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On April 28 2011 04:55 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 04:38 Sawamura wrote:On April 28 2011 04:35 xbankx wrote:On April 28 2011 04:24 ffreakk wrote:
Im not saying that people have figured out all of SC2, even Brood War's meta-game is still constantly evolving.
What i am saying is, after some time to employ those concepts that took many years to be discovered in BW, the game should be considered fairly developed (as much as 7-8 years into Brood War's lifetime), not still in its "infancy" stage like many of the SC2 ppl would like to believe.
Plus how do you evolve when half the things discovered yesterday would be garbage tomorrow because of a new patch?. Thats for the pro players to figure out. Because the game is so new, there are a lot of "balance" fixes needed because blizzard can't count on all the different build orders that can arise. BW was indeed a very lucky game in that it was very well designed in terms of balance at the start(with protoss being probably the weakest). I mean if you think about it, terran was supposedly the most mobile race (at least according to blizzard planning) but if you look at all matchup. Terran is very immobile with the exception of SK terran. I don't quite understand your first statement. Protoss weak you are kidding me == In terms of tourney results for BW, toss is definitely the weakest at the highest level of play. I think the only period of toss domiance was the 6 dragon period.
Protoss just hasn't had a true champion for a while. Stork barely prepares, doesn't have a great mindset and has average mechanics, Bisu is kinda not very smart, and can't PvP or PvT, where mechanics aren't as important. On the other hand, we have Flash and JD who have great mechanics, having great work ethic, and are geniuses. If either of these 2 play Protoss, I'm sure they would dominate.
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SC2 they are trying to balance at all levels though, in which case P would likely be nerfed by the way they are currently doing things.
xbankx doesn't even know what he's trying to argue against. SC2 proscene is where it is now because of BW knowledge applied to the new game, not in spite of it. Any argument otherwise is stupid. The same fucking stupid thing that's been repeated over and over 'Well see what BW was like in the first year!!' 'SC2 is in it's infacy!!' is just terrible logic. Progamers are coming into this game with 300 APM... and understanding concepts that were not even invented 11 years ago. There wasn't even any replays back then ffs.
Think how long it took even defilers to be standard, many years. Simply because players didn't have the mechanics to use them. There is no limitations with SC2, every strategy is accessible.. and new strategies spread within hours not even days anymore. Once the over-zealous balance patches stop do people seriously believe it's going to have a BW style long term evolution when the mechanics are so much easier? Once all the values are static people are going to work out the very best builds and use them forever, and that's when you gotta start worrying about the proscene. They are going to have to do some good work in the expansions if they want to make enough variety for when the patches stop.
But since it's Blizzard why will they even care then? They'll be moving onto another game, and will have already made their money. We are infact lucky BW stopped being balanced so early and remained in a state that there was huge amounts of evolution still possible, but as i said that was very much connected to player skill too.
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On April 28 2011 05:54 G3CKO wrote:
NOTHING BEATS PVT IN BW
TvZ and PvZ in bw > PvT in bw
Best mu in Sc2 is TvT imo 
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Nostalgia glasses lol? Most of the users with under 5k posts joined in 2009 or 2010...
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I really don't know why the "it's nostalgia" argument hasn't been made a bannable offence just like the infamous Dune argument. It's so annoying and it isn't true in the least because pretty much all the people who are arguing the superiority of BW gameplay are still actively playing it or at least following the scene. You can't be nostalgic about something you haven't been detached in any way whatsoever...
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On April 28 2011 04:18 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 04:11 ffreakk wrote:
You are misunderstanding my points.
Im not saying SC2 copies BW's build order.. Im talking about the concept of Build Order itself took a REALLY long time to get discovered in Brood War (Midas was the first to advocate strict adhering to Build Order, if im not mistaken?).
Only until iloveoov that macro was really discovered and developed, Boxer taught everyone what "micro" is. Similarly, fast expand, timing pushes, are all concepts that were developed (by the BW scene) prior to SC2.
