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Sweden33723 Posts
On July 08 2004 20:17 WtF.Dondy wrote: FrozenArbiter, i watched the city reps AND he didn't use a single queen in all of them (i know he uses queens to show of two times in the rep pack on sg.com)sOoOoOoO, still waiting for a hint on usefull use of queens  gogogogo 1:1 1+++ reps z queen vs tpz 
Blah I have seen him use queens, try to find xellos vs sonic)black, ygclan is down temporarily though 
Btw, Drone vs Crystal - was posted on this site I think, or http://www.teamareola.com
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Sweden33723 Posts
On July 08 2004 23:35 tfeign wrote: Show nested quote +On July 08 2004 22:39 88)KicKDoG wrote: hell i beat iloveoov 2-1, both games i won i used queens, and i used them VERY VERY VERY effectively in 1 game, and would have lost without the queens. so there ya go, 1 pro gamer replay in which queens ultimately made the difference. www.people.virginia.edu/~fgt4w/iloveoov1.repwww.people.virginia.edu/~fgt4w/iloveoov2.rep (better queen usage) (yes, i know he wasnt trying, and yes, im sure it was the real iloveoov, verified by many koreans, including zerglee who ive talked to and played with many times, and is on iloveoov's team, and also by ppl at ygclan.com, and a few kinda well known koreans around at the time i played him) KickDog.. These replays proved absolutely nothing. Reasons given below Replay #1: You won this game because you harassed the shit out of him with lurkers. You would have won the game anyway REGARDLESS IF YOU HAD MADE QUEENS OR NOT. Queens did not change the outcome of the game AT ALL. You won the game already before the queen did anything. Replay #2: You won the game because you harassed the shit out of him with lurkers again. However, this time the queen does come into play more as you stole his command centers. However, did I ever complain that command center infestation is underpowered? NEVER. This is an excellent example of underused vs underpowered. Infestation is underused, but I never ever said it was underpowered. I fully understand that infestation is underused, but not underpowered. What I bitch at is Infested Terrans, Spawn Broodling, and Ensnare. These 2 spells and unit ARE UNDERUSED AND UNDERPOWERED. These 2 spells & the weakness of infested terrans are what make the queen suck. How many times have you seen these spells changed the outcome of a game? Compare that with how many times you've seen a defiler changed the outcome of a game
You are just dumb, ensnare is fucking cost effective! I mean seriously, it's the most cost effective shit I've ever seen.. Kickdog/drone uses queens in like every serious game they play?
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On July 09 2004 06:49 FrozenArbiter wrote: Show nested quote +On July 09 2004 06:42 sushiman wrote: On July 08 2004 19:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Gol and turret would only do 50% : ) they would do 75% since they deal explosive damage. Urgh, isn't mutalisks medium units, and doesn't turrets do 50% to them? T_T
Mutalisks are considered small units.
Explosive damage deal 75% to medium units and 50% to small units. Then there's concussive that deal 50% to medium units and 25% to large units.
That's why scouts would be better as medium sized units. They have a strong air attack and the most hp of the 3 basic air units, but since mutalisks have a bouncing attack and wraiths can upgrade the extremely useful cloak ability, scouts aren't worth the high price and supply since they can't compensate for most anti-air attacks.
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Milzo
France656 Posts
tfeign you're just being annoying now, you're not really listening to the good points that are made in response to your propositions.
Oh, and I don't know why you're fixating on infested terrans, they're just an added fun bonus, it's not a "real" unit (they can be present in only one mu), the queen is powerful without this whole deal of infesting command centers. Seriously, re-read your last post, it makes no sense, it feels like you just wanted to be pissed of and argue with everybody about what is most certainly a lost cause.
Peace.
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how about broodlings, they are weaker than workers for god's sake
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Sweden33723 Posts
On July 09 2004 08:35 sushiman wrote: Show nested quote +On July 09 2004 06:49 FrozenArbiter wrote: On July 09 2004 06:42 sushiman wrote: On July 08 2004 19:48 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Gol and turret would only do 50% : ) they would do 75% since they deal explosive damage. Urgh, isn't mutalisks medium units, and doesn't turrets do 50% to them? T_T Mutalisks are considered small units. Explosive damage deal 75% to medium units and 50% to small units. Then there's concussive that deal 50% to medium units and 25% to large units. That's why scouts would be better as medium sized units. They have a strong air attack and the most hp of the 3 basic air units, but since mutalisks have a bouncing attack and wraiths can upgrade the extremely useful cloak ability, scouts aren't worth the high price and supply since they can't compensate for most anti-air attacks.
