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On May 21 2010 08:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08:00 KristianJS wrote:The point is just that even being consistently beaten by another player in a final no less doesn't necessarily outweigh every other factor  once again using the tennis analogy nadal is ahead of federer in H2H 14 - 7 yet Federer is the world ATP ranked number 1 its not all about losing the head to heads its also about how well you play the smaller guys
lol well if you want to look at it that way then Flash is already "world KeSPA ranked number 1" so what are you arguing about?
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On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08:00 KristianJS wrote:The point is just that even being consistently beaten by another player in a final no less doesn't necessarily outweigh every other factor once again using the tennis analogy nadal is ahead of federer in H2H 14 - 7 yet Federer is the world ATP ranked number 1 its not all about losing the head to heads its also about how well you play the smaller guys and in Flash's case he's in both the MSL AND OSL training for the number 1 and number 2 zergs in Jaedong and Effort respectively
in tennis's case there's different surface types -_- And Federer has more titles than Nadal total, as does Fla.... wait.
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On May 21 2010 08:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On May 21 2010 08:00 KristianJS wrote:The point is just that even being consistently beaten by another player in a final no less doesn't necessarily outweigh every other factor once again using the tennis analogy nadal is ahead of federer in H2H 14 - 7 yet Federer is the world ATP ranked number 1 its not all about losing the head to heads its also about how well you play the smaller guys and in Flash's case he's in both the MSL AND OSL training for the number 1 and number 2 zergs in Jaedong and Effort respectively in tennis's case there's different surface types -_- And Federer has more titles than Nadal total, as does Fla.... wait.
Why does everyone always miss the point of the Federer-Nadal analogy? The point being made with the analogy is just that it's not enough to say "Well in the last year player X beat player Y in two finals so he must be the better player". If you try to make some argument by narrowing down the picture that much you could end up making a case for just about anything.
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On May 21 2010 08:23 DatTheMighty wrote:
for the sake of professional starcraft gaming, flash can't win both leagues. i am on jaedong side for this, with flash winnign both leagues and beating jaedong, his rival in a best of 5 in an individual league final will increase his mental edge too much. jaedong must stop flash for his own career's sake and all other progamers. this is david vs goliath!
anyoen remember flash after his first osl victory? kid just doens't stop winning once he gets like super confident and cocky. i think it'll be like fuckign 10x what happened if he pulls a dual gold.
If JD wins and Flash loses both the finals we will have JD with 6 Starleague titles and Flash with 2. That would be a completely inaccurate proportion. Imagine if Flash won both these finals, the next OSL and then faces JD in the MSL final again. 5 titles vs 5, an epic match of who will first reach up to Nada's legendary level. :D Now that would be epic. I don't want JD to pull too far ahead in the race for the position as GOAT.
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On May 21 2010 04:05 tree.hugger wrote:The Department of Team Liquid Security has released it's monthly fanboy activity report. Player watch: Bisu Fans: In Hiding sAviOr Fans: Blue  Flash Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Jaedong Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Team WatchACE Fans: We're all ace fans!CJ Fans: ExcitableeSTRO fans: Disappointed.Hite SPARKYZ Fans: Missing, presumed extinct.Hwaseung OZ fans: See above: "Jaedong fans"KT Rolster fans: See above: "Flash fans"MBC Fans: WorryingSamsung KHAN Fans: Resigned.SKT T1 Fans: Blending in (Argument advisory lifted) STX Soul Fans: NormalWemade FOX Fans: Unsure.Woongjin Stars Fans: Realpenguin (and Grobyc!) are doing fine, thank you.
I thought excitement in CJ means (-_-)
gold post, though.
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On May 21 2010 08:21 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08:18 Deletrious wrote:On May 21 2010 08:12 KristianJS wrote:On May 21 2010 08:05 Trezeguet23 wrote:
How can Flash say he is the best player if he has lost a finals twice in a row to the same player? This is seriously a flawed argument which has been dealt with a lot already this topic, even this very page. It's not all about head to head record. And if you wanna start talking like that, why not argue like this: how can JD call himself as good a player as Flash if he crashed out of the OSL the last two seasons while Flash made it to the finals both times? Just please realize there's a bigger picture here than just looking at head to head records, even if it's in consecutive finals (see: Federer-Nadal). Ok... but to be fair this isn't just a head to head, this is the championship game that occurs at the end of the playoffs. I don't care if you had a better regular season record, if you don't win the championship you can't really call yourself the best. This is basically all about the hypothetical "Flash wins OSL but JD wins MSL scenario"
Cause it is a foregone conclusion.
