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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 21 2010 10:53 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 21:17 roMAD wrote:On May 20 2010 21:16 KristianJS wrote:On May 20 2010 21:15 roMAD wrote:On May 20 2010 21:12 Samurai- wrote:On May 20 2010 21:08 roMAD wrote:On May 20 2010 21:07 KristianJS wrote:
Awesome, thanks for the translation!
I'm not too sure about this statement though: "The upcoming finals match will discern who this season’s true best player is."
If Flash wins OSL then he's this seasons best player irrespective of what happens in the MSL, but anyway. I'm hyped as hell for this final!! I disagree. If Jaedong wins in the finals against FlaSh AGAIN, he will be the better player in my eyes. LoL, no. If flash wins OSL he is the man, whatever the MSL result is. And why is that? Getting 2 consecutive OSL's > 2 consecutive MSL's, where he loses to the same person in the finals twice? Amazing logic of FlaSh fans Ummm, 2 Golds + 2 Silvers is a lot better than 2 Golds. And Flash's proleague results this season are much better than JD's as well. Honestly I think you'd have a hard time justifying your statement.. You are missing the point that FlaSh actually loses to Jaedong twice in the finals. How that doesn't prove that Jaedong is a better player? No. If you want to say that JD beat Flash and thus he's a better player, you have to look at the OSL. Flash beat JD in the OSL once, and JD lost to Baby who eventually lost, ultimately to Flash. In the end, JD never had the ability to make the last two OSL finals, while Flash did. I'm not saying that Flash is a better player than JD. However, you can't use that logic and say that JD is a better player. Who is the better player will be determined at the next finals... because this hopefully will be a fair and straightforward match that won't have any family drama/heater drama. Then we can see Flash at his peak vs JD at his peak... and this should be the ultimate test.
If Jaedong beats Flash in the finals, I'll be ready to crown his ass and say Jaedong > Flash. Two straight MSL final victories over Flash is enough to make me say JD > Flash at the highest level.
Plus, with your logic, I can say Hyuk > Jaedong. Jaedong > Flash, so Hyuk > Flash. No one would ever try to make that argument. (Except maybe on Blue Storm).
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This Jaedong fanboyism is getting out of hand. I really want to like him and cheer for good close games in MSL, but some people are making it extremely hard. Lets take a look at some facts, shall we?
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ignore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
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Jaedong has all week to look at VODs.
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On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
This Jaedong fanboyism is getting out of hand. I really want to like him and cheer for good close games in MSL, but some people are making it extremely hard. Lets take a look at some facts, shall we?
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ignore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
yes and this is what makes him a favorite, that does not make him better. Jaedong still has one HELL of a chance. I cannot see flash autowinning, but if jaedong does win, it does mean he is stronger in Bo5 against flash.
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On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
This Jaedong fanboyism is getting out of hand. I really want to like him and cheer for good close games in MSL, but some people are making it extremely hard. Lets take a look at some facts, shall we?
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ignore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
Thou speak'st aright, young grasshopper!
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On May 21 2010 12:16 Enderbantoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
This Jaedong fanboyism is getting out of hand. I really want to like him and cheer for good close games in MSL, but some people are making it extremely hard. Lets take a look at some facts, shall we?
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ignore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really? yes and this is what makes him a favorite, that does not make him better. Jaedong still has one HELL of a chance. I cannot see flash autowinning, but if jaedong does win, it does mean he is stronger in Bo5 against flash.
I'm not arguing against that! I just disagree with this BO5 overwriting everything else, which many people here suggest.
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got his ass whooped in PL right after MSL? He basically had it in the bag until he forgot consume....
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On May 21 2010 12:20 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 12:16 Enderbantoo wrote:On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
This Jaedong fanboyism is getting out of hand. I really want to like him and cheer for good close games in MSL, but some people are making it extremely hard. Lets take a look at some facts, shall we?
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ignore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really? yes and this is what makes him a favorite, that does not make him better. Jaedong still has one HELL of a chance. I cannot see flash autowinning, but if jaedong does win, it does mean he is stronger in Bo5 against flash. I'm not arguing against that! I just disagree with this BO5 overwriting everything else, which many people here suggest.
Personally, I think BO5s matter most in this situation since we're looking at who's going to win in a BO5 in a league final, but deciding best player? Nah. I mean, I think they matter a lot since it is when the pressure is ON, and when it matters most.
But anyway, aside from that, an interesting thing:
In individual leagues, Flash>Jaedong in BO3s, every single one.
In BO5s, Jaedong>Flash, every single one.  c-c-c-craaaaaaazy.
