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On January 05 2005 13:12 Chris307 wrote:
I think it is the first ZvZ final ever, and hopefully the last. Good god, I can't imagine anything less climactic than a ZVZ FINAL
zvz owns~
I'm sorry but nothing bothers me more than a sub-pro Zerg player calling for balance changes that favor Zerg. Sub-pro Zerg players have a huge edge over sub-pro Terran and Protoss, shut your mouth and let people like Hong do the whining
I wish there were more terrans who thought like you in 1.07. thx
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On January 05 2005 13:16 TheGreenBeret wrote:
so wat ur saying is we shud make it easier to do a cheesy 4 pool resulting in more and more no skill, boring to watch, very short, win or die games.
What do you think 8rax is?
And can u explain why semi-pro zerg players doesnt mean much 2 u?
They are not top tier players.
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reply to original post:
any "balance change" that don't require toss to have more speed and better keyb/mouse coordination sucks, we don't want to have one race for slowass newbs. -15 health is a huge change, I find it too radical to balance anything.
yellow lost because he didn't adapt his strat choice, was obvious with his build, don't you think?
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any retard that wants to change pool back to 150 and lurk to 100/100 HAS to be an incredibly biased whining zerg player, you cannot be serious when you say that that wouldnt change much.
do you have any idea what that would do to pvz?
the only possible solution is increasing bunker build time, this would not make normal terran play weaker, would hardly affect tvp and it would weaken bunk rushes (they should not be impossible, fe without scouting shouldnt be free).
i myself dont really think that bunk rushes are a problem, just because i really havent seen much proof of it, except for maybe boxer vs yellow, but you cannot draw any statistically relevant conclusions towards balance from what, 30 real progamers?
thats the reason why the argument of 'all the top players are terran' is irrelevant, im pretty sure if nada or iloveoov wouldve picked zerg or toss as their race, they wouldve owned too, just look at the next tier of progamers, zergs are owning that, does this mean zerg is too strong?
does the fact that 90% of the wgt top 30 are zerg mean anything?
no, it does not, not at all.
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On January 05 2005 13:25 pfff wrote:
any retard that wants to change pool back to 150 and lurk to 100/100 HAS to be an incredibly biased whining zerg player, you cannot be serious when you say that that wouldnt change much.
do you have any idea what that would do to pvz?
Yes, yes I do. I was a toss player in 1.07.
im pretty sure if nada or iloveoov wouldve picked zerg or toss as their race, they wouldve owned too,
Undoubtedly, however, they would not be ranked #1 and #2.
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I'm going to agree with whoever said that a rush strategy should be able to kill a fast expand strategy. I don't think even zerg should be able to expand before teching to their basic combat unit, unless on a big/cool map.
So in that respect SCV's are balanced.
But as a Toss player, two things annoy me:
1: How fucking hard SCV's are to kill even AFTER the early game. If a terran breaks into one of my expansions with a half-dozen units or so (call it 4 vultures and 2 tanks), I will lose pretty much every probe there even if reinforcements are 10 seconds away. If I break into a terran expansion with a similar/superior force, (say 4 zeals 4 goons), I could actually lose my force to the scv's, or at best kill 5-10 before being killled by terran reinforcements.
This sucks ^_^
2: The lack of a hard counter to fact-commandcentre on LT-style maps. There seems to be nothing Toss can do which will put them ahead if the players are roughly equal. Expanding twice is what is recommended to do, but it doesn't actually counter it in the same way vultures counter zeals. It just means you're on level terms again. If SCV's were easier to kill, it might help a bit.
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On January 05 2005 13:19 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2005 13:16 TheGreenBeret wrote:
so wat ur saying is we shud make it easier to do a cheesy 4 pool resulting in more and more no skill, boring to watch, very short, win or die games. What do you think 8rax is? They are not top tier players.
8 rax is possible to beat. An even quicker 4 pool would be practically impossible to beat.
"They are not top tier players" is not an awnser. For a start, they pretty much are, secondly whats ur point?
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Sweden33723 Posts
On January 05 2005 12:45 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2005 12:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Only swayed by tournament wins, eh? Well how about the thrilling ZvZ final between GoRush and July which is coming up in like a week -_- I am indeed very excited! But one tournament won't do the trick. Isn't this the first zvz finals ever?
Actually, unlike the last OGN Ever final which was the first TvT final ever, this is, to my knowledge at LEAST the second zvz final, the first being Mumyung 3-0ing Yellow in the first KPGA Winners championship some years ago.
Oh and since there's been 2 PvP finals, the same amount as ZvZ and TvT put together, GASP! SHOCK! I guess P needs a nerf ;(!
And July won Gillete just a few months back .. If boxer hadn't been there zerg would have had just as many OGN titles as toss and terran, so go ahead and blame it on boxer instead of the game plz ;p
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I hope you are joking. 4 poor rush where spawning pool costs 150 minerals would be overpowered, and impossible to counter. pvz would suck even more.
I agree wiht you Tal, same I wrote in my first replay.
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On January 05 2005 14:18 TheGreenBeret wrote:
8 rax is possible to beat. An even quicker 4 pool would be practically impossible to beat.
You obviously didn't play during 1.07.
"They are not top tier players" is not an awnser. For a start, they pretty much are, secondly whats ur point?
Why not look at bghers then?
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On January 05 2005 14:23 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Actually, unlike the last OGN Ever final which was the first TvT final ever, this is, to my knowledge at LEAST the second zvz final, the first being Mumyung 3-0ing Yellow in the first KPGA Winners championship some years ago.
Wow, I thought there were more tvt finals what with boxer and themarine being 1/2 for so long.
And July won Gillete just a few months back ..
Indeed he did.
If boxer hadn't been there zerg would have had just as many OGN titles as toss and terran, so go ahead and blame it on boxer instead of the game plz ;p
nevar~
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First of all, the game is not unbalanced at the highest levels. If it was, there wouldn't be a zvz final.
Regardless of that, you can't ignore the semi-pros, and even us. You especially can't compare them with money-map players. You may as well compare them to UMS players. Starcraft is starcraft, and money/ums isn't.
Zerg is raping at the semi-pro level. What would your changes do to that?
btw: Whoever like zvz is madly pro-zerg
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Sweden33723 Posts
On January 05 2005 14:32 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2005 14:23 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Actually, unlike the last OGN Ever final which was the first TvT final ever, this is, to my knowledge at LEAST the second zvz final, the first being Mumyung 3-0ing Yellow in the first KPGA Winners championship some years ago. Wow, I thought there were more tvt finals what with boxer and themarine being 1/2 for so long. Indeed he did. Show nested quote + If boxer hadn't been there zerg would have had just as many OGN titles as toss and terran, so go ahead and blame it on boxer instead of the game plz ;p nevar~
Might have been a few TvT finals in the smaller leagues but none that I am aware of ;o
Grrr vs HOT was R/P vs Z
Garimto vs SKELTON was P v Z
Boxer vs Jinnam was TvZ
Boxer vs Yellow was TvZ
Garimto vs Boxer was PvT
Sync vs HOT was TvZ
Reach vs Boxer was PvT
Nada vs Chojja was TvZ
Xellos vs Yellow was TvZ
Kingdom vs Nal_rA was PvP
Nal_rA vs Zeus was PvP
July vs Reach was ZvP
Oov vs Boxer was TvT
That was all the OGN finals, excluding the two king of kings (or well, 3 if you count hotbreak.. which might have been a tvt final between oddy and nada.. but that was a REALLY small event :O) which were won by Grrr (was he all P or R/P?) vs HOT Z (DUH) and Yellow vs Gundam, obviously ZvT.
As for MBC.....
Well you can look in the article section ;p Tired of writing XD But yeah, there's been a TvT final there o.O
With the big ZvZ final coming up it's fairly even between same race matchups ;o
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On January 03 2005 19:35 radiaL wrote:of course terrans will bitch  but not cause of those reasons I mean storm raids will be even more fucking devastating.. even if you do react its gotta be within 1 second reaction time (and this is with 60HP) cause leaving force behind is pretty useless if they drop 1/2 zeals before high temp. Obviously talkin about a good multitasker as a toss here i mean they can easily fight your main army with theirs and raid at the same time =/ I sound like a whining newb but it's fucking hard to play vs a good toss who plays like that ;D most people dont abuse it enough I think how fucked up will reavers be at the beggining? 2nd radius of splash will kill them in one shot too, right? 50% dmg? .. maybe 50HP?
lol and what is a psistorm for zerg eco????
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I only have one question.
Are all you zerg players who are complaining democrats?
( ;
Seriously, though, you can't please everyone, seeing as balance is subjective and changing regardless of whether or not changes to the game are actually made, because every so often a player comes along and says, "hey, if I do this..." and whattaya know, things change.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
ObsoleteLogic
Are you saying all the patches that have been implemented into this game is a bad thing?
Maybe we should revert back to the first patch or even 1.04 when BW came out and play with that one. We'll see terrans fill up the entire strategy forum with complaints.
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Tien, I'm not saying they're a bad thing, but I'm saying that endlessly clamoring for changes when things seem to be fairly well balanced (no real hard-counters [unit destroys unit b and there ain't jack b can do about it], leagues are, for the most part, even in races represented, and the majority of players I know don't complain about balance) is wanton childishness. Maybe changing the bunker build time isn't such a bad idea, but really - is it that hard to stop? I played plenty of very good Zerg users who stopped bunker rushes almost every time, and my micro wasn't half bad. The times it wasn't stopped, they did what players who are actually good (truly experienced and smart, not just having watched a ton of reps of players who are) do, and rebounded from the bad play that caused them to be in a poor situation. I think thats the real problem here... ( : Not to insinuate anything, of course. From what I hear, what Yellow did was stupid (granted, I didn't watch the games nor do I know what maps they were played on). Being smart and perhaps, breaking the paradigms sounds like a good place to start. Especially on maps that AREN'T LT. So many players just follow the mold of the builds that were found to be most effective on LT, regardless of what differences, subtle or otherwise, there might be on other maps.
By the way, Mindcrime... have you ever played a semi-pro? They're very, very good, probably (no offense intended) a lot better than you are. Any semi-pro can beat a top level pro on any day of the week. There isn't that much of a skill gap.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On January 05 2005 15:11 baelrog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2005 19:35 radiaL wrote:of course terrans will bitch but not cause of those reasons I mean storm raids will be even more fucking devastating.. even if you do react its gotta be within 1 second reaction time (and this is with 60HP) cause leaving force behind is pretty useless if they drop 1/2 zeals before high temp. Obviously talkin about a good multitasker as a toss here i mean they can easily fight your main army with theirs and raid at the same time =/ I sound like a whining newb but it's fucking hard to play vs a good toss who plays like that ;D most people dont abuse it enough I think how fucked up will reavers be at the beggining? 2nd radius of splash will kill them in one shot too, right? 50% dmg? .. maybe 50HP? lol and what is a psistorm for zerg eco????
Overlords.
Scourges.
Forget about dropping.
Until mass sair.
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On January 05 2005 15:48 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
By the way, Mindcrime... have you ever played a semi-pro? They're very, very good, probably (no offense intended) a lot better than you are. Any semi-pro can beat a top level pro on any day of the week. There isn't that much of a skill gap.
There's enough of a skill gap for them to not be pros.
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On January 05 2005 14:41 ProudCappi wrote:
btw: Whoever like zvz is madly pro-zerg
actually really really top level zvz can be very interesting to watch. and i dont even like zvz
On January 05 2005 13:19 Pafnucy wrote:
yellow lost because he didn't adapt his strat choice, was obvious with his build, don't you think?
ppl need to stop using this argument. the chances that boxer would 8rax again in the 3rd game are the same as they were that he'd do it the first game... maybe even less. logically doing something three times in a row makes no sense because theres a good chance it'd be countered. this makes it entirely a guessing game as to whether or not hes gonna do the same thing again. and as yellow explained after, had boxer done a normal build and yellow done an anti rush build yellow would have been far behind, so he chose to take the chance that boxer wouldnt 8rax three straight times. whoops.
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EPT
