Hey guys I'm interested in knowing how many people here were led to watch professional BW because of SC2. In other words, I'm looking for some sort of "gateway" effect similar to how marijuana supposedly leads to heroin (jokes). But yeah, the reasoning works as follows: BW was intimidiating for those alien to RTS. SC2 introduced many new people to RTS. Most of these people play and watch sc2 exclusively. But there may be a few who were led to watch to BW in this way.
There may also be those that were led away from WATCHING bw because of sc2. (this vote is not about playing but watching).
Whatever the case, please vote in this poll! It's a small part of a larger argument I'm gonna write about later. I'll use this as some statistical evidence.
Thanks and please don't make this about BW vs SC2.
edit: sorry, new poll for clarity's sake.
Poll: SC2's effect on watching BW
SC2 has had no effect on my WATCHING BW (648)
54%
SC2 introduced me to WATCHING BW (365)
30%
SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW (187)
16%
1200 total votes
Your vote: SC2's effect on watching BW
(Vote): SC2 introduced me to WATCHING BW (Vote): SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW (Vote): SC2 has had no effect on my WATCHING BW
explanation of the poll options:
-option 1: You never watched BW before. You played SC2. You started watching pro BW because you had a newfound understanding of RTS. -option 2: You USED to watch pro BW. You played SC2. You no longer watch pro BW because you find it boring compared to SC2. -option 3: Your viewing may have increased or decreased. Or you may never have watched and continued not watching.
I think you need to add a 3rd option: SC2 had no effect on my BW watching (this could either mean you watched it before and continue to watch, or you didn't before and still don't).
On June 26 2011 23:25 Sayle wrote: I think you need to add a 3rd option: SC2 had no effect on my BW watching (this could either mean you watched it before and continued to watch, or you didn't before and still don't).
On June 26 2011 23:25 Sayle wrote: I think you need to add a 3rd option: SC2 had no effect on my BW watching (this could either mean you watched it before and continue to watch, or you didn't before and still don't).
On June 26 2011 23:25 Sayle wrote: I think you need to add a 3rd option: SC2 had no effect on my BW watching (this could either mean you watched it before and continue to watch, or you didn't before and still don't).
yeah i definitely thought about this but i'm more interested in extremes. LIke being wholly introduced or completely turned off. Middle ground becomes kinda sketchy because I don't think a non-English broadcast of BW is comparable to an English broadcast of SC2. The additional variable of language makes things less comparable.
SC2 made me watch less BW since both takes up time. SC2 also killed my interest in E-sports in general. I quite enjoyed the occasional DotA or BW games, now I had an overdose and quit for a while.
On June 26 2011 23:25 Sayle wrote: I think you need to add a 3rd option: SC2 had no effect on my BW watching (this could either mean you watched it before and continue to watch, or you didn't before and still don't).
yeah... the ambiguity of the statement is why i kinda wanted to avoid that "no effect" option. Because both options are pretty significant... but then there's the confounding variable of language in those middle ground options. but whatevers.
I feel like this should be made in the SC2 forum, only because I don't believe you will get accurate polls in the BW forum asking about SC2, just my opinion. Regardless, I played SC2 since beta, it made me watch more BW if anything though, because the BW pro scene > SC2 pro scene , forevah.
On June 26 2011 23:38 GGzerG wrote: I feel like this should be made in the SC2 forum, only because I don't believe you will get accurate polls in the BW forum asking about SC2, just my opinion. Regardless, I played SC2 since beta, it made me watch more BW if anything though, because the BW pro scene > SC2 pro scene , forevah.
that might be true. since it's positioned in the BW section, there might already be a natural bias right? Maybe i could get someone to move it to SC2 for me... or maybe even general thread. I'll PM a mod later
I'm quite curious about the results of this poll and quite interesting in this topic too. So I just hope the thread stays opened long enough with civil discussions and not ignorant and pointless bashing of any kind.
I also agree that the poll could add few more options. For those people on who SC2 had no effect of their watching of BW as Sayle said, and also for those people who SC2 turned away from BW at first, but came back to watching BW later.
I watch more sc2 now because there is more content, but most of the time they are in the background and I enjoy the commentators. I get more hyped for BW matchups and usually drop everything and watch them with popcorn and snacks =)
Sorry, but I think this is going to be really weak evidence. People who vote in polls and people who don't vote in polls are not equal demographics. You can't assume that people who vote in polls are representative of the large number of people who don't, let alone people who read threads with this title, let alone people who visit the BW forum or TL at all.
SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW
This option is especially useless. How many people who have been turned away from watching BW by SC2 are still reading the BW forum? As much as I love the idea of rigging polls to make BW look good, it's simply too biased. To make an effective online survey, we would have to make the poll mandatory to write for everyone who logs in, and even then we're not getting the lurkers. What I'm saying is... polls on this site are for fun, they're not really viable statistical evidence. After accounting for criticisms and flaws, there isn't too much that can be said. The best you could say is that you have a tally of users who've moved to BW from SC2, to show evidence that it is happening, but the comparison to your other options would still be invalid.
Sorry, but I think this is going to be really weak evidence. People who vote in polls and people who don't vote in polls are not equal demographics. You can't assume that people who vote in polls are representative of the large number of people who don't, let alone people who read threads with this title, let alone people who visit the BW forum or TL at all.
This option is especially useless. How many people who have been turned away from watching BW by SC2 are still reading the BW forum? As much as I love the idea of rigging polls to make BW look good, it's simply too biased. To make an effective online survey, we would have to make the poll mandatory to write for everyone who logs in, and even then we're not getting the lurkers. What I'm saying is... polls on this site are for fun, they're not really viable statistical evidence. After accounting for criticisms and flaws, there isn't too much that can be said. The best you could say is that you have a tally of users who've moved to BW from SC2, to show evidence that it is happening, but the comparison to your other options would still be invalid.
The issue of pertinence is exactly that (moved to BW from sc2). That's like 95 percent of the reason why i want this poll, to show that sc2 can potentially create a new field of BW watchers by introducing them to the concept of RTS where they may have previously been oblivious.
All your other concerns are 100 percent warranted. This won't be like the basis of whatever argument i'm presenting, just a small informal part i want to add on the peripheral.
Note: in terms of real statistical evidence, or at least an attempt at one, I will be attending BW matches and (if I can get permission) distribute a poll that will attempt to classify what demographics are going to watch live BW games, namely female vs male and BW players vs non players. If i do this and get some solid data i will share that with u
Sorry, but I think this is going to be really weak evidence. People who vote in polls and people who don't vote in polls are not equal demographics. You can't assume that people who vote in polls are representative of the large number of people who don't, let alone people who read threads with this title, let alone people who visit the BW forum or TL at all.
SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW
This option is especially useless. How many people who have been turned away from watching BW by SC2 are still reading the BW forum? As much as I love the idea of rigging polls to make BW look good, it's simply too biased. To make an effective online survey, we would have to make the poll mandatory to write for everyone who logs in, and even then we're not getting the lurkers. What I'm saying is... polls on this site are for fun, they're not really viable statistical evidence. After accounting for criticisms and flaws, there isn't too much that can be said. The best you could say is that you have a tally of users who've moved to BW from SC2, to show evidence that it is happening, but the comparison to your other options would still be invalid.
The issue of pertinence is exactly that (moved to BW from sc2). That's like 95 percent of the reason why i want this poll, to show that sc2 can potentially create a new field of BW watchers by introducing them to the concept of RTS where they may have previously been oblivious.
All your other concerns are 100 percent warranted. This won't be like the basis of whatever argument i'm presenting, just a small informal part i want to add on the peripheral.
this poll has 0 statistical relevance
the only 2 relevant responses should be:
SC2 induced me into watching BW SC2 did not induce me into watching BW (with your target demographic being people who start off watching SC2 but not BW)
the 3rd option (SC2 has had no efffect on my watching BW) just skews the percentage scales because the targeted demographic (people who are watching BW and not SC2) is completely different from the first one. If you really want to include this option you should instead create two separate polls:
One asking SC2 watchers whether SC2 induced them into watching BW and the other asking BW watchers whether SC2 induced them into watching SC2 over BW..
As of now the three options are creating a more than 100% response rate with the 3rd option, which only applies to BW spectators, skewing the percantages.
In any case posting this in the Broodwar forum is useless since people who have been watching only SC2 all along will not click on this thread in the first place.
yes sc2 introduced me to watch bw, and get into that seen, know the 10 year old history of bw proleague in korea, reading so much about the different players and bonjwas over the time. I find the bw skill still greater than sc2 so it's more impressive to watch over a game that has evolved over so many years. Watching hyung joon becomes a pro gamer made me even a bigger bw fan and huge fan of MBC Game hero.
