• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:48
CET 15:48
KST 23:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners10Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!44$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (Oct 26-Nov 2): Liquid, Clem, Solar win; LAN in Philly2Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win10
StarCraft 2
General
Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon! RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Where's CardinalAllin/Jukado the mapmaker? [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Learning my new SC2 hotkey…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1309 users

Flash 14cc Stats

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 08:43:44
June 20 2010 08:35 GMT
#1
[image loading]

It felt weird without a banner so I googled a pic of Flash. Look at him! So triumphant!


Stat pieces always begin with a question. When you're me its often triggered by beer, but usually they begin with a question. This time the question came to me while watching OSL finals. In the fifth game Flash opened with a fast command center, and as he was getting overrun with lings I thought this is silly, doesn't Flash always lose when he does this?

I specifically remember a time when there were a lot of posts to the effect of "Flash does silly nonstandard things too often in TvZ". Apparently that same sentiment was common in the KT house, because last fall he began to open 1 rax cc every game and it was the beginning of his prolonged streak of complete TvZ dominance.

Regardless, the game finished and I forgot about it, choosing to spend time searching the forums for angry fans instead of pondering life's great mysteries (why do hot dog buns come in packs of 8 while the hot dogs come in packs of 10?). The next day it hovered in the back of my mind while I underwent a multi-hour battle with Golden Tee. I toyed with the idea of hand collecting the stats of how often he won one of his TvZ games with a double cc opening, and like any good statistician, decided it was too much work.

Then that crazy little monster did it again, only a few days later. This time was different, as not only did he use it three times in a row, but he crushed his opponent every time. As if that wasn't enough, "his opponent" wasn't just some guy, but Jaedong. He crushed Jaedong on his way to fame, fortune, glory, a cool trophy, and the envy of a million 14 year old girls. How does it make you feel to know Justin Beiber shares a fanbase as the orchestrator of a zerg genocide?

Anyway, bricks were ready, mortor being laid. Destiny. My hand was forced. Five paragraphs later here I am, saying "I made a chart and here are some numbers". Its okay because the actual chart takes about 3 seconds to digest all the possible info you look for in a thread like this.

The first step was looking at Flash's games. He has 173 TvZs in our database, but 14 of those are unusable (mostly prelims, one or two games I couldn't dig up online) so effectively 159 total. I then watched all of them long enough see what his first non-depot building was, and made a note for the games that opened with a 14CC. Here are the charts. They are pie charts, and are damn fine.

[image loading]

See that 3d effect? This is next gen tech.


This is the overall breakdown of how many times he used an early CC over other builds (22 instances found!). It would be pretty cool to actually break this down further into what percentage of play his 1 rax CC is vs 2 rax vs forward bunker type things, but I didn't think of it at the time. For those wondering, if you take out the MSL series vs Jaedong it drops to 12% which still seems like a signifigant chunk.

[image loading]

Rumble, we hardly knew ye.


This is the breakdown of what players he did it against. Unsurprisingly he does it more against people he has played a lot, generally during a longer series. Interestingly, he is 0-3 against GGPlay using fast cc (all during the same Bo5). He is 6-3 against Jaedong, 2-1 against Savior, and 2-0 against Kwanro. Of the people he has tried it against once, he has beaten them all except EffOrt.

[image loading]

No pie, just data.


Another note to consider are the maps, if you look at the list of games (below) you see its far more common on 4 player maps, and as well his record is far better on bigger maps. Not surprising, but its nice to have actual data that backs the things people seem to "just know". This the most fascinating cross section of the data to me, and in retrospect I wish I had gotten the numbers for how often it happens using the maps as a constant instead of a player. It seems likely that they are the single biggest factor.

[image loading]

This is also a chart of things that look like pacman


At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener. Even if you choose to not include the series vs Jaedong, 11-8 is still pretty respectable with a build that carries more than just some risk.

In summary, Flash most certainly does not 'always lose when he does this'. My original question answered, now is the time to move on to more important things (why doesn't Donald Duck wear pants?).

Its awesome that the first super hyped TvZ finals ended in just a few minutes with 3 straight bunker rushes, and what will be remembered as one of the last super hyped starleague finishes ended with 3 fast command centers. That statement alone sums up a nearly a decade of serious Brood War strategy development.

+ Show Spoiler [Credits] +

From most recent to oldest. Vod links to the ones we have in TLPD.

Jaedong on Match Point (W)
Jaedong on Odd-Eye 2 (W)
Jaedong on Triathlon (W)
EffOrt on Match Point (L)
SoulKey on Grand Line (W)
Kwanro on Odd-Eye (W)
HoGiL on Fighting Spirit (W)
sAviOr on Tornado (W)
Kwanro and Carthage 3 (W)
Jaedong on Neo Harmony (W)
Jaedong on Harmony (L)
Jaedong on Katrina SE (W)
Jaedong on Blue Storm (L)
Yarnc on Colosseum (W)
sAviOr on Un'Goro Crater (W)
sAviOr on Rush Hour 3 (L)
Jaedong on Katrina (W)
Jaedong on Loki 2 (L)
Rumble on Katrina (W)
GGPlay on Fantasy (L)
GGPlay on Monty Hall (L)
GGPlay on Fantasy (L)
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
June 20 2010 08:38 GMT
#2
At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener.


That's ~64% which is worse than his average (including 14CC), so it's a slightly worse history overall.