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yes, flash vs jaedong im so happy.
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Man, I'm arguing so much about hypotheticals and the finals are still more than a week till. If Flash loses to JD I'm gonna forbid myself from coming here for like two weeks at least >_<
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On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:36 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08:30 Shikyo wrote:On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On May 21 2010 08:00 KristianJS wrote:The point is just that even being consistently beaten by another player in a final no less doesn't necessarily outweigh every other factor once again using the tennis analogy nadal is ahead of federer in H2H 14 - 7 yet Federer is the world ATP ranked number 1 its not all about losing the head to heads its also about how well you play the smaller guys and in Flash's case he's in both the MSL AND OSL training for the number 1 and number 2 zergs in Jaedong and Effort respectively in tennis's case there's different surface types -_- And Federer has more titles than Nadal total, as does Fla.... wait. Why does everyone always miss the point of the Federer-Nadal analogy? The point being made with the analogy is just that it's not enough to say "Well in the last year player X beat player Y in two finals so he must be the better player". If you try to make some argument by narrowing down the picture that much you could end up making a case for just about anything.
Uhh Tennis can't be compared simply because Nadal IS the better clay player O_O
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Lol, I love the flame warring that's going to consume these forums until... probably a month after the MSL finals (Especially with no SC2 to distract us!)
If Jaedong beats Flash, I'll say Jaedong is better than Flash. I'd say across the board, Flash is actually a more consistent player (except last week against CJ Entus, but it happens) while Jaedong is a very strong individual player.
Regardless, both of them are the best in the SC world, to the point of which it's hard for me to even say one can truly be "better" than the other. They both dominate their worlds completely.
But personally, 1v1 fight to the death is always the best way to determine who's better. It's what makes life interesting.
On a side note, actually relevant to the OP, I always like Jaedong's interview, because he's pretty respectful for a tyrant. Thanks for the TL!
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On May 21 2010 09:25 ghosthunter wrote:
Lol, I love the flame warring that's going to consume these forums until... probably a month after the MSL finals (Especially with no SC2 to distract us!)
If Jaedong beats Flash, I'll say Jaedong is better than Flash. I'd say across the board, Flash is actually a more consistent player (except last week against CJ Entus, but it happens) while Jaedong is a very strong individual player.
Regardless, both of them are the best in the SC world, to the point of which it's hard for me to even say one can truly be "better" than the other. They both dominate their worlds completely.
But personally, 1v1 fight to the death is always the best way to determine who's better. It's what makes life interesting.
On a side note, actually relevant to the OP, I always like Jaedong's interview, because he's pretty respectful for a tyrant. Thanks for the TL!
Hmm 1v1 fights to the death don't make my life more interesting :/
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On May 21 2010 09:13 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:36 KristianJS wrote:On May 21 2010 08:30 Shikyo wrote:On May 21 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 21 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On May 21 2010 08:00 KristianJS wrote:The point is just that even being consistently beaten by another player in a final no less doesn't necessarily outweigh every other factor once again using the tennis analogy nadal is ahead of federer in H2H 14 - 7 yet Federer is the world ATP ranked number 1 its not all about losing the head to heads its also about how well you play the smaller guys and in Flash's case he's in both the MSL AND OSL training for the number 1 and number 2 zergs in Jaedong and Effort respectively in tennis's case there's different surface types -_- And Federer has more titles than Nadal total, as does Fla.... wait. Why does everyone always miss the point of the Federer-Nadal analogy? The point being made with the analogy is just that it's not enough to say "Well in the last year player X beat player Y in two finals so he must be the better player". If you try to make some argument by narrowing down the picture that much you could end up making a case for just about anything. Uhh Tennis can't be compared simply because Nadal IS the better clay player O_O
Not to mention the shear number of tournaments, I feel like PL is different since players often only get put out on maps that they have had success on, if zerg stinks on a map, Jaedong will not be sent out to lose on it.
