• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:55
CEST 07:55
KST 14:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research8Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool51Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win4
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Aligulac acquired by REPLAYMAN.com/Stego Research Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group E [ASL21] Ro24 Group F Azhi's Colosseum - Foreign KCM
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Chess Thread NASA and the Private Sector Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
China Uses Video Games to Sh…
TrAiDoS
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Electronics
mantequilla
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 13373 users

Flash 14cc Stats

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 08:43:44
June 20 2010 08:35 GMT
#1
[image loading]

It felt weird without a banner so I googled a pic of Flash. Look at him! So triumphant!


Stat pieces always begin with a question. When you're me its often triggered by beer, but usually they begin with a question. This time the question came to me while watching OSL finals. In the fifth game Flash opened with a fast command center, and as he was getting overrun with lings I thought this is silly, doesn't Flash always lose when he does this?

I specifically remember a time when there were a lot of posts to the effect of "Flash does silly nonstandard things too often in TvZ". Apparently that same sentiment was common in the KT house, because last fall he began to open 1 rax cc every game and it was the beginning of his prolonged streak of complete TvZ dominance.

Regardless, the game finished and I forgot about it, choosing to spend time searching the forums for angry fans instead of pondering life's great mysteries (why do hot dog buns come in packs of 8 while the hot dogs come in packs of 10?). The next day it hovered in the back of my mind while I underwent a multi-hour battle with Golden Tee. I toyed with the idea of hand collecting the stats of how often he won one of his TvZ games with a double cc opening, and like any good statistician, decided it was too much work.

Then that crazy little monster did it again, only a few days later. This time was different, as not only did he use it three times in a row, but he crushed his opponent every time. As if that wasn't enough, "his opponent" wasn't just some guy, but Jaedong. He crushed Jaedong on his way to fame, fortune, glory, a cool trophy, and the envy of a million 14 year old girls. How does it make you feel to know Justin Beiber shares a fanbase as the orchestrator of a zerg genocide?

Anyway, bricks were ready, mortor being laid. Destiny. My hand was forced. Five paragraphs later here I am, saying "I made a chart and here are some numbers". Its okay because the actual chart takes about 3 seconds to digest all the possible info you look for in a thread like this.

The first step was looking at Flash's games. He has 173 TvZs in our database, but 14 of those are unusable (mostly prelims, one or two games I couldn't dig up online) so effectively 159 total. I then watched all of them long enough see what his first non-depot building was, and made a note for the games that opened with a 14CC. Here are the charts. They are pie charts, and are damn fine.

[image loading]

See that 3d effect? This is next gen tech.


This is the overall breakdown of how many times he used an early CC over other builds (22 instances found!). It would be pretty cool to actually break this down further into what percentage of play his 1 rax CC is vs 2 rax vs forward bunker type things, but I didn't think of it at the time. For those wondering, if you take out the MSL series vs Jaedong it drops to 12% which still seems like a signifigant chunk.

[image loading]

Rumble, we hardly knew ye.


This is the breakdown of what players he did it against. Unsurprisingly he does it more against people he has played a lot, generally during a longer series. Interestingly, he is 0-3 against GGPlay using fast cc (all during the same Bo5). He is 6-3 against Jaedong, 2-1 against Savior, and 2-0 against Kwanro. Of the people he has tried it against once, he has beaten them all except EffOrt.

[image loading]

No pie, just data.


Another note to consider are the maps, if you look at the list of games (below) you see its far more common on 4 player maps, and as well his record is far better on bigger maps. Not surprising, but its nice to have actual data that backs the things people seem to "just know". This the most fascinating cross section of the data to me, and in retrospect I wish I had gotten the numbers for how often it happens using the maps as a constant instead of a player. It seems likely that they are the single biggest factor.

[image loading]

This is also a chart of things that look like pacman


At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener. Even if you choose to not include the series vs Jaedong, 11-8 is still pretty respectable with a build that carries more than just some risk.

In summary, Flash most certainly does not 'always lose when he does this'. My original question answered, now is the time to move on to more important things (why doesn't Donald Duck wear pants?).

Its awesome that the first super hyped TvZ finals ended in just a few minutes with 3 straight bunker rushes, and what will be remembered as one of the last super hyped starleague finishes ended with 3 fast command centers. That statement alone sums up a nearly a decade of serious Brood War strategy development.

+ Show Spoiler [Credits] +

From most recent to oldest. Vod links to the ones we have in TLPD.