Ohhhhh mutalisks are small 
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On July 09 2004 08:41 Milzo wrote:
tfeign you're just being annoying now, you're not really listening to the good points that are made in response to your propositions.
Oh, and I don't know why you're fixating on infested terrans, they're just an added fun bonus, it's not a "real" unit (they can be present in only one mu), the queen is powerful without this whole deal of infesting command centers. Seriously, re-read your last post, it makes no sense, it feels like you just wanted to be pissed of and argue with everybody about what is most certainly a lost cause.
Peace.
What the hell? What was the good point being made? I watched the 2 replays and the good point that was made was that infestation can be a useful spell. Did I not agree with his point? Both replays showed that infestation can be useful, and I agree -- what the hell do you want me to say?
When did I ever say that infestation sucks? So what exactly am I saying to you that's "not really listening to the good points that are made in response to your propositions." when my propositions NEVER even touched infestation in the first place? DID you read my post entirely and understand it??
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Sweden33723 Posts
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Frozenarbiter,
It seems that you gave changed your mind because of the statement:
"I mean for fucks sake the queen costs the same as a muta, has the same hp as a muta and flies as fast as a muta. however one ensnare or one broodling is normally far more effective than the damage dealt by *one* muta."
My opinions:
1. Mutas are not supposed to be made in groups of 1, but in groups of 5+
2. Mutas can harass workers, queens can't
3. Mutas can kill buildings, queens can't
4. Mutas can attack any kind of unit, queens only broodling mechanicals
5. You can mass up mutas way before you can get queens with enough energy so that they can deal any real damage, which by that time you could have been attacked by the enemy multiple times without sufficient units to defend and/or counter
6. Mutas can defend your base from drops, especially in zvt mnm/bats drops, or zvp reaver/dt/zealot drops. Queens can't
7. Mutas can morph into guardians later on in the game when you need.
8. In zvt mutas will force terran to waste hundreds, if not thousands of minerals on turrets, bunkers, and leaving marines in their base as well as any of their expansions for a while, during that time you can mass expand. Queens will not make terrans waste money on these buidings
9. In zvp mutas will force the protoss player to waste hundreds, if not thousands of minerals on cannons around their base as well as any of their expansions. Queens will not make protoss players waste money on these buidings
10. Mutas will greatly delay any other opponent from expanding until they can get enough troops to defend their expo from muta harass. Queens will not delay them from expanding any time they want.
11. In zvz you need mutas MUCH MUCH more than you need queens. That's a no brainer
12. There are a lot more but I wont name them, like muta can attack air units, queens doesn't deal dmg to any air unit, muta will delay terrans from rushing you with mnms, queens can and etc. but I won't name them all
So the post does bring up a good point, as one of the reasons why queens very very rarely made is because a muta is generally much more cost-effective than a queen in every single matchups there is. That's why I've been suggesting lowering the energy cost for the queen spells
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On July 09 2004 13:32 tfeign wrote: Frozenarbiter, It seems that you gave changed your mind because of the statement: "I mean for fucks sake the queen costs the same as a muta, has the same hp as a muta and flies as fast as a muta. however one ensnare or one broodling is normally far more effective than the damage dealt by *one* muta." My opinions: 1. Mutas are not supposed to be made in groups of 1, but in groups of 5+ 2. Mutas can harass workers, queens can't 3. Mutas can kill buildings, queens can't 4. Mutas can attack any kind of unit, queens only broodling mechanicals 5. You can mass up mutas way before you can get queens with enough energy so that they can deal any real damage, which by that time you could have been attacked by the enemy multiple times without sufficient units to defend and/or counter 6. Mutas can defend your base from drops, especially in zvt mnm/bats drops, or zvp reaver/dt/zealot drops. Queens can't 7. Mutas can morph into guardians later on in the game when you need. 8. In zvt mutas will force terran to waste hundreds, if not thousands of minerals on turrets, bunkers, and leaving marines in their base as well as any of their expansions for a while, during that time you can mass expand. Queens will not make terrans waste money on these buidings 9. In zvp mutas will force the protoss player to waste hundreds, if not thousands of minerals on cannons around their base as well as any of their expansions. Queens will not make protoss players waste money on these buidings 10. Mutas will greatly delay any other opponent from expanding until they can get enough troops to defend their expo from muta harass. Queens will not delay them from expanding any time they want. 11. In zvz you need mutas MUCH MUCH more than you need queens. That's a no brainer 12. There are a lot more but I wont name them, like muta can attack air units, queens doesn't deal dmg to any air unit, muta will delay terrans from rushing you with mnms, queens can and etc. but I won't name them all So the post does bring up a good point, as one of the reasons why queens very very rarely made is because a muta is generally much more cost-effective than a queen in every single matchups there is. That's why I've been suggesting lowering the energy cost for the queen spells
Tfeign, just give up man, you are wrong and plenty of people have proved it.
