|
I have a lot of time at my hand now that I'm working so I decided to spend my worktime in a good way. I hope someone has the effort to read what I'm about to write here... blabla. Ookay, so here goes.
New generation of spellzergs
Well I was playing other day and I started wondering about the uses second most (or most) underused unit of the game. Queen. For some time now I've been wondering how they could be meld into the modern zergstyles to make it most efficient. Ensnare is probably the best queen spell on general level while broodlings are good for zvt and zvp. Parasite of course is everyone's friend and in zvp it rocks even more because there's no real way to heal it from archons or such. So anyways, I did a bit of a research and tried out an ums map & stuff and here's what I got.
Queens in Zerg versus Terran
I made not so reliable tests with hydra&queen vs m&m. I tried with micro and without micro and the result was surpricingly nice. When fighting against m&m, ensnare seemed to give an advantage to the zerg around 40%! Which lead to fact that queens are useful when their cost is less than the 40% (maybe 30% if we don't want to be too optimistic) of the troops at use. Getting two queens with ensnaretech costs 50 (drone) + 150m100g (queens nest) + 100m100g (ensnare upgrade) + 200m200g (2 queens). So this totals 500minerals and 400gas. Let's say that's the 40% of the troop cost, you only need to have roughly 750 mineral and 1000gas troops (which you'll probably have as a zerg, somewhere around midgame) to make it efficient.
The research is of course not accurate and the % aren't guaranteed, but if this could increase efficiency by 30% or more, wouldn't it be worth trying?
Queens also gather the total of 100 energy in the time it takes to update both ensnare and broodling. Using ensnare on the bunch of marines would make their stimpack useless (someone tell how much more efficient are marines exactly [how big addition to rate of fire and speed?]).
Sooo basically teching to queen when you have around 10 mutas or around the same amount of hydralurk resourcevice, it might be worth it to tech to queens. Queens are also a long term investment and killing down tanks with broodlings is priceless and sweet though it takes quite some time to load. But just with two queens you can ensnare whole bunch of m&m.
Teching to queen also allows many possibilities to continue from. You can go fast hive or you can play macro zerg and expand more. The queen cost is also pretty much the same which the cost would be to tech to drops, so it might be used as an alternative too.
Queens in Zerg versus Protoss
Another matchup which is just crying out for queens! Rarely seen used in the progamer circles (besides used by Sinji_NT) queens would be a VALUABLE asset in zvp. Ensnare on speedlots, goons and archons renders them helpless vs masshydra. Defending protoss' templars will get broodlinged and even though there are many ways of having querillawar vs a protoss, this might just be one of the most efficient. Snatching of templars, parasiting archons and ensnaring everything else would give zerg a clear edge over his opponents.
Also as Tsunami has stated when he still was around, defilers are so underused in zvp. Using plague on protoss units and building takes away something like 70% of their effectiveness (excluding archons).
Queens in Zerg versus Zerg
Also a matchup which could use some renewing. The uses of queens could be many in this matchup. Ensnaring opponent mutas so that you could attack his expo or ensnaring a part of them so the other part would get raped. Parasites might also be a good idea but wouldn't probably be good enough reason alone to tech to queen. And muta count again should be high enough before even trying.
It would also allow a smooth pass to hivetech and devourers which are the best comeback unit if you're losing and airwar. Also a good guarantee that you won't if you're winning.
Some more thoughts, and bad sides
Using queens makes the requirements for multitasking higher and harden the micro you must use. Often when playing pimp and using queens, the normal part of the game is forgotten and the queens get too much attention. This is because people are not used to them. In ZvT, use of defilers is becoming more and more popular and people are feeling comfortable with it and can continue on playing normally with them. Getting queens into the game would really spice it up a lot and make zergplay more efficient and funnier to watch.
ps. I was originally going to detail a strategy I planned with the queens but I'll probably post it later. Afterall I'll be working the whole summer :D I hope at least someone finished reading this...
pps. And OH I know this should go to strategy forum but I hope it's not moved there just yet. -.-v
|
excellent read.
now how about ghosts + lockdown? :D
|
i think that this game is so old and has become so streamlined that if something isnt used there is a reasen to it.