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On May 21 2010 04:05 tree.hugger wrote:The Department of Team Liquid Security has released it's monthly fanboy activity report. Player watch:Bisu Fans: In HidingsAviOr Fans: Blue Flash Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Jaedong Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Team WatchACE Fans: We're all ace fans!CJ Fans: ExcitableeSTRO fans: Disappointed.Hite SPARKYZ Fans: Missing, presumed extinct.Hwaseung OZ fans: See above: "Jaedong fans"KT Rolster fans: See above: "Flash fans"MBC Fans: WorryingSamsung KHAN Fans: Resigned.SKT T1 Fans: Blending in (Argument advisory lifted) STX Soul Fans: NormalWemade FOX Fans: Unsure.Woongjin Stars Fans: Realpenguin (and Grobyc!) are doing fine, thank you.
Hahahaha. Pure win.
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On May 21 2010 06:22 On_Slaught wrote:
I wonder how all the KT fans will defend flash if he loses both finals...
With blind aggression and anger. OLLLLLLEHHHHHH.
Anyways, congrats Jaedong. Found myself rooting for Calm in game 4 though.. which was surprising. I think I just wanted it to be a 5 game series.
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As a JD fan I of course want JD to win, but fuck! It's Flash vs. JD! It will be epic either way!
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is awesome32277 Posts
It's Zerg Time! Go Jaedong, Go EffOrt!
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
If Jaedong beats Flash, he's necessarily not better or worse than Flash. If Flash beats Jaedong, he's not necessarily better or worse than Jaedong. If the games are close, it'll be impossible to tell.
I mean, it's a little difficult to argue that Flash hasn't been playing "untouchable" for "longer". But it's also difficult to argue that Jaedong hasn't been playing "better" for "longer". So who cares?
But does it not satisfy anyone to support a good player, or even a great player? Must be constantly be trying to define out favorite player as the "best" player? Or perhaps the "bestest" player? I mean, why is this even necessary?
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On May 21 2010 04:05 tree.hugger wrote:The Department of Team Liquid Security has released it's monthly fanboy activity report. Player watch:Bisu Fans: In HidingsAviOr Fans: Blue Flash Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Jaedong Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Team WatchACE Fans: We're all ace fans!CJ Fans: ExcitableeSTRO fans: Disappointed.Hite SPARKYZ Fans: Missing, presumed extinct.Hwaseung OZ fans: See above: "Jaedong fans"KT Rolster fans: See above: "Flash fans"MBC Fans: WorryingSamsung KHAN Fans: Resigned.SKT T1 Fans: Blending in (Argument advisory lifted) STX Soul Fans: NormalWemade FOX Fans: Unsure.Woongjin Stars Fans: Realpenguin (and Grobyc!) are doing fine, thank you.
Sweet! I'm normal, in hiding, blue, rampaging and rampaging.
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Fuck yah 5 pool.
1998 strat still works wonders against modern macro builds ^_^
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On May 20 2010 21:17 roMAD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 21:16 KristianJS wrote:On May 20 2010 21:15 roMAD wrote:On May 20 2010 21:12 Samurai- wrote:On May 20 2010 21:08 roMAD wrote:On May 20 2010 21:07 KristianJS wrote:
Awesome, thanks for the translation!
I'm not too sure about this statement though: "The upcoming finals match will discern who this season’s true best player is."
If Flash wins OSL then he's this seasons best player irrespective of what happens in the MSL, but anyway. I'm hyped as hell for this final!! I disagree. If Jaedong wins in the finals against FlaSh AGAIN, he will be the better player in my eyes. LoL, no. If flash wins OSL he is the man, whatever the MSL result is. And why is that? Getting 2 consecutive OSL's > 2 consecutive MSL's, where he loses to the same person in the finals twice? Amazing logic of FlaSh fans Ummm, 2 Golds + 2 Silvers is a lot better than 2 Golds. And Flash's proleague results this season are much better than JD's as well. Honestly I think you'd have a hard time justifying your statement.. You are missing the point that FlaSh actually loses to Jaedong twice in the finals. How that doesn't prove that Jaedong is a better player?
No.
If you want to say that JD beat Flash and thus he's a better player, you have to look at the OSL. Flash beat JD in the OSL once, and JD lost to Baby who eventually lost, ultimately to Flash. In the end, JD never had the ability to make the last two OSL finals, while Flash did.
I'm not saying that Flash is a better player than JD. However, you can't use that logic and say that JD is a better player.
Who is the better player will be determined at the next finals... because this hopefully will be a fair and straightforward match that won't have any family drama/heater drama. Then we can see Flash at his peak vs JD at his peak... and this should be the ultimate test.
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EPT
