I think what Browder says in this interview explains indeed a lot. I still think StarCraft 2 is a good game, although building on Brood War units instead of replacing them would have been a better idea imho.
Although I agree with the points made in this thread about ball vs. ball endgame fights, I do not think it is entirely correct to blame this solely on the game. I actually believe that StarCraft 2 rewards very extensive micro in huge battles, but because of the speed of which battles unwind it is extremely hard to do this properly and effectively. This could be the reason why we haven't seen (a lot) of it in professional play, because right now focussing training on this part of the game would be ineffective. I think when they really get into these deep parts of the game, the possibilities of the new interface, unlimited shift queuing, and autocasting and all this will proof as incredible tools in the hands of professionals. I admit that it could also be possible that this kind of micro is impossible to do (effectively) in SC2 as claimed by some people in this thread, but I kind of refuse to accept that at this point in time.
So I think there is still hope that the players will make SC2 better than Blizzard ever could have (At least if they stop fucking with the core of the game every two months so pro players can actually improve at this).
On April 28 2011 12:38 Legatus Lanius wrote:theres just nowhere to use your apm. in broodwar, the faster you get, the more units you can include and utilize in your arsenal which results in a more interesting game (since bw units actually had some life and some special attributes that differentiated them from other units.)
seriously, how can anyone justify this guy's attempt at making a 'sport' after he did his best to noobify core aspects of bw?
Yes, obviously it's very impressive that Flash can micro while keeping all his factories spinning, but that's not interesting to play or to watch. It would be impressive if all the TSL players played with a live weasel in their pants, but it wouldn't attract anyone new, and it would stay niche.
The problem is that a lot of the really impressive part of Brood War aren't impressive until you've played BW and thrown your laptop out the window because of how frustrating the interface can get.
in sc2, its just one group of blob units blobbing on the other group of blob units, or a complete set of boring, simplistic blob units blobbing on another group of boring, simplistic blob units.
If you're not really really into BW, that's what BW looks like, too. And yes, I'm sure everyone who just read that went "Blasphemy!". Because if you really truly understand BW, you understand how subtle and complex and brilliant it is that a vulture is turning at a 36 degree angle instead of the standard 45 for this position. You have to know Brood War to appreciate Brood War.
6:30 - MC a-moves a small army into three bunkers and loses a ton of units stupidly, because even the top players are FAR from playing perfect.
8:50 - Thorzain snipes a pylon and an assimilitor, and retreats. Ho-hum.
10:50 - MC blinks forward with stalkers to snipe a viking and nearly a medivac. Thorzain stims a small chunk of his units (you want to stim less in SC2 than in BW. Medivac energy is more precious that medic energy was, so stimming all your units is painful), and manages to pick off one stalker before they blink away. Thorzain regroups, and chases in for a 2-2 timing attack.
Thorzain's army shoots at a straggling stalker as they enter the base, which blink-dodges the attack in some good micro. Sadly, this micro doesn't last, and MC whiffs his first storm, hitting the edge of Thorzain's ball, which gets out easily. This tips off Thorzain that MC has storm, and he pulls back his main army while sending a lone Hellion to the third to scout/annoy. MC chases a bit, but uses his newfound map control to take two Xel'Naga towers and a fourth base.
12:50 - Thorzain, now with ghosts, moves out. The stalkers see this from their XN tower, and blink away to regroup with the main army. MC splits his HTs, and sends one up a little ahead of his army to feedback a ghost to death. He pulls back and loses the initial HT, but drops two storms. One whiffs, but the other hits and does a lot of damage to Thorzain's marauder-heavy force.
Thorzain decides to engage, and gets off two snipes and a decent EMP while MC gets a good storm off. Thorzain's EMP doesn't get the sentries, so MC throws up guardian shields and forcefields behind Thorzain's army. Thorzain doesn't load his army into the medivacs to hop over the FFs (as is becoming common), but MC has all his zealots dancing in the back of his army for a bit (both could've microed better, is what I'm saying here). MC doesn't blink away his injured stalkers while they're under fire (not enough APM?), and Thorzain's superior upgrades and streaming reinforcements give him a stronger army, which MC takes a few seconds too long to realize. MC retreats with a small stalker force, and Thorzain darts for MC's fourth.