You cant really deny that those concepts are widely used in Starcraft 2 today, so much that many people are taking it for granted. concepts may be figured out, but I know what "build order", "micro", and "macro" means but it does not mean it is the same. It took thousands and thousands of games and a few years to optimally figure out 3 hatch mutas into 5 hatch hydras and that took a dedicated pro scene. Many builds like flash's double armory build and Bisu's sair/dt build took 1 person but it required that person. So many builds in broodwar so many timings in broodwar took years to discover like double factory into fake double. Thats why when you said just because we know what micro,macro, and build order mean. It does not mean we can figure out everything in a year. I think in terms of different timings/build orders sc2 only scratched the surface of possibility. Im not quite sure you understand when I brought out the protoss example. Blizzard nerfed protoss for 2 patches in a row. It was considered the weakest race before the 2 patches but after the two patches, protoss is seen as the strongest. The game is evolving. An example is more like terran in bw is weakest race atm, you half damage damage on tanks/marine then terran is now seen as strongest race.
Oh no!
My mothership got nerfed, protoss is so weak.
My voidray is no longer imba when it's fully charged, gonna switch to terran.
Also, your BW terran nerf example makes no sense.
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Seriously, Nostalgia Glasses? Thats it? That's all the SC2 dudes can come up?
Come on, Infancy? It's Starcraft! Don't treat it like it's another game. It's a sequel to a game and it was built with the same structure from it's prequel. You can clearly see the similarities! But I think I know why some people call it 'new', because the fucking dev team removed all the shit that has evolved with in BW like:
Micro: Seriosuly, if you talk about micro, we are talking about casters dishing great damage but also vulnerable to damage yet with great micro, you can almost dodge those incoming attacks to the casters you are microing or or or killing a zealot with 4 zerglings without losing any zerglings, try doing that!. Look at Flash, Zero, Action, Kal, and Bisu today, you will know what I'm talking about. Nothing really special about that except TRY MICROING A UNIT WITH A DUMB AI!
Macro: Try pumping units from 24 gates, no, make that 12 gates instead. Now upon taking another expo, try pumping from 16 gates. You will notice it gets harder from 12 to 16. Now, proceed to SC2! try macroing from 8 gates, after taking another expo, try macroing from 13 gates, there is hardly any difference at all! Holy fucking MBS. Maybe a Chimp can macro like Best in SC2.
Star Sense: Seriously, Sensory tower? WTF is that? This is literally spoon feeding the players on what was suppose to be a real talent by dedicated players. WTF?
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On April 28 2011 05:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
SC2 they are trying to balance at all levels though, in which case P would likely be nerfed by the way they are currently doing things.
xbankx doesn't even know what he's trying to argue against. SC2 proscene is where it is now because of BW knowledge applied to the new game, not in spite of it. Any argument otherwise is stupid. The same fucking stupid thing that's been repeated over and over 'Well see what BW was like in the first year!!' 'SC2 is in it's infacy!!' is just terrible logic. Progamers are coming into this game with 300 APM... and understanding concepts that were not even invented 11 years ago. There wasn't even any replays back then ffs.
Think how long it took even defilers to be standard, many years. Simply because players didn't have the mechanics to use them. There is no limitations with SC2, every strategy is accessible.. and new strategies spread within hours not even days anymore. Once the over-zealous balance patches stop do people seriously believe it's going to have a BW style long term evolution when the mechanics are so much easier? Once all the values are static people are going to work out the very best builds and use them forever, and that's when you gotta start worrying about the proscene. They are going to have to do some good work in the expansions if they want to make enough variety for when the patches stop.
But since it's Blizzard why will they even care then? They'll be moving onto another game, and will have already made their money. We are infact lucky BW stopped being balanced so early and remained in a state that there was huge amounts of evolution still possible, but as i said that was very much connected to player skill too.
I think SC2 started following BWstyle then evolved into its own style now. I mean at the beginning of sc2. People where just using BW builds 15 hatch 14 pool, forge fe, hydra-rush to break forge fe, 2 gate(kinda old school), and hellion+tanks versus toss.
Now days there is almost no more build order that resemebles bw. The standard fe is now 3 gate into expansion using sentry to defend. Zerg now go for pool first most of the time. Forge expand is no longer viable or at least very risky(baneling bust or roach allin). Tank+hellion is not used anymore. Even races have exchanged rolls. Terran is now a more mobile race and toss is considered the big ball race(compared to dragoons+zealots versus tanks+vultures).
