not bash either games
8.I do not bash players for playing either or both games
9.I some what keep up with the Brood War scene thru my friends
10. I really hate it when people tell me that I am playing a worse game than Brood War
I'll have to say my stance on this is the same as this o o ...
except #9 where I look up the tournament results myself // watch the tournaments WITH GSL at the same time :D ><
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I've overcome it, but for a long time I was really resistant to SC2. There was this great edifice being torn down and people were acting like it was the best thing in the world. It was something dear to me for quite some time and it was being cast off for a game that was, at the time, kind of crappy and poorly played. TL changed a lot too, and suddenly what had been the primary focus was sidelined. I still get a little twinge every time I quickly type something into TLPD and end up with all these noname SC2 players. Naturally these things are going to cause frustration.
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To sum up this thread, some people are dicks. Don't be a dick.
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I'm a big fan of both games. I follow the SC2 scene religiously (at least in terms of results) and try to catch all the good streams be they competitions or first-person streams. At the same time, I'm a die hard BW fanboy who worships Bisu like most SKT1 fanatics.
While the trolling/hostility is hurting both communities, I tend to agree that there should just be a clean split.
I dunno if I'm cynical, seeing all the comments from both sides, but it's quite unrealistic to expect the scenes to understand each other. This isn't a simple game vs game thing, it's a generation gap that's as wide as the gulf of Mexico.
On one hand you have the BW-only fans. I'm pretty sure most have tried SC2, and because it didn't feel quite right from a BW mindset, it was a disappointment. More so when the early days of SC2 was mostly cheesing, whining, and player bashing. Additionally, the BW wash-outs moved to SC2 and became deities. It's a little hard to explain to a Jaedong fan that Zergbong is now the undisputed best Zerg (and probably player) in the SC2 scene because the gap between them in BW was huge.
More than this, they've gotten used to BW games that are incredibly exciting whether short or long. BW is quite intense, especially the micro involved. Even a simple tank snipe with goons is incredibly exciting to see. You have no idea how many goons will go down, whether the tank will be killed, and what will happen after. Now transpose that kind of feeling throughout 30 minutes of skill (micro, amazing multitasking/multi-pronged attacks) and genius (game sense, Flashhacks, cool build orders), and you have a gloriously amazing game. Not all games end up that way, but ultimately when things fall into place it is an incomparable experience (see: Flash v Jaedong WCG game 2 Tau Cross).
On the other hand you have the SC2-only fans. A lot of them have no experience with competitive Broodwar. When the SC2 scene exploded post-beta, they finally found what they were looking for - a game to call their own. I think BW-only fans have failed to consider this. You were once like them too! Back then, there was no thriving gaming scene (a little of quake and CS maybe). When Lim Yo Hwan picked up that mouse, he made reality what was only a dream for most of us. Don't you remember that feeling? Discovering BW? That's what SC2 fans are feeling now. Sure, a lot of them are quite obnoxious about it, but then so were we, when talking about C & C, AOE, etc.
Again, the correlation follows: SC2 games used to be short cheese fests, determined primarily by micro and build orders. But now, there have been some amazing games. And even in the cheese games there's a growing excitement. Huk v Moon final match in Dreamhuk was incredibly tense (to see if Huk would hold off the 6 pool). There are plenty of games that have showcased the potential of SC2. It's not there yet. Far from it, I think. But it IS getting there. And when it does, given a chance, I think even a BW die-hard could appreciate the game, and begin imagining their own heroes stepping up to a new challenge to reassert their skill in another medium. Still, SC2 is completely unripe compared to BW so only time will tell.
TL DR:
The divide necessarily exists and will stay there for quite some time. However, the disdain for the "other" game is more apparent than real. It exists, yes, but is driven by certain subjective things like bad feelings, pessimism, and the absence of an attempt to appreciate the other community. That will be hard to deal with cause of the gamer generation gap, but it can be overcome.
SC2: please respect the history of YOUR game, and what built the foundations for an amazing, thriving scene. Also appreciate BW in all its "ugly" beauty. In these dark hours of BW, don't jump into these forums exultant that your scene is "winning." It will. Right now though, SC2 is a mole to BW's mountain.
BW: please respect the feelings of SC2 fans. They've found their Broodwar. It's not your place to chastise them for having what you think are inferior players, inferior games, and whatnot. You are Michael Jordan, and you'll just have to learn to pass the torch to the Kobe Bryants and Lebron James and let them deal with the burden of trying to be the next YOU. Your shadow is large enough.
EDIT: In the end I managed to convince myself that there SHOULDN'T be a split, LOL.
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This thread has turned into SC2 people defending SC2 against a phantom BW elitist... in the BW section. I don't understand that. Do people really lose sleep over the fact that people don't like their X favorite game?
Its been a year+ since SC2 release and I don't know many old BW vanguards that didn't give SC2 a try (hell we were all stoked). Some people stuck to it, some didn't like X aspect of it and just came back to BW, is that really so hard to accept?
I mean if you like SC2 that is great and hope the best for you. But calling out everyone that dislikes SC2 and chose to stick to BW "elitist" and "hostile" is just silly.
I played the beta from start to finish, and couldn't get into it. I thought they removed too many of the micro tricks that gave BW unit's their charm (tekken goons, muta micro, reaver/shuttle) and were replaced with very lifeless units, and removed far too much macro. I like the mechanics of BW, it lets me choose when I want to play a micro heavy game or a macro game and rewards superior play (the feeling of crushing the terran army with never ending zealot trains <3)
I like watching pro BW players play the game with their own personal flair (Best's macro / Fantasy's vultures) and playing at a level that 99.9999% of BW players will never ever reach, its amazing.
I dunno, I love BW and I think its the best. Do people disagree, sure. Do I really want to read SC2 defense threads in the BW section, not really. If other people enjoy SC2, its fine with me but I think its very arrogant to come to the BW section to preach about the glories of the SC2.
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Although with due respect caladblog in my opinion your example of saying we are michael jordan and they are kobe byrant let's put it to perspective basketball it self hasn't change in any way it is played did the hoops get bigger and has the stand become much shorter so you can slam dunk all day ? . I don't think so Sc2 is a much watered down version of bw much easier in term of mechanics very friendly to any users who are interacting the interface compared to the MICHEAL JORDAN in bw who are dealing with so much difficulties in handling micro and mechanic on the fly to pull of that moment that WOW in the game you have been seeing in any bw game . Sorry but it's hard for me to swallow a game that it's not even ready to receive our torch not when they haven't gone through what we had to win a single game in bw . Sc2 is not the successor that we are looking for.
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On July 29 2011 11:31 Sawamura wrote:
Although with due respect caladblog in my opinion your example of saying we are michael jordan and they are kobe byrant let's put it to perspective basketball it self hasn't change in any way it is played did the hoops get bigger and has the stand become much shorter so you can slam dunk all day ? . I don't think so Sc2 is a much watered down version of bw much easier in term of mechanics very friendly to any users who are interacting the interface compared to the MICHEAL JORDAN in bw who are dealing with so much difficulties in handling micro and mechanic on the fly to pull of that moment that WOW in the game you have been seeing in any bw game . Sorry but it's hard for me to swallow a game that it's not even ready to receive our torch not when they haven't gone through what we had to win a single game in bw . Sc2 is not the successor that we are looking for.
@ wassbix behold, your phantom elitist
What I read
Your game is watered down, it's easier, anybody can be good, Brood war is harder there for you all suck.
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On July 29 2011 11:36 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 11:31 Sawamura wrote:
Although with due respect caladblog in my opinion your example of saying we are michael jordan and they are kobe byrant let's put it to perspective basketball it self hasn't change in any way it is played did the hoops get bigger and has the stand become much shorter so you can slam dunk all day ? . I don't think so Sc2 is a much watered down version of bw much easier in term of mechanics very friendly to any users who are interacting the interface compared to the MICHEAL JORDAN in bw who are dealing with so much difficulties in handling micro and mechanic on the fly to pull of that moment that WOW in the game you have been seeing in any bw game . Sorry but it's hard for me to swallow a game that it's not even ready to receive our torch not when they haven't gone through what we had to win a single game in bw . Sc2 is not the successor that we are looking for. @ wassbix behold, your phantom elitist What I read Your game is watered down, it's easier, Brood war is harder there for you all suck.
Did i expressly said that sc2 or all other suck I am merely stating the fact as it is hard for you to swallow it down ? Sc2 is easier down right in terms of mechanics compared to bw bring any sc2 scrubs to bw and try playing it against a pro let me see a 4 v 1 flash i don't think you can even graze him at all.
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EPT