MC flanks with his stalkers, reinforced with zealots, templar, and an immortal (as he's tech-switching). MC doesn't have enough energy to storm, but he feedbacks a ghost to death, and feedbacks four of Thorzain's five medivacs. Thorzain gets some snipes off, and manages to kill MC's Templar which just kind of walk up to Thorzain's army and say high (micro can still be improved, is what I'm saying), but a round of warp-ins force a retreat.
Thorzain's units meet up with reinforcements and turn back towards MC's fourth, which turns out to be a mistake, as his mostly marauder army has no ghosts to deal with MC's immortals (when 1.3.4 comes out, the massive ball of psionic energy would also be a factor). Thorzain retreats again, and some stalkers blink in to the healing army to poke and bait. When Thorzain doesn't take the bait, MC attacks from the south with Zealots and blinks north with stalkers to try and snipe medivacs. Thorzain goes back to his main, and MC pulls back to his fourth, ending the 2 minute 40-second long battle, but Thorzain is floating a CC to his fifth while MC is still on 4 bases.
16:40 - MC blinks in to snipe some medivacs that were rallied, and Thorzain's medivac count is pitiful. Thorzain stims his whole army, and MC pulls back until the second the stims expire (since Thorzain's healing is at a premium), at which point he feedbacks 5 ghosts in rapid succession. Thorzain stims again, and MC runs a bit before storming Thorzain's entire army, killing nearly everything (the running was so that even if Thorzain dodged the storms, he'd have to stim a THIRD time with his medivacs basically out of energy, which was nearly as good). Thorzain hides back in his base, and MC decides not to pursue, lest a ghost pop out and EMP his mostly-immortal force, and double-expands while switching to Colossus.
18:20 - MC kills one of Thorzain's bases more or less uncontested.
18:50 - Thorzain counterattacks at the whole other end of the map, which is seen in advance by a Zealot at a tower. MC sends out one Templar to storm the front of the army. As the armies engage, MC gets another OK storm and feedbacks a ghost while sending in a dark templar to eliminate the rest of the ghosts. Thorzain either scans the DT, or EMPs it to decloak it while scanning MC's army. (It's not 100% clear from the VOD).
MC's army gets back to flank, but Thorzain sees it with a scan. More importantly, he sees the lack of Observer with the army, and cloaks his Ghosts, which EMP all the immortals in MC's army, reducing them to mewling kittens. Thorzain does "some dropship micro" which honestly conisists of putting 1 marauder in a medivac and unloading it, but smashes MC's army anyway due to a combination of sick EMPs and MC's decision to send his stalkers on one side and his fragile expensive colossus on the other, allowing them to be picked off (micro is not entirely perfect, and better micro than this is possible. All I'm saying). Either way, the casters are shocked, and Thorzain takes down MC's fifth.
High on Victory, Thorzain loads his army for a insta-doom drop in MC's main. He digs to greedily and too deep, and finds zealots warping in front of him while stalkers blink behind. He gets off some snipes, but is stormed into oblivion.
20:40 - Thorzain sends some Marauders to snipe a base. MC warps in some Templar, but there's egg on his face when he remembers they don't spawn with enough energy to storm (this game, while good, isn't the best SC2 can be, is what I'm getting at). Thorzain snipes the Pylons, the Templar, and the expansion, bringing MC down to 4 bases, only one of which is solvent. Thorzain runs his marauders down to that base, but MC cleans up easily.