There is no such thing as a best build. As the metagame evolve, so does builds. 2 fact was considered a very strong tvp build once upon a time but then it got weaker and weaker and now is seen as an all in. For sc2, PvP used to be all about 4 gate vs 4 gate now days about 50% of pro pvp no longer resolves around 4 gate. I mean people might still build 4 gate just in case to defend but all in versions are less and less often.Mechanics are easier to play with in sc2 but they are not easy to master. I can spam my ff all day long but my forcefield will never be as good as those of pro gamers simply because Im not that fast and it takes time for my to process where Im going to put them. I can attempt to drop 4 locations at onces with medivacs but since I don't got the 300 apm. I can't control them once they are dropped. Mechanics improvement is limitless unless players can micro individual zerlings at perfection there is always room to improve. There will never be a best build forever as builds change overtime and counters to certain build arises. Then "good" builds will have to continue to evolve to adapt to counter builds. In the beginning of beta/release, an extremely popular TvZ build was hellion+marauder into expand. This build was heavily supported by top players like Trump(at that time he was one of the better terrans). Of course the metagame at that time, zerg was always starting with roach(this was a time when roach is already 2 supply). Roach was considered the best opening as it is relative great against all terran earily game units except stimmed marauders. When the hellion+marauder build got popular, zerg's best build start changing to a more zergling defense into mutas which then evolved into ling/bling/mutas.
People will always try to create timing to abuse "good and safe" builds. No build is strong at all point of game. If you have extra defense, people will come up with build thats can sneak in extra econ. An static rts game is very unlikely unless there is noone who try to innovate at all and with the size of the sc2 community I don't see how that is possible.
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On April 28 2011 07:12 prototype. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 04:18 xbankx wrote:On April 28 2011 04:11 ffreakk wrote:
You are misunderstanding my points.
Im not saying SC2 copies BW's build order.. Im talking about the concept of Build Order itself took a REALLY long time to get discovered in Brood War (Midas was the first to advocate strict adhering to Build Order, if im not mistaken?).
Only until iloveoov that macro was really discovered and developed, Boxer taught everyone what "micro" is. Similarly, fast expand, timing pushes, are all concepts that were developed (by the BW scene) prior to SC2.
You cant really deny that those concepts are widely used in Starcraft 2 today, so much that many people are taking it for granted. concepts may be figured out, but I know what "build order", "micro", and "macro" means but it does not mean it is the same. It took thousands and thousands of games and a few years to optimally figure out 3 hatch mutas into 5 hatch hydras and that took a dedicated pro scene. Many builds like flash's double armory build and Bisu's sair/dt build took 1 person but it required that person. So many builds in broodwar so many timings in broodwar took years to discover like double factory into fake double. Thats why when you said just because we know what micro,macro, and build order mean. It does not mean we can figure out everything in a year. I think in terms of different timings/build orders sc2 only scratched the surface of possibility. Im not quite sure you understand when I brought out the protoss example. Blizzard nerfed protoss for 2 patches in a row. It was considered the weakest race before the 2 patches but after the two patches, protoss is seen as the strongest. The game is evolving. An example is more like terran in bw is weakest race atm, you half damage damage on tanks/marine then terran is now seen as strongest race. Oh no! My mothership got nerfed, protoss is so weak. My voidray is no longer imba when it's fully charged, gonna switch to terran. Also, your BW terran nerf example makes no sense.
The guy who I replied to sounded like he thought protoss was strong then nerf patch comes in then protoss got weak. But it was completely different. Protoss was considered weak, then 2 nerfs came and protoss suddenly became the strongest race. I was trying to get across that point that protoss changed their play style to adapt thus the game state is evolving. The terran example merely illustrate that relationship of something considered weak and now a nerf and now suddenly its strong. It is not realistic and it wasn't meant to be realistic.
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I think you guys might be misreading what Browder is saying by "fun." I think by fun, he means gimmicky things that are like cool random abilities but don't really add to the functionality or balance of units. I mean, look at all those insane abilities the mothership had in the very early stages of the beta. A lot of people are reading a bit too much into the specific route they are balancing the game, as opposed to just his general clash in philosophy in "command and conquer with hundreds of random unit types that look cool and do crazy shit!" to "balance and simplicity!"
