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it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
- William Shakespeare
OMG! Flash this! Flash that! This fanboyism if really reaching biblical lows. When was something so logical/practical/standard suddenly become almost messianic. Do we ever hear people say  Canata this!  PokJu that! OMFG Lomo maphack! whenever they do something... Actually standard?
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyway.
Why the barracks (yellow circle) position is standard
1. Nature of TvT - TvT is all about stability and position. Unless one player totally f***ed up, no TvT ends early. That is why if you are not going econ based 14CC or the safer still econ oriented rax FE, the way to go is proxy rax becuase:
- as mentioned above, there are not game ending threats in TvT early game
- The proxy rax, in the middle of the map, has the best chance of fulfilling its role as a immortal scout in TvT
2. Map and a little mind game - a thoroughly defensive race like terran on a 4 player map is always advised to go 14CC. This is the metagame (wow!) that flash took advantage of.
3. Scouting paths: As you can see in the picture below, only a retarded is-it-your-first-time-to-play-BW-where-the-fuck-is-that-scv-going cross map scout (purple) will have discovered it, off fast rax build at that (Not 14CC on 4p maps). In short, the rax was were it is expected to be
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lTtlF.jpg)
3. Anti-"cheese" - please pardon the use of "cheese" here. It is not meant as hardcore cheese as we know it, but merely a convenient label, there being none to describe, this non 14CC build. Anyone who still frets at this after this explanation better get there heads examined, please. Now, among progamers, this is a know strategy in 4p maps, but most go for the routine 14CC build just to increase the odds and to take full advantage of race-based mechanics. Which means, Leta would have gone 14CC or exactly this build as well. By then, the scvs would have met mid map, shook there hands, proceed to that retarded cross map scout, and went one with the day with rax FE or, if one is really brave, 14CC.
Why the scv scouting path is still standard
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IRX6F.jpg)
Here lets breakdown the events chronologically:
1. Yellow line
scv goes straight to proxy rax in the aforementioned standard spot
At this point, there is no give away information yet, but flash has this information
- if Leta is in 1 doing 14CC, flash will have time to get the first marine out and take advantage of BO
- If Leta is in 1 doing rax FE and scouts directly to him at 5, Leta's scv will be in his base by the time his rax finishes
- If Leta is in 1 doing rax FE and scouts at 11, he will meet Leta's scv halfway after he leaves the 7 nat (green line)
(use this same geometry of 3 scenarios if Leta is in 7)
- If Leta is in 11 doing 14CC, he will have marines BEFORE nat becomes operational and Leta has enough economy to match his army count
- If Leta is in 11 doing Rax FE, flash will still have time to mass enough marines before Leta finds out he has no rax in his main, and flash can hold off the slight econ advantage Leta has by pressuring him
- All diagonal scout will lead to flash build being exposed, and will result in adjustments
2. Green line
- Between 2 areas (11 and 7) of equal distance from his proxy rax, flash chose to go 7 (This is blind and flash is simply playing the odds here as Leta could be anywhere).
- This path will give flash the chance to meet Leta's scouting scv if Leta were in 11 or 1.
- If he doesnt meet any scv, or none arrive at his main, 14CC is almost a certainty.
But why did he turn around after arriving at the nat, what if Leta was in 7 after all?
This is still him playing the odds, and nothing out of taking advantage of what he knows already. Leta could be there, but he needed that extra second for his risky BO to work so he went 11.
3. Dark green
At this point, 14CC is a certainty. He already has his marine out toward 1 so he is uncertain only about 7. But this is only relative uncertainty because once the scv and first marine reach their destinations, he will know exactly what's up.
As luck would have it, he found Leta at 11 still finishing his CC in base and rax. This is the timing flash was talking about, and the reason for the turn around at 7. Luck was additionally on his part that Leta didnt build in the nat directly.
What about the timing and luck?
- the time he saved from going up at 7 gave him time to see Leta's main and to check if there is anything unusual (perhaps earlier rax than the usual 14CC timing.) Confirming that there are none, he proceeded with his bunker. All this timing took into account that Leta will not have the army to fend this early disruption off, delaying Leta's economy and making it useless for a while until Leta has the tech and army to establish his natural.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
What about if Leta was in 7?