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
Actually it did not turn out to be as good as i would've hoped but it's probably because i'm too tired or something. =]
|
Sweden33719 Posts
:D
Queens and guardians=sexy ^_^
|
Norway28736 Posts
this thread has my approval
also I love finnish, what does that mean? 
|
but so many strats nowadays are timing based strats, getting queens or spellcasters faster will get u killed by a timing attack
so imo this is all late game ways to better ur chance at winning good ways to say the least, of course, might work early to mid game but ud need special circumstances there, a bit of an advantage from early game perhaps..
|
Drone, thx =] I'll have sex with you in the WCG then.
It means hmmn "Nose to the butt!" or sumthin' like that.
|
On June 02 2004 04:32 Taguchi wrote: but so many strats nowadays are timing based strats, getting queens or spellcasters faster will get u killed by a timing attack so imo this is all late game ways to better ur chance at winning good ways to say the least, of course, might work early to mid game but ud need special circumstances there, a bit of an advantage from early game perhaps..
You have a point with the timing there, but who says you can't have good timing with the queens. It just needs some practice and many failed attempts. Also, I don't think most people even knew how to react to such originality.
|
China3334 Posts
On June 02 2004 04:20 Muhweli wrote:
Queen. For some time now I've been wondering how they could be meld into the modern zergstyles to make it most efficient.
once muhweli label himself as sacrificing zerg, but now i prefer the nick "modern zerg"
|
good ideas, although they're not really new.
There's already an Art Terran and an Art Protoss (Boxer + Nal_Ra), it's time for an Art Zerg. Yellow, read this and pull something cute out of your ass! Once the koreans do it, everybody'll be doing it.
One shouldn't put too much emphasis on Parasite. That's just a bonus imo. Especially Ensnare in ZvsZ is something worth trying. The other stuff is probably gonna work as well but ZvsZ is sooo boring right now. Time for Drone to unveil his secret new strat.
|
aye maybe it'll work, dunno since ive not really seen it NOT work gogo tryout~
|
Norway28736 Posts
sorry muh but you can't compete with one of your fellow finns
|
On June 02 2004 04:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: sorry muh but you can't compete with one of your fellow finns
[edit] Oh my dear lord! I totally read you wrong there. Missed that "one of" ;D Aqrash will be the only one to bring be trouble and he's going down baby, he's going down! FOR DEATH AND GLORY!
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
|
|
Norway28736 Posts
oh now I was more talking about the sex at wcg part
but anyway lets not go offtopic and stop with the non english flaming
|
On June 02 2004 04:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
oh now I was more talking about the sex at wcg part
but anyway lets not go offtopic and stop with the non english flaming
I bet u mean clawson... ooooooooooookay let's get back to the topic of the day 
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
On June 02 2004 04:56 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote +On June 02 2004 04:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
oh now I was more talking about the sex at wcg part
but anyway lets not go offtopic and stop with the non english flaming
I bet u mean clawson... ooooooooooookay let's get back to the topic of the day
maybe drone isn't gay and actually means a female????? *hint, hint*
other than that nothing really new there , interesting read nonetheless
i dunno , but in ZvZ muta-battles i think having 1 or even better 2 queens ensnaring could be soooooooo much better than spire-upgrades, plus it isn't that costly
|
Norway28736 Posts
if both you and your opponent are just massing mutas from 2 gas and you both have 24+, sacrificing 3 mutas for ensnare is a good move.
but you don't want to do it any earlier.
|
you sure you need that many? You don't have to hit all of 'em you know. If half comes into the fight like 5 to 10 seconds late, pretty many mutas are dead already. And ensnaring them far away and then attacking somewhere will delay them quite a bit. Ensnare slows down rate of fire too aight? =]
|
Norway28736 Posts
oh I know that but wasting 3 mutas when you both have like 15 is potentially very risky. doing it at 20 could work but 24 just is appropriate cause that's 2 groups nomsain
|
your post killed the thread!