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On April 28 2011 08:18 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 05:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
SC2 they are trying to balance at all levels though, in which case P would likely be nerfed by the way they are currently doing things.
xbankx doesn't even know what he's trying to argue against. SC2 proscene is where it is now because of BW knowledge applied to the new game, not in spite of it. Any argument otherwise is stupid. The same fucking stupid thing that's been repeated over and over 'Well see what BW was like in the first year!!' 'SC2 is in it's infacy!!' is just terrible logic. Progamers are coming into this game with 300 APM... and understanding concepts that were not even invented 11 years ago. There wasn't even any replays back then ffs.
Think how long it took even defilers to be standard, many years. Simply because players didn't have the mechanics to use them. There is no limitations with SC2, every strategy is accessible.. and new strategies spread within hours not even days anymore. Once the over-zealous balance patches stop do people seriously believe it's going to have a BW style long term evolution when the mechanics are so much easier? Once all the values are static people are going to work out the very best builds and use them forever, and that's when you gotta start worrying about the proscene. They are going to have to do some good work in the expansions if they want to make enough variety for when the patches stop.
But since it's Blizzard why will they even care then? They'll be moving onto another game, and will have already made their money. We are infact lucky BW stopped being balanced so early and remained in a state that there was huge amounts of evolution still possible, but as i said that was very much connected to player skill too. I think SC2 started following BWstyle then evolved into its own style now. I mean at the beginning of sc2. People where just using BW builds 15 hatch 14 pool, forge fe, hydra-rush to break forge fe, 2 gate(kinda old school), and hellion+tanks versus toss. Now days there is almost no more build order that resemebles bw. The standard fe is now 3 gate into expansion using sentry to defend. Zerg now go for pool first most of the time. Forge expand is no longer viable or at least very risky(baneling bust or roach allin). Tank+hellion is not used anymore. Even races have exchanged rolls. Terran is now a more mobile race and toss is considered the big ball race(compared to dragoons+zealots versus tanks+vultures). There is no such thing as a best build. As the metagame evolve, so does builds. 2 fact was considered a very strong tvp build once upon a time but then it got weaker and weaker and now is seen as an all in. For sc2, PvP used to be all about 4 gate vs 4 gate now days about 50% of pro pvp no longer resolves around 4 gate. I mean people might still build 4 gate just in case to defend but all in versions are less and less often.Mechanics are easier to play with in sc2 but they are not easy to master. I can spam my ff all day long but my forcefield will never be as good as those of pro gamers simply because Im not that fast and it takes time for my to process where Im going to put them. I can attempt to drop 4 locations at onces with medivacs but since I don't got the 300 apm. I can't control them once they are dropped. Mechanics improvement is limitless unless players can micro individual zerlings at perfection there is always room to improve. There will never be a best build forever as builds change overtime and counters to certain build arises. Then "good" builds will have to continue to evolve to adapt to counter builds. In the beginning of beta/release, an extremely popular TvZ build was hellion+marauder into expand. This build was heavily supported by top players like Trump(at that time he was one of the better terrans). Of course the metagame at that time, zerg was always starting with roach(this was a time when roach is already 2 supply). Roach was considered the best opening as it is relative great against all terran earily game units except stimmed marauders. When the hellion+marauder build got popular, zerg's best build start changing to a more zergling defense into mutas which then evolved into ling/bling/mutas. People will always try to create timing to abuse "good and safe" builds. No build is strong at all point of game. If you have extra defense, people will come up with build thats can sneak in extra econ. An static rts game is very unlikely unless there is noone who try to innovate at all and with the size of the sc2 community I don't see how that is possible.
Seriously, just stop. How many times do we have to explain the same thing before you get it? Were not talking about actual build orders, but rather about "the concept" of a build order. Spewing out a bunch of random examples from bw/sc2 does absolutely nothing for this discussion. No one is saying sc2 wont evolve at all, were just saying its not really as "infant" as some of you seem to think. All RTS released from now on will have these concepts from the get go, and they took years and years do be developed by bw. And again, I'm NOT talking about an actual build order!!!!
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Obviously the game is going to evolve. But I personally don't give a damn about build orders or standards or anything like that. I think SC2 is a great game to play. My issue is that it is simply boring to watch.
No amount of evolution is going to make the Colossus an exciting unit.
No change in the meta game are going to suddenly make it hard to macro off of any number of bases.
No new build orders are going to stop a 200/200 army from occupying the same space on the map as 10 units in Broodwar.
And nothing is going to change the fact that almost every engagement is going to be decided 90% by unit comp, 10% other factors.
