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it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
- William Shakespeare
OMG! Flash this! Flash that! This fanboyism if really reaching biblical lows. When was something so logical/practical/standard suddenly become almost messianic. Do we ever hear people say  Canata this!  PokJu that! OMFG Lomo maphack! whenever they do something... Actually standard?
+ Show Spoiler +
Anyway.
Why the barracks (yellow circle) position is standard
1. Nature of TvT - TvT is all about stability and position. Unless one player totally f***ed up, no TvT ends early. That is why if you are not going econ based 14CC or the safer still econ oriented rax FE, the way to go is proxy rax becuase:
- as mentioned above, there are not game ending threats in TvT early game
- The proxy rax, in the middle of the map, has the best chance of fulfilling its role as a immortal scout in TvT
2. Map and a little mind game - a thoroughly defensive race like terran on a 4 player map is always advised to go 14CC. This is the metagame (wow!) that flash took advantage of.
3. Scouting paths: As you can see in the picture below, only a retarded is-it-your-first-time-to-play-BW-where-the-fuck-is-that-scv-going cross map scout (purple) will have discovered it, off fast rax build at that (Not 14CC on 4p maps). In short, the rax was were it is expected to be
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lTtlF.jpg)
3. Anti-"cheese" - please pardon the use of "cheese" here. It is not meant as hardcore cheese as we know it, but merely a convenient label, there being none to describe, this non 14CC build. Anyone who still frets at this after this explanation better get there heads examined, please. Now, among progamers, this is a know strategy in 4p maps, but most go for the routine 14CC build just to increase the odds and to take full advantage of race-based mechanics. Which means, Leta would have gone 14CC or exactly this build as well. By then, the scvs would have met mid map, shook there hands, proceed to that retarded cross map scout, and went one with the day with rax FE or, if one is really brave, 14CC.
Why the scv scouting path is still standard
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IRX6F.jpg)
Here lets breakdown the events chronologically:
1. Yellow line
scv goes straight to proxy rax in the aforementioned standard spot
At this point, there is no give away information yet, but flash has this information
- if Leta is in 1 doing 14CC, flash will have time to get the first marine out and take advantage of BO
- If Leta is in 1 doing rax FE and scouts directly to him at 5, Leta's scv will be in his base by the time his rax finishes
- If Leta is in 1 doing rax FE and scouts at 11, he will meet Leta's scv halfway after he leaves the 7 nat (green line)
(use this same geometry of 3 scenarios if Leta is in 7)
- If Leta is in 11 doing 14CC, he will have marines BEFORE nat becomes operational and Leta has enough economy to match his army count
- If Leta is in 11 doing Rax FE, flash will still have time to mass enough marines before Leta finds out he has no rax in his main, and flash can hold off the slight econ advantage Leta has by pressuring him
- All diagonal scout will lead to flash build being exposed, and will result in adjustments
2. Green line
- Between 2 areas (11 and 7) of equal distance from his proxy rax, flash chose to go 7 (This is blind and flash is simply playing the odds here as Leta could be anywhere).
- This path will give flash the chance to meet Leta's scouting scv if Leta were in 11 or 1.
- If he doesnt meet any scv, or none arrive at his main, 14CC is almost a certainty.
But why did he turn around after arriving at the nat, what if Leta was in 7 after all?
This is still him playing the odds, and nothing out of taking advantage of what he knows already. Leta could be there, but he needed that extra second for his risky BO to work so he went 11.
3. Dark green
At this point, 14CC is a certainty. He already has his marine out toward 1 so he is uncertain only about 7. But this is only relative uncertainty because once the scv and first marine reach their destinations, he will know exactly what's up.
As luck would have it, he found Leta at 11 still finishing his CC in base and rax. This is the timing flash was talking about, and the reason for the turn around at 7. Luck was additionally on his part that Leta didnt build in the nat directly.
What about the timing and luck?
- the time he saved from going up at 7 gave him time to see Leta's main and to check if there is anything unusual (perhaps earlier rax than the usual 14CC timing.) Confirming that there are none, he proceeded with his bunker. All this timing took into account that Leta will not have the army to fend this early disruption off, delaying Leta's economy and making it useless for a while until Leta has the tech and army to establish his natural.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
What about if Leta was in 7?
Then flash would have been in shitload of trouble. The scenario would have been the same as that with Leta at 11, only that he will have enough time than by the time flash proxy marines arrived, Leta would have been mining already with 2+ marines guarding the nat.