I will formally counter-argue every point you've made here, queen vs muta.
' My opinions ' :
1. Queens are also not supposed to be made in groups of 1. Btw moron, one is not a group. You need at least 4-5 queens [ Just like you said 5+ mutas ] to: A. Survive long enough to cast shit 2. Have enough so waiting on mana is not a constant issue. 3. To make up for the resources you used to upgrade their spells.
2. Queens can't harass workers? Lolz, you have to be shitting me. Ever see ensnare on workers? Ensnare is in MOST cases better than mutas, why? Because one you get advantage financially, and if any units come to protect, your ensnare hits them too so at which point you can counter his front or do some other type of harass as it will take his units a long time to get somewhere else.
3. Since you want to be so god damn specific I will be too: Queens can't kill buildings? Uh, with 4-5 queens you can easily broodling enough workers to kill all peons which means that exp is useless. Not to mention that you can ' infest ' which is BETTER than destroying the CC.
4. Queens can ensnare any type of unit, can broodling non-robotic ground units, AND can parasite Mutas can only attack, ever look at it that way?
5. True, You CAN mass up mutas way before queens have energy, because think about it, unless you're a retard who the hell goes queens nest before mutas if your plan is to have mutes as your main force.
Next, your arguement about not having enough units to defend/and or counter is completely wrong. Queens cost nothing mineral-wise, and as you said yourself you don't need/get as many queens as you get mutes so therefore, sunks and lings can be made, which is adequate enough to hold off any counter.
6. True, mutas can defend your base from drops. False what you said about queens. Your definition of defense is very vague. If terran comes with double tank drop or just gols and tanks, you broodling them = You defended your base AND now you have harass units. If toss or zerg drops you can ensnare which is also a type of ' Defense ' if you deny this then you're also denying that d-matrix which is also a spell is not ' Defense ' Idk about you but even if I know I am going to lose, I'd rather fight ensnared units than non-ensnared ones.
7. Um, queens usefullness is 100% from the moment you have them. So tell me if that's worse than having to get/wait for greater spire for something that will most likely die because by that time it's late game and guard just gets pwned too easily nowadays.
8 + 9. Yeah man you're so right on these two, I mean I've never EVER seen anyone get turrets against queens. I mean they're just queens right? All they do is broodling tanks on cliffs so cracks can go through and rape everything.
10. Again, queens can ensnare the worker going on the way to expand and you'll have enough time for a ling to come and clean it up, either that or parasite it or broodling it ' If possible '
11. Um..... ZvZ? Air vs Air, Ensnare + Scourge + less mutas is better than Mutas+scourge. Hydra vs muta, ensnare hydras and counter his main?
12. Yeah all these points I already covered.
Mutas more cost effective than a queen in every single matchup? Don't think so.
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tfeign, why do you still insist that every unit must have the same impact in every game?
theres a reason why zerglings aren't always as good as ults, and theres a reason why queens/darkarchons aren't always as good as defilers/temps. give it up and stop whining like a little child
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Milzo
France656 Posts
On July 09 2004 10:38 tfeign wrote: Show nested quote +On July 09 2004 08:41 Milzo wrote:
tfeign you're just being annoying now, you're not really listening to the good points that are made in response to your propositions.
Oh, and I don't know why you're fixating on infested terrans, they're just an added fun bonus, it's not a "real" unit (they can be present in only one mu), the queen is powerful without this whole deal of infesting command centers. Seriously, re-read your last post, it makes no sense, it feels like you just wanted to be pissed of and argue with everybody about what is most certainly a lost cause.
Peace. What the hell? What was the good point being made? I watched the 2 replays and the good point that was made was that infestation can be a useful spell. Did I not agree with his point? Both replays showed that infestation can be useful, and I agree -- what the hell do you want me to say? When did I ever say that infestation sucks? So what exactly am I saying to you that's "not really listening to the good points that are made in response to your propositions." when my propositions NEVER even touched infestation in the first place? DID you read my post entirely and understand it??
I'm talking in general about the power of queens. It's a very good unit as it is, with or without infestation. I can't believe you're having this whole argument about infestation and infested terrans. It's so uninteresting.