Blizzard made a great game for casuals. Thats fine. But as far as being on the outside looking in, the game is fundamentally flawed.
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On April 28 2011 08:38 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
I think you guys might be misreading what Browder is saying by "fun." I think by fun, he means gimmicky things that are like cool random abilities but don't really add to the functionality or balance of units. I mean, look at all those insane abilities the mothership had in the very early stages of the beta. A lot of people are reading a bit too much into the specific route they are balancing the game, as opposed to just his general clash in philosophy in "command and conquer with hundreds of random unit types that look cool and do crazy shit!" to "balance and simplicity!"
Browder himself said they never thought players would use blink to jump cliffs. Or that they even considered removing the archon?
Its okay to have zero faith in the SC2 design team.
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On April 28 2011 08:49 KorvspaD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 08:18 xbankx wrote:On April 28 2011 05:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
SC2 they are trying to balance at all levels though, in which case P would likely be nerfed by the way they are currently doing things.
xbankx doesn't even know what he's trying to argue against. SC2 proscene is where it is now because of BW knowledge applied to the new game, not in spite of it. Any argument otherwise is stupid. The same fucking stupid thing that's been repeated over and over 'Well see what BW was like in the first year!!' 'SC2 is in it's infacy!!' is just terrible logic. Progamers are coming into this game with 300 APM... and understanding concepts that were not even invented 11 years ago. There wasn't even any replays back then ffs.
Think how long it took even defilers to be standard, many years. Simply because players didn't have the mechanics to use them. There is no limitations with SC2, every strategy is accessible.. and new strategies spread within hours not even days anymore. Once the over-zealous balance patches stop do people seriously believe it's going to have a BW style long term evolution when the mechanics are so much easier? Once all the values are static people are going to work out the very best builds and use them forever, and that's when you gotta start worrying about the proscene. They are going to have to do some good work in the expansions if they want to make enough variety for when the patches stop.
But since it's Blizzard why will they even care then? They'll be moving onto another game, and will have already made their money. We are infact lucky BW stopped being balanced so early and remained in a state that there was huge amounts of evolution still possible, but as i said that was very much connected to player skill too. I think SC2 started following BWstyle then evolved into its own style now. I mean at the beginning of sc2. People where just using BW builds 15 hatch 14 pool, forge fe, hydra-rush to break forge fe, 2 gate(kinda old school), and hellion+tanks versus toss. Now days there is almost no more build order that resemebles bw. The standard fe is now 3 gate into expansion using sentry to defend. Zerg now go for pool first most of the time. Forge expand is no longer viable or at least very risky(baneling bust or roach allin). Tank+hellion is not used anymore. Even races have exchanged rolls. Terran is now a more mobile race and toss is considered the big ball race(compared to dragoons+zealots versus tanks+vultures). There is no such thing as a best build. As the metagame evolve, so does builds. 2 fact was considered a very strong tvp build once upon a time but then it got weaker and weaker and now is seen as an all in. For sc2, PvP used to be all about 4 gate vs 4 gate now days about 50% of pro pvp no longer resolves around 4 gate. I mean people might still build 4 gate just in case to defend but all in versions are less and less often.Mechanics are easier to play with in sc2 but they are not easy to master. I can spam my ff all day long but my forcefield will never be as good as those of pro gamers simply because Im not that fast and it takes time for my to process where Im going to put them. I can attempt to drop 4 locations at onces with medivacs but since I don't got the 300 apm. I can't control them once they are dropped. Mechanics improvement is limitless unless players can micro individual zerlings at perfection there is always room to improve. There will never be a best build forever as builds change overtime and counters to certain build arises. Then "good" builds will have to continue to evolve to adapt to counter builds. In the beginning of beta/release, an extremely popular TvZ build was hellion+marauder into expand. This build was heavily supported by top players like Trump(at that time he was one of the better terrans). Of course the metagame at that time, zerg was always starting with roach(this was a time when roach is already 2 supply). Roach was considered the best opening as it is relative great against all terran earily game units except stimmed marauders. When the hellion+marauder build got popular, zerg's best build start changing to a more zergling defense into mutas which then evolved into ling/bling/mutas. People will always try to create timing to abuse "good and safe" builds. No build is strong at all point of game. If you have extra defense, people will come up with build thats can sneak in extra econ. An static rts game is very unlikely unless there is noone who try to innovate at all and with the size of the sc2 community I don't see how that is possible. Seriously, just stop. How many times do we have to explain the same thing before you get it? Were not talking about actual build orders, but rather about "the concept" of a build order. Spewing out a bunch of random examples from bw/sc2 does absolutely nothing for this discussion. No one is saying sc2 wont evolve at all, were just saying its not really as "infant" as some of you seem to think. All RTS released from now on will have these concepts from the get go, and they took years and years do be developed by bw. And again, I'm NOT talking about an actual build order!!!!