Then flash would have been in shitload of trouble. The scenario would have been the same as that with Leta at 11, only that he will have enough time than by the time flash proxy marines arrived, Leta would have been mining already with 2+ marines guarding the nat.
What about is Leta was in 1?
If Leta was in 1, flash first marine would have been just enough trouble to delay CC/rax build and give flash time for the bunker at nat.
NOW, why was green route (7 first) is actually the less effective choice
By here, I mean flash should have went to 1 (red line), because:
- going 1 will immediately confirm 1 rax FE from either 1 or 7 because he would either havv met the scv going in the same direction or the scv would have arrived in his base
- if Leta went 14 CC to lift, and he turned around at the nat to go to 7, he is exactly in the same scenario as as he planned, but he will only be a bit later to his plan because his scv will have to return for the bunker. The bunker is still possible because he would have known for sure that Leta was in 11 and send his second marine there to harass before or exactly at the time Leta's FIRST marine was out! Still the odds favor flash in this scenario.
TO Replyers:
No knee jerk blind fanboyism reply please. Provide proof to back your claim. Better yet, run the scenarios, multiple times, like I did, so we can have a rational discussion. Thanks
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Looks interesting. I'll be back to reading this after my cpe midterm..=X
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its pure luck IMO,theres no reason to gamble that big on Leta not spawning at 7. If Leta spawned at 7 and scout clockwise Flash would be screwed....
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I would think even if Leta spawns at 7, Flash won't be any of an disadvantage if he didn't scout the main at 7, just that it would be an even closer call to whether Flash can place down his bunker at Leta's nat.
I don't think it would hurt to scout the middle of the map first for proxy buildings before going left/right/up/down, no?
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On May 14 2011 02:08 sinistral wrote:
I would think even if Leta spawns at 7, Flash won't be any of an disadvantage if he didn't scout the main at 7, just that it would be an even closer call to whether Flash can place down his bunker at Leta's nat.
I don't think it would hurt to scout the middle of the map first for proxy buildings before going left/right/up/down, no?
This is only possible for pre9 rax. or early scout before rax, which are unual in 4p map TvT. on a 14CC, this is virtually unscoutable.
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i dont know why you think this needed its own thread
built rax in middle, scouted in the right direction
what more is there to it?
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Since your korean you should know. English community isnt the only one whos saying flash "map-hacks." The korean commentators (who i believe has more experience in the game than almost anyone in here) gets amazed and even talks about flash having a hidden door way or trick mirror to see his opponents move. Ofcourse their kidding but even thats saying alot since they have to be unbaised towards all the player.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
As seen in one of the interviews or another, flash calculates his scout time. Which means in his practice game he calculated that even if leta was @ 7 oclock he would still be at an advantage. Thats what he been saying for a year now. He always scouts only the expo area in 4 player maps in calculation that even if he misses he would still be at a even. FYI this scouting method has been talked about in one of the program that flash was in, maybe one of the oldboy episodes or maybe the back-talk show in korean air osl part of the episode. (The korean commentator was very speechless at this scouting in this game too)
People saying that Flash uses "hack" isnt new at all and its not only in the english community. The korean commentators (Who has to be unbaised towards the players and has more experience in broodwar than almost anyone in here) even talked about, ofcourse in a joking manner, flash using trick mirrors or hidden panel of doorway to see his opponents move. They been saying playing against him is like having vision on for quiet some time now. Flash gets wins alot of games, and some might call it luck, some might call it practicing alot and as people say "luck is part of the skill"
Finally Havn't you ever put your self in the players shoe. Going up against someone in a live stage where everygame counts towards either winning a starleague or a proleague match. How there is 1000 or more stradegies in each match up. One can cheese, one can FE, one can time push, one can eco cheese. Out of all these Flash usually counters his opponent pretty well and even some of his games, he counters his opponent so well that it looks like he was hacking. Some people might take it too far but you gotta admit that Flash has one if not the best star sense in progaming scene. Also this is a site dedicated to e-sports, and in any "sports" related discussion there are always someone who has a passision for a player or a team.