22:20 - MC gets two storms. Thorzain stims to dodge them, but MC feedbacks all his medivacs, meaning he can't heal at all. Thorzain cloaks his ghost. MC has an Obs this time, but Thorzain manages to hit four HTs that were playing strip meditation in a tight clump (I'm not saying MC or Thorzain is bad, just that it was theoretically possible to have played better is all I'm saying). It's not enough, but Thorzain manages to focus down the colossi before losing his units to storms and thermal lances. MC gets greedy, and loses some immortals to Thorzain's reinforcements thanks to a good EMP. Thorzain tries to press the advantage himself, but gets his ghosts feedbacked for his trouble.
Thorzain backs up. MC starts sending out HTs for more feedbacks, but Thorzain is keeping them at bay by stimming one or two marauders at a time to chase them off without endangering his entire army.
25:13 - MC sends a Dark Templar into Thorzain's army. Thorzain EMPs to decloak it, but misses (practice makes perfect, is all I'm saying), and even misses the scan (lots of practice) before finally EMPing it properly. MC feedbacks the cloaked ghosts, and blinks forward to pick some off, storming the infantry as it comes in. Thorzain dodges the first two storms, but MC has enough energy to keep trying. Now with a commanding lead, MC moves in and finishes the game.
You can also call it "one group of blob units blobbing on the other group of blob units, or a complete set of boring, simplistic blob units blobbing on another group of boring, simplistic blob units", though. I guess. If you wanted to. I prefer it my way.
Yes, obviously it's very impressive that Flash can micro while keeping all his factories spinning, but that's not interesting to play or to watch.
ignoring the fact that the play part is entirely subjective, this has already been responded to in this thread. although the act of watching factories light up in fp is not exciting, it IS exciting to watch players balance macro and micro according their own personal abilities. no player is absolutely perfect, so its more exciting when there are people like best around that have a penchant for macro, instead of everyone pretty much on equal footing.
yes, ive seen that video before, and once again im entirely unimpressed. sorry, but one game does not change sc2's units being boring and its macro/micro completely stripped down. got anything else?
The problem is that a lot of the really impressive part of Brood War aren't impressive until you've played BW and thrown your laptop out the window because of how frustrating the interface can get.
This is not really true, i have never played Brood War (outside of that time 10+ years ago when i played for a little bit then jumped onto the next game shortly after).
Fast forward 10 years, only watching now, I absolutely love the beautiful gameplay. The many skirmishes throughout the game (something that Sc2 sorely lacks) and the "marching" movements of the army makes it wonderful to watch as opposed to its "blob vs blob" counterpart (yes thats how i see it, i know the poster above think differently). Like someone else mentioned, a 200/200 army in Sc2 takes up as much space as 10 Dragoons, it just cant look epic when it looks so small.
Exam in 2 hours, no time to watch the VoD or read ur Battle Report, sry >.<
On April 28 2011 15:25 Ribbon wrote: The problem is that a lot of the really impressive part of Brood War aren't impressive until you've played BW....
Isn't it the same with SC2? Will people that never played SC2 will be impressed by those trick? I've shown my friend very impressive SC2 and BW(a year ago) and they were not really impressed. And they went back playing SF and Dota.. >.> T.T
The only difference I see is that SC2 has alot of people currently playing it while SC:BW has alot of people who has "played" it.
Edit: T.T Typo.. Me wants to play SC2 with my friends...
On April 28 2011 15:25 Ribbon wrote: Yes, obviously it's very impressive that Flash can micro while keeping all his factories spinning, but that's not interesting to play or to watch. It would be impressive if all the TSL players played with a live weasel in their pants, but it wouldn't attract anyone new, and it would stay niche.
Again, as audience members we don't see that. When we see good macro, we see someone having a ton of units when other people wouldn't normally have that many, based on other games that we've seen.
The problem is that a lot of the really impressive part of Brood War aren't impressive until you've played BW and thrown your laptop out the window because of how frustrating the interface can get.