Knowing the concept of a build order does not make it so that the game is way past its infancy. Build orders have been around for ages, I mean I bought sc1 when it first came out and when I talk to my friends about it " I will say, I go gateway at 12 supply and another at 13-14 supply" That is a build order right there and this was even before sc:bw came out. Maybe people haven't termed "build order" but every RTS people have know there is a good way to use minerals. I never looked at a wc3 strat forum in my life, but when I started playing it after a few games, I can easily know when to put down a farm. Just having the concept of build order maens absolutely nothing in the development of a game else any game that came after people started using the word "build order" is already past its infancy which makes no sense. I think the development of gameplay, builds, and timing is an better indicator of how much a game developed. If I see a timeline of how "standard" protoss build transitioned from in the early 2004-2009, I can see there was a lot of changes and development to the race and how it evolved. But if you just show me a timeline with a few line "midas coined build order 2006, iLoveOOV shows macro style 2003", I would go wtf. Hell when I was in elementry school and playing age of empire. I know the concept of economy/more bases/more production build and that was in like 199x. The concept of micro,macro, and build order definitely did not start with BW maybe the terms did.
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Seriously, Nostalgia Glasses? Thats it? That's all the SC2 dudes can come up?
Contrary to what you may believe "the SC2 dudes", the vast majority of them, are not actually trying to convince you that it is a better game. That is a decision for you to make.
Of course people are going to come into your forum and some will make terrible arguments. Have you seen the SC2 forums? It's fucking terrible lol.
You're really fighting a ghost here. I don't think that this thread has really achieved anything. In the end you just play the game, and you have fun (or not). I'd be more concerned about some games not having streams (or at least some LR threads have said this I think), because that's where you're going to get new blood if anywhere.
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On April 28 2011 09:58 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +Seriously, Nostalgia Glasses? Thats it? That's all the SC2 dudes can come up? Contrary to what you may believe "the SC2 dudes", the vast majority of them, are not actually trying to convince you that it is a better game. That is a decision for you to make. Of course people are going to come into your forum and some will make terrible arguments. Have you seen the SC2 forums? It's fucking terrible lol. You're really fighting a ghost here. I don't think that this thread has really achieved anything. In the end you just play the game, and you have fun (or not). I'd be more concerned about some games not having streams (or at least some LR threads have said this I think), because that's where you're going to get new blood if anywhere.
See the posts above. Hell, turn a page or two back.
And how boring would that be. 'Just play the game'. Might as well not post at all regarding any topics.
People here are talking about the comments of the Lead Designer of the game they love. Making a sequel that should have the aspects of what the prequel was known for. This lead designer has no idea of what made BW great, HE EVEN STATED IT ON AN INTERVIEW! Thats the problem here.
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On April 28 2011 03:51 xbankx wrote:
An 1 year old RTS game is definitely still in its infancy.
A perfect example that the game is still evolving at an extremely fast rate is that 3 month ago, protoss is considered the weakest race. After 2 patches of protoss nerf, protoss just became the strongest race in tourney result.
Sorry, I have to defend ffreak's post and standpoint here. This is insane. How do you SC2 fanboys not realize that the fact that BW's evolution took the path it did SHOULD have guaranteed that it was one of the best ^#&$ing games of all time. Even your people admit that BW has been around for a long time and has taken one hell of an evolution to become what it is now; a refined and near-flawless mind-to-mind battle of strategic perfection.
If the oh-so-wise developers actually understood SCBW at all, SC2 should have been born into near-perfection. Maybe a few bugs, but with the depth and the strategy that is still being discovered today, you would think SC2 would be a little more exciting. The game responsible for birthing damn near every fragment of popularity that e-sports shares now, is under attack from being publicly released by its own parent company who CLAIMS its for "copyright infringement" they suddenly care about out of literally nowhere.