I've started watching some broodwar, mostly MSL and OSL. I never actually played BW, only SC2, so I'm not nearly as knowledgable of BW as I am of SC2, but I still enjoy watching it.
On June 27 2011 00:08 Copymizer wrote: yes sc2 introduced me to watch bw, and get into that seen, know the 10 year old history of bw proleague in korea, reading so much about the different players and bonjwas over the time. I find the bw skill still greater than sc2 so it's more impressive to watch over a game that has evolved over so many years. Watching hyung joon becomes a pro gamer made me even a bigger bw fan and huge fan of MBC Game hero.
Now if only all of the TL posters in SCII forums would think like you there would be so much more peace and less BW v SCII flame wars.
SC2 introduced me to TL, which in turn introduced me to ESPORTS. I'd been playing BW for years, so it was easy to get into, I simply did not realize it existed up until then.
I wonder if there are any other people in my particular situation.
Played a bit of BW as a child and upon hearing about sc2's development went to find out some info, and stumbled upon korean proBW. Became completely absorbed in BW ever since. This all happened during about mid 2009. Played sc2 during beta. Not worth 60 bucks...
In the end i have almost 3k posts and i can say with confidence over 90% are in the BW subforum.
Sorry, but I think this is going to be really weak evidence. People who vote in polls and people who don't vote in polls are not equal demographics. You can't assume that people who vote in polls are representative of the large number of people who don't, let alone people who read threads with this title, let alone people who visit the BW forum or TL at all.
SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW
This option is especially useless. How many people who have been turned away from watching BW by SC2 are still reading the BW forum? As much as I love the idea of rigging polls to make BW look good, it's simply too biased. To make an effective online survey, we would have to make the poll mandatory to write for everyone who logs in, and even then we're not getting the lurkers. What I'm saying is... polls on this site are for fun, they're not really viable statistical evidence. After accounting for criticisms and flaws, there isn't too much that can be said. The best you could say is that you have a tally of users who've moved to BW from SC2, to show evidence that it is happening, but the comparison to your other options would still be invalid.
The issue of pertinence is exactly that (moved to BW from sc2). That's like 95 percent of the reason why i want this poll, to show that sc2 can potentially create a new field of BW watchers by introducing them to the concept of RTS where they may have previously been oblivious.
All your other concerns are 100 percent warranted. This won't be like the basis of whatever argument i'm presenting, just a small informal part i want to add on the peripheral.
this poll has 0 statistical relevance
the only 2 relevant responses should be:
SC2 induced me into watching BW SC2 did not induce me into watching BW (with your target demographic being people who start off watching SC2 but not BW)
the 3rd option (SC2 has had no efffect on my watching BW) just skews the percentage scales because the targeted demographic (people who are watching BW and not SC2) is completely different from the first one. If you really want to include this option you should instead create two separate polls:
One asking SC2 watchers whether SC2 induced them into watching BW and the other asking BW watchers whether SC2 induced them into watching SC2 over BW..
The only problem i have is that I don't think BW broadcasts are comparable to SC2 broadcasts, mainly because of quality, time and language. That is why i'm only interested in the extremes: fans wholly introduced to bw froms c2, and fans compeltely turned off because of sc2.
i don't like the third option much either... but i hope that with it i can clump all viewers, whether it be BW or SC2, to one total. I don't want to differentiate between the two in the middle ground because of the confounding variables, especially language.
I had no interest in BW before playing SC2 but started following the BW scene loosely for a while after that, although my interest has declined somewhat since then. I read up on the history of BW and still keep up with results but I very rarely watch it (which I was doing a bit, for a while).
Was never into BW, when SC2 came out I did not start watching BW. I do read some news, know some basics but I'm not interested enough to watch the actual games.
On June 27 2011 00:49 cuppatea wrote: I had no interest in BW before playing SC2 but started following the BW scene loosely for a while after that, although my interest has declined somewhat since then. I read up on the history of BW and still keep up with results but I very rarely watch it (which I was doing a bit, for a while).
just out of curiousity, do u think having proleague games professionally broadcast in english + consistently translated interviews would have helpd maintain ur interest in pro BW?
It's a bit difficult for me to vote on this poll. For me, watching BW was what led me to watching SC2. However, now since i'm watching and playing SC2, I don't watch BW anymore. The only BW I watch would be the high profile matches (e.g. MSL and OSL finals), while I would watch as many SC2 tournaments as possible.
But I guess the closest poll option for me is this: SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW
What about if you started watching bw in anticipation for sc2? I got into starcraft watching HD cast bw games while waiting for sc2 to come out. Now I watch both. I think bw is a bit more exciting to watch but at the same time sc2 has a lot of tournaments and a big foreigner scene so it's easier to take interest in.
On June 27 2011 00:49 cuppatea wrote: I had no interest in BW before playing SC2 but started following the BW scene loosely for a while after that, although my interest has declined somewhat since then. I read up on the history of BW and still keep up with results but I very rarely watch it (which I was doing a bit, for a while).
just out of curiousity, do u think having proleague games professionally broadcast in english + consistently translated interviews would have helpd maintain ur interest in pro BW?
Not really because I have more interest in SC2 and there's so many events happening for that game that I can barely keep up with them.
Also, I was more of a fan of Flash than BW, really. My interest was at it's height when there was still the question of "will Flash become a bonjwa?" or "can Flash beat Jaedong in a bo5?" or even "can KT win a Pro League?" Now all those questions have been answered the BW pro scene just seems less interesting to me.
On June 27 2011 00:08 Copymizer wrote: yes sc2 introduced me to watch bw, and got me into the scene, know the 10 year old history of bw proleague in korea, reading so much about the different players and bonjwas over the time. I find the bw skill still greater than sc2 so it's more impressive to watch over a game that has evolved over so many years. Watching hyung joon becomes a pro gamer made me even a bigger bw fan and huge fan of MBC Game hero.
Now if only all of the TL posters in SCII forums would think like you there would be so much more peace and less BW v SCII flame wars.
haha thanks, but yeah im a huge fan of bw while i like watching sc2 equal as much . also sorry about my all of my grammar mistakes in the beginning, i should've read it through but i hope you know what i mean. (editing typos now). I actually find it sad i didn't find tl.net many years ago and not until now so i could follow the build up of the players and season after season
On June 27 2011 00:49 cuppatea wrote: I had no interest in BW before playing SC2 but started following the BW scene loosely for a while after that, although my interest has declined somewhat since then. I read up on the history of BW and still keep up with results but I very rarely watch it (which I was doing a bit, for a while).
just out of curiousity, do u think having proleague games professionally broadcast in english + consistently translated interviews would have helpd maintain ur interest in pro BW?
In China, this theory has already been tested and the result is looking nice. From what I've seen in the viewing numbers, number of Chinese BW views has increased 30-40% since GSL issued copyright notices and shut down all GSL restreams.
Much of this increase in views is because of their main caster. That caster's BW knowledge is unlike anything I've ever seen in the entire history of BW(perhaps with the exception of Kor caster but I don't speak Kor). When this Chinese caster moved to SC2 GSL casting, BW views fell.
A great example of the importance of a good caster can be seen in a recent series in BW (I forgot which one and can't be bother to look). In the LR thread here in TL, there were a lot of posts that agreed it was a boring series. However, in the Chinese site that host these VoDs. The same series have a very high rating. This is all because the casting is making the viewer see the game in a "pro"'s eyes.
So yes, Casters are V important in any e-sport broadcast.
Option 2, I guess. I don't necessarily find watching BW boring, but I personally do find the SC2 scene more interesting right now. There's just so much more readily available content to find in SC2.
I was a somewhat casual viewer of the BW proscene though, watching moletrap, klazart, diggity and those guys on YouTube as well as Day9 dailies. The only thing I tuned in for live were the OSL/MSL finals as well as the TSL. And I don't think I ever hit anything above D+ on iCCup, so I was never a particularly skilled player either.
Anyway, yeah I don't watch as much BW as I did before SC2.
I dont like the wording. It would be option B for me but "You no longer watch pro BW because you find it boring compared to SC2" doesnt seem too fair. I find BW more exciting but I play sc2 and therefore watch sc2 to keep up with strategies and such. If the day was twice as long, I would still watch BW but for now, sc2 took over. D:
Used to watch damn near every bw game, now I watch maybe one or two per week.
I always watched some BW, but now I watch a lot of older games of players that I find interesting. I can say SC2 got me considering of learning more about BW than before.
On June 26 2011 23:55 d_so wrote: The issue of pertinence is exactly that (moved to BW from sc2). That's like 95 percent of the reason why i want this poll, to show that sc2 can potentially create a new field of BW watchers by introducing them to the concept of RTS where they may have previously been oblivious.