|
i need to stick a postit on my monitor that says 'QUEENS!' on it
|
Norway10161 Posts
I'm gonna do that also - but it'll be hard to find spot among the "MACRO DAMNIT!" "DONT ATTACK LURKERS WITH MARINES ONLY!" and "NO TOURNEY WHILE HIGH" notes -_-
|
|
|
does x[reaper]x still post on these forums i left the game for like 4 months and he definitely wasnt the best of players but i used queens and defilers against him regularly if i diddnt use them i beat him probably 95% of the time and if i did use them it was about 50/50
but i wasnt a good zerg player so i dont have much say but i definitely had alot better success with normal play
another thing you cant expand until you have like 2 groups of hydras and about 2-3 queens because their m&m will eat you up Unless you expanded first but than your really slow.
I tried this strategy about 30 times so i actually got a feel for it but i wasnt fast enough or good enough to play it well
|
yeap it's so much about being good with the queens. So many people just copy strats. In queens case, there's nowhere to copy so you gotta work out timings etc without any help from reps or such -.-
|
On June 02 2004 04:36 distant_voice wrote: good ideas, although they're not really new. There's already an Art Terran and an Art Protoss (Boxer + Nal_Ra), it's time for an Art Zerg. Yellow, read this and pull something cute out of your ass! Once the koreans do it, everybody'll be doing it. One shouldn't put too much emphasis on Parasite. That's just a bonus imo. Especially Ensnare in ZvsZ is something worth trying. The other stuff is probably gonna work as well but ZvsZ is sooo boring right now. Time for Drone to unveil his secret new strat.
Couldn't you parasite all the sci V? And scourge them off when they stray away from the pack?
|
just hae around 4-5 queens at the opponents natural expansion (on LT) and then do ensnare once in a while on his or her peon-line... it's usefull
|
Or you could just ensnare his mining activities regulary. He would fall back economically very hard, right ? 
|
Norway10161 Posts
Actually, ensnare has very little effect on mining, since workers spend most of their time harvesting and very little time actually moving. There was test on this long time ago, and conclusion is that its not worth it -_-
|
Norway28736 Posts
itzme_petey parasiting vessels is useful if you wanna get to watch them for ~1 minute
a good terran will counter parasite with restoration.
thus energy is better used for ensnare or broodling.
|
what happened if a parasite unit goes inside a dropship +_+ can u still see it?
|
On June 02 2004 08:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: itzme_petey parasiting vessels is useful if you wanna get to watch them for ~1 minute a good terran will counter parasite with restoration. thus energy is better used for ensnare or broodling.
yea well it might be useful to throw parasite to a vessel or two since you don't have to research it. And like using parasite on just one vessel might lead to terran making a rushed desicion and saccing the vessel. And it only costs 75 energy anyways =]
|
In ZvZ I think ensnare+hydras is the best combo when using queens. This is not new at all so maybe that's why noone have mentioned it...
|
On June 02 2004 06:18 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I'm gonna do that also - but it'll be hard to find spot among the "MACRO DAMNIT!" "DONT ATTACK LURKERS WITH MARINES ONLY!" and "NO TOURNEY WHILE HIGH" notes -_-
Haha...
|
I think blind in tvz is underused...Its cool too.
|
Norway28736 Posts
you can't see parasited units in shuttles
and yeah I often do parasite one vessel. occasionally they kill it or just let it be parasited, there appears to be many terrans who don't know that restoration cures it.
some good terrans too actually.
|
hey eri used ghosts in a game vs me recently =) worked pretty well too. they do pretty fat damage and lockdown is nice , just have to keep them out of harms way.
|
On June 02 2004 08:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
you can't see parasited units in shuttles
and yeah I often do parasite one vessel. occasionally they kill it or just let it be parasited, there appears to be many terrans who don't know that restoration cures it.
some good terrans too actually.
I thought you were protoss user, but you're random? or just playin' others for fun =]
|
On June 02 2004 08:32 Eatme wrote:
In ZvZ I think ensnare+hydras is the best combo when using queens. This is not new at all so maybe that's why noone have mentioned it...
