TL Subs is so proud to present After Talk's Betting Scandal Aftermath ft. SangHo!
Recently, the Korean progaming scene was devastatingly hit by the now well documented betting scandal. The betting scandal involved 11 progamers from various progaming teams, including some of the most notable players in Brood War history. The news of rigged games rocked Korean media, and suspicions flared left and right, as each game became scrutinized by the media. No longer could anyone believe anything.
In a previous episode of After Talk, the OGN commentators Uhm Jaekyung, Kim Carrier, and Kingdom sat down and discussed their views on the entire scandal. At that time, not all the details had been released, and the investigation had not entirely finished. Now, the After Talk crew assembles once more to share their opinions on the state of Progaming and the future of eSPORTS while hearing from one of the victims of the scandal, Sangho.
In a recent interview with Sangho, he reveals to the public the scrutiny he faced during the match fixing investigation, and the immense pressure he dealt with at the time. Here on After Talk, SangHo fully expresses what he underwent, and how he felt as a victim of the scandal. In this two part series, you'll hear from the commentators, a reporter, and of course SangHo about the entire betting scandal.
For further information on the scandal, please consult this thread.
Big thanks to Milkis for translating the first part. The second part of the series is currently in the works, so I hope you guys enjoy this for now.
Other Stuff: These subtitles are brought to you by the Teamliquid Fansub Team. Please do not redistribute, copy, or claim these subs without the permission of the Fansub team.
We're currently working on the second part of this series. While you're waiting, feel free to check out our other works, such as NalrA's Oldboy and Hyungjoon Becomes a Progamer!
PS: I'd like a more appropriate banner if possible. If anyone is kind enough to help whip up a banner, please PM me. Thanks!
on a side note, I'm curious to wonder how SangHo could stand meeting with UpMagic in the most recent of Artosis interview, even saying they were "best friends". must hurt to have your best friend involved in something like this that devastated his BW career =/
Thanks TL Sub team! It is really amazing and gives our hobby so much more depth to know what their perspective is and how Koreans talk about StarCraft.
Are there any plans to do subtitles on a few select games? The shows are great, but I miss match translations.
Wait, which player was it that did it on the Estro team? They talked about it vaguely, but I can't seem to recall who did it... (even after looking at the list =/)
On July 22 2010 15:41 GenesisX wrote: Wait, which player was it that did it on the Estro team? They talked about it vaguely, but I can't seem to recall who did it... (even after looking at the list =/)
UpMagic. There's a portion on him in the second episode.
Thanks a lot for this guys. Keep up the great work.
Could any of you gooks pm me a place to watch after talk regularly? Torrent would be great ;P The show is awesome. Also a raw of part 2 of this would be cool. Thanks!
Man, although it's cool that sangho came in to talk.. I think it'd be 10x more interesting if someone who's actually guilty came in. It would probably turn into the jerry springer show haha.
I thought their views on how players are treated and how it affects their actions were very naive, as well as their thought that this will never happen again. They want StarCraft to be treated like a sport, then they need to start treating their players like athletes, not dogs.
I feel really sorry for SangHo, being accused for throwing games must be tough...
Sangho still didn't explain why he played like he did in that certain game, he just kept repeating that he didn't do it and nobody would throw away a game in that kind of a fashion..
On July 22 2010 21:47 Senx wrote: Sangho still didn't explain why he played like he did in that certain game, he just kept repeating that he didn't do it and nobody would throw away a game in that kind of a fashion..
The part around 4:50 really didn't sit well with me.
So it's not the problem that the players are being treated poorly, and that nothing is being done about that, but the fact that they don't have the right to be unhappy about being treated like that because they knew what they were getting into.
I thought their views on how players are treated and how it affects their actions were very naive, as well as their thought that this will never happen again. They want StarCraft to be treated like a sport, then they need to start treating their players like athletes, not dogs.
They are being treated like Atheletes lol. I don't know what you're implying otherwise.
In general though, Koreans have the attitude that "If I suffered through this, you should too", in terms of military service and other things. In terms of Progaming, conditions improved tremendously since the days of Boxer, then since the days of Kingdom, etc etc. It's been continually improving.
On July 22 2010 22:34 Odoakar wrote: The part around 4:50 really didn't sit well with me.
So it's not the problem that the players are being treated poorly, and that nothing is being done about that, but the fact that they don't have the right to be unhappy about being treated like that because they knew what they were getting into.
What?
They pretty much justify why those conditions are needed in there later on in the show. If you don't practice 10+ hours a day, you have zero chance. You go in there knowing about these things.
In terms of conditions other than that, it's on probably on the level of top tier korean girl/boy bands in terms of treatment. What else is there to be done? Have them practice less and be less competitive as a team?
It isn't the amount of practise, it is the fact that the vast majority of them are not well paid. Correct me if I am wrong, but the b teamers do not get paid at all? This is the treatment that needs to be addressed. They didn't resort to illegal gambling because of the amount they practise. They needed money.
They either completely missed the point, or do so intentionally. I am glad it has gotten better from before, but that does not mean that it is acceptable now. If they want to ensure that this does not repeat, then they need to look hard at the salary structure they have right now.
There are reasons why all professional sports have a league minimum. The korean pro teams need to do the research on this and not burry their heads in the sand.
On July 22 2010 23:16 Varbind wrote: It isn't the amount of practise, it is the fact that the vast majority of them are not well paid. Correct me if I am wrong, but the b teamers do not get paid at all? This is the treatment that needs to be addressed. They didn't resort to illegal gambling because of the amount they practise. They needed money.
They either completely missed the point, or do so intentionally. I am glad it has gotten better from before, but that does not mean that it is acceptable now. If they want to ensure that this does not repeat, then they need to look hard at the salary structure they have right now.
There are reasons why all professional sports have a league minimum. The korean pro teams need to do the research on this and not burry their heads in the sand.
Except anyone who participated in match fixing weren't B teamers, and a lot of them were well paid people.
Match Fixing was not caused by poor conditions. It's closer to progamers not being educated enough.
B teamers, if they don't get paid, don't get paid because they produce little value. B teamers are here to make it to the big stages and then get paid there, not because they want to remain B teamers for life. They're here to gamble. It's their choice.
Finally B Teamers likely don't get paid because they dont produce any advertising revenue. In the end, proteams aren't the one with the money, but the sponsors. What the sponsors say, goes. Nothing "proteams" can do about it.
I believe (this is just my opinion) that it is the conditions. Is it fair to say that many of the players involved where near the end of their careers, and had not had significant success, and therefore money?
Now I know you are more in touch with the scene then I am, and I respect your opinion so please let me know what you think. When you think of the guys below:
On July 22 2010 23:31 r33k wrote: Thanks a lot for the translation, how recent is this by the way? Was this recorded before or after the Artosis interviews?
This was filmed about a month ago if I'm correct. It's been out for a bit, and was taken probably well before Artosis' interview with Sangho.
On July 22 2010 23:31 r33k wrote: Thanks a lot for the translation, how recent is this by the way? Was this recorded before or after the Artosis interviews?
This was filmed about a month ago if I'm correct. It's been out for a bit, and was taken probably well before Artosis' interview with Sangho.
Ok thanks, I was wondering why Sangho didn't really mention oGs and living with Upmagic, but the insight from the journalist filled a lot of gaps in the general press information.
On July 22 2010 23:36 Varbind wrote: I believe (this is just my opinion) that it is the conditions. Is it fair to say that many of the players involved where near the end of their careers, and had not had significant success, and therefore money?
Now I know you are more in touch with the scene then I am, and I respect your opinion so please let me know what you think. When you think of the guys below:
I think that is the problem, you have a thin crust at the top that makes significant money (Jaedong/Flash) and then the rest scrabble for what they can. A league minimum for players on the A team would go a long way to making sure this never happens again.
B team, well hell, I agree with your points you made. It is a gamble for them, fair enough.
On July 22 2010 23:36 Varbind wrote: I believe (this is just my opinion) that it is the conditions. Is it fair to say that many of the players involved where near the end of their careers, and had not had significant success, and therefore money?
Now I know you are more in touch with the scene then I am, and I respect your opinion so please let me know what you think. When you think of the guys below:
How much money did they make? I would think conditions do apply to them.
These next two did better I think, but still not great? go.go, Luxury
Which leaves of course Savior. For him I believe it was about greed.
Lol hwasin was one of the top paid gamers with a salary of around 100k USD. Darkelf was on the air force team so of course he wouldn't get paid. Yarnc and upmagic had decent pay as well since they were on the main lineups for their teams and regularly qualified for leagues. I think shinhwa had already retired. Basically based on the players that were involved, half had nice salaries and the other half didn't. It doesn't support an argument based on salary.
Furthermore although it would be ideal for all teams to have minimum salaries etc it just isn't feasible. Each of these teams are simply marketing tools for the huge companies they represent. If you never make a televised appearance due to your lack of skill why should they pay you more on top of housing and food? Also another thing to keep in mind is the poor economy lately
I respect SangHo so much, he so honest and wise about this. I also respect Up a little more now, and it must be really tough for Sangho given his relationship with up.
I'l be cheering for you hardcore when you play SC2 Sangho.
Thank you TL sub team, you guys are great, I eagerly await part 2.
On July 23 2010 00:13 LosingID8 wrote: Yarnc and upmagic had decent pay as well since they were on the main lineups for their teams and regularly qualified for leagues.
You are just assuming that they have good salaries so my point is incorrect? Interesting counter point. It is true that in order to know who is right or wrong here would require significant investigation into the actual amounts of money these guys received and compare it to the average salary in Korea.
I do not have the time to do that, so I asked Milkis if he did. I would still love it if someone took the time to actually figure out what these guys get and posted it. It is really the only way we will be able to judge this situation properly.
On July 23 2010 00:13 LosingID8 wrote: Yarnc and upmagic had decent pay as well since they were on the main lineups for their teams and regularly qualified for leagues.
You are just assuming that they have good salaries so my point is incorrect? Interesting counter point. It is true that in order to know who is right or wrong here would require significant investigation into the actual amounts of money these guys received and compare it to the average salary in Korea.
I do not have the time to do that, so I asked Milkis if he did. I would still love it if someone took the time to actually figure out what these guys get and posted it. It is really the only way we will be able to judge this situation properly.
Salaries aren't exactly public knowledge. It's not available in most cases.
Secondly, LID8's assumptions are pretty correct. Most A teamers who do well are paid very well, so it wouldn't exactly help your point.
I'm sure "greed" is a factor into it. You're waving money to kids, after all, who don't know much about money. And I'm sure, to an extent, salary is an issue (ie if i made 300K a year i wouldn't risk being caught in some scandal), but to say "their living conditions was the main issue" is rather misleading and stupid. Then again, I'm not surprised since nearly everyone ate up that bullshit yellow journalism posted about progamer conditions -_-
On July 23 2010 00:13 LosingID8 wrote: Yarnc and upmagic had decent pay as well since they were on the main lineups for their teams and regularly qualified for leagues.
You are just assuming that they have good salaries so my point is incorrect? Interesting counter point. It is true that in order to know who is right or wrong here would require significant investigation into the actual amounts of money these guys received and compare it to the average salary in Korea.
I do not have the time to do that, so I asked Milkis if he did. I would still love it if someone took the time to actually figure out what these guys get and posted it. It is really the only way we will be able to judge this situation properly.
What does it matter? they got a salary. They made a mistake, they paid for it. They're making the best of it now and moving on. I don't see how saying "well, they got 20% less than other workers their age..." would make any difference. Look at Savior. The guy was was one of the best payed progamers, and he was the greediest of them all. Their paychecks are meaningless. They didn't do this because they "needed money" (as you claimed in your other post). It was just a matter of seeing an opprotunity (that to them looked like a low risk one) and taking it.
Thanks for the translation... it was really enlightening yet sad to watch this. I really feel for Sangho and hope things won't happen to future progamers.
But as I watch this, I realized just how I understand the Korean nicely and I could also have translated English. But the translation was good so I'm not needed but I feel like maybe I should commit myself to join or do future projects alone like this even though I have no clue how to code them and all. Still, good job!
Thanks a lot for translating this, but it's kind of annoying to listen to what seem like extremely underdeveloped opinions. I'm sure it's both part of Korean culture and my expectations based on Western muckraking journalism, but the entire thing seems like another sales pitch for KeSPA and OGN/MBC. It's a very transparent way of making a "bad apples" argument.
Look, it's the betting sites' fault! The players aren't totally accountable! It's only these 11 players! The coaches couldn't have known! All pro gamers are treated fine! This can never happen again!
I know burying your head in the sand is embedded in the Korean business world, it's just kind of rough watching it here as well.
Thanks a lot for translating this, but it's kind of annoying to listen to what seem like extremely underdeveloped opinions.
There are certain things in the past where they've had underdeveloped opinions (Uhm talking about Blizzard KeSPA? -_____-) but this honestly isn't one of them. You have to catch on to the subtleties i guess.
Look, it's the betting sites' fault! The players aren't totally accountable!
They said the cause of this was the betting sites, but Kim Carrier definitely says that the players are accountable for their sins because what they did was definitely wrong. They never said anything to that degree.
It's only these 11 players! The coaches couldn't have known!
What are they going to say, "There's more" when they have zero evidence? Or "there may be more" which will stir up the community a lot more than it has already, based on no evidence?
They're optimistic about it, and remember, they're going to believe everyone unless there is concrete evidence. There's no need for them to start a witchhunt by saying anythign more. All it's going to do is create more Sanghos -_-
All pro gamers are treated fine!
They have never said this. In fact, they state the exact opposite saying that pro gamers go into the field knowing that they'll be treated badly.
The reason they brought this up was because they were arguing that it's rather limited to say that "it was the harsh conditions that made them fix matches", but that it's a more complicated argument than that. They talk about this exact thing for a few moments.
This can never happen again!
Well, yeah. They're not saying it's actually impossible for it to happen again, they're saying that it should never happen again, and now that they know it can happen they can try and put a stop to it.
I honestly don't understand what your issues are. I don't see a salespitch at all -- they're being optimistic about things.
Thanks for translating. I'm disappointed that they brushed off the living conditions for players but some other comments in the thread point out the culture in korea explains their behavior. I feel bad for sangho that the scandal very much affected his career and reputation just because he made a really big mistake.
It really makes one feel guilty to even have read SangHo's name on the list of investigated people. Poor guy, he has been hit especially hard considering he (iirc) told Artosis in that recent interview that Upmagic was a close friend of his. All the suspicion does really put the relationships to test. I am glad that this scandal is not as big as I initially thought. I will miss Upmagic and Hwasin though =(
On July 23 2010 08:22 SkyLegenD wrote: What are the possibilities of the TL Sub team to release "After Talk" on a weekly or biweekly basis? This stuff is gold.
That's cause we only release good episodes.
In most cases it's not worth translating, and I have summary posts for that usually :3
On July 22 2010 15:41 GenesisX wrote: Wait, which player was it that did it on the Estro team? They talked about it vaguely, but I can't seem to recall who did it... (even after looking at the list =/)
UpMagic. There's a portion on him in the second episode.
Oh lol. For some reason I thought he was on hite. xD
I can't help to feel like these people are just stating the obvious. The only one who I find enlightening and interesting among these people is Kingdom but he rarely says anything. To me it looks like he's watching the others going "You're stating the obvious again.... Nothing new added here..." in his head.
It just feels like their conversations are on an extremely basic level considering their positions in korean E-Sports. I mean the average TL netizen could make this conversation more interesting or meaningful.
I am looking for more videos on a) the match fixing scandal b) the closing down of the MBC, Hwaseung and WeMadeFox teams
it would be great if they are subtitled, but anything in Korean is also good.
The AfterTalk episodes are great, so any pointers to those on these topics would be much appreciated. Korean News Footage or perhaps MBC Behind episodes also welcome!
It's hard to backtrack now, but at the time we had several discussions about it and a lot of the fomos and other e-sports websites published articles on it here as well, which were translated too. There was plenty written about MBC and their executives shifting focus as well. Lots of good tibits on this website if you use the search engine. Oz and Wemade might be a little trickier but we did have threads for those as well. :/
Starstruck, thanks for the reply. i'll do another search and see what comes up. thing is, I have found a lot of articles and discussions about this, but no video or audio material; and that's what I'm looking for (it's for use in a documentary). the quest continues
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Kennigit/matchfixbanner.png)
But now I can't wait for part 2.![[image loading]](http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2771/0a901d557bb7421ba9c4f3f.png)