FYI. im going to include some games that shows Flashs "starsense" and the korean commentators talking about it.
1. Ofcourse Flash vs Leta. commentator thinking that flash scout will just be in letas expo gets speechless after flash goes all the way up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/67914_Flash_vs_Leta
2. Flash vs Snow. There was no reason for flash to scout for proxy gate but he does and the commentators joke about him using trick mirror or secret panel to view his opponents moves
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49288_Flash_vs_Snow
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36423_Flash_vs_Light
4. Another Flash vs Light. This one is luck but it had to be included because it was amazing dropship doding scv. The whole studio was amazed by the play
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49360_Flash_vs_Light
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Flash's application of game theory is amazing to behold.
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3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
That one I'm a bit skeptical of because IIRC, even Light said he could hear the audience. Yes, the booths are sound proof but that doesn't mean it's impossible to notice the outside volume levels. I don't know whether he actually heard anything or not but there's no reason to dismiss the possibility that he did.
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You really have no place in deriding others for fanboyism...
People get excited about their favourite players and over-hype the things they do, there is nothing new in this.
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On May 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote:
You really have no place in deriding others for fanboyism...
Seriously.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221489
I thought your information and research was quite interesting, but your conclusion that Flash was doing nothing special seems kind of petty given how excited you got when Jaedong did a runby vs a bunker rush >.>
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On May 14 2011 03:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
That one I'm a bit skeptical of because IIRC, even Light said he could hear the audience. Yes, the booths are sound proof but that doesn't mean it's impossible to notice the outside volume levels. I don't know whether he actually heard anything or not but there's no reason to dismiss the possibility that he did.
Ech not this again...
1) Light has been known to try and cheese Flash in the past instead of playing straight up.
2) Flash's scouting pattern wasn't THAT abnormal (for him). He was scouting specifically for a proxy, went down near 6, and then back up in the alcove. I'm assuming if he didnt find anything he would have gone to check behind (and above) the min line in the 3rd next.
3) If Light indeed heard the audience, he could have requested a pp instead of only bringing it up after he lost.
4) If Light's booth (i.e MBC's booth) was defective that night for whatever reason (not fully soundproof), that means that all the MBC players before that match had a distinct advantage against the KT players, yet none of them brought up anything about hearing the audience/commentators.
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Honestly, is this some weird thread? Why would anyone think Flash maphacks for serious? He just played a game recently where he scouted an adjacent main, to where he was cross scouted by the opponent, resulting in a follow up cross-scout from Flash's initial scout (finding the opponent as late as you possibly can)
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Belgium6554 Posts
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
I think this thread is just about explaining why flash scouted this way and not another
and as its done by Jaedong fan, what would you expect the tone of this analysis to be? "flash immortal god of starcraft omgomgomg"? but i think nonetheless it's a normal analysis overall. 
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Flash: So good even Jaedong fans are writing articles about his scouting pattern. Truly the best of our generation.
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You should mention something about flash's interview and how he knew leta would know that he abuses the fact that flash doesnt scout mains and that leta would build his CC inside (or something like that)
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Good analysis of Flash's scouting pattern. When we say Flash is map-hacking, it should be obvious that it is a joke. Adding your personal "insults" against Flash fans were completely unnecessary in this thread. Flash throwing down scan on zerg's expansion/stop lurkers or scouting like this in TvT/morphing lurkers which were meant to be hidden/hidden tech/etc. is all about timings+luck. Also, let me say that this was not a proper way to put down Flash fans, as L0thar already explained 
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ZnocK, did you really need to write a massive defensive post about Flash? This thread is to explain the scout pattern, which Flash himself didn't do in the interview. We all know flash is good at predicting things, we could see it in the same game later on even. Your post didn't add anything; What are you even trying to imply, that he 'Starsensed' Leta's starting location? It was lucky and Flash admits himself it was lucky.
Some people blatantly didn't understand why it was done so this is explanation. No need to get mad about it. There was much more examples of predictable and fast responses in that game than the fucking scout pattern, it's sad to even use this as an example. He's calling out fans because people were exaggerating what is just a sensible idea to use.
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On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD
No, he's a JD fanboy. I thought the "Flash Maphack" term came from him scanning hidden tech, expos, hidden lurkers, drops, army movement and stuff at the right exact time, not in his scouting pattern. It is because no other player has that "Map hack" game sense.
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You are seriously annoying.
This is as stupid as if someone in made a thread in 2006 because he took people saying that Savior maphacks literally.
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On May 14 2011 09:33 koreasilver wrote:
You are seriously annoying.
This is as stupid as if someone in made a thread in 2006 because he took people saying that Savior maphacks literally.
Almost as bad as the guy that did a strategical analysis on Jaedong 4 pooling.
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Every time the BW section is rid of an AzureEye and a SuperArc, they are always replaced in due time.
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Japan11286 Posts
Flash doesn't just play the game, but the mindgames as well.
Today, to some degree, I predicted his opening. I feel like sometimes, Terrans playing against me will use the fact that I only scout the natural and put down the CC at the high ground.
There was some luck involved (luck is always in play in any game) in the success of his strategy but the way in which Flash applied game theory and trends against him in his scouting tactic is just brilliant.
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On May 14 2011 09:47 koreasilver wrote:
Every time the BW section is rid of an AzureEye and a SuperArc, they are always replaced in due time.
Yet another crusader heh... Oh well, they come and go...
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Did you make a thread for this because you broke the character limit allowed while responding to a youtube comment?
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On May 14 2011 07:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
ZnocK, did you really need to write a massive defensive post about Flash? This thread is to explain the scout pattern, which Flash himself didn't do in the interview. We all know flash is good at predicting things, we could see it in the same game later on even. Your post didn't add anything; What are you even trying to imply, that he 'Starsensed' Leta's starting location? It was lucky and Flash admits himself it was lucky.
Some people blatantly didn't understand why it was done so this is explanation. No need to get mad about it. There was much more examples of predictable and fast responses in that game than the fucking scout pattern, it's sad to even use this as an example. He's calling out fans because people were exaggerating what is just a sensible idea to use.
You are the only one who understands the OP. I dont know if its GG.NoRe's reputation as a Jaedong licker, or his humor, but really i found this as a sort of "Flash explanation on the scouting pattern explained for dummies". It was meant to explain. The "insults" your saying is done in jest i think (he's a fanboy you know). I could imagine the amount of work done here. It practically covered all possibilities thus making Flash move, which seem spectacular to most, actually explainable, and not that very special. Well still special because others would not have gone the length Flash did, but not that very. Anyway, i see this as a battle of hard-nosed fanboys, but at least the OP did his work. excellent job.
On May 14 2011 03:55 nbaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote:
You really have no place in deriding others for fanboyism... Seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221489I thought your information and research was quite interesting, but your conclusion that Flash was doing nothing special seems kind of petty given how excited you got when Jaedong did a runby vs a bunker rush >.>
HAHA. rabid fanboy GG.NoRe
On May 14 2011 09:33 koreasilver wrote:
You are seriously annoying.
This is as stupid as if someone in made a thread in 2006 because he took people saying that Savior maphacks literally.
On May 14 2011 10:51 Chef wrote:
Did you make a thread for this because you broke the character limit allowed while responding to a youtube comment?
Seriously guys. You didnt even bother to respond to the content of the OP. Somewhat disappointing from people with your post count to directly engage in insults to a well-prepared OP like this. BTW, GG.NoRe is a 8000+ player, he can wipe the floor clean with most of us here.If someone knows what he is talking about, it is him.
@GG.NoRe, LOL man! they banging you hard! You're ok, just tone that fanboyism down, like way down, especially in the LR. hehehe. Thanks for this.
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LOL. that was a troll post. Look at his comics. This kid is crazy
Seriously, problem with guardians is burrow??? If you take that seriously man i dunno about you!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD
lol no he hates everyone who doesn't like Jaedong,or something like that.or he doesn't like flash and his fans or something.
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Edit:Oh shit,I replied to a GG.NoRe thread in a fashion he doesn't like,awaiting the PMs.
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On May 14 2011 02:32 ZnocK wrote:3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36423_Flash_vs_Light
If I am not wrong, Flash did admit to be able to hear the commentators in an interview about this issue.
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On May 14 2011 12:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD lol no he hates everyone who doesn't like Jaedong,or something like that.or he doesn't like flash and his fans or something. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Edit:Oh shit,I replied to a GG.NoRe thread in a fashion he doesn't like,awaiting the PMs.
I thought the hardcore JD fan was gongyrong?
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On May 14 2011 12:06 whiterabb1t wrote:LOL. that was a troll post. Look at his comics. This kid is crazy Seriously, problem with guardians is burrow??? If you take that seriously man i dunno about you!
Regardless of whether he's trolling or not he is annoying (there are other threads and posts of this kind). If he's trolling then he's an idiot. If he isn't, then he doesn't know what he's talking about. Nothing really changes.
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On May 14 2011 12:16 JMave wrote:If I am not wrong, Flash did admit to be able to hear the commentators in an interview about this issue.
He said no such thing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116188
edit: You might be thinking of Flash vs Light back in 2008 where someone waved in the audience, which Flash did see and said so. That was MBCGame's failure in the way they set up their studio and was later resolved with higher booths and better lighting. This game was a completely seperate and unrelated incident.
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On May 14 2011 12:18 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD lol no he hates everyone who doesn't like Jaedong,or something like that.or he doesn't like flash and his fans or something. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Edit:Oh shit,I replied to a GG.NoRe thread in a fashion he doesn't like,awaiting the PMs. I thought the hardcore JD fan was gongyrong?
Where is that dude anyway? LOL. JD fans are really interesting
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On May 14 2011 12:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD lol no he hates everyone who doesn't like Jaedong,or something like that.or he doesn't like flash and his fans or something. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Edit:Oh shit,I replied to a GG.NoRe thread in a fashion he doesn't like,awaiting the PMs.
lol I'm receiving PMs too . Gongryong is currently banned iirc.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50114 Posts
On May 14 2011 12:52 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD lol no he hates everyone who doesn't like Jaedong,or something like that.or he doesn't like flash and his fans or something. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Edit:Oh shit,I replied to a GG.NoRe thread in a fashion he doesn't like,awaiting the PMs. lol I'm receiving PMs too . Gongryong is currently banned iirc.
At least its nice to know its not something personal between him and me.
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On May 14 2011 08:30 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD No, he's a JD fanboy. I thought the "Flash Maphack" term came from him scanning hidden tech, expos, hidden lurkers, drops, army movement and stuff at the right exact time, not in his scouting pattern. It is because no other player has that "Map hack" game sense.
I think people first started using this after he scouted Light's hidden rax, then his hidden Fact, then his hidden starport... in one game
On May 14 2011 13:18 koreasilver wrote:
neo-ghostwriter
chuckle chuckle
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On May 14 2011 09:33 koreasilver wrote:
You are seriously annoying.
This is as stupid as if someone in made a thread in 2006 because he took people saying that Savior maphacks literally.
I miss those maphacking overlords...
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On May 14 2011 08:30 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD No, he's a JD fanboy. I thought the "Flash Maphack" term came from him scanning hidden tech, expos, hidden lurkers, drops, army movement and stuff at the right exact time, not in his scouting pattern. It is because no other player has that "Map hack" game sense.
Sometimes, this guy doesnt even need scan.
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5930 Posts
Yeah, like that time Flash flew his science vessel into Best's base to EMP an idle arbiter. Or when he, without scans or a successful scout, correctly predicted Calm's lurker all in by building three bunkers in a row, not building an engineering bay, and skipping stim for marine range.
His moves against Calm had me thinking he was cheating. He could well be...I still think the players can hear the commentators/crowd since I remember a game Shine blind blocked a BBS by switching his build or something. Just like Leta blocking Forgg's proxy factories, I can only assume Shine cheated because he's normally not that smart or aware.
But Flash is generally a risky player and so good with his timings and scans that I believe he's just really fucking good at Brood War. A lot of the time I think he kind of guesstimates builds and more often than not he's right and he stomps his opponent into the ground.
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I think people get way too riled up by GG.nore, he's just joking around trash-talking Flash a bit sometimes. And he does actually explain Flash's scouting technique well if you read the OP.
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On May 14 2011 20:09 tomatriedes wrote:
I think people get way too riled up by GG.nore, he's just joking around trash-talking Flash a bit sometimes. And he does actually explain Flash's scouting technique well if you read the OP.
LOL about the "sometimes".....
Praise your favourite player, defend him no matter what and maybe trash talk a little bit when he wins against a rival is one thing. When not even JD fanboys (who compared to him dont even seem to like JD and this is a good thing about him, a true fan) stand such overreactions and sometimes nonsense it shows something....
To me, even tho he has done a good job creating (not managing) the LR threads and has add some nice graphics, the only thing he has accomplished is make people hate JD or start a few flame wars that otherwise didnt need to happen. Tho I've read a post from him saying that since the ban he will not spoil results in polls and will keep the recommended games spoilers free too.
Just scale it down a bit and its all fine 
BTW the maphack thing didnt start because of the scouting pattern....it can be used to describe that but it was coined when Flash blind countered people, scouted hidden tech switches...proxy stuff and all that...not the inicial scout pattern. The move up ramp thing is a matter of the time until leta's scv reaches Flash's main or not.
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There was this game of Flash vs Best on Fighting Spirit and he somehow knew Best was going for a fast third even without any scouting. Pushed out with like 3 tanks and a bunch of rines for a contain. What a baller.
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On May 14 2011 20:09 tomatriedes wrote:
I think people get way too riled up by GG.nore, he's just joking around trash-talking Flash a bit sometimes. And he does actually explain Flash's scouting technique well if you read the OP.
To be honest I don't think a fellow Jaedong fan defending him serves any purpose but to provoke people into bashing him even more.
You have to admit that he has been overdoing it lately. At least it was mostly pro-JD stuff until now but adding anti-fanboyism unwarranted criticism of other players is bound to annoy people.
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On May 14 2011 20:52 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 20:09 tomatriedes wrote:
I think people get way too riled up by GG.nore, he's just joking around trash-talking Flash a bit sometimes. And he does actually explain Flash's scouting technique well if you read the OP. LOL about the "sometimes"..... Praise your favourite player, defend him no matter what and maybe trash talk a little bit when he wins against a rival is one thing. When not even JD fanboys (who compared to him dont even seem to like JD and this is a good thing about him, a true fan) stand such overreactions and sometimes nonsense it shows something.... To me, even tho he has done a good job creating (not managing) the LR threads and has add some nice graphics, the only thing he has accomplished is make people hate JD or start a few flame wars that otherwise didnt need to happen. Tho I've read a post from him saying that since the ban he will not spoil results in polls and will keep the recommended games spoilers free too. Just scale it down a bit and its all fine BTW the maphack thing didnt start because of the scouting pattern....it can be used to describe that but it was coined when Flash blind countered people, scouted hidden tech switches...proxy stuff and all that...not the inicial scout pattern. The move up ramp thing is a matter of the time until leta's scv reaches Flash's main or not.
whats the difference between creating ad managing threads? do you even see the way this guy manages LRs? I even tried to do 1 or 2 following his set up because its so neat and useful. yes hes a hopeless fanboy, lets just hope he keeps his word and not do it too much or at all in LRs.
Also, has anyone actually commented/reacted on the content of the OP?
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Flash is great, JD is great, I don't get why fanboyism needs to devalue the skill of another player. Sure I'll cheer screaming with beer in hand whenever Jaedong beats Flash, but at the end of the day they're all masters of their craft.
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1019 Posts
On May 15 2011 01:48 mierin wrote:
Flash is great, JD is great, I don't get why fanboyism needs to devalue the skill of another player.
lol a lot of TLers think otherwise, you aren't going to able to change their opinions.
Some of you guys underestimate how good the progamers can really get. When you play hundreds of thousands of games both in the practice house and on broadcast, you end up memorizing the timing of the opponent's initial build order, when they are going to take an expansion, etc etc. So when flash scans at the exact moment the opponent is teching carriers or if he is able to scout a proxy barracks, it doesn't mean he is cheating; he is just that good and we should appreciate that because this is the reason why we are able to watch and enjoy such high level games put on by flash and others.
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Watch more than 10 games of broodwar and you'll see how amazing some of flash's play is
Also what a hypocrite lolol
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There is one thing that really bothers me, every time I think about Flash. I read the rest of the thread and I am convinced that Flash has singularly the best star sense of any player today. However, sometimes it seems that he is TOO good.
The first game with Hydra in the recent MSL Ro4 is one such example. That marine split was just too good to be true, and I doubt anything but psychic powers could explain how Flash did it. He had no idea the lurkers were there, and split the marines before the lurkers had even attacked. This would be the opposite of what any terran player would do since there were mutas flying all around. Yet, Flash managed to preduct the lurker's exact position.
I am almost speechless.
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On May 15 2011 02:21 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 01:48 mierin wrote:
Flash is great, JD is great, I don't get why fanboyism needs to devalue the skill of another player. lol a lot of TLers think otherwise, you aren't going to able to change their opinions. Some of you guys underestimate how good the progamers can really get. When you play hundreds of thousands of games both in the practice house and on broadcast, you end up memorizing the timing of the opponent's initial build order, when they are going to take an expansion, etc etc. So when flash scans at the exact moment the opponent is teching carriers or if he is able to scout a proxy barracks, it doesn't mean he is cheating; he is just that good and we should appreciate that because this is the reason why we are able to watch and enjoy such high level games put on by flash and others.
I can do that and I'm not even a progamer. It's just called gaining game-sense from playing the game for like 10 years. (edit: obviously Flash has way better game sense than me, but timings like carriers and stuff are really standard because you can usually tell when your opponent is cutting a bit of army production to tech hardcore, since he will be way less confident in engaging you).
WaterTower, sensing stoplurkers used to be way sicker back in the day. It used to happen like every other TvZ. Also, you should try to participate in more recent conversations rather than bumping old threads.
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I came in here thinking that there would be a "mappack"....
Read wrong. 
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On June 06 2011 01:11 WaterTower wrote:
There is one thing that really bothers me, every time I think about Flash. I read the rest of the thread and I am convinced that Flash has singularly the best star sense of any player today. However, sometimes it seems that he is TOO good.
The first game with Hydra in the recent MSL Ro4 is one such example. That marine split was just too good to be true, and I doubt anything but psychic powers could explain how Flash did it. He had no idea the lurkers were there, and split the marines before the lurkers had even attacked. This would be the opposite of what any terran player would do since there were mutas flying all around. Yet, Flash managed to preduct the lurker's exact position.
I am almost speechless.
Well he knows the standard timings of when lurkers first hit the map, and to expect them somewhere along the path between his main and the opponent's, so he proceeds with caution (since that first m&m wave moves out without a vessel). On top of that, Hydra messed up and didn't hold position on those lurkers so they attacked as soon as the first marine was in range. Flash's reaction time is just incredible that he was able to spread and wipe them out so perfectly.
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On June 06 2011 01:22 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 01:11 WaterTower wrote:
There is one thing that really bothers me, every time I think about Flash. I read the rest of the thread and I am convinced that Flash has singularly the best star sense of any player today. However, sometimes it seems that he is TOO good.
The first game with Hydra in the recent MSL Ro4 is one such example. That marine split was just too good to be true, and I doubt anything but psychic powers could explain how Flash did it. He had no idea the lurkers were there, and split the marines before the lurkers had even attacked. This would be the opposite of what any terran player would do since there were mutas flying all around. Yet, Flash managed to preduct the lurker's exact position.