Although, in BO1s, they're 1:1 in individual leagues.
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On May 21 2010 12:24 Ideas wrote:
got his ass whooped in PL right after MSL? He basically had it in the bag until he forgot consume....
Maybe you should read that sentence again, I simply stated that JD lost in the ace match, which he did. In the OSL, on the other hand, it was rape which would make mentaly weaker players cry in the corner.
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On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who had two MUs over 2300. Heck, he had EVERY MU over 2300. He had TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
elo is very overrated... what we have now is a larger pool of much worse players, thus resulting in higher points for players in good shape
flash's current competition: free, kal, baby, great, mvp, midas, sea (current power rank)
jaedong on his prime had to face: bisu, stork, fantasy, best, ggplay, hwasin (10/15/2008 power rank)
On May 21 2010 12:08 adelarge wrote:
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played easily under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
actually JD vs flash in bo5 is 3-0 for jaedong (3-1, 3-0, 3-1)...
yes, flash is in better shape right now imo, but imo it is clear who the overall better player is
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If Jaedong beats Flash convincingly, he is the better player, imo.
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There's a lot of "what ifs" being thrown around this thread. Let's just wait and see what happens...
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On May 21 2010 00:01 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 23:30 Waxangel wrote:whoa,  Shine and RorO helped out JD? That's some pretty decent help! Can Shine get some love now please, from grateful JD fans? fuck shine in his stupid face >: 3 i blame him for having to sit through FLASH VS... movie? instead of STORK
Try blaming Stork for playing like shit.
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Flash fanboys are getting way out of hand, what if he loses in both leagues?
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If Jaedong gets another gold over Flash that means he's the better player in the context of their own personal rivalry. I think even Flash would have to admit that.
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I can't believe we've reached a point where a player reached four out of the last four finals and people are trying to come up with ways to discredit him.
Here's the list of other people who made as many finals in their ENTIRE CAREER than Flash made in the last two seasons. There's a good chance you'll recognize a lot of them, and for good reason:
Nada
Savior
Oov
Jaedong
Boxer
Yellow*
Bisu
Stork
Reach
Nal_Ra
July
Chojja
* only one to never win, poor guy
Oh and Flash is 51-9 in Proleague, 54-9 if you include the Winners League finals. He's also beaten pretty much every single top player at least once in Proleague. Look at that record again: 54-9!!!!!
Nobody is denying that Jaedong is an incredible player. He has now made 6 finals in his career I believe he's the greatest of all time already. He's also made a final in 4 straight seasons and I believe 6 out of the last 8? Or is it 6 out of the last 7? It's simply incredible what Jaedong has done. But nobody has ever dominated to the degree Flash is dominating right now, for as long as Flash has dominated at this level. Flash fans simply want that to be acknowledged is all.
Jaedong is really great - if he's not already the GOAT he will be shortly. Nobody should try to discredit his incredible career accomplishments, as well as how well he has played lately.
But similarly people should stop downplaying what Flash has done in the past 8 months, even if he loses both finals (which I highly doubt).
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
=.=
Smix look what you have done...
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On May 21 2010 08:37 bearbuddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 04:05 tree.hugger wrote:The Department of Team Liquid Security has released it's monthly fanboy activity report. Player watch: Bisu Fans: In HidingsAviOr Fans: Blue  Flash Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Jaedong Fans: Rampaging (Argument advisory) Team WatchACE Fans: We're all ace fans!CJ Fans: ExcitableeSTRO fans: Disappointed.Hite SPARKYZ Fans: Missing, presumed extinct.Hwaseung OZ fans: See above: "Jaedong fans"KT Rolster fans: See above: "Flash fans"MBC Fans: WorryingSamsung KHAN Fans: Resigned.SKT T1 Fans: Blending in (Argument advisory lifted) STX Soul Fans: NormalWemade FOX Fans: Unsure.Woongjin Stars Fans: Realpenguin (and Grobyc!) are doing fine, thank you. I thought excitement in CJ means (-_-) gold post, though.
CJ fans: (-_-)
SuperArc: Excitable
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On May 21 2010 13:53 BarneyEX wrote:
Flash fanboys are getting way out of hand, what if he loses in both leagues?
Then Flash would have 2 SL golds and JD would have 6.
Would be hard to put Flash as #1 in PR if that was the case (especially since a lot of the fans arguments is that Flash has been good over a certain amount of time which they determine to be relevant... fact is in the last 31 games, as someone said earlier, they are equal in w/L)
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Oh god, he raped Shine / Roro while practices
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EPT