On the whole discussion, I think you raise some good points but the balance between races is the most important thing in SC. It has been achieved so I believe that it would be dangerous to try to change some units since that could lead to unbalance between races.
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PvZ balance could definitely use some work my friend, lurk ridge and lurk contains aren't coolio in my book
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On July 08 2004 21:57 Hoops wrote:
Get 1-2 queens and ensnare the terran army when it starts to move out. Terran will most likely just stop and not risk getting flanked. If they do move you can flank them. Queens work very well against m&m. They also work on speed lots if you catch them massing in groups before attacking. They are also and ESSENTIAL unit on ISLANDS.
DAs vs ultra ling. Try it out. I have no idea why more tos players don't use it against people who get ultras off 4 gas (anymore than that and zerg is probally just gonna run all over you either way). Archons without shield upgrades really aren't that powerful vs fully upgraded ultras, temps don't do enough other than kill lings.
Let me say this one last time. Queens have an IMPORTANT use for the zerg army. They will NEVER be as effective as defilars and they never were intended to be. Temps and DAs just were NEVER ever ever made for you to have to choose one or the other. They have totaly differnt uses in the game.
Don't think of the units like frozenarbitor said. Think of them as possisional units. Temps are useful vs hydras, all pvp battles, and in some pvt battles early-mid game. Archons are useful vs mutas, m&m if you even get in that possition, they can be used in pvp. DAs are good vs ultras ling and can be used in special cases in other matchups though aren't really a good choice imo (feedback vs temps or mind control in any case because of lack of mobility).
tfein it appears to me that you just avoid some good points made by other people. this is just one good post. i want to know what is your response to it.
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oh,he has countered it, because these units haven't affected the outcome of the game as much as defilers, so therefore they suck. see?? it makes perfect sense please read next time
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Milzo
France656 Posts
On July 09 2004 14:16 RuGbUg wrote:
PvZ balance could definitely use some work my friend, lurk ridge and lurk contains aren't coolio in my book
Use DAs to MC the lurkers?
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On July 07 2004 14:58 tfeign wrote:
Queen: WAY underused unit, and rightfully so because queens suck ass for their cost-effectiveness.
followed by you saying
On July 08 2004 23:35 tfeign wrote:KickDog..
These replays proved absolutely nothing.
followed by you saying:
On July 08 2004 23:35 tfeign wrote:
What I bitch at is Infested Terrans, Spawn Broodling, and Ensnare. These 2 spells and unit ARE UNDERUSED AND UNDERPOWERED. These 2 spells & the weakness of infested terrans are what make the queen suck.
Ummm... my replays proved that queens are "cost-effective" you originally said that your complaint is that queens are NOT cost effective. therefore, this replay proves something.
Also, you admitted queens changed the outcome of the game in that game with me infesting cc's, which proves you wrong saying queens suck, but you tell me i prove nothing?
and btw, i never said BOTH games had queens changing the outcomes, i said ONE game the queen changed the outcome. then u got an attitude and tried to get back at me by saying queens didnt make a difference in the first game. ummm... its implied that queens didnt make the difference in both games when i specifically said that queens made the difference in ONE of the games.
plz think before responding this time, and ill forgive you for the lack of intelligence in your first response.
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As shown here, you will get owned by the sane TL community, therefore, quit bitching and try to contribute useful things here, otherwise go whine somewhere else.
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i still think 20 hp scourges are a wonderful idea...
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so that takes care of your balance issues with that unit having no purpose. it has a purpose, and its just underused, so theres no balance issue there. unless you want to complain about how there are things that are completely useless such as spells, upgrades, etc. Well, say you lowered the cost of broodling or ensnare and made infested terrans more powerful. then the queen has 905843905834 uses and would be WAY imbalanced in favor of zerg, because queens already OWN. not my fault pros dont understand that yet. and if you are simply mad that there things in sc that arent worth their money, such as ensnare (even tho i believe its worth it), then why dont you also complain about worthless things like overlord sight upgrade? or scout sight upgrade? or wraith energy limit upgrade? all worthless, but WHO CARES? IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. the easiest way to get rid of worthless things such as those is to simply remove them from the game, but NOBODY CARES about them, so why bother spending the time? and if you say they should make changes to make every spell, upgrade, etc useful, then ur asking for SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much time to make them useful, and then make all these other changes to maintain the great balance bw has now, and NOBODY is willing to do that much work, especially blizzard on a game this old.
so... any other complaints about queens?
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EPT