I am almost speechless. Well he knows the standard timings of when lurkers first hit the map, and to expect them somewhere along the path between his main and the opponent's, so he proceeds with caution (since that first m&m wave moves out without a vessel). On top of that, Hydra messed up and didn't hold position on those lurkers so they attacked as soon as the first marine was in range. Flash's reaction time is just incredible that he was able to spread and wipe them out so perfectly.
It's also standard to scan the place that your marines are headed in order to avoid getting skewered by lurkers.
I'm pretty sure most C Terrans will do this nowadays because it's likely lurkers will be there. Flash just takes the next step and just assumes that lurkers have been placed...
What WAS godly was that he suffered minimal losses, something most Terrans can't do.
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On June 06 2011 01:22 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 01:11 WaterTower wrote:
There is one thing that really bothers me, every time I think about Flash. I read the rest of the thread and I am convinced that Flash has singularly the best star sense of any player today. However, sometimes it seems that he is TOO good.
The first game with Hydra in the recent MSL Ro4 is one such example. That marine split was just too good to be true, and I doubt anything but psychic powers could explain how Flash did it. He had no idea the lurkers were there, and split the marines before the lurkers had even attacked. This would be the opposite of what any terran player would do since there were mutas flying all around. Yet, Flash managed to preduct the lurker's exact position.
I am almost speechless. Well he knows the standard timings of when lurkers first hit the map, and to expect them somewhere along the path between his main and the opponent's, so he proceeds with caution (since that first m&m wave moves out without a vessel). On top of that, Hydra messed up and didn't hold position on those lurkers so they attacked as soon as the first marine was in range. Flash's reaction time is just incredible that he was able to spread and wipe them out so perfectly.
Game one of that series he went fast vessel, and he also scanned the area a few seconds ahead of time. He never pushed out until he had 2 tanks and a vessel with some MM. Still a really nice split, though, and poor hold position micro from hydra. I think he caught Hydra off-guard more than anything.
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Russian Federation905 Posts
Wow this thread. OP is a very good analysis.
Flash knows TvZ inside out
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On June 06 2011 02:21 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 01:22 moopie wrote:On June 06 2011 01:11 WaterTower wrote:
There is one thing that really bothers me, every time I think about Flash. I read the rest of the thread and I am convinced that Flash has singularly the best star sense of any player today. However, sometimes it seems that he is TOO good.
The first game with Hydra in the recent MSL Ro4 is one such example. That marine split was just too good to be true, and I doubt anything but psychic powers could explain how Flash did it. He had no idea the lurkers were there, and split the marines before the lurkers had even attacked. This would be the opposite of what any terran player would do since there were mutas flying all around. Yet, Flash managed to preduct the lurker's exact position.
I am almost speechless. Well he knows the standard timings of when lurkers first hit the map, and to expect them somewhere along the path between his main and the opponent's, so he proceeds with caution (since that first m&m wave moves out without a vessel). On top of that, Hydra messed up and didn't hold position on those lurkers so they attacked as soon as the first marine was in range. Flash's reaction time is just incredible that he was able to spread and wipe them out so perfectly. Game one of that series he went fast vessel, and he also scanned the area a few seconds ahead of time. He never pushed out until he had 2 tanks and a vessel with some MM. Still a really nice split, though, and poor hold position micro from hydra. I think he caught Hydra off-guard more than anything.
You seem to be mistaken.
The lurkers moved into position at 9:16 game time. Flash's forces engage at 9:33, without a vessel. The vessel did not join Flash's forces until 9:50, after the lurkers were dead.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
For this particular scene (Hydra vs. Flash Lurker split G1 ABC MSL Semis) rewatch the Vod closely:
At 9:24 ingame time you hear a scan already going off (turn volume loud). You can also see the field of vision near those Lurkers slightly expand (bottom right of the vision circle close in which the Lurkers are).
Flash had just scanned the Lurkers a few seconds before the second on-screen scan that was only for safety so that he doesn't run out of detection mid-combat so to spectators it looked like he just went there, split his forces and then scanned.
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Thanks for clarifying that match Fenrax, wish we could see those little details that make such a big deal during big matches. The title for the thread confused me greatly but made more sense nice writeup, basically just Flash being an amazing player.
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EPT