Yea I know, it's underused too though =]
|
I used to use them back before i hit puberty. If that makes any relevant point at all.
|
Norway28736 Posts
muhweli I haven't played anything but random for a long time.
like a year at least
|
|
|
Norway28736 Posts
was pvt pvz pvr zvp before that
|
it is well worth it to build at least 1 queen in a late game zvt and parasite 1 vessel. the queen only costs 100/100 (i think that is the same cost for upgrading restoration, if not less). the building of the queen and casting parasite with it takes as much effort to do as it does to research and then cast restoration, so its not a waste of effort because it costs both players the same effort. and if they dont put in the effort, then you get to see their army, or at least a section of the map wherever they put the vessel, or they sacrifice the vessel, which all help you even more. not to mention you also have the ability to infest command centers at no extra cost if you get the opportunity.
and whoever said there are no reps to learn from. www.wgtour.com --> search for 88)KicKDoG --> download reps ;-)
Ill start using queens every zvt and zvp that reaches mid-late game for anyone who wants to see some ways to use em.
|
On June 02 2004 11:25 88)KicKDoG wrote: it is well worth it to build at least 1 queen in a late game zvt and parasite 1 vessel. the queen only costs 100/100 (i think that is the same cost for upgrading restoration, if not less). the building of the queen and casting parasite with it takes as much effort to do as it does to research and then cast restoration, so its not a waste of effort because it costs both players the same effort. and if they dont put in the effort, then you get to see their army, or at least a section of the map wherever they put the vessel, or they sacrifice the vessel, which all help you even more. not to mention you also have the ability to infest command centers at no extra cost if you get the opportunity. and whoever said there are no reps to learn from. www.wgtour.com --> search for 88)KicKDoG --> download reps ;-) Ill start using queens every zvt and zvp that reaches mid-late game for anyone who wants to see some ways to use em.
I mean pro-gamers don't use 'em 8D
|
|
|
On June 02 2004 10:02 Muhweli wrote: Show nested quote +On June 02 2004 08:32 Eatme wrote:
In ZvZ I think ensnare+hydras is the best combo when using queens. This is not new at all so maybe that's why noone have mentioned it... Yea I know, it's underused too though =]
I guess it's like LT... Everyone use what they are used to. And well I mostly go muta+lings unless I dont play friends coz I'm scared of the "unknown"...
|
On June 02 2004 12:56 Eatme wrote: Show nested quote +On June 02 2004 10:02 Muhweli wrote: On June 02 2004 08:32 Eatme wrote:
In ZvZ I think ensnare+hydras is the best combo when using queens. This is not new at all so maybe that's why noone have mentioned it... Yea I know, it's underused too though =] I guess it's like LT... Everyone use what they are used to. And well I mostly go muta+lings unless I dont play friends coz I'm scared of the "unknown"...
Though Tsunami was convinced hydra-queen owned muta in zvz
|
Norway28736 Posts
ive had a fair amount of success with hydra queen zvz. against koreans I win a lot more using that than I would win attempting a mutalingscourge battle, as I don't have even 1/50 the experience good koreans do with mutascourgeling zvz.
however most good nonkoreans won't lose against it.
|
On June 02 2004 07:04 PheeRed.User wrote:
does x[reaper]x still post on these forums i left the game for like 4 months and he definitely wasnt the best of players but i used queens and defilers against him regularly if i diddnt use them i beat him probably 95% of the time and if i did use them it was about 50/50
but i wasnt a good zerg player so i dont have much say but i definitely had alot better success with normal play
another thing you cant expand until you have like 2 groups of hydras and about 2-3 queens because their m&m will eat you up Unless you expanded first but than your really slow.
I tried this strategy about 30 times so i actually got a feel for it but i wasnt fast enough or good enough to play it well
Haha you exist!
I still play west using x[ReaPeR]x, msg me man.
Just to stay on topic, I though about TvZ Hydra/Queen. If you went Hydra Queen and Like Even two lurkers I think that would be really effective. Unless the Lurkers get owned by Tank focus fire (seems likely) the two Lurkers alone would make the lives of M&M a lot worse because microing ensnared M&M's is basically impossible.
In all honestly though I think the age of Queens has come, they are so good.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
Haha Everyone seems to think that Hydra/Queen vs Terran means No Lurkers! 
|
I find it that its hard to get a good snare off. Also the area that snare covers is kinda small I think If you plan to snare a MM army then attack with lurkers it becomes very difficult and impractical because when the terran sees Snare on his shit he'll reposition his force to get ready for attack, or just retreat. And since its key for a zerg to flank and attack a terran when hes moving I dont see how snare would be effective in that situation.
|
I have no comment on this thread except that more variety in SC is always god (yea for queens)
But I think it really sucks that terran doesnt really have underused units that can be effective. I mean in TvZ you need all the resources you can muster, which is usually little and valks do not justify the expenses, ghosts are easily detected and can only nuke but ... a nuke costs more than an expansion, considering its just a hatch. Vs protoss ghosts are uber hard to use and hardly viable cause they neeed so much gas to make and tanks and upgrades are very essential. PLus the only things you can relaly do with them is lockdown shuttles and try to nuke, but while you waste attention trying to find a good place to nuke and then pulling it off, toss would power up enough to make up for any losses (s)he may suffer.
Also valks are shit tvp
Valks are shit tvt
BCs are shit tvp
BCs are shit TvZ
Scis are shit TvP (emp shockwave is so freaking small I once missed 4 arbiters coming to recall in my base even though I had the sci and i clicked with decent precision.) etc... terran is hard to be creative with nowadays imo
|
no t will ever sac a vessel cuz of para
it screams "DO THAT AGAIN PLEASE I AM STUPID"
you do see alot of "hey, he used gas and disadvantaged his tech to get a queen, then used up energy to parasite me. i'll attack right now."
|
MURICA15980 Posts
On June 02 2004 15:05 Chobohobo wrote: I find it that its hard to get a good snare off. Also the area that snare covers is kinda small I think If you plan to snare a MM army then attack with lurkers it becomes very difficult and impractical because when the terran sees Snare on his shit he'll reposition his force to get ready for attack, or just retreat. And since its key for a zerg to flank and attack a terran when hes moving I dont see how snare would be effective in that situation.
He still moves slower and doesn't shoot as fast. Basically it negates stim packs. So imo, it is well worth it.
|
Norway28736 Posts
if you have a bunch of gas, making ghosts tvp is really good.. I mean, if mineral is your limit, you can waste 5 ghosts locking one goon (which is much less than you will actually manage to do) and not be behind.
although if the game progressed normally and you have more minerals than gas, you should only make ghosts vs carrier and arbiter
|
On June 02 2004 17:38 Casper... wrote:
no t will ever sac a vessel cuz of para
it screams "DO THAT AGAIN PLEASE I AM STUPID"
you do see alot of "hey, he used gas and disadvantaged his tech to get a queen, then used up energy to parasite me. i'll attack right now."
a perfectly timed flank of 24 hydras and 10 lurkers is more effective than an imperfectly timed attack of 24 hydras and 12 lurkers.
|
omfg when you guys say timed. Do you mean with stop watch and calculator? Because if you do... i quit.
|
by timed they mean that at the right moment and right situation. SC has a certain flow to it and good players can sense when their opponent is vulnurable and will attack.
|
I self-proclaim myself the GREATEST Terran vs Zerg player outside of korea. (im not even joking) So, if you wanna try those zerg strats, feel free to msg me for a game. I play mostly on Europe.
|
queen is most underused, yet a deadly spellcaster. ppl just too lazy to get it, and its alot more control with queen, takes up more food
|
One thing that I have experimented with, is that Ghosts rape mutas. If you have ghosts with your MM force it really helps (vs muta/ling).
|
On June 02 2004 17:46 Klogon wrote: Show nested quote +On June 02 2004 15:05 Chobohobo wrote: I find it that its hard to get a good snare off. Also the area that snare covers is kinda small I think If you plan to snare a MM army then attack with lurkers it becomes very difficult and impractical because when the terran sees Snare on his shit he'll reposition his force to get ready for attack, or just retreat. And since its key for a zerg to flank and attack a terran when hes moving I dont see how snare would be effective in that situation. He still moves slower and doesn't shoot as fast. Basically it negates stim packs. So imo, it is well worth it.
I am pretty sure they only move slower and attack rate is unaffected.
|
I believe I read something a while ago about Queens Ensnare + attack rate. Something about a group of xxxx units vs a group of yyyy units that they tested Z amount of times with and without ensnare. It showed that ensnare enemies will kill a group like 2% slower than normal. :\
|
use them zvp , broodling the templars , ensnare his melee units and use speed hydra from there
|
Actually I think it can be up to 25% slower attack, but it differs from unit to unit.
|
On June 02 2004 18:51 Louis Philippe wrote:
I self-proclaim myself the GREATEST Terran vs Zerg player outside of korea. (im not even joking) So, if you wanna try those zerg strats, feel free to msg me for a game. I play mostly on Europe.
lmfao asshole :D
|
I think it would be good from Blizzard to decrease the mana cost for broodling and ensnare skills for queens, to make those types of strats work. In some korean gosu tvz games i see, zerg player doesn't have enough time to use queen spells because of high mana cost, vessels+m&ms+5 or 6 tanks with defensive matrix rape hard hydra+lurkers+queens without mana+scourges .
edit: added,
queens might be real good chance for zerg in close locations game vs terran (example LT 12Zerg-vs-3Terran -_-)
sorry for my bad english
|
broodlings to 125 energy or more queen starting energy would be nice =]
|
I think this thread is dying so if someone has the energy to move it to Strategy forum, it might rest in peace in there =]
|
On June 03 2004 02:40 Muhweli wrote:
broodlings to 125 energy or more queen starting energy would be nice =]
yes, i agree =)
|
Netherlands13554 Posts
On June 02 2004 18:51 Louis Philippe wrote:
I self-proclaim myself the GREATEST Terran vs Zerg player outside of korea. (im not even joking) So, if you wanna try those zerg strats, feel free to msg me for a game. I play mostly on Europe.
You are sweet <3
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
stop being jealous, Baal and Twisted
|
now i tried queen zvt. i lost some games when terran made a drop ship and dropped the containing mm into my main. Then i tried ensnare with mutaling and lost the games also. In 2 games when terran went 3rax (6vs3 @ LT) and i managed to scout it by sacrifacing lord. I teched ensnare as fast as i could. With 3hat Ensnare came 30sec too late to ensnare the mm at my sunks but i handled the situation with my drones while pumping 3hat lings. I had already built 3 queens so they had plenty of energy. i just kept pumping lings and rallypointed them to terrans base. I won the games with ensnare+lings and in other game i managed to infest his CC!!! :D:D:D The game was already over but it looked soo good. Especially coz observers were yelling =)
With good timing the queen can be a very good unit. I think it's a perfect counter vs 3rax terran =) Someone with more gaming experience than me could easily pull out a good queen strategy.
|
nice man, very ggood points 10/10:D
|
oh i thought that was bigballs at first up 2
|
wow u spend all ur time writing that niceeeeeee niceee article..good job...and i mostly agree with u
|
I am pretty sure they only move slower and attack rate is unaffected.
Ensare slows attack rate on almost all units. You can test it by having 2 units attack two different buildings, then ensnaring one. The ensnared one will have done less damage to the building by the end of your test. It is very is to see the damage difference with units that do lots of damage, such as archons. You can pretty easily tell ensnare changes attack rate though just by listening to units attack. Have two units attacking side by side. Get used to the attack pattern. Ensnare one, and you will easily notice the change in attack pattern, with one attacking slightly slower.
On most units the change in attack rate from ensnare is pretty low though, but certainly enough of a change to make a difference in close fights with large amounts of units. The thing about ensnare that makes it especially good ZvT, is it slows the rate of attack of a stimmed marine or firebat much more than it slows the rate of attacks of other units. I haven't tested if it completely cancels stims increase attack rate or not, but it is close if it doesnt. So, ensnare can make M&M much easier to deal with as zerg, as it makes many more units viable against M&M.
|
On June 06 2004 23:49 Cheez wrote:
wow u spend all ur time writing that niceeeeeee niceee article..good job...and i mostly agree with u
thx i guess, but i actually didn't spend more than an hour writing that plus i did it from work so didn't have anything better to do ;D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