It's still a good winrate though, much better than any non-S-class player can hope to achieve in a lifetime on the scene.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
June 20 2010 08:54 GMT
#3
You watched like a minute of 173 TvZs haha...props to you, did you do it all in one go or did you have to do it in chunks?

I'd imagine I'd've died of boredom doing that
TranslatorBaa!
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
June 20 2010 09:03 GMT
#4
On June 20 2010 17:38 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
At 14 wins and 8 loses, he has a pretty solid history with the opener.


That's ~64% which is worse than his average (including 14CC), so it's a slightly worse history overall.

It's still a good winrate though, much better than any non-S-class player can hope to achieve in a lifetime on the scene.


yeah, but you never know what the results would be without the 14cc, maybe he is picking the best opening in an otherwise tough situation.


In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Smix *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States4549 Posts
June 20 2010 09:08 GMT
#5
This was a really interesting read. Thanks heyoka
TranslatorBe an Optimist Prime, Not a Negatron // twitter @smixity
pvzvt
Profile Joined October 2009
Israel2097 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#6
now its time to check jaedong's 5 pool
i say we dust off and nuke it from orbit
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#7
Very interesting. I remember you talking about this on the goat show, lol.
GANDHISAUCE
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
June 20 2010 09:14 GMT
#8
I think this goes back to what Idra said about the "calculated risks," it's also why I think Flash is so good now. He took a risky build, and went to see what kind of high pressure situations (PL, or singles tourneys) he could use it in and play well with.
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 09:16:14
June 20 2010 09:15 GMT
#9
15 of the 22 games were against zergs who Flash would have a decent chance to lose against in the late game and could use an eco advantage over (Jaedong, Savior, GGPlay), so it's really not a huge surprise. GGPlay was scary in Daum, it's not surprising Flash felt the need to 14cc.

The games vs Kwanro were of course just trying to get him to ling all-in once he saw it off a 12hatch. ^^
Oh, my eSports
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
June 20 2010 12:41 GMT
#10
so effectively 159 total. I then watched all of them long enough see what his first non-depot building was


That's dedication and a lot of free time. O.o

Nice read. What I would really like to know is if Flash ever decides to 14cc on the spot due to impulse.

Anybody know Flash's "general" record with 14cc in other matchups? I wasn't there during Flash's tragic period of 14cc love affair.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
June 20 2010 12:59 GMT
#11
this should be front page^_^
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6180 Posts
June 20 2010 13:12 GMT
#12
So the last ten games with 14cc is 9-1
It's a good build when used right
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
June 20 2010 13:23 GMT
#13
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z
Writer
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8091 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-20 13:44:20
June 20 2010 13:44 GMT
#14
Awesome article and an awesome read, thanks
And i love the picture of flash when he owned stork :D
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
Azrael1111
Profile Joined July 2008
United States550 Posts
June 20 2010 13:46 GMT
#15
On June 20 2010 22:23 swanized wrote:
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z


The problem with 3 hatch before pool is if they scout you in a timely fashion they just get nexus first so it is about even either way.
LosingID8
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
CA10828 Posts
June 20 2010 13:47 GMT
#16
lol nice writeup

i'm a fan of pie charts too!
ModeratorResident K-POP Elitist
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
June 20 2010 17:19 GMT
#17
Yeah! Take that moletrap! (Usually critiques Flash's 14 CC)
▲ ▲ ▲
O-ops
Profile Joined February 2009
United States4236 Posts
June 20 2010 18:09 GMT
#18
On June 20 2010 22:23 swanized wrote:
I actually LOVE 14CC and 3 hatch before pool and always defend players who do that


seriously... how often is your opponent not 12 hatching as T or not FE as Z


LOL?
Fan of the Jangbanger
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
June 20 2010 18:13 GMT
#19
that was a great write-up.

thanks heyoka!
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
June 20 2010 18:27 GMT
#20
Pie Charts look like Pacman. =D

Great write up. Always can count on heyoka to deliver them stats.
God Bless
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Korean Royale
12:00
Group Stage 1 - Group A
WardiTV1314
Rex139
IntoTheiNu 14
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 304
Rex 139
MindelVK 44
Railgan 3
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 10129
Sea 3452
GuemChi 678
Barracks 627
JulyZerg 459
Mini 448
Soma 351
PianO 220
Hyun 176
Last 145
[ Show more ]
hero 133
Larva 70
Backho 54
ToSsGirL 34
Terrorterran 20
Noble 13
HiyA 12
scan(afreeca) 11
ggaemo 10
zelot 8
Dota 2
qojqva2477
Dendi870
BananaSlamJamma48
Counter-Strike
byalli326
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor380
Other Games
singsing2537
B2W.Neo1194
Sick243
Hui .219
RotterdaM191
XcaliburYe105
Mlord93
goatrope61
QueenE46
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 9
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3341
• WagamamaTV515
• Ler87
Upcoming Events
LAN Event
12m
ByuN vs Zoun
TBD vs TriGGeR
Clem vs TBD
IPSL
3h 12m
JDConan vs WIZARD
WolFix vs Cross
BSL 21
5h 12m
spx vs rasowy
HBO vs KameZerg
Cross vs Razz
dxtr13 vs ZZZero
OSC
8h 12m
OSC
18h 12m
Wardi Open
21h 12m
Replay Cast
1d 8h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 21h
Replay Cast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
[ Show More ]
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
BSL 21
6 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.