Not really. If you watch games you can see how some players are better than others, based on how the games contrast with each other. Appreciating strategical depth is not necessarily the same as entertainment value. Most sports have strategical depth that far surpasses the average viewer, but no one cares about it. You don't need to know that the mike linebacker in american football hit the gap perfectly with the right timing and had great speed on the second half of his spin move to approach the quarterback at the perfect angle in order to bring him down, you just care that someone's ass got sacked.
If you're not really really into BW, that's what BW looks like, too. And yes, I'm sure everyone who just read that went "Blasphemy!". Because if you really truly understand BW, you understand how subtle and complex and brilliant it is that a vulture is turning at a 36 degree angle instead of the standard 45 for this position. You have to know Brood War to appreciate Brood War.
BW looks nothing like that because there's an increased emphasis on multitasking, small attacking and harassing forces and there's action everywhere on the map. On top of that, army vs. army in BW can have drastically different results depending on the stage of the game and micro. That rarely happens in SC2.
To some extent I feel like Browder is taking too much heat here for SC2 when his design team was also responsible, if not more responsible. I feel like SC2 probably had all these cool units and abilities to begin with, but was then pared down tremendously to be more like "the serious e-sport" BW, and in turn we get this half-assed game that isn't quite fresh or revolutionary, and yet is not as competitive as BW.
On April 28 2011 08:38 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I think you guys might be misreading what Browder is saying by "fun." I think by fun, he means gimmicky things that are like cool random abilities but don't really add to the functionality or balance of units. I mean, look at all those insane abilities the mothership had in the very early stages of the beta. A lot of people are reading a bit too much into the specific route they are balancing the game, as opposed to just his general clash in philosophy in "command and conquer with hundreds of random unit types that look cool and do crazy shit!" to "balance and simplicity!"
Browder himself said they never thought players would use blink to jump cliffs. Or that they even considered removing the archon?
Its okay to have zero faith in the SC2 design team.
? I'm just explaining what Browder tried to say, not about whether he's reaching the goals he articulates in this statement.
Funnily enough, the MC vs Thorzain game contains the only micro moment that ever impressed me a bit in sc2, when MC feedbacks most ghosts in Thorzain's army. As I dislike the blob vs blob stuff (that is very present in that game, and who is pretty boring apart from those moment), it makes clicking on a lot of ghost fast a bit hard imho. The funny part is that a few days after, their was a thread in the sc sections asking blizzard to make bigger model, because it was too hard. A few people said it was stupid, but a lot other people were saying "everybody's not MC". Yep, great mentality guys. An example of a game which show impressive macro are many best games, or flash vs 815 on Odd-Eye. Funnily enough the observer seldom shows buildings. But everybody gasps when they see the huge army coming out. Because they've seen other games before, and they see the difference.
On April 28 2011 15:25 Ribbon wrote: Yes, obviously it's very impressive that Flash can micro while keeping all his factories spinning, but that's not interesting to play or to watch. It would be impressive if all the TSL players played with a live weasel in their pants, but it wouldn't attract anyone new, and it would stay niche.
Again, as audience members we don't see that.
Actually, if you go watch SC live, for Proleague they are showing first person view during the whole game (especially OGN has really nice studio). And sometimes, I was really impressed by that - when someone like Jaedong or Flash is playing so much faster than other players.
On April 28 2011 18:18 corumjhaelen wrote: The funny part is that a few days after, their was a thread in the sc sections asking blizzard to make bigger model, because it was too hard. A few people said it was stupid, but a lot other people were saying "everybody's not MC". Yep, great mentality guys.
are you serious? that is disgusting.
The whole reason I started playing BW online is because I wanted to be able to do all the incredible things the pros could do. This generation of players is despicable. Its like modern video games have aided players into regressing back into the incredibly immature and obnoxious mentality that they had as toddlers.
On April 28 2011 18:18 corumjhaelen wrote: The funny part is that a few days after, their was a thread in the sc sections asking blizzard to make bigger model, because it was too hard. A few people said it was stupid, but a lot other people were saying "everybody's not MC". Yep, great mentality guys.
are you serious? that is disgusting.
The whole reason I started playing BW online is because I wanted to be able to do all the incredible things the pros could do. This generation of players is despicable. Its like modern video games have aided players into regressing back into the incredibly immature and obnoxious mentality that they had as toddlers.
hehe this comment made me think of this:
hmm this interview makes me understand better the difficulties of making a good game and I appreciate Browder's attitude of making the game simpler to make it balanced. I mean, it is really a miracle that BW works with such strange units as the defiler, for example. I'm sure they will be able to make the game more complex with the expansions.
My biggest problem with SC2 is the slow pace and the feeling that all the action takes place on a very little space.
On April 25 2011 21:22 ShadeR wrote: Found this gem comment in the source article lol.
"Vincent Goossens 22 Apr 2011 at 1:10 pm PST SC1 and BW have had hundreds of patches before it became good and it took years. And only then it became popular with the Koreans. Don't forget that. A good game takes time, and it has to be shaped while it's in the open."
This is factually wrong, it didn't have hundreds of patches O.o.
On April 28 2011 18:18 corumjhaelen wrote: The funny part is that a few days after, their was a thread in the sc sections asking blizzard to make bigger model, because it was too hard. A few people said it was stupid, but a lot other people were saying "everybody's not MC". Yep, great mentality guys.
are you serious? that is disgusting.
The whole reason I started playing BW online is because I wanted to be able to do all the incredible things the pros could do. This generation of players is despicable. Its like modern video games have aided players into regressing back into the incredibly immature and obnoxious mentality that they had as toddlers.
hmm this interview makes me understand better the difficulties of making a good game and I appreciate Browder's attitude of making the game simpler to make it balanced. I mean, it is really a miracle that BW works with such strange units as the defiler, for example. I'm sure they will be able to make the game more complex with the expansions.
My biggest problem with SC2 is the slow pace and the feeling that all the action takes place on a very little space.
There is no way justify lack of MBS in SC2 except for the sake of competitivness if it was introduced. You don't see the player make go insane and macro, so should we just let SCVS autobuild?I mean a quick rightclick ont he CC and your CC will automatically continiously make Scvs, I mean cmon! You don't see it happen either.
The reason that it is impressive is because you know that he is doing that, you don't see it but you know, if Best is pumping out of 24 gateways while doing impressive engaging in PvT you know you are watching one of the best players. You don't see him pumping out of 24 gateways, but you know it is happening. These MBS mechanics cut the good from the best players, sure it is unjustifieable and shouldn't be incorporated in SC2 but you can't deny that attributes to the specatorship. There is a good reason why IloveOOv was famed for his macro, even though we couldn't see him do it apart from the result. A bucketload of units on the field.
On April 28 2011 19:23 zlosynus wrote: Actually, if you go watch SC live, for Proleague they are showing first person view during the whole game (especially OGN has really nice studio). And sometimes, I was really impressed by that - when someone like Jaedong or Flash is playing so much faster than other players.
i didn't mean that we don't see it literally but, rather, the process of macroing perfectly is not as impressive or important to the audience compared to the results of macroing.
On April 28 2011 16:20 kainzero wrote: BW looks nothing like that because there's an increased emphasis on multitasking, small attacking and harassing forces and there's action everywhere on the map
We're still seeing players not play very optimally. I made fun of all the little micro mistakes MC and Thorzain made, but there are serious flaws in even the top levels. Stalkers (which go in the back) are faster than Zealots (which go in the front), so a-moving a protoss ball will have all your zealors dancing in the back while the stalkers are taking hits. MC lost a battle that way. If even one of the best players in the world is making such silly mistakes, can we really say SC2 battles as we see them is the best they can be? Not really.
Terrans are starting to drop Protoss with Marauders a lot now, thanks to the KA removal. See Topclass vs MMA on XNC.
On top of that, army vs. army in BW can have drastically different results depending on the stage of the game and micro. That rarely happens in SC2.
Because, as I kept pointing out in my recap of Thorzain/MC, even at the pro level, people's micro kind of sucks still (Zealots behind stalkers! ZEALOTS. behind STALKERS. And he's one of the best in the world, right now).
Battles can be decided by micro. Boxer won a battle pretty lopsidedly due to EMPs. :
It's just not happening because people aren't microing well. We're not seeing enough really good micro vs really good micro. We're seeing bursts of good micro versus HERP DERP I'M GOING TO CLUMP UP ALL MY CASTERS AND SEND MY OBSERVER ELSEWHERE, HOPE HE DON'T GOT GHOSTS. OH HE'S NUKING ME? BETTER WARP DTS UNDER THE RED DOT!
Come back in December for the Blizzard cup. Maybe by then professional Starcraft 2 players will have learned to play SC2 at a mildly competent level, and we'll actually have "high level" games to judge instead of the "less shitty than everyone else" games we have now, and we can actually judge it.
To some extent I feel like Browder is taking too much heat here for SC2 when his design team was also responsible, if not more responsible. I feel like SC2 probably had all these cool units and abilities to begin with, but was then pared down tremendously to be more like "the serious e-sport" BW, and in turn we get this half-assed game that isn't quite fresh or revolutionary, and yet is not as competitive as BW.
I feel like trying to make SC2 more like Brood War will exacerbate, not resolve, this issue. SC2 will never out-Brood War Brood War, and it shouldn't even try. If there are issues, they should be solved in a way BW didn't solve them, or else SC2 will never be more than a cheap BW clone. BW fans are going to prefer BW, and there's pretty much nothing SC2 can do about that, so it should evolve naturally and be the best Starcraft 2 it can be.
Here's a random game from the 2001 OSL finals
This was the 6th OSL, so it's about comparable to where SC2 is now (6th GSL), with a few more years since release for players to learn "basics" like macro. You can see two things
1. Long way to go, right? 2. Wow, SC2 would benefit so much from island maps. It's more suited to that then BW was, actually. Hm.
On April 28 2011 18:18 corumjhaelen wrote: The funny part is that a few days after, their was a thread in the sc sections asking blizzard to make bigger model, because it was too hard. A few people said it was stupid, but a lot other people were saying "everybody's not MC". Yep, great mentality guys.
are you serious? that is disgusting.
The whole reason I started playing BW online is because I wanted to be able to do all the incredible things the pros could do. This generation of players is despicable. Its like modern video games have aided players into regressing back into the incredibly immature and obnoxious mentality that they had as toddlers.
remember that SC2 did attract immature people along with guys from our own BW community its not surprising that shit like that happens.Blizzard is stupid but not that stupid.
Flash having all his factories spinning isn't the impressive part, it's the fact he manages to micro everything well at the same time. Because other players can't do that as well, you can tell it's him playing just by watching the game and it's exciting because you don't see it.
Contrast to SC2 where everyone can do this and the micro is less exciting precisely because you see it in every game. It's not hard to understand. Now i'm sure someone's gonna pop up and say 'omg i don't care how hard it is i just like the end result!' which i'm going to ignore so don't bother saying it.
People ARE impressed by BW play without necessarily playing it (although of course most specators will have played it at some point). That's why there's loads of casual fans in the audience and you hear cheering at impressing storms or even good macro.
Also Ribbon why are you even trying to compare to a game from 2001, how many fucking times does it need to be said that BW experience DIRECTLY helps SC2 players.. people are going into the game with immediate knowledge of RTS fundamentals and great mechanics. This is the most irritating fallacy that people on this forum constantly repeat. Stop comparing it to back then, it's completely stupid. You admit people didn't even understand the concept of a 'macro' game back then, then you compare it to SC2 today, it's retarded. Then you got xbankx spawing a whole page of shit about build orders when the only point was that BW back then didn't even have this concept properly.
The 'give it time' shit is seriously the most annoying thing on here.
EPT
- when someone like Jaedong or Flash is playing so much faster than other players.