What about is Leta was in 1?
If Leta was in 1, flash first marine would have been just enough trouble to delay CC/rax build and give flash time for the bunker at nat.
NOW, why was green route (7 first) is actually the less effective choice
By here, I mean flash should have went to 1 (red line), because:
- going 1 will immediately confirm 1 rax FE from either 1 or 7 because he would either havv met the scv going in the same direction or the scv would have arrived in his base
- if Leta went 14 CC to lift, and he turned around at the nat to go to 7, he is exactly in the same scenario as as he planned, but he will only be a bit later to his plan because his scv will have to return for the bunker. The bunker is still possible because he would have known for sure that Leta was in 11 and send his second marine there to harass before or exactly at the time Leta's FIRST marine was out! Still the odds favor flash in this scenario.
TO Replyers:
No knee jerk blind fanboyism reply please. Provide proof to back your claim. Better yet, run the scenarios, multiple times, like I did, so we can have a rational discussion. Thanks
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Looks interesting. I'll be back to reading this after my cpe midterm..=X
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its pure luck IMO,theres no reason to gamble that big on Leta not spawning at 7. If Leta spawned at 7 and scout clockwise Flash would be screwed....
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I would think even if Leta spawns at 7, Flash won't be any of an disadvantage if he didn't scout the main at 7, just that it would be an even closer call to whether Flash can place down his bunker at Leta's nat.
I don't think it would hurt to scout the middle of the map first for proxy buildings before going left/right/up/down, no?
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On May 14 2011 02:08 sinistral wrote:
I would think even if Leta spawns at 7, Flash won't be any of an disadvantage if he didn't scout the main at 7, just that it would be an even closer call to whether Flash can place down his bunker at Leta's nat.
I don't think it would hurt to scout the middle of the map first for proxy buildings before going left/right/up/down, no?
This is only possible for pre9 rax. or early scout before rax, which are unual in 4p map TvT. on a 14CC, this is virtually unscoutable.
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i dont know why you think this needed its own thread
built rax in middle, scouted in the right direction
what more is there to it?
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Since your korean you should know. English community isnt the only one whos saying flash "map-hacks." The korean commentators (who i believe has more experience in the game than almost anyone in here) gets amazed and even talks about flash having a hidden door way or trick mirror to see his opponents move. Ofcourse their kidding but even thats saying alot since they have to be unbaised towards all the player.
- luck because had Leta planted the CC straight at the nat, he will not be able to delay the econ advantage and will be behind. He will damage the CC enough but not significantly, Leta will simply have pulled scvs until the first marine was out and that would have been the end of the strategy and flash will definitely be behind. If it happened, Leta will have a good econ off 2 bases to get army and wall off while flash will be in one base, one factory, and with the risky strategy not doing its work of delaying Leta's econ.
As seen in one of the interviews or another, flash calculates his scout time. Which means in his practice game he calculated that even if leta was @ 7 oclock he would still be at an advantage. Thats what he been saying for a year now. He always scouts only the expo area in 4 player maps in calculation that even if he misses he would still be at a even. FYI this scouting method has been talked about in one of the program that flash was in, maybe one of the oldboy episodes or maybe the back-talk show in korean air osl part of the episode. (The korean commentator was very speechless at this scouting in this game too)
People saying that Flash uses "hack" isnt new at all and its not only in the english community. The korean commentators (Who has to be unbaised towards the players and has more experience in broodwar than almost anyone in here) even talked about, ofcourse in a joking manner, flash using trick mirrors or hidden panel of doorway to see his opponents move. They been saying playing against him is like having vision on for quiet some time now. Flash gets wins alot of games, and some might call it luck, some might call it practicing alot and as people say "luck is part of the skill"
Finally Havn't you ever put your self in the players shoe. Going up against someone in a live stage where everygame counts towards either winning a starleague or a proleague match. How there is 1000 or more stradegies in each match up. One can cheese, one can FE, one can time push, one can eco cheese. Out of all these Flash usually counters his opponent pretty well and even some of his games, he counters his opponent so well that it looks like he was hacking. Some people might take it too far but you gotta admit that Flash has one if not the best star sense in progaming scene. Also this is a site dedicated to e-sports, and in any "sports" related discussion there are always someone who has a passision for a player or a team.
FYI. im going to include some games that shows Flashs "starsense" and the korean commentators talking about it.