Jaedong on Match Point (W)
Jaedong on Odd-Eye 2 (W)
Jaedong on Triathlon (W)
EffOrt on Match Point (L)
SoulKey on Grand Line (W)
Kwanro on Odd-Eye (W)
HoGiL on Fighting Spirit (W)
sAviOr on Tornado (W)
Kwanro and Carthage 3 (W)
Jaedong on Neo Harmony (W)
Jaedong on Harmony (L)
Jaedong on Katrina SE (W)
Jaedong on Blue Storm (L)
Yarnc on Colosseum (W)
sAviOr on Un'Goro Crater (W)
sAviOr on Rush Hour 3 (L)
Jaedong on Katrina (W)
Jaedong on Loki 2 (L)
Rumble on Katrina (W)
GGPlay on Fantasy (L)
GGPlay on Monty Hall (L)
GGPlay on Fantasy (L)
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
June 20 2010 08:38 GMT
#2
At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener.


That's ~64% which is worse than his average (including 14CC), so it's a slightly worse history overall.

It's still a good winrate though, much better than any non-S-class player can hope to achieve in a lifetime on the scene.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
June 20 2010 08:54 GMT
#3
You watched like a minute of 173 TvZs haha...props to you, did you do it all in one go or did you have to do it in chunks?

I'd imagine I'd've died of boredom doing that
TranslatorBaa!
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
June 20 2010 09:03 GMT
#4
On June 20 2010 17:38 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener.


That's ~64% which is worse than his average (including 14CC), so it's a slightly worse history overall.

It's still a good winrate though, much better than any non-S-class player can hope to achieve in a lifetime on the scene.


yeah, but you never know what the results would be without the 14cc, maybe he is picking the best opening in an otherwise tough situation.


In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Smix *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States4549 Posts
June 20 2010 09:08 GMT
#5
This was a really interesting read. Thanks heyoka
TranslatorBe an Optimist Prime, Not a Negatron // twitter @smixity
pvzvt
Profile Joined October 2009
Israel2097 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#6
now its time to check jaedong's 5 pool
i say we dust off and nuke it from orbit
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#7
Very interesting. I remember you talking about this on the goat show, lol.
GANDHISAUCE
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#8
I think this goes back to what Idra said about the "calculated risks," it's also why I think Flash is so good now. He took a risky build, and went to see what kind of high pressure situations (PL, or singles tourneys) he could use it in and play well with.
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 09:16:14
June 20 2010 09:15 GMT
#9
15 of the 22 games were against zergs who Flash would have a decent chance to lose against in the late game and could use an eco advantage over (Jaedong, Savior, GGPlay), so it's really not a huge surprise. GGPlay was scary in Daum, it's not surprising Flash felt the need to 14cc.

The games vs Kwanro were of course just trying to get him to ling all-in once he saw it off a 12hatch. ^^
Oh, my eSports
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
June 20 2010 12:41 GMT
#10
so effectively 159 total. I then watched all of them long enough see what his first non-depot building was


That's dedication and a lot of free time. O.o

Nice read. What I would really like to know is if Flash ever decides to 14cc on the spot due to impulse.

Anybody know Flash's "general" record with 14cc in other matchups? I wasn't there during Flash's tragic period of 14cc love affair.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
June 20 2010 12:59 GMT
#11
this should be front page^_^
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6183 Posts
June 20 2010 13:12 GMT
#12
So the last ten games with 14cc is 9-1
It's a good build when used right
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
June 20 2010 13:23 GMT
#13
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z
Writer
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8092 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 13:44:20
June 20 2010 13:44 GMT
#14
Awesome article and an awesome read, thanks
And i love the picture of flash when he owned stork :D
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
Azrael1111
Profile Joined July 2008
United States550 Posts
June 20 2010 13:46 GMT
#15
On June 20 2010 22:23 swanized wrote:
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z


The problem with 3 hatch before pool is if they scout you in a timely fashion they just get nexus first so it is about even either way.
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10829 Posts
June 20 2010 13:47 GMT
#16
lol nice writeup

i'm a fan of pie charts too!
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
June 20 2010 17:19 GMT
#17
Yeah! Take that moletrap! (Usually critiques Flash's 14 CC)
▲ ▲ ▲
O-ops
Profile Joined February 2009
United States4236 Posts
June 20 2010 18:09 GMT
#18
On June 20 2010 22:23 swanized wrote:
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z


LOL?
Fan of the Jangbanger
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
June 20 2010 18:13 GMT
#19
that was a great write-up.

thanks heyoka!
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
June 20 2010 18:27 GMT
#20
Pie Charts look like Pacman. =D

Great write up. Always can count on heyoka to deliver them stats.
God Bless
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft533
NeuroSwarm 230
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5133
BeSt 1221
PianO 674
Pusan 156
ggaemo 131
scan(afreeca) 94
Nal_rA 83
Bale 17
Icarus 9
Noble 8
League of Legends
JimRising 844
Counter-Strike
m0e_tv633
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor126
Other Games
summit1g15027
C9.Mang0219
RuFF_SC294
Nina40
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV187
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Light_VIP 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1100
• Rush984
• Stunt360
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
4h 5m
Wardi Open
4h 5m
Replay Cast
18h 5m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 4h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
BSL
5 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.