I don't know what you will use this "data" for, but I fit perfectly into the category you are looking for!
I had Brood War on Nintendo 64 for a long time. I didn't know of the existence of Proleague or even Team Liquid until last year. My friend told me about sc2 and I was excited! We only recently god good internet so this was to be my first opportunity for an online multiplayer game. A bloke in the Escapist (a general games website I visited) forums recommended HD for beta videos, which led me to Husky, who crapped on about TL in most of his videos.
I watched and followed much of the first GSL on TL user restreams and was SEVERELY disappointed in the games. It just so happened that I came across the Bigfile MSL writeup while extremely bored during one of the games and was intrigued. I watched the first game of this proleague season, SKT v KT, with Best taking out Flash in the ace match and never looked back!
I never would have found TL or known anything about the Korean scene if not for sc2. I will never go back to sc2 however. The games are far more interesting, the players more entertaining, plus the people in the Brood War forum make it great and I can't stay away.
i kinda started to watch even more broodwar (korean vods) since the release of SC2
i watch SC2 since i think its interesting, and the whole world is in it, but as i saw more and more of it, i came to "conclude" within myself that the game wasnt as interesting as broodwar. i watch broodwar duo to my passion for broodwar, and since ive been following the scene for 10years my self, so im quite able to understand the game.
this might just be because i havent really gotton into SC2, and i dont want to make another "bw" experience, im too old for that now.
OP is concerned about better sc2 commentating, I mean, English casts availability. Having heard numbers of sc2 casts of supposedly good games by noted commentators I cannot appreciate enough the Korean casters' enthusiasm and quality. I just like them more even though I don't understand Korean. Let's see how sc2 will develop after expansions but so far I keep watching BW over sc2.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
... SC2 has too many explosions and too much going on at once to even tell whats going on, BW is clean and crisp and way easier to understand whats going on -_________________________-;
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
It took some time for me too to see what was going on because of the bad graphics, but you'll get used to it better and better over time, just keep watching and learning.
I remember i bought the bw anthology pack for sc2 hype but i couldn't play pass 2 missions because of the bad graphics, i clearly admit that but as time proceeded i got better and better and now i find it easier to see whats going on in bw than sc2 actually, not so much flashy lights and effects.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
I do kind of agree with this, I've tried to watch SC2 many times but when battles happen I have no idea what the hell is going on. In Brood War the battles and engagements are easier to understand, for me anyways. Graphics don't make the game, but too much graphics and flashiness and it's a bit of a turning away point for me.
Ive been playing SC2 since the 2nd week of beta and had no experience with BW except for like a week or two when the sc2 beta was down i tried playing on iccup but couldn't get really into it, until about 4 months ago i slowly started playing more BW, playing both games at once for the first month or so until eventually i stopped playing sc2 altogether. Now i completely hate sc2 and cant believe anyone who played BW would ever want to play sc2 instead.
I still watch BW but much less than before, I used to watch almost every game at one point, now I only watch BW if I catch SKT1 game or if I heard that a game is very good. Now I watch more SC2 than BW.
i found out about firebathero and hyungjoon becomes a programer which is pretty much all i needed.... bw games suck most of the time because there is no english commentary
Before playing/following sc2, i knew about brood war(it was my first game ever) but I had no idea about the Korean pro scene, so sc2 introduced me to team liquid and through team liquid I got interested in pro scene brood war.
I watched broodwar on occasion before the advent of Starcraft 2. However, once starcraft 2 came out I began to watch a lot more broodwar than the (very) occasional game I used to catch.
I picked option 1 (introduced) since it's the closest for me, though a more accurate option would be "increased"
I used to watch some a couple years back, then just kinda stopped, but when SC2 came around and I got hooked watching that, it just made sense to get back into BW too.
SC2 introduced me to TL. The featured BW writeups/articles introduced me to BW. Live report threads and liquipedia introduced me to players and strategies.
I'm a fan of both games, but BW just seems more refined in it's gameplay.
sc2 just doesn't cut it. Not enough action, or epic drops and stuff. It's always about who has the strongest 1a army most of the time. BW for the WIN!!
In one aspect yes. I got into BW when I heard about starcraft 2 in 2009. I watched the first battle report and thought sc2 looked awesome (I do enjoy playing sc2 and play it a lot, watch it a lot). So I played bw to prepare for it. About 2 weeks after playing bw I learned about proleague and starleagues that were streamed and watched those as much as I could (Still do if my favorite players are playing if I can).
I still watch bw today, and bw to me is a lot more entertaining to watch today as well but thats because starcraft 2 cheese is still so powerful that players can use it alot but it is getting better.
Now I watch both and play sc2 but sc2 was definitely what got me to play bw for the first time in 2009 and I really wish I had played it sooner though so that I could have hopefully been at a high rank. :D
I knew a little about the bw pro scene before sc2 but had no idea how to watch live streams or where to get vods other than through the gom classic. It wasn't until after sc2 was announced/came out that I found teamliquid and started to follow the bw scene more.
i played bw for maybe 200 games (5 years ago?!) but switched back to my fps i was competing at that said time. i knew about TL back then and about progaming in korea but i just was occupied with different things. now is started SC2. i sometimes watch SC1 streams featured on TL. it´s fun and i wish i´d stick to play it back in the day. but i feel really stupid when watching it because i forgot everything about it and have no clue and korean commentating for example does not exactly help me out ;D
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
While I disagree with you wholeheartedly, I would just like to state that this thread has nothing to do with graphics, or arguing over which is better.
I dislike the polling method and find that it will prove close to nothing as it is not covering an impartial demographic (what do you expect BW forum goers to say...), and that the choices in the poll are opinionated (Don't caps anything, and give the audience all possible desired choices, hell a 1-5 system would do better than this).
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
You're probably right. I remember I hadn't played BW for a few years and when I tried it again I was like "Wow, I remember these graphics being so much better when I was a little kid!"
Since i found out about TL when the Sc2 beta came out,i started playing BW for fun and became totally hooked on the BW proleague.Bisu was so baller today<3
SC2 has effected me watching BW as regularly. I'll always love the BW scene more, but being able to understand [English] commentaries, even if they're slightly less effective, has lead to me watching more and more SC2.
SC2 made me appreciate professional Brood War even more. Unlike SC2, I am just in awe of what the pros can do. When I watch SC2 I just want to steal builds to copy. When I watch SCBW I am looking to watch something I cannot replicate.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
I started watching BW a year ago. It didn't seem dated to me.
The graphics in BW are very clear. New graphics doesn't necessarily make it easier to watch. I have no trouble playing NHL96 on SNES, but NHL97 on PS1 makes my eyes hurt, because it came from the first era of 3D-games, so it's obviously not as well done as the graphics from the late 2D era.
There is an option missing like "SC2 made me watch less BW" because the second option is too extreme for my case. I still watch BW from time to time on Nuke and Dejavu's channel. Any other recommendable BW casters?
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
Its not unwatchable but,it really is a hard adjustment if you never watched these kind of games before. It took me 6 months to start understanding what is going on,at first i gave up because its quite hard to get into BW right now if you don't dedicate yourself too it,but when I started watching some moletrap casts i started to understand many things that i couldn't understand before and I think that is the prime reason that there's less and less influx on new BW watchers.
When the Sc2 Beta came out day9 with King of the Beta and Husky were my gateway to Starcraft. Unfortunately people do not have those kind of things for BW here anymore.
I feel like people on the BW forum are more likely than not to watch Brood War.
On June 27 2011 05:10 JustPassingBy wrote: There is an option missing like "SC2 made me watch less BW" because the second option is too extreme for my case.
I think this might be more common. I cut down on BW quite a bit after SC2, because I actually like that the game is sloppy and unevolved, because I like to be surprised by evolutions in the metagame and I like watching it grow.
I think a more interesting poll would be who watches both games, and how is their time skewed.
SC+BW<333 but me bad / no comp [..decade pause..] SC2? -> SC1 memories -> Liquipedia / Day9's BW podcasts -> TL -> Korean pro-scene -> So I was right all along, that SC is the best game ever!
So for me both directions are valid: BW->SC2 and SC2->BW. And I would always be thankful to Day9 for his patient podcasts; all Liquipedia contributors; and the TL community. But definitely, it could be said that the announcement of SC2 (before beta) brought me back to my early unfinished passion for Starcraft, and helped me learn about the Korean pro-scene; I've watched all OSL finals etc.
The first time I watched bw was back when tasteless was commentating gomtv after having seen the slayer documentary. I only watched a few games per year up til like 2009.
Now that I've played sc2, it made me appreciate the play much more. I kinda only watch flash and jaedong (with some bisu games here and there), but I can now pay more attention and realize much more what they're actually doing.
I used to just watch it as a typical casual player perspective rather then having an idea what's going on, and it's way more interesting now. I recently started watching some games of nada, savior and iloveoov that I haven't seen in a while, and to get a feel of the differences in playstyle.
On June 27 2011 04:40 TheKefka wrote: Since i found out about TL when the Sc2 beta came out,i started playing BW for fun and became totally hooked on the BW proleague.Bisu was so baller today<3
Best post yet. Been watching BW since 2006, and that will never end even though I watch sc2, I only watch sc2 semi/finals matches. I only like seeing the best of the best play.
From reading a few responses in this thread I think the best advice I can give to people who want to see bw but think they arent enjoying the experience because its hard to follow or dont understand whats going on is to follow the game with the LR thread open.
They look quite different from the SC2 LR threads. A lot less people leads to less spam posts...older established game means there arent imba whiners (well you still get people raging when their favourite player loses but thats a good thing because they dont blame the game) and most people that post and discuss the strats and whats happening in game know a lot about it (well not every single one of the posters...heck I posto in LR threads so ^^). That means that reading and watching you will soon understand everything (at least everything you need to follow a game and know who's ahead and most of the times why).
Watched BW for a long time (longtime lurker of TL, finally registered in 09) and SC2's release really made me cut down on my BW watching. I still watch all the big matches and finals but I watch a whole lot less now than I used to cause I'm busy watching SC2.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
Unwatchable in what way? You can always clearly distinguish team colors, units are generally spaced out and don't clip into each other, death animations are exaggerated and either bright blue, bright red, or bright yellow, and units and buildings are always brightly lit, regardless of the map. I think you're just talking about a bias some people have against low resolution 2D, because the problem isn't visual clarity. Or perhaps people new to the game are just not able to immediately recognize unit silhouettes, but that's a barrier to watching SC2 as well.
Now, if you want to talk about (borderline) unwatchable, for me it's SC2 ZvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns on a low resolution stream with health bars enabled. Absolute torture.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
Unwatchable in what way? You can always clearly distinguish team colors, units are generally spaced out and don't clip into each other, death animations are exaggerated and either bright blue, bright red, or bright yellow, and units and buildings are always brightly lit, regardless of the map. I think you're just talking about a bias some people have against low resolution 2D, because the problem isn't visual clarity.
If you want to talk about (borderline) unwatchable, it's SC2 ZvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns on a low resolution stream with health bars enabled. Absolute torture.
Hmm I actually agree that the colors could be brightened and made less "realistic" for team paint jobs, but all in all the game isn't as fun to watch as an unbiased new viewer. I tried watching some pro BW games - don't get me wrong, the players were probably much more skilled and whatnot than SC2 players - but it just wasn't as good of a game to watch. I can see why SC2 is gaining viewers and BW seems to be losing them (according to the numbers on streams, youtube, tournys, etc - not including in Korea/live)
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
Unwatchable in what way? You can always clearly distinguish team colors, units are generally spaced out and don't clip into each other, death animations are exaggerated and either bright blue, bright red, or bright yellow, and units and buildings are always brightly lit, regardless of the map. I think you're just talking about a bias some people have against low resolution 2D, because the problem isn't visual clarity.
If you want to talk about (borderline) unwatchable, it's SC2 ZvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns on a low resolution stream with health bars enabled. Absolute torture.
Hmm I actually agree that the colors could be brightened and made less "realistic" for team paint jobs, but all in all the game isn't as fun to watch as an unbiased new viewer. I tried watching some pro BW games - don't get me wrong, the players were probably much more skilled and whatnot than SC2 players - but it just wasn't as good of a game to watch. I can see why SC2 is gaining viewers and BW seems to be losing them (according to the numbers on streams, youtube, tournys, etc - not including in Korea/live)
For you maybe. I started watching BW in 2007, kinda stopped watching it around the time that I started playing the SC2 beta but over time professional sc2 fustrated me to the point where I only watch BW now. For me it's a far better game to watch(aside from the 40 minute+ TvTs).
Also for SC2 gaining viewers is because it's a hot new thing. People are dumb sheep who only like things that are contemporary and have this weird disdain for older generation graphics even though to me BW looks perfect.
I think you have to have played the game. BW graphics are very clear and clean but it's still hard for someone who hasn't played the game to understand what's going on. The units look very foreign and the spells even more so.
When I first started watching BW I hated mid-late game and special units and abilities because it got confusing. When I became more accustomed to the mechanics I had a much greater appreciation for what I saw.
That's why people who have played both games will tell you they prefer bw art design and clarity whereas people who are new to starcraft will be turned off by the graphics.
I played Brood War about 5 years ago against AI and stuff but didn't realise there was much of a community for it until SC2 Beta, when I began watching the SC2 stuff by Husky. Since about 2 months ago till now I've been watching BW more than SC2.
I used to watch pro BW religiously. But after SC2 launched i switched over and started watching the SC2 pro matches. I still watch BW now and then when i see it pop up, but otherwise not.
My soul does feel a sting every now and then though...
On June 27 2011 06:11 Dalguno wrote: How do you guys recommend learning/watching BW? What are some good streams?
GomTV classics with tastless
Commentators:
Cholera Diggity Moletrap Klazart Nukethestars
i would really recommend Nukethestars out of all of those guys. Maybe not so much educational but he is very funny and eloquent and definitely the most entertaining
SC2 has had no effect on my level of BW watching. To even only watch highly recommended games at the highest level requires a lot of time for either game, so I never watch SC2.
I watched the BW scene before sc2 came out. When the pro-gaming scene was up and coming for SC2, I tried my best to get myself into it but the gameplay is just really bland and uninteresting compared to BW. I think it's mainly because of 1) blatantly clear balance issues and 2) not as much randomness as BW. BW had all these random factors such as spider mines, potential for dud scarabs, and retarded unit AI that might be really frustrating for players but are really entertaining for spectators. In the end, I stuck to being an avid BW-viewer.
On June 27 2011 06:11 Dalguno wrote: How do you guys recommend learning/watching BW? What are some good streams?
tip: you can't really learn from watching professional BW. Sure, you can try your best to mimic pro strats but if you don't understand the logic behind them or know how to tweak them to surprising turn of events, it's kind of pointless. If you want to learn, just mass games on iccup.
After playing SC2, I started watching less BW sadly. It's very regrettable actually.. I actually had so much fun back then watching starcraft at 5am. ><"
I remember I overslept for the OSL final between Flash and Effort and I felt like my world was crumbling lol. Then I looked at the results and I was so emo for like a week cause I wasn't there to cheer for him. ><"
I still watch the major events though like the recent MSL finals and when some big teams play each other.
After watching more and more BW and understanding it better it does seem to be getting more clear rather than the first fuzzy stuff that it once was to me. I also generally like reading this form to (aside from the elitism) opposed to the SC2 ones. So yes, SC2 has did introduce me to BW but I do regret not knowing about SC1 12 years ago, it feels as though them years were wasted lol
I sadly didn't even know this community existed, until Sc2 led me here. And I was a little BW junkie when I was 12-13. Ha so funny to think about.
I try and have a BW stream on if I can find one and I'm not already watching an SC2 Tournament. There are few SC2 streamers I would watch over most of the BW ones, part of it is that I want to support them so they keep doing it, but I like watching BW a lot too. And watching it can help your basic fundamental strategies (like when to attack, and from where). Savior streams are the best hahaha.
i did not know there was a bw scene until i got into sc2
at first i was like why do they still play it, it's old! but now that i have been exploring it i see how good it is to watch and how imo sc2 has not reproduced much of if any of the quality bw has
so yes sc2 got me into watching bw and i wish i had known about it long ago
For those looking to start watching BW, theres proleague almost every day and unlike the SC2 streams its actually possible to have a conversation in the chat and people will be more than happy to explain stuff.
I find that most things look pretty similar so I dont see how it can be unwatchable if you play SC2 a bit. Most units and buildings look the same with the exception of the few things unique to each games.
On June 27 2011 08:16 Louuster wrote: For those looking to start watching BW, theres proleague almost every day and unlike the SC2 streams its actually possible to have a conversation in the chat and people will be more than happy to explain stuff.
I find that most things look pretty similar so I dont see how it can be unwatchable if you play SC2 a bit. Most units and buildings look the same with the exception of the few things unique to each games.
Ow yeah, I watch BW on a regular basis, if you want to get into BW a bit look on the calander when the events take place, Proleague or OSL/MSL you can most likely find me over at Nanashin his stream, I am by no means a BW expert nor do I have really indepth knowledge about the game like koreasilver of Kiante has for example but I know a thing or two.
On a sidenote, what I like about BW is sort of the fact that everyone knows each other around here, or most do anyway.
On June 27 2011 08:02 EpiK wrote: I watched the BW scene before sc2 came out. When the pro-gaming scene was up and coming for SC2, I tried my best to get myself into it but the gameplay is just really bland and uninteresting compared to BW. I think it's mainly because of 1) blatantly clear balance issues and 2) not as much randomness as BW. BW had all these random factors such as spider mines, potential for dud scarabs, and retarded unit AI that might be really frustrating for players but are really entertaining for spectators. In the end, I stuck to being an avid BW-viewer.
On June 27 2011 06:11 Dalguno wrote: How do you guys recommend learning/watching BW? What are some good streams?
tip: you can't really learn from watching professional BW. Sure, you can try your best to mimic pro strats but if you don't understand the logic behind them or know how to tweak them to surprising turn of events, it's kind of pointless. If you want to learn, just mass games on iccup.
I disagree. Back in 2009 when I first started my iccup ladder grind (ugh), it took me about 3 months to get from d- to d. During that entire timeframe, I only occasionally, and not very seriously, watched proleague/osl/msl.
Anyway, I felt that I was stuck at D and I basically gave up iccup grinding and turned my attention to solely watching BW. After 2-3 months of watching and analyzing games, I decided to give iccup a shot again. I felt like I was a completely different player, at least in the strategic sense (obviously my mechanics didn't get any better) and I shot up to C in just another 3 months.
Keep in mind when I took my iccup hiatus to focus on watching games, my intention wasn't even to improve my gameplay, it just happened subconsciously.
However, massing games on iccup is also mandatory =P
edit: for those that haven't played on iccup, the ranking system progresses like so: d-,d,d+,c-,c and so on.
No effect on me... Though in the past months I have watched relatively less Brood War because of tests and DotA. And now in the summer I can't stay up as late, so I only ever catch the earliest sets of the 13:00 matches.
On June 27 2011 08:16 Louuster wrote: For those looking to start watching BW, theres proleague almost every day and unlike the SC2 streams its actually possible to have a conversation in the chat and people will be more than happy to explain stuff.
I find that most things look pretty similar so I dont see how it can be unwatchable if you play SC2 a bit. Most units and buildings look the same with the exception of the few things unique to each games.
Proleague almost every day... at 5 in the morning =/
Living in America, I love watching NBA and football. I am not so into baseball, so two years ago around this time (when NBA ends and football is not playing yet), I was bored out of mind and wanted to watch/play something interesting.
I googled when SC2 would come out and it eventually led to TL. It changed my life. Being Korean American, I always loved starcraft and was aware of the progaming scene (I knew of Boxer, Savior, Jaedong, Nada, and Bisu), but this was when I just fell in love with it. I was amazed by how awesome TL was and couldnt be more regrettable for missing out for all those years.
After SC2 came out, of course I picked up the copy and been playing ever since. Right now I watch both BW and SC2 and i gotta say BW is more exciting to watch. Having said that SC2 has gotten a lot better to spectate since the release, and I know the potential is there to become even better with two expansions (I just dont like one huge ball vs ball fight -> anticlimatic ending, but this is another topic).
To be honest, yeah I know the units and fights are more discernable in BW, but i gotta say the graphic is wayyyy too outdated. I personally wish someday, Blazzard will remake BW with better/updated graphic (Hek, it can be 5 years from now, I don't care).
In the end, I really want both scene to succeed. I love starcraft. Ahhh, and to answer your question? Hmm I dont know ..
I used to watch Proleague/OSL/MSL all the time (live). But it put a toll on my school work, so I stopped watching, though I do enjoy watching live BW. I don't watch as much. Alternatively although SC2 isn't as "fun" to watch. the GSTL has provided the closest thing to proleague so, yea i watch that. So no SC2 had no affect on me watching BW. School did. :/
Even when I was super into brood war, I couldn't watch it with Korean commentary. I might want to try it again now that I'm used to watching the minimap to see what the commentators miss. I also didn't watch a lot of proleague, because I was a bit stupid and didn't realize how awesome they were (I might seriously just drop individual leagues entirely and watch BW Proleague and GSTL).
I wish KeSPA would set up an official English stream/English VODs, rather than me having to wait for Nukethestars. GOM has been aggressively courting foreign viewers for SC2, and there's no reason KeSPA shouldn't at least hire like Torch or somebody. It'd probably be worth it.
(I also wish I could watch a series with Flash in it and have any suspense at all over who would win, but obviously that's not Flash's fault)
Edit: I just tried to watch Michael(OD)'s stream, but Korean love songs are a deal-breaker :/
Are there any good "personalities" to follow, or even streams where people talk about what they're doing? I feel like there's not a lot of good educational stuff for BW like SC2 has, but that might be my own lack of knowledge. BW in general could probably advertise itself better.
I used to watch pro BW every now and again (was more interested in foreign BW), since the release of SC2 I only sporadically watch BW but still feel it is the overall more balanced game, which isn't really an option in the polls (as it indicates you find BW boring compared to SC2 which is absolutely not true for me). The hours are also a problem since I live in europe, proleague generally starts around when I sleep and SC2 is far more available in the times I like to watch.
I've watched it since around late 2007, but lately I've been watching SC2 as well. So now I just watch favorite players/important matches, although they keep getting owned by Flash =_=;
If you have trouble with the Korean language used in their commentary, particularly the names written in Hangul - this guide may help you. It's surprisingly simple and logical. Less than an afternoon work. You can then type in Korean using an online keyboard (like this or that) and use google for translations or player reference, or search directly in TLPD in Korean.
Yes. Simply yes. I've always been in love with Esports, starting with Wc3 to being a semi-professional DotA player. though i never got into sc:bw, i eventually got introduced to sc2 and its scene and INSTANTLY fell in love with it. Just for the sake of understanding the love that people feel for starcraft, i felt like i needed to understand sc;bw, and thats how i got here, posting in TL:bw about FlaSh's wrist problems. Thanks blizzard, for creating the best esport scene to ever see the light of day.
On June 27 2011 08:35 flamewheel wrote: No effect on me... Though in the past months I have watched relatively less Brood War because of tests and DotA. And now in the summer I can't stay up as late, so I only ever catch the earliest sets of the 13:00 matches.
yeah i know this is a very real option (that you watch BW less now) and it's not clearly stated in the poll. Part of the reason I didn't make it a poll option though is because of reasons like the one you state, unfriendly broadcast times. There's also the language barrier and the shaky quality. These three reasons make a direct "watch BW" vs "watch sc2" poll nonviable imo
watched bw and will do so in the future, but i am watching less than in the past, only selected games / matches of players i like, few years ago i watched everything :3
sc2 introduced me to the glory that is professional BW. I love watching proleague, its quite exciting!!!
sc2 is getting closer to the level of excitement of BW as strats start to evolve, and players get better with timings and such. I watch them about equally, I'd say.
On June 27 2011 09:10 Ribbon wrote: Even when I was super into brood war, I couldn't watch it with Korean commentary. I might want to try it again now that I'm used to watching the minimap to see what the commentators miss. I also didn't watch a lot of proleague, because I was a bit stupid and didn't realize how awesome they were (I might seriously just drop individual leagues entirely and watch BW Proleague and GSTL).
I wish KeSPA would set up an official English stream/English VODs, rather than me having to wait for Nukethestars. GOM has been aggressively courting foreign viewers for SC2, and there's no reason KeSPA shouldn't at least hire like Torch or somebody. It'd probably be worth it.
(I also wish I could watch a series with Flash in it and have any suspense at all over who would win, but obviously that's not Flash's fault)
Edit: I just tried to watch Michael(OD)'s stream, but Korean love songs are a deal-breaker :/
Are there any good "personalities" to follow, or even streams where people talk about what they're doing? I feel like there's not a lot of good educational stuff for BW like SC2 has, but that might be my own lack of knowledge. BW in general could probably advertise itself better.
i watch less bw now some of my viewing has been replaced by sc2 , but i feel stupid because half the time i'll watch like an hour of sc2 and then be like "all these games sucked" T.T
I've started using the recent recommendation thread more.
EffOrt retiring and CJ not feeling the same led to me watching less, though SC2 being there as an alternative definitely filled that niche. I still watch from time to time and when EffOrt officially starts his comeback it may become more frequent.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
Its not unwatchable but,it really is a hard adjustment if you never watched these kind of games before. It took me 6 months to start understanding what is going on,at first i gave up because its quite hard to get into BW right now if you don't dedicate yourself too it,but when I started watching some moletrap casts i started to understand many things that i couldn't understand before and I think that is the prime reason that there's less and less influx on new BW watchers.
When the Sc2 Beta came out day9 with King of the Beta and Husky were my gateway to Starcraft. Unfortunately people do not have those kind of things for BW here anymore.
The difficult adjustment has nothing to do with graphics. When i first started watching proBW i also took a long time to understand what was going on due to various factors like camera movement and unfamiliarity with the units.
Your initial post was a slant against BW graphics making the game hard to understand and then when shown evidence to the contrary you changed your argument to it's difficult to understand with english commentary.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
Unwatchable in what way? You can always clearly distinguish team colors, units are generally spaced out and don't clip into each other, death animations are exaggerated and either bright blue, bright red, or bright yellow, and units and buildings are always brightly lit, regardless of the map. I think you're just talking about a bias some people have against low resolution 2D, because the problem isn't visual clarity.
If you want to talk about (borderline) unwatchable, it's SC2 ZvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns on a low resolution stream with health bars enabled. Absolute torture.
Hmm I actually agree that the colors could be brightened and made less "realistic" for team paint jobs, but all in all the game isn't as fun to watch as an unbiased new viewer. I tried watching some pro BW games - don't get me wrong, the players were probably much more skilled and whatnot than SC2 players - but it just wasn't as good of a game to watch. I can see why SC2 is gaining viewers and BW seems to be losing them (according to the numbers on streams, youtube, tournys, etc - not including in Korea/live)
For you maybe. I started watching BW in 2007, kinda stopped watching it around the time that I started playing the SC2 beta but over time professional sc2 fustrated me to the point where I only watch BW now. For me it's a far better game to watch(aside from the 40 minute+ TvTs).
Also for SC2 gaining viewers is because it's a hot new thing. People are dumb sheep who only like things that are contemporary and have this weird disdain for older generation graphics even though to me BW looks perfect.
For you maybe, as well.
"Also for SC2 gaining viewers..." You sure about that? I'm curious as to how you have access to the exact reasons behind the ever-increasing viewership. Consider a career in finance because you're basically a god among mortals. All I did was point out a trend - not attempt to rationalize the reason behind it. I know better than that.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
Its not unwatchable but,it really is a hard adjustment if you never watched these kind of games before. It took me 6 months to start understanding what is going on,at first i gave up because its quite hard to get into BW right now if you don't dedicate yourself too it,but when I started watching some moletrap casts i started to understand many things that i couldn't understand before and I think that is the prime reason that there's less and less influx on new BW watchers.
When the Sc2 Beta came out day9 with King of the Beta and Husky were my gateway to Starcraft. Unfortunately people do not have those kind of things for BW here anymore.
The difficult adjustment has nothing to do with graphics. When i first started watching proBW i also took a long time to understand what was going on due to various factors like camera movement and unfamiliarity with the units.
Your initial post was a slant against BW graphics making the game hard to understand and then when shown evidence to the contrary you changed your argument to it's difficult to understand with english commentary.
I think he's saying that he has trouble understanding what's going on(which is why he needs english commentary - the korean commentary doesn't really clarify much). If you switch from SC2 you would likely have this problem. Most of the units are similar, but all of the builds/timings/playstyles are MASSIVELY different.
As for the casters it would be: "Oh, and now he's getting his gas after his third hatchery, so he's likely going 3 hatch muta. This would give him map control, and allow him to get his third base and Hive tech up." A SCII player would not know what 3 hatch muta is, nor would they know the hive timings(or even why you need to go hive).
On June 27 2011 11:22 p4NDemik wrote: EffOrt retiring and CJ not feeling the same led to me watching less, though SC2 being there as an alternative definitely filled that niche. I still watch from time to time and when EffOrt officially starts his comeback it may become more frequent.
Yea this too, Once EffOrt is back and sKyHigh will stop slumping, i would probably watch more.
I think a lot of potential BW watchers might not watch it because they get caught up with trying to understand all the build orders and strategic details. I got into watching it simply because the action is exciting and I feel like a lot of casual watchers are similar too. Knowing unit abilities, spells, and basic attack timings are really all you need to enjoy watching BW from a totally spectator standpoint - similar to enjoying watching soccer or football without needing to know every little strategy the team is trying to do. This is the beauty of starcraft and the reason why it continues to be popular in korea; you don't need to play BW in order to enjoy watching it.
Yeah, I mostly watch SC2 and play it, but every now and then I go watch BW. I personally have almost no clue what is going on, I know what all the units do since I used to play against the AI (lol) a long time ago but that is more or less it. I know a couple of the more common builds, but none of the subtle details or anything. I just find it entertaining to see the insanity with them microing multiple fights at the same time, and laughing when units glitch out.
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
Its not unwatchable but,it really is a hard adjustment if you never watched these kind of games before. It took me 6 months to start understanding what is going on,at first i gave up because its quite hard to get into BW right now if you don't dedicate yourself too it,but when I started watching some moletrap casts i started to understand many things that i couldn't understand before and I think that is the prime reason that there's less and less influx on new BW watchers.
When the Sc2 Beta came out day9 with King of the Beta and Husky were my gateway to Starcraft. Unfortunately people do not have those kind of things for BW here anymore.
The difficult adjustment has nothing to do with graphics. When i first started watching proBW i also took a long time to understand what was going on due to various factors like camera movement and unfamiliarity with the units.
Your initial post was a slant against BW graphics making the game hard to understand and then when shown evidence to the contrary you changed your argument to it's difficult to understand with english commentary.
I think he's saying that he has trouble understanding what's going on(which is why he needs english commentary - the korean commentary doesn't really clarify much). If you switch from SC2 you would likely have this problem. Most of the units are similar, but all of the builds/timings/playstyles are MASSIVELY different.
As for the casters it would be: "Oh, and now he's getting his gas after his third hatchery, so he's likely going 3 hatch muta. This would give him map control, and allow him to get his third base and Hive tech up." A SCII player would not know what 3 hatch muta is, nor would they know the hive timings(or even why you need to go hive).
That's my point exactly. I also began watching proBW in late 2009. When i started i didn't even know what a reaver was. I spent months watching moletrap, diggity, cholera, nuke, rise commentaries until i graduated to korean commentary. It was never an issue of graphics. I daresay people switching from sc2 would have it easier than me who started from ground zero. I remember clearly the days where 2 rax and 10 rax would confuse the shit out of me... ok hes building 2 barracks..... ok hes build a barracks how the fuck is that 10 rax?
I have a friend that started with sc2 and then started watching bw and he liked watching bw more than sc2 even though he had no idea what was going on xD
On June 27 2011 12:20 Archers_bane wrote: SC2 had no effect on my Broodwar watching. I started watching BW pro scene in 2008, enjoyed it pre-Sc2 and still enjoy it now post Sc2.
P.S.
D_so, is that you from dota? dxd/ih/tdt all those leagues...your name sounds very familiar
Starcraft 2 introduced me to the e-sports pro scene. I played BW in the past but payed no attention to the scene. A few months after Starcraft 2 I started learning more about some past BW players and current ones. I think that and those Hyun joong becomes a progamer episodes got me into watching BW. After I watched a few team league streams I was convinced BW is more entertaining to watch and requires more skill which made me appreciate it even more.
I used to play lots of single player BW back in 2004-2006, but I found that the proscene existed in 2009. I started following SC2 since the beta, but the beginning of this year I started following BW as well... I'm in kind of a personal crisis right now because I can't decide what game I want to focus on... I like Sc2 because it is a fresh start for me and I could hang on it for a long time, but it's not that fun to play because most games end in 1 big battle and there are no epic gamebreaking skills like BW had... BW is much more fun to watch and I would like to play it, but the game engine and control is still putting me off.. I feel if I could overcome those, it would be much more fun to play. On the con side, there is not nearly as much content available (streams, casters, tournaments) for BW as there is in SC2...
And I'm also tempted to learn WC3, dammit Why can't I choose...
You should add another option: Do watch sc2 because you watch broodwar. I think there's where most people who check the brood war forums are coming from.
On June 26 2011 23:41 Mereel wrote: sc2 had an effect on me watching more bw because it showed me how much better bw is.
So many ppl quoted this because it speaks the truth.
I was a casual BW watcher since 2003, but after all the dispute, disband, and turbulence in the scene, I actually appreciate more BW and become a true fan of the amazing RTS!
On June 27 2011 01:46 Daimai wrote: I started playing in SC2, but I just can't get into watching BW. The bad graphics make it hard to understand what's going on for a newbie.
That is what I don't get , despite the ''outdated'' graphics everything has much more clarity in BW. whenever a big battle occurs in SC2 its fucking lasorsz and shit all over my screen I can't see jack shit, its 2 balls engaging in a space the size of a cardbox.
Not true. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to bw. But for a new spectator, bw is unwatchable.
The number of people in this thread who started watching BW after Sc2 came out likely disagree with your claim that BW is unwatchable.
Its not unwatchable but,it really is a hard adjustment if you never watched these kind of games before. It took me 6 months to start understanding what is going on,at first i gave up because its quite hard to get into BW right now if you don't dedicate yourself too it,but when I started watching some moletrap casts i started to understand many things that i couldn't understand before and I think that is the prime reason that there's less and less influx on new BW watchers.
When the Sc2 Beta came out day9 with King of the Beta and Husky were my gateway to Starcraft. Unfortunately people do not have those kind of things for BW here anymore.
The difficult adjustment has nothing to do with graphics. When i first started watching proBW i also took a long time to understand what was going on due to various factors like camera movement and unfamiliarity with the units.
Your initial post was a slant against BW graphics making the game hard to understand and then when shown evidence to the contrary you changed your argument to it's difficult to understand with english commentary.
I think he's saying that he has trouble understanding what's going on(which is why he needs english commentary - the korean commentary doesn't really clarify much). If you switch from SC2 you would likely have this problem. Most of the units are similar, but all of the builds/timings/playstyles are MASSIVELY different.
I feel like this aspect is often understated. People on the BW forums tend to treat SC2 like "My First Starcraft", but it's a different game, in ways both large and small that add up.
As for the casters it would be: "Oh, and now he's getting his gas after his third hatchery, so he's likely going 3 hatch muta. This would give him map control, and allow him to get his third base and Hive tech up." A SCII player would not know what 3 hatch muta is, nor would they know the hive timings(or even why you need to go hive).
Having said that, it's not THAT extreme. An SC2 player wouldn't know the phrase "3 hatch muta" (though they could probably guess it involves 3 hatches making mutalisks), but they understand concept like map control and the need to tech up. Most casters say "3 hatch muta" and that's it because he expects the audience to know. If a caster goes "He's going 3 hatch muta to get map control to safely tech to hive", that's a sentence that an SC2 player can understand. If the SC2 player is good, he can even understand WHY Mutas give map control.
Where they get lost is a lot of little tiny thinks that add up to a general sense of confusion, especially timings. BW bases take a lot longer to mine out. It takes longer for that first bit of aggression or harassment to start. Terrans don't mine bases out faster than other races. Hive tech comes a lot sooner (SC2 zerg gets a hive basically to finish and opponent off). Etc etc etc. I watched a Jaedong vs Fantasy game today, and it felt kind of like SC2 (especially since Jaedong went mass muta vs bio with some tanks), but...off. Everything just felt kind of uneasy and wrong, because all the timings were weird to me, even though I watched BW hardcore for a year and a half and have played like 500 games on ICCUP, just because I wasn't used to it.
Oddly enough, the guy instinct of someone used to SC2 seeing BW for the first time was a sense that the BW players were doing it wrong, even though that obviously doesn't make sense. The players won't be doing standard hallmarks of good play in SC2. I'm watching an SC2 game on my other stream, and the Terran is multi-dropping the Protoss constantly, while attacking in another point entirely. That's just standard SC2 TvP nowadays (it's a code A game). When I watch BW, I don't see that kind of thing, because the BW players are doing other really impressive things I don't understand well enough to appreciate.
I mean, I'm only speaking from my experience, but I think the problem isn't that SC2 player don't understand BW in broad terms. We do. It's the little details we're missing. I understand how hard it is to macro and the mechanics, but I don't really feel it as much as I think I need to. I used to. I know I can again eventually. But right now...enh.
I think, honestly, it just comes from experience, and commentators who get excited about thinks BW fans take for granted. Nukethestars is fantastic, but I think BW needs another Klazart, or a Day9, who's good and making things sound exciting and making you understand why you should be excited.
On June 27 2011 12:20 Archers_bane wrote: SC2 had no effect on my Broodwar watching. I started watching BW pro scene in 2008, enjoyed it pre-Sc2 and still enjoy it now post Sc2.
P.S.
D_so, is that you from dota? dxd/ih/tdt all those leagues...your name sounds very familiar
haha yeah it is me.
archers_bane? + you had a brother right? =P
yeah "Audmeister" haha good memory...do you still play dota? Or did you move over to HoN like many of us.
anyways, I feel like if you watched BW for a long time before SC2 came out, the moments in SC2 when there is a battle and to show little micro-skills are just boring compared to the BW scene. Maybe I'm biased or I just really appreciated seeing crazy macro/micro skills where you cant just group all units/buildings.
On June 27 2011 12:20 Archers_bane wrote: SC2 had no effect on my Broodwar watching. I started watching BW pro scene in 2008, enjoyed it pre-Sc2 and still enjoy it now post Sc2.
P.S.
D_so, is that you from dota? dxd/ih/tdt all those leagues...your name sounds very familiar
haha yeah it is me.
archers_bane? + you had a brother right? =P
yeah "Audmeister" haha good memory...do you still play dota? Or did you move over to HoN like many of us.
anyways, I feel like if you watched BW for a long time before SC2 came out, the moments in SC2 when there is a battle and to show little micro-skills are just boring compared to the BW scene. Maybe I'm biased or I just really appreciated seeing crazy macro/micro skills where you cant just group all units/buildings.
couldn't find any of Nada's splits >_>, stuff like this is becoming pretty common though.
There are so many other micro techniques that people can/should/sometimes do use in SC2, it's kind of annoying that most people try and act as if every top Korean is just 1-aing around the map. There is a lot of progress to be made, especially when it comes to micro, but that's because players aren't doing it, not because it doesn't exist.
On June 27 2011 12:20 Archers_bane wrote: SC2 had no effect on my Broodwar watching. I started watching BW pro scene in 2008, enjoyed it pre-Sc2 and still enjoy it now post Sc2.
P.S.
D_so, is that you from dota? dxd/ih/tdt all those leagues...your name sounds very familiar
haha yeah it is me.
archers_bane? + you had a brother right? =P
yeah "Audmeister" haha good memory...do you still play dota? Or did you move over to HoN like many of us.
anyways, I feel like if you watched BW for a long time before SC2 came out, the moments in SC2 when there is a battle and to show little micro-skills are just boring compared to the BW scene. Maybe I'm biased or I just really appreciated seeing crazy macro/micro skills where you cant just group all units/buildings.
yeah dude i still play dota. i play on korean pubs or sometimes i play with my lil bro on dotacash but i lag to crap. HoN... looks gay haha.
if only the dxd forums had the kinda brainpower TL has. Sigh
SC2 lead me to TL, leading me to click on some of the streams - stumbled upon some matches, and now I watch whenever I'm browsing/TBLS are playing lol Brought back memories of watching my brother play BW when I was younger. The sounds are so nostalgic
My case is unique, I think. I've played SC/ BW since I was a little kid (like 6-7 years old) but SC2 beta was what led me eventually into knowing TL, the rest of progaming (I know WMF before I knew of progaming) and watching BW.
On June 26 2011 23:48 stork4ever wrote: I watch more sc2 now because there is more content, but most of the time they are in the background and I enjoy the commentators. I get more hyped for BW matchups and usually drop everything and watch them with popcorn and snacks =)
go both scenes!
This is pretty much my feeling exactly. Although when a player I like is playing I get equally excited between games when they win, that said I enjoy watching BW way more, there's just not enough of it.
i used to watch pro bw. i don't watch it as much anymore, but not because it's boring compared to sc2. it's just that proleague and GSL are often on at the same time, and gomtv doesnt lag as much compared to bw streams (no offense).
No SC2 had no effect on my BW watching but its the other way around. BW made me watch SC2 for a while but it was really boring so now i rarely follow SC2 games anymore.
On June 27 2011 12:20 Archers_bane wrote: SC2 had no effect on my Broodwar watching. I started watching BW pro scene in 2008, enjoyed it pre-Sc2 and still enjoy it now post Sc2.
P.S.
D_so, is that you from dota? dxd/ih/tdt all those leagues...your name sounds very familiar
haha yeah it is me.
archers_bane? + you had a brother right? =P
yeah "Audmeister" haha good memory...do you still play dota? Or did you move over to HoN like many of us.
anyways, I feel like if you watched BW for a long time before SC2 came out, the moments in SC2 when there is a battle and to show little micro-skills are just boring compared to the BW scene. Maybe I'm biased or I just really appreciated seeing crazy macro/micro skills where you cant just group all units/buildings.
couldn't find any of Nada's splits >_>, stuff like this is becoming pretty common though.
There are so many other micro techniques that people can/should/sometimes do use in SC2, it's kind of annoying that most people try and act as if every top Korean is just 1-aing around the map. There is a lot of progress to be made, especially when it comes to micro, but that's because players aren't doing it, not because it doesn't exist.
SC2 re-energized me into the scene after a 9 or 10 year gap. I watched some of the old WCGs and other early stuff. I knew who boxer was. Then I found other games (The Korean MMO Ragnarok online, silly me.) for a long time. SC2 brought me back to paying attention to starcraft as a whole, which brought me here, which made me regret ever turning away from starcraft at all!
I don't watch a lot of BW, but that's partially for lack of english commentary.
Maybe I should just start commentating over proleague matches... Hmm, yes, that's a thing.
I watch mostly SC2 now, but I continue to watch some BM matches because of two reasons:
1) Names. There is nothing like "Jaedong vs Flash" in SC2 yet. If I hear "Jeadong versus Flash" in any context, I want to see that match. If it is "Bisu vs. someone else" I am also eager to watch it.
2) Meaning. Every little move in korean BW pro matches has a meaning. Sometimes I even forget that I am actually watching Starcraft, I just see the game.
Well Sc2 brought me back into BW so to speak. I was pretty active in playing BW between 2001-2004 and then ofc also followed Boxer Garimto and Nada. Then I kinda stopped following the BW scene and playing the game. And with the advent of sc2 I said to myself "Wow how cool was sc1 maybe I should give it a try" and it sucked me in back again :D Although I dont play that much anymore.
I began watching Starcraft in 2008, Starcraft 2 had nothing to do with it. How often I watch BW has always been changing, from several series a day to rarely anything (in May and April for example) and SC2 didn't really have an impact on that. If anything, I began watching more BW matches, because I've gotten more and more into esports during the past 3 years.
I got into the BW scene back in 2007 just after the announcement of SC2 so I guess you could say that SC2 got me into watching BW, I played the game when I was little but never in a competitive way. After SC2 came out I more or less only watched that but nowdays I watch less and less of SC2 and more and more of BW, it simply is much more enjoyable to watch.
I started to comeback to BW when SC2 was announced. I played and watched BW again just because I'm too excited to play SC2. After 3 years with BW, sc2 was released, but I got disappointed and was too attached to BW to switch so I played BW again after finishing the WoL campaign. I'll buy the 2 remaining expansions just for the story and I won't watch pro sc2 unless BW is over before sc3, which is unlikely.
I lost a bit of interest in spectating broodwar when SC2 came out, because of all the hype and excitement around it. During this time bw was at a stage of status quo where the future of the whole korean broodwar scene was uncertain. I started watching some SC2 to see if it could ever replace the greatness of bw. I found the result positive but not by any means satisfying enough as a replacement. When the scene was kicked back into life (starleagues starting and legal processes being somewhat solved) I went back to watching bw and I still love it!
I am an ex-wc3 player. I directly switched to starcraft 2 when the beta came out and I decided to buy brood war one month before the beta came out to prepare myself a bit. I really didn't like broodwar because all the stuff "easier" on wc3 wasn't there: easier unit control group, better interface etc...
So I played starcraft 2 and I went into teamliquid. On teamliquid I saw a lot of informations about broodwar and I was interested in it. I now regulary watch some broodwar matchs (for example flash's match) and it is because of starcraft 2 !
SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW I was still watching during the beta! and a few bigger tournaments after release. but then i just... hadn't played in so long... day9 stopped doing dailies on bw... i didn't have to get up early to watch sc2.... one thing lead to another.... i... i'm so sorry... its too late for me...
I came for SC2 and started doing Liquibet for BW because there was nothing to do in SC2 Liquibet but GSL then. Eventually I started looking watching old vods to get some history and now I watch proleague almost every night while I'm staying up to see GSL. Nice synergy IMO.
I bought SC2 at the end of 2010. Main reason was BW being one of my favorite games when I was younger (primary school, early 2000s), I could watch for hours older guys playing BW in LAN at PC bangs (there were many of them back then). I played mostly on my computer vs AI or at the friend's basement where 2-3 computers were connected and we would 1v1. After acquiring SC2 and discovering TL, I began to follow BW too. BW is great, proleague is great, players' skill is great, ... and seeing BW after almost decade felt great ... so, yeah ... I can say that SC2 introduced me in watching pro BW. BW (and korean SC2) is usually streamed at morning so while I'm having breakfast I sometimes watch proleague.
On June 28 2011 00:39 ComaDose wrote: SC2 turned me completely away from WATCHING BW I was still watching during the beta! and a few bigger tournaments after release. but then i just... hadn't played in so long... day9 stopped doing dailies on bw... i didn't have to get up early to watch sc2.... one thing lead to another.... i... i'm so sorry... its too late for me...
haha don't apologize. There are a lot of people like you. No problem with that
Late 2009 i watched some broodwar because i was playing it again. Then once sc2 beta came out i only watch starcraft 2. Its not that i find it more interesting etc its because i play starcraft 2 more and find that i can kind of implement things that i watch, whereas BW i sucked.
I dont see the point in playing brood war anymore after it was ported, with the campaign in progress. But I do like watching some of the older games for cool builds like the ayumi build, double armory and 3 hatch muta.
I became interested in RTS from Starcraft 2's release - I went to see what it was all about and started watching a few SC2 pro games. After seeing TLO's play, it became more interesting, and I checked out BW just to compare the two.
I'd say SC2 has had no effect, or at least not directly. I watched BW first and SC2 later. But watching BW, I generally watched english commentated games, now there is very little of that so I don't watch as often. Except I still have to have my Taek-Bang Leessang fix.
The beta announcement led me to SK Gaming, where Thorin had uploaded the TL subs of Oldu Boy, and then I began following BW. I played SC2 in beta some but I prefer BW and play that mostly. And now I moved to Korea, lol. So I can't play SC2 even if I wanted to.
On June 28 2011 00:39 ComaDose wrote: ... day9 stopped doing dailies on bw... i didn't have to get up early to watch sc2.... ...
i think this is a big thing for a lot of people. there are much fewer english commentators for BW than there were before and if you want the experience of watching it live, you have to stay up until all hours of the night to watch it which is especially hard if you're not a student/actually work.
for me, i watch bw more now than before because i moved to the same timezone as korea and watch it at regular evening hours now.
When I heard Starcraft 2 was coming out, I was really looking forward into getting the game. Today, I think watching Starcraft II videos is NOT NEARLY as fun as watching Broodwar games. Now, Broodwar games are WAY more fun and intense than Starcraft II.
Both are fun games to watch spectator wise, though I love the insane Korean BW commentators (don't really like english casters really, because they don't go as crazy).
Though FPVODS of BW >>> SC2.
[Rant] I currently watch quite alot of SC2 streams and I am very disappointed on the lack of mechanical skill required. Having an APM of 80 is enough to be a top level player. Everytime I watch a top players SC2 stream I am always unimpressed. When watching an FPVOD of Jaedong, you are completely mesmerized at the speed and insane multitasking that these guys play at. [/Rant]
But overall both games are fun to watch, I currently watch SC2 exclusively because the scene is so much bigger.
I started watching more broodwar due to sc2. I'd watch occasional games on youtube or whatever and didn't really follow bw. when sc2 beta came out i started watching streams of proleague/msl/osl every night possible. The biggest factor was teamliquid and the fact that bw players had such great execution when they played in comparison to the play of early sc2 players.
I watched some BW long before SC2 release, now I wacth more BW than ever, thanks to Moktira and his fast upload, sometimes on live, but the time doesnt fit at all. I have watched more than 100 pro games in SC2 and even a regular game in BW is better than those, so no change for now.
sc2 introduced me to bw. BW guys can be hit or miss on whether or not they are supportive of newcomers or completely belligerent to so-called "sc2 newbs"... makes watching bw lame somtimes.
I used to watch every now and then and after SC2 started getting close to release, I would watch tons of BW and I love watching live PL now. I think they are both great and I missed out on a lot of BW, so I like watching it even now that I don't play it anymore.
I used to watch BW occasionally but never played, then I got into SC2, but the ball vs ball of units kinda pissed me off and I went back and watched BW and it looked much more interesting and engaging because it reseambled a constant power struggle instead of a ceasefire till 200/200.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/8/1123770181.jpg)
but thats a good thing because they dont blame the game) and most people that post and discuss the strats and whats happening in game know a lot about it (well not every single one of the posters...heck I posto in LR threads so ^^). That means that reading and watching you will soon understand everything (at least everything you need to follow a game and know who's ahead and most of the times why).