1. Ofcourse Flash vs Leta. commentator thinking that flash scout will just be in letas expo gets speechless after flash goes all the way up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/67914_Flash_vs_Leta
2. Flash vs Snow. There was no reason for flash to scout for proxy gate but he does and the commentators joke about him using trick mirror or secret panel to view his opponents moves
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49288_Flash_vs_Snow
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36423_Flash_vs_Light
4. Another Flash vs Light. This one is luck but it had to be included because it was amazing dropship doding scv. The whole studio was amazed by the play
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49360_Flash_vs_Light
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Flash's application of game theory is amazing to behold.
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3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
That one I'm a bit skeptical of because IIRC, even Light said he could hear the audience. Yes, the booths are sound proof but that doesn't mean it's impossible to notice the outside volume levels. I don't know whether he actually heard anything or not but there's no reason to dismiss the possibility that he did.
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You really have no place in deriding others for fanboyism...
People get excited about their favourite players and over-hype the things they do, there is nothing new in this.
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On May 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote:
You really have no place in deriding others for fanboyism...
Seriously.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221489
I thought your information and research was quite interesting, but your conclusion that Flash was doing nothing special seems kind of petty given how excited you got when Jaedong did a runby vs a bunker rush >.>
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On May 14 2011 03:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +
3. Flash vs Light Flash's scv makes a u-turn and scouts lights barracks. Also his scv scouts starport even tho he saw proxy fac with vultures just coming out. Even the mbc coach called it earmaphacking (where the players hears the audience) which is untrue since the booth is sound proof.
That one I'm a bit skeptical of because IIRC, even Light said he could hear the audience. Yes, the booths are sound proof but that doesn't mean it's impossible to notice the outside volume levels. I don't know whether he actually heard anything or not but there's no reason to dismiss the possibility that he did.
Ech not this again...
1) Light has been known to try and cheese Flash in the past instead of playing straight up.
2) Flash's scouting pattern wasn't THAT abnormal (for him). He was scouting specifically for a proxy, went down near 6, and then back up in the alcove. I'm assuming if he didnt find anything he would have gone to check behind (and above) the min line in the 3rd next.
3) If Light indeed heard the audience, he could have requested a pp instead of only bringing it up after he lost.
4) If Light's booth (i.e MBC's booth) was defective that night for whatever reason (not fully soundproof), that means that all the MBC players before that match had a distinct advantage against the KT players, yet none of them brought up anything about hearing the audience/commentators.
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Honestly, is this some weird thread? Why would anyone think Flash maphacks for serious? He just played a game recently where he scouted an adjacent main, to where he was cross scouted by the opponent, resulting in a follow up cross-scout from Flash's initial scout (finding the opponent as late as you possibly can)
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i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
I think this thread is just about explaining why flash scouted this way and not another
and as its done by Jaedong fan, what would you expect the tone of this analysis to be? "flash immortal god of starcraft omgomgomg"? but i think nonetheless it's a normal analysis overall. 
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Flash: So good even Jaedong fans are writing articles about his scouting pattern. Truly the best of our generation.
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You should mention something about flash's interview and how he knew leta would know that he abuses the fact that flash doesnt scout mains and that leta would build his CC inside (or something like that)
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Good analysis of Flash's scouting pattern. When we say Flash is map-hacking, it should be obvious that it is a joke. Adding your personal "insults" against Flash fans were completely unnecessary in this thread. Flash throwing down scan on zerg's expansion/stop lurkers or scouting like this in TvT/morphing lurkers which were meant to be hidden/hidden tech/etc. is all about timings+luck. Also, let me say that this was not a proper way to put down Flash fans, as L0thar already explained 
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ZnocK, did you really need to write a massive defensive post about Flash? This thread is to explain the scout pattern, which Flash himself didn't do in the interview. We all know flash is good at predicting things, we could see it in the same game later on even. Your post didn't add anything; What are you even trying to imply, that he 'Starsensed' Leta's starting location? It was lucky and Flash admits himself it was lucky.
Some people blatantly didn't understand why it was done so this is explanation. No need to get mad about it. There was much more examples of predictable and fast responses in that game than the fucking scout pattern, it's sad to even use this as an example. He's calling out fans because people were exaggerating what is just a sensible idea to use.
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On May 14 2011 05:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i bet this korean loss money for bet leta win, thats all,and he feel MAD
No, he's a JD fanboy. I thought the "Flash Maphack" term came from him scanning hidden tech, expos, hidden lurkers, drops, army movement and stuff at the right exact time, not in his scouting pattern. It is because no other player has that "Map hack" game sense.
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EPT