1 year after the one of the longest betas I've ever seen, the game has utterly failed to impress me and a large portion of the BW community. Just accept that. There's really nothing to argue because I'm sorry but you casual players somehow think "I should have to do less for it to be superior." No micro? Sorry, SC2 should have been at least somewhere close to the equivalent to the SaviOr era by now given the huge head start it got by name and title alone. They even got the guys that gave BW its jump start over in KR playing and it gets nowhere near the level of dedication that BW gets. When BW is played internationally, people *!&@ing fly over there halfway across the world to see them. Our guys are Rock Stars. Even your own top players say: "uh-huh... fuckin' terrible game...". I shall not name it but any good fan knows it. I don't purely hate SC2, it was fun for a bit, but don't ever suggest that its close to BW.
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how the hell will adjustments to build orders fix the fact that all the primary characteristics that made brood war great have been gimped? it simply isnt possible to play at the level the s-class broodwar players do in sc2 - theres just nowhere to use your apm. in broodwar, the faster you get, the more units you can include and utilize in your arsenal which results in a more interesting game (since bw units actually had some life and some special attributes that differentiated them from other units.) in sc2, its just one group of blob units blobbing on the other group of blob units, or a complete set of boring, simplistic blob units blobbing on another group of boring, simplistic blob units.
seriously, how can anyone justify this guy's attempt at making a 'sport' after he did his best to noobify core aspects of bw?
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On April 28 2011 12:31 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 03:51 xbankx wrote:
An 1 year old RTS game is definitely still in its infancy.
A perfect example that the game is still evolving at an extremely fast rate is that 3 month ago, protoss is considered the weakest race. After 2 patches of protoss nerf, protoss just became the strongest race in tourney result. Sorry, I have to defend ffreak's post and standpoint here. This is insane. How do you SC2 fanboys not realize that the fact that BW's evolution took the path it did SHOULD have guaranteed that it was one of the best ^#&$ing games of all time. Even your people admit that BW has been around for a long time and has taken one hell of an evolution to become what it is now; a refined and near-flawless mind-to-mind battle of strategic perfection. If the oh-so-wise developers actually understood SCBW at all, SC2 should have been born into near-perfection. Maybe a few bugs, but with the depth and the strategy that is still being discovered today, you would think SC2 would be a little more exciting. The game responsible for birthing damn near every fragment of popularity that e-sports shares now, is under attack from being publicly released by its own parent company who CLAIMS its for "copyright infringement" they suddenly care about out of literally nowhere. 1 year after the one of the longest betas I've ever seen, the game has utterly failed to impress me and a large portion of the BW community. Just accept that. There's really nothing to argue because I'm sorry but you casual players somehow think "I should have to do less for it to be superior." No micro? Sorry, SC2 should have been at least somewhere close to the equivalent to the SaviOr era by now given the huge head start it got by name and title alone. They even got the guys that gave BW its jump start over in KR playing and it gets nowhere near the level of dedication that BW gets. When BW is played internationally, people *!&@ing fly over there halfway across the world to see them. Our guys are Rock Stars. Even your own top players say: "uh-huh... fuckin' terrible game...". I shall not name it but any good fan knows it. I don't purely hate SC2, it was fun for a bit, but don't ever suggest that its close to BW.
that 2nd paragraph is something that really makes me bitter. blizzard set the original template of the game, we are thankful for that. but it's korea and the players that made it great, and continue making it great. blizzard may own starcraft, but, as far as im concerned, the sponsors, the officials, the progamers own ESPORTS.
it just pisses me off to see such an incredible game that had to work hard throughout its entire career to survive get torn down and replaced by a dead-end game that is without a shadow of a doubt inferior (for both the players and the viewers.) considering all the damage sc2 has done to broodwar, the only way ill ever recognise it as a good game is if it surpasses broodwar (which it wont, so its pretty much lost to me.)
i mean really, theres already a functioning rts esports in korea, but instead of taking cues and hints from knowledgeable people, they just went on with makin the game themselves. there was all the opportunity in the world to at least attempt to approve on brood war, but instead sc2 came out and it fell far short of expectations, even with all the helping hands its gotten. are people seriously expecting it to suddenly become a better game than brood war? its just never going to happen